Nolvadex - Tamoxifene Citrate - Libido Enemy

[monsterbox]

I remember my first havoc cycle very clearly. The main thing I remember was how amazing the cycle was and how TERRIBLE pct felt. I retained all my strength and size with nolvadex and dodged gyno, however I had ZERO sex drive whatsoever. NO libido. Immediately at starting nolvadex. I've read many other have experienced this too with nolvadex. I became really lethargic, depressed, emotional along with the sex drive loss. Almost felt demasculated. It made PH not worth it at all.

Then I ran havoc again with OTC reversitol PCT and felt perfect.

Now i've been reading that nolvadex can upregulate prolactin significantly in some people. In fact, with some progestins like tren, nolvadex can induce prolactin gyno.

Now, too the point:

Is it soley the upregulation of prolactin that is associated with Nolvadex/Tamoxifene Citrate equal the cause of the terrible libido/depression experienced by a significant percentage of users? I'm trying to understand WHY nolvadex kills libido. I really don't believe its the blocking of estrogen that kills the libido.

IF this is the case. Why not run bromocriptine, l-dopa or something of that nature with nolvadex any time nolvadex is utilized. Would this not counteract the sex drive loss?

 

[Lacradocious]

These things are so subjective because a lot of people are running multiple products in post cycle therapy. I honestly think if you are running an AI in PCT, then this is the cause of no libido.

Nolvadex binds to estrogen receptors, so that the increased estrogen at the end of a cycle doesn't interact with the receptor. So the goal of the SERM is to bind up those receptors until ESTROGEN (and Test) levels reach natural levels. Running an AI with a SERM defeats the purpose of the SERM, because the AI is actually hindering your body from reaching a natural, non gynecomasta inducing level of estrogen.

So I think there may be 2 symptoms from running a AI with a SERM:

1. You defeat the purpose of the SERM because you are not allowing estrogen levels to reach homeostasis prior to discontinuing the SERM. Just as the receptor becomes unbound, estrogen spikes upward when the AI is discontinued , leaving the receptors vulnerable to this sudden surge of estrogen.

2. You are very well lowering Estrogen to the point that it is killing your libido.

If you used Nolvadex without an AI, then I think there are 2 things to consider:

1) Does research grade liquid Nolvadex vs. prescription Nolvadex have slightly different set of sides?

2) Maybe Nolvadex dosed in higher ranges causes a loss in libido. Its intended use is at 20 MG daily to prevent recurrence of breast cancer, and 20-40 to actually treat cancer. I wonder if many are dosing it higher than needed, especially if the research stuff is varies in strength per dosage.

I thought I read that men with breast cancer respond very favorably to treatment with SERMS compared to women. I would venture a guess to say that 20 milligrams a day split in two doses, is enough to bind up the receptors for PCT.

Web MD shows a loss of libido as one of the side effects reported for men taking it. I find it odd that people report toremifene helps libido, but tamoxifen decreases it when they both have the same mechanism of action.

So if Nolvadex can lower libido in of itself, running an AI with it is going to be a double whammy.

It seems logical to me not to run an AI with a SERM, especially ramping up the dosage. The SERM is meant to block the receptor, and the PCT should last long enough for Test and Estrogen to return to homeostasis so that when the receptor becomes unbound by the SERM, it is exposed to a normal amount of both hormones.

The SERM protects the receptor from Estrogen, so it is completely asinine to throw your estrogen levels out of whack when coming off the SERM.

This of course, is just my opinion and I may be wrong, but it makes sense to me.

 

[The_Reverend]

The PCT which seems to work best for me is a low dose Clomid for 3 to 4 weeks followed by Sustain Alpha. It had me back in no time; even after a 12 week Test E cycle.

 

[Marsh11]

Monster maybe you got bunk nolvadex? I say that because I ve used for all my cycles and I know many people on here have with a lot of success. I ve seen you talk about how your nolva wasnt good to you quite a few times. Is there a posibility yours was bunk? Obvi everyone is different

 

[monsterbox]

no way its bunk. Got it from a canadian pharmacy. Comes in tablet form with instruction, chemical formulas stuff, directions, health concerns etc...

I know it was real because I popped a pill after pct a few weeks later because I had slightly itchy nipples (I think in my head) and it murdered my sex drive for the entire day and night

 

[crazyfool405]

These things are so subjective because a lot of people are running multiple products in post cycle therapy. I honestly think if you are running an AI in PCT, then this is the cause of no libido. i disagree that running an AI in PCT is the problem

Nolvadex binds to estrogen receptors, so that the increased estrogen at the end of a cycle doesn't interact with the receptor. So the goal of the SERM is to bind up those receptors until ESTROGEN (and Test) levels reach natural levels. Running an AI with a SERM defeats the purpose of the SERM, because the AI is actually hindering your body from reaching a natural, non gynecomasta inducing level of estrogen. Estrogen will remain the same while on nolva, and while you androgen levels increase there will be natural aromatization occuring (and because nolva is not an AI, it leaves more flowing estrogen in the body so when you discontinue it will "flood" the receptors) making estrogen levels still not optimal

So I think there may be 2 symptoms from running a AI with a SERM:

1. You defeat the purpose of the SERM because you are not allowing estrogen levels to reach homeostasis prior to discontinuing the SERM. Just as the receptor becomes unbound, estrogen spikes upward when the AI is discontinued , leaving the receptors vulnerable to this sudden surge of estrogen. see my above posts, i feel that the SERM is the culprit for that

2. You are very well lowering Estrogen to the point that it is killing your libido. when using an AI its important for a low dose in the beginning of the cycle, higher estrogen then test when the cycle is over will keep u shut down so you want to lower estrogen a little while raising test, making a much more favoroable ratio.

If you used Nolvadex without an AI, then I think there are 2 things to consider:

1) Does research grade liquid Nolvadex vs. prescription Nolvadex have slightly different set of sides?

2) Maybe Nolvadex dosed in higher ranges causes a loss in libido. Its intended use is at 20 MG daily to prevent recurrence of breast cancer, and 20-40 to actually treat cancer. I wonder if many are dosing it higher than needed, especially if the research stuff is varies in strength per dosage. According to ALR in the chemical enhancement PDF, high doses of nolva can keep you shut down by the over stimulation of DHEA by the adrenals and aromatizing to estrogen

I thought I read that men with breast cancer respond very favorably to treatment with SERMS compared to women. I would venture a guess to say that 20 milligrams a day split in two doses, is enough to bind up the receptors for PCT. anywhere from 5-20 mg works well, its finding what works for you.

Web MD shows a loss of libido as one of the side effects reported for men taking it. I find it odd that people report toremifene helps libido, but tamoxifen decreases it when they both have the same mechanism of action. toremefene is chloro tamoxifen, changing the chemical make up of anything can alter how it reacts in the body (just like when you add a methyl group to EQ)

So if Nolvadex can lower libido in of itself, running an AI with it is going to be a double whammy. not at the right doses

It seems logical to me not to run an AI with a SERM, especially ramping up the dosage. The SERM is meant to block the receptor, and the PCT should last long enough for Test and Estrogen to return to homeostasis so that when the receptor becomes unbound by the SERM, it is exposed to a normal amount of both hormones. i addressed this above i believe

The SERM protects the receptor from Estrogen, so it is completely asinine to throw your estrogen levels out of whack when coming off the SERM.your estrogen levels will still be higher then norm with the discontinuence of the SERM IMO

This of course, is just my opinion and I may be wrong, but it makes sense to me.

took me a while, but read the bolded.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

IMO. OTC PCT if applicable.

If a serm is chosen.
99% of the time- Clomid and an AI........


Phock the rest.


my 2 pennies.

 

[AUTO]

its not the nolva, might be the other

 

[Problem]

I'm on nolva, and it's brining my libido back from the ****er tren x

Are you using anything along the NOLVA?

 

[crazyfool405]

I'm on nolva, and it's brining my libido back from the ****er tren x

Are you using anything along the NOLVA?

the thing is, everyones biochemistry is different and reacts different to different drugs,

different folks, different strokes (or however that saying goes.)

 

[dg806]

The way you describe the total loss of libido makes it sound like Letro, not nolva.

 

[monsterbox]

yea man...I really truly believe it was nolvadex. My latest cycle I used reversitol and felt amazing.

I mean the exact night I took 20mg of nolva, my libido was GONE. And as I dropped the dosage my libido returned. Maybe I am hyper sensative to this stuff and only need 5mg of it...maybe 30-40mg shuts me down more.

I really dont think its the fact that its the mechanism of tamoxifene blocking recpetors thats causing libido loss, its the fact the nolvadex/tamox is a chemical estrogenic compound that happens to cause libido loss as a side effect.

Yes it murdered my libido like people speak of letrozole...I have a whole box of geniune Nolvadex sitting in the closet that I AFRAID to touch.

Should I just run it for a few days for fun too see if it effects me so I can prove this point?

I've heard people claim nolva kills libido and toremifene is totally different.




I might add, I do remember becoming pretty bloated during PCT. Could easily have been from creatine mono. However, doesn't nolva only block at the breast tissue...I mean maybe I had high estrogen levels everywhere else causing the loss of libido? I know it wasn't shutdown that caused the loss of libido. My last cycle was twice the dosage, although it was a week shorter, but I ran twice the dosage with OTC PCT and felt PERFECT!

 

[dg806]

Estrogen is responsible for some libido increase. Every time I ever ran 4ad, it went through the roof. Estrogen is also good for strength increases. It is not all bad believe it or not.
Now, at some point does it cause it to negatively affect libido? Not sure, someone that is an expert will need to chime in.

 

[crazyfool405]

Estrogen is responsible for some libido increase. Every time I ever ran 4ad, it went through the roof. Estrogen is also good for strength increases. It is not all bad believe it or not.
Now, at some point does it cause it to negatively affect libido? Not sure, someone that is an expert will need to chime in.

i know that really elevated estrogen can cause some libido problems, same with really low, but every individual has there own limit on what they can tolerate.

Nolva really shouldnt keep you shut down (blocks estro at the hypothalmus preventing the negative feedback loop) but the increas in DHEA which converts to estrogen can. according to ALR

 

[monsterbox]

any more thoughts on nolva libido sides

 

[Therm]

Hey i got the similar problem. I was runnin epi like this 40/40/50/50/50 and after 3rd week my nipples start to burn from time to time. Now im on the PCT with nolva 20mg/day and alri restore 3caps/day but they are still puffy etc.. And im so depressed!!! I got no clue how to explain this to You guys but i think depressed is the right word. I have lost all my confidence feel ugly and im just so f#@$%# sad. Tomorrow ill take only restore without tamoxifen maybe this is it ;/ Any ideas?

 

[crazyfool405]

Hey i got the similar problem. I was runnin epi like this 40/40/50/50/50 and after 3rd week my nipples start to burn from time to time. Now im on the PCT with nolva 20mg/day and alri restore 3caps/day but they are still puffy etc.. And im so depressed!!! I got no clue how to explain this to You guys but i think depressed is the right word. I have lost all my confidence feel ugly and im just so f#@$%# sad. Tomorrow ill take only restore without tamoxifen maybe this is it ;/ Any ideas?

it may b wise just to take restore EOD for now, and let the SERM do its job. although if you really feel its the serm, then drop it and add in something like post cycle support to help libido and recovery as well.

 

[Therm]

it may b wise just to take restore EOD for now, and let the SERM do its job. although if you really feel its the serm, then drop it and add in something like post cycle support to help libido and recovery as well.

Do i really need to add something more to restore? Restore is suposed to be a pct product. In theory it controlls everything i need to worry about: estrogen, prolactin and cortisol. What should i add to this in Your opinion? Maybe something like novedex xt to boost up my test?

 

[crazyfool405]

Do i really need to add something more to restore? Restore is suposed to be a pct product. In theory it controlls everything i need to worry about: estrogen, prolactin and cortisol. What should i add to this in Your opinion? Maybe something like novedex xt to boost up my test?

i would add Post cycle support it will help with your libido and recovery as well.

i dont see any problem with adding novedex XT personally but some people would be against it, 1-2 caps along with the restore could work well.

 

[Problem]

Hey i got the similar problem. I was runnin epi like this 40/40/50/50/50 and after 3rd week my nipples start to burn from time to time. Now im on the PCT with nolva 20mg/day and alri restore 3caps/day but they are still puffy etc.. And im so depressed!!! I got no clue how to explain this to You guys but i think depressed is the right word. I have lost all my confidence feel ugly and im just so f#@$%# sad. Tomorrow ill take only restore without tamoxifen maybe this is it ;/ Any ideas?

did you try b6? 400mg a day. Give it a shot.

No clue why would you get puffy nipples on compounds that does not aromatize.

 

[comacho]

my libido was crappy even 3 months after PCT with toremifene.

i was talking to sethroberts from this board (smart dude), he said SERM will raise SHBG

he was right beacuse the bloodwork after 3 months showed high total test (high 700) and low free test, free test % was fine though. so it was mostly bound.

you could try SERM with something that lowers SHBG (or block i should say) divanex or proviron <<<debatable

if OTC reserva worked then good for you, keep using it then, no need to experment if you figured out what works for you

 

[crazyfool405]

my libido was crappy even 3 months after PCT with toremifene.

i was talking to sethroberts from this board (smart dude), he said SERM will raise SHBG

he was right beacuse the bloodwork after 3 months showed high total test (high 700) and low free test, free test % was fine though. so it was mostly bound.

you could try SERM with something that lowers SHBG (or block i should say) divanex or proviron <<<debatable

if OTC reserva worked then good for you, keep using it then, no need to experment if you figured out what works for you

from what i read all serms Raise SHBG to some extent. maybe some more then others, but i always incorperate an AI ( i believe only the steroidal ones lower SHBG not the non Steroidal ones) so my blood work ALWAYS came back good so im thankful for that,

but i know the guy your talking bout, ****in smart dude,