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Is Tamoxifen a must? Yeah, if you want sperm damage and reduced IGF-1

LG Sciences

LG Sciences

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This is at the 30mg in humans "Tamoxifen treatment significantly altered sperm quality in seminal and epididymal sperm. These alterations were present in testis and epididymis, and additional negative effects on the sexual accessory glands were observed."

We have always said to NOT over use tamoxifen... Oh, by the way it lowers IGF-1 and in theory should reduce muscle growth via this pathway.


Fertil Steril. 2007 Aug;88(2):452-61. Epub 2007 Apr 9.Click here to read


Effect of tamoxifen treatment on the semen quality and fertility of the male rat. Motrich RD, Ponce AA, Rivero VE. Centro de Investigaciones en Bioqu?mica Cl?nica e Inmunolog?a (CIBICI-CONICET), Departamento de Bioqu?mica Cl?nica, Facultad de Ciencias Qu?micas, C?rdoba, Argentina. [email protected]

OBJECTIVES: To determine the effects of tamoxifen treatment on the seminal quality and fertility of the male Wistar rat. DESIGN: Experimental prospective study. SETTING: Animal research and university laboratory facility. SUBJECT(S): Seventy-five-day-old male and female Wistar rats. INTERVENTION(S): Sperm quality parameters were assayed in seminal and epididymal sperm samples in control and treated rats at a dose of 0.4 mg tamoxifen/kg per day. In addition, mating studies were performed, and different fertility parameters were assayed. RESULT(S): Tamoxifen treatment significantly decreased sperm concentration and motility in seminal and epididymal sperm. Sperm viability and hypo-osmotic swelling test results were shown not to be altered. The copulatory plug was absent or severely impaired in tamoxifen-treated males. When mating experiments were performed, a significant decrease in the fertility index and increased percentages of preimplantation and postimplantation embryo loss were also observed. CONCLUSION(S): Tamoxifen treatment significantly altered sperm quality in seminal and epididymal sperm. These alterations were present in testis and epididymis, and additional negative effects on the sexual accessory glands were observed. Finally, these alterations were capable of seriously compromising fertility ability of these male rats.
 
Where the tests only taking during administration? Or where there tests taken further down the line? By chance do you have the full text? Well, I have used Tamox many times, and conceive just fine. Thank God for that.

By their math it would be paramount to me taking 40.9mgs of Tamox, and I never take more than 20mgs of Tamox Citrate, so really no more than 15mgs of real tamox.

Adams
 
I always said low dose is better. I will see if I can get the full text.

Also, we probably shouldn't tell people under 21 to use Tamoxifen since it is known to close growth plates.

Finally, the "liquid" tamoxifen that is out there is hardly dosed accurately even if the bottle contains the correct amount.

LG has always been against the over use of tamoxifen.

Check my math on this, since I am beat

400 mcg per kilogram in rats * 75kg male = 30,000 mcg however we need to divide by 6 for the rat metabolism which is only 5mg according to my math... or do we multiply by 6?
 
LegalGear said:
I always said low dose is better. I will see if I can get the full text.

Also, we probably shouldn't tell people under 21 to use Tamoxifen since it is known to close growth plates.

Finally, the "liquid" tamoxifen that is out there is hardly dosed accurately even if the bottle contains the correct amount.

LG has always been against the over use of tamoxifen.

Check my math on this, since I am beat

400 mcg per kilogram in rats * 75kg male = 30,000 mcg however we need to divide by 6 for the rat metabolism which is only 5mg according to my math... or do we multiply by 6?
Click to expand...

I've seen studies that show a marked increase in tamoxifen metabolism through a female rats liver over a human liver, but I haven't seen any quantitative numerical data. In human the half live is very long, in rats just means it would clear faster, and need to dose more frequently.

Adams
 
Also Dinoii always advocated lower dose Tamox, if any really. He likes estrogen modulators over receptor modulators. Such a I3C.

Adams
 
I used Tamoxifen 20mgs for a straight 3 months and it completely shut down my sperm production.
Got it back using clomid.
Though i`ve conceived 2 babys after that i still have to ask did i permanently damage my sperm quality?
 
You only need enough to bind up the receptors. Anything above that is pointless. It's intended use to prevent a recurrence of cancer is 20 mg daily. If 20 is enough to bind up the receptor, anything more is just going to concentrate in the blood unbound and increase sides.

Correct me if I am wrong but given a 5-7 day half life, plasma levels are going to increase each day anyway at 20 MG.
 
Good post LegalGear. I very much agree with you on how liquid SERMs aren't dosed accurately. One dose might be 20mgs while another might be 5mgs. Couple that with the fact that you have no idea if its the real deal. Best method is a script or online pharmacy.
 
The_Reverend said:
Good post LegalGear. I very much agree with you on how liquid SERMs aren't dosed accurately. One dose might be 20mgs while another might be 5mgs. Couple that with the fact that you have no idea if its the real deal. Best method is a script or online pharmacy.
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I disagree. A Research Chem company has more to lose here in the states than a foreign online pharmacy. Online pharmacies are KNOWN for sending bunk stuff. I haven't heard to many complaints of bunk research chems running around. Especially when Tamox is so damn cheap, its a cash cow.

Adams
 
DAdams91982 said:
I've seen studies that show a marked increase in tamoxifen metabolism through a female rats liver over a human liver, but I haven't seen any quantitative numerical data. In human the half live is very long, in rats just means it would clear faster, and need to dose more frequently.

Adams
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Not to mention that hepatic metabolism, and subsequent renal clearance will/would vary greatly among individuals alone.
 
Lacradocious said:
You only need enough to bind up the receptors. Anything above that is pointless. It's intended use to prevent a recurrence of cancer is 20 mg daily. If 20 is enough to bind up the receptor, anything more is just going to concentrate in the blood unbound and increase sides.

Correct me if I am wrong but given a 5-7 day half life, plasma levels are going to increase each day anyway at 20 MG.
Click to expand...

Tamoxifen is primarily used as an adjunct in the early treatment of certain breast cancers. Some breast cancers are "Hormone Sensitive", and require estrogen for their essential prolifereation. Tamox is introduced to slow the progress, while other avenues of eradication such as radiation therapy, chemotherapy, and even your immune system destroy the cancer cells.

You are correct that serum plasma levels will initially rise, however depending on an individuals heaptic metabolism, and renal clearance, it can differ with everyone.
 
DAdams91982 said:
I disagree. A Research Chem company has more to lose here in the states than a foreign online pharmacy. Online pharmacies are KNOWN for sending bunk stuff. I haven't heard to many complaints of bunk research chems running around. Especially when Tamox is so damn cheap, its a cash cow.

Adams
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I've had my share of bad experiences, which is why I bring this up. Nothing is guaranteed though.
 
I also wonder/worry how long the negative effects are noted, is it only when it is being administered, or is it permanent damage?
 
Look, I think it is overall a safe product, but it is something to be respected. If 20mg is enough (which it is) then we should stay in that range. Additionally, the research chems are pretty tough to dose for them and us I would think. Tamox doesn't stay suspended very well, so they would have to have it in an agitator for it to be equally suspended.
 
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