Question I have been wondering about..

[bigpapa]

So half way into March 09 I shall be starting my h-drol/trenadrol cycle doses will most likely be:

h-drol - 50/75/75/100/100 (or some variation)
trenadrol- 60/60/60/60 or 60/60/90/90

Now the question:
After doing research on this cycle since July, I have yet to finalize a PCT. I wanted to use Reversitol along with Clomid and Powerfull.
Would PCS or Inhibit-E be a good substitute for Reversitol?

The OTC PCT protocols i have been reading are suggesting A SERM and PCS for 4 weeks and then an AI/ATD for another 4 weeks after. Any worth in doing this? Kind of seems like to me doing another 4 weeks could add to the possibility of estrogen rebound. Any takers?

 

[Wilderbeast]

The second 4 week period of such a PCT is designed to taper down an AI in such a way that after your initial 4 week test-raising phase, you are now starting at a high dose of an AI in the first week (5th week) and tapering down to a lower dose in the 4th week (8th week) to prevent estogen rebound after cessation of the AI.

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

Clomid weeks 1-4

Post Cycle Support weeks 2-5

If you want to run a AI(not sure if it is really needed with this cycle)weeks3-6 tapering the dose down each week. Good luck bro.

 

[bigpapa]

Clomid weeks 1-4

Post Cycle Support weeks 2-5

If you want to run a AI(not sure if it is really needed with this cycle)weeks3-6 tapering the dose down each week. Good luck bro.

so pembroke...all mighty person of knowledge who always helps me...u think clomid, PCS and Powerfull will be enough of a PCT?

 

[delsolrob]

I bet your libido will suck throughout that PCT (especially if you added an AI)...I would throw some DTH in there if you want to keep your libido at all!

also, beware of emotional sides of clomid...running high doses of clomid have been associated with bodybuilders crying like little girls:whiner:

clomid is great at stimulating the HPTA though! some people use it to jumpstart PCT and then switch over to nolva or torem.

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

so pembroke...all mighty person of knowledge who always helps me...u think clomid, PCS and Powerfull will be enough of a PCT?

I think that is plenty enough of a pct for this cycle.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

I think that is plenty enough of a pct for this cycle.

yes sir...........sound advice. PCS is good stuff. A good hit of PFull before bedtime.


As far as cloey goes.

100mg ED tops. No need to go higher. Maybe, maybe a 3 day hit.

50mg ED for 4 weeks will probably suffice with this cycle. Really depends on quality of said serm.

One may just say your PCT will be better than the cycle

I would hit the trenadrol at 90mg. Strength off the hook from the feedback.

Looks like you have done your homework.

I would throw some B-6/P-5-P in the mix, maybe have some Restore or Prolactin control on hand. Just in case.

My 2 pennies.

 

[crazyfool405]

so pembroke...all mighty person of knowledge who always helps me...u think clomid, PCS and Powerfull will be enough of a PCT?

grab some ATD and Run it EOD at 50mg during the PCT as well, and youll be set!!!

Powerful may not even be nessecary unless prolactin becomes an issue,

 

[Kristofer68SS]

grab some ATD and Run it EOD at 50mg during the PCT as well, and youll be set!!!

Powerful may not even be nessecary unless prolactin becomes an issue,

I agree......

I believe PFull, Somnidren GH, Bulletproof and the likes are a little prolactin insurance DURING cycle.


Food for thought.

 

[bigpapa]

I agree......

I believe PFull, Somnidren GH, Bulletproof and the likes are a little prolactin insurance DURING cycle.


Food for thought.

well i was considering running P5P on cycle. clomid i wasnt going to go higher than maybe 75mgs. so PCS is really the **** eh? i read awesome reviews on it but i wasnt sure if it would be good enough for a cycle like this. any more opinions from anyone would be greatly appreciated. i have 4 more months until i run the actual cycle so keep'em comin.

 

[crazyfool405]

well i was considering running P5P on cycle. clomid i wasnt going to go higher than maybe 75mgs. so PCS is really the **** eh? i read awesome reviews on it but i wasnt sure if it would be good enough for a cycle like this. any more opinions from anyone would be greatly appreciated. i have 4 more months until i run the actual cycle so keep'em comin.

on 100mg of clomid i felt like i could run through a brick wall **** first. i liked it.

 

[bigpapa]

on 100mg of clomid i felt like i could run through a brick wall **** first. i liked it.

hahaha sweet dude

 

[hardknock]

I agree......

I believe PFull, Somnidren GH, Bulletproof and the likes are a little prolactin insurance DURING cycle.


Food for thought.

I haven't had the chance to look into bullet proof since the pre-release discussion so I probably missed the obvious but how would bf help control prolactin?

 

[celc5]

Just a few random comments on the suggestions:

PowerFull is good to have on hand for prolactin control, especially with trenadrol. It helped for me when I started the PowerFull right away.

I've used B6 to help with prolactin symptoms. I had no negative effects from the B6 and it worked well. I personally see no reason to spend the extra cash on p5p.

Not all AI's instigate poor libido. IME all AI's except ATD and ADED enhance my libido very strongly. I love 6oxo, bulk trione, bulk formestane, and even hyperdrol.

If I were in your shoes, I'd run 6oxo or trione with PCS for pct for this particular stack. If you feel the tren shut you down and need the extra boost to get things back on track, then Clomid/ AI is probably the ticket.

 

[delsolrob]

one of the reasons that we like to use p-5-p is that B6 converts to p-5-p in the liver and there can be some other negative sides of mega dosing B6.

just one less thing for the liver to process and you can have a greater dose without the adverse effects

 

[delsolrob]

Any time you suppress estrogen too much you will sacrifice libido...

 

[Kristofer68SS]

I haven't had the chance to look into bullet proof since the pre-release discussion so I probably missed the obvious but how would bf help control prolactin?

GH and Prolactin have an inverse relationship.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/muscle-pharm/103649-bullet-proof-faq.html

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Just a few random comments on the suggestions:

PowerFull is good to have on hand for prolactin control, especially with trenadrol. It helped for me when I started the PowerFull right away.

I've used B6 to help with prolactin symptoms. I had no negative effects from the B6 and it worked well. I personally see no reason to spend the extra cash on p5p.

Not all AI's instigate poor libido. IME all AI's except ATD and ADED enhance my libido very strongly. I love 6oxo, bulk trione, bulk formestane, and even hyperdrol.

If I were in your shoes, I'd run 6oxo or trione with PCS for pct for this particular stack. If you feel the tren shut you down and need the extra boost to get things back on track, then Clomid/ AI is probably the ticket.

I must agree on all parts.

To be really safe, a serm is "recomended".

 

[bigpapa]

I must agree on all parts.

To be really safe, a serm is "recomended".

o im definately going to run a SERM. i'll be getting clomid for this possibly dosing 75/50/50/25...what do you all think of stoked! was thinking of adding this. does it compare to PCS? possibly better?

 

[crazyfool405]

o im definately going to run a SERM. i'll be getting clomid for this possibly dosing 75/50/50/25...what do you all think of stoked! was thinking of adding this. does it compare to PCS? possibly better?

stoked and PCS are the same.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

stoked and PCS are the same.

X2!

 

[celc5]

Any time you suppress estrogen too much you will sacrifice libido...

Have you aggressively dosed the AI's that I recommended? I suggest that you try 600mg of 6oxo, 4-6 caps of Hyperdrol, or 200mg of TD formestane. I'd be surprised if your libido wasn't absolutely rediculous right along with excellent estogen control.

 

[crazyfool405]

Have you aggressively dosed the AI's that I recommended? I suggest that you try 600mg of 6oxo, 4-6 caps of Hyperdrol, or 200mg of TD formestane. I'd be surprised if your libido wasn't absolutely rediculous right along with excellent estogen control.

i totally agree!!!

 

[hardknock]

Have you aggressively dosed the AI's that I recommended? I suggest that you try 600mg of 6oxo, 4-6 caps of Hyperdrol, or 200mg of TD formestane. I'd be surprised if your libido wasn't absolutely rediculous right along with excellent estogen control.

Im guessing he's speculating on "destroying" estrogen rather than controlling it.

 

[hardknock]

GH and Prolactin have an inverse relationship.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/muscle-pharm/103649-bullet-proof-faq.html

Thanks....

I was thinking about assault when I wrote that, which I why i was like, huh? wtf?

 

[bigpapa]

so what would be better on cycle for prolactin control...P5P or PowerFull?

 

[Kristofer68SS]

so what would be better on cycle for prolactin control...P5P or PowerFull?

I would say p-5-p during the day
PFull at pre-slumber.

If your on a budget, p-5-p is cheaper.

PFull will help sleep, muscle pumps and GH release.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/usp-labs/101332-usplabs-powerfull-f.html#post1486376

 

[Problem]

Im guessing he's speculating on "destroying" estrogen rather than controlling it.

x2.

All you need is clomid, no need for an AI.

Clomid + PCS/I3C + b6/vitex and you are all set. why waste money on AIs and such when clomid works already as an anti estrogen.

If anything, 25mg of ATD week 3 of pct for 3 weeks. that worked great for me.

my .02 cents

 

[crazyfool405]

x2.

All you need is clomid, no need for an AI.

Clomid + PCS/I3C + b6/vitex and you are all set. why waste money on AIs and such when clomid works already as an anti estrogen.

If anything, 25mg of ATD week 3 of pct for 3 weeks. that worked great for me.

my .02 cents

the AI in the beginning will help the hypothalmus recover instead of staying supressed for a few days while test levels raise and create a more favorable ratio

 

[Problem]

the AI in the beginning will help the hypothalmus recover instead of staying supressed for a few days while test levels raise and create a more favorable ratio

Clomid will take care of that as it works as an anti-estrogen.

 

[crazyfool405]

Clomid will take care of that as it works as an anti-estrogen.

i dont think clomid lowers estrogen levels,

it has mixed isomers.

 

[delsolrob]

there is not a "need" to run an AI in addition to a SERM.

Clomid is one of the best SERMs for stimulating the HPTA.

I don't believe that ATD is a good choice for an AI for PCT...if I'm not mistaken it has the potential to be suppressive.

 

[crazyfool405]

there is not a "need" to run an AI in addition to a SERM.

Clomid is one of the best SERMs for stimulating the HPTA.

I don't believe that ATD is a good choice for an AI for PCT...if I'm not mistaken it has the potential to be suppressive.

in very high doses, not at 50mg.

ATD is Great stuff, but people go overkill on it.

i personally feel an AI is needed in my PCT. i dont like running a SERM alone, no matter what compound.

 

[delsolrob]

yeah, everyone has their preferences!

and, without bloodwork there isn't a cut and dry "right way".

 

[Problem]

i dont think clomid lowers estrogen levels,

it has mixed isomers.

Ofcourse it does.

 

[crazyfool405]

Ofcourse it does.

just like nolva does? because i dont believe these SERMs really lower estrogen to any really signifigant amount if at all. they just displace estrogen.

 

[HEARTLESS]

yeah, everyone has their preferences!

and, without bloodwork there isn't a cut and dry "right way".

oh how true this is and thats what sucks about it

 

[Problem]

just like nolva does? because i dont believe these SERMs really lower estrogen to any really signifigant amount if at all. they just displace estrogen.

Why do you wanna lower estrogen too much though? You just want to control it and restore your HPTA post cycle. Not destroy your estrogen.

That's why i prefer nolva for its stronger anti-estrogenic effects.

If i'm not wrong, clomid acts like an estrogen as well and it binds to the receptor leaving estrogen unactive.

 

[crazyfool405]

Why do you wanna lower estrogen too much though? You just want to control it and restore your HPTA post cycle. Not destroy your estrogen.

That's why i prefer nolva for its stronger anti-estrogenic effects.

If i'm not wrong, clomid acts like an estrogen as well and it binds to the receptor leaving estrogen unactive.

doesnt bind as tightly as nolva but works faster.

estrogen will keep the hypothalmus supressed, which is why i ALWAYS employ an AI in PCT

 

[Problem]

doesnt bind as tightly as nolva but works faster.

estrogen will keep the hypothalmus supressed, which is why i ALWAYS employ an AI in PCT

Oh, so SERMS supress the hypothalmus now hu? LOL, i thought bodybuilders used them to kickstart HPTA. :thumbsup:

:trout:


They act as anti estrogens at the hypothalamus and oppose the negative feedback of estrogen and as a result stimulate LH.

 

[crazyfool405]

Oh, so SERMS supress the hypothalmus now hu? LOL, i thought bodybuilders used them to kickstart HPTA. :thumbsup:

:trout:


They act as anti estrogens at the hypothalamus and oppose the negative feedback of estrogen and as a result stimulate LH.

i think your mis understanding what i am saying.

they keep the estrogen level the same, and high estradiol will keep the body supressed, so its best to attack from all angles and use SERMs as well as AIs, to minimize the amount of estradiol in the body.

and being that SEMRs raise SHBG, AIs will lower it, and AIs also increase LH and FSH in men. so it also speeds recovery.

 

[Problem]

i think your mis understanding what i am saying.

they keep the estrogen level the same, and high estradiol will keep the body supressed, so its best to attack from all angles and use SERMs as well as AIs, to minimize the amount of estradiol in the body.

and being that SEMRs raise SHBG, AIs will lower it, and AIs also increase LH and FSH in men. so it also speeds recovery.

SERMs lower estrogen. Anyway, I'm with you in using an AI in PCT, but in a low dose. I will use some for my next cycle with the SERM and see the difference. :thumbsup:

 

[crazyfool405]

SERMs lower estrogen. Anyway, I'm with you in using an AI in PCT, but in a low dose. I will use some for my next cycle with the SERM and see the difference. :thumbsup:

show me a study that shows they lower E2 levels, the only SERM ive seen to do that is TOREM.

all others seem just to displace.

 

[Problem]

show me a study that shows they lower E2 levels, the only SERM ive seen to do that is TOREM.

all others seem just to displace.

Does it really need a study to prove that?

Nolvadex does not decrease estrogen production and that it simply blocks estrogen receptors by binding to it.

It lowers estrogen by leaving it unactive. estrogen + no receptor to bind to = useless estrogen.

 

[crazyfool405]

Does it really need a study to prove that?

Nolvadex does not decrease estrogen production and that it simply blocks estrogen receptors by binding to it.

It lowers estrogen by leaving it unactive. estrogen + no receptor to bind to = useless estrogen.

but its still there is what i am trying to say... it doesnt lower it is DISPLACES it.