Progestin Gyno and Clomid Questions
- 10-09-2008, 07:51 AM
Progestin Gyno and Clomid Questions
I'm curious about something and want to get a handle on this.
After a progestin cycle, I assume that test levels are low and estrogen levels are high. A SERM would block the estrogen from reaching the receptors in the breast tissue. At the same time, there is a possibility for progestin induced gyno due to the stimulation of progesterone receptors. This is where the clomid comes in. Apparently it has the ability to block estrogen and progesterone? P-5-P / cabergoline would be used after gyno starts to appear, however, I'm not too concerned with treating gyno after it starts, but rather how to prevent it in the first place. Thoughts? If you quote a reliable source, please be sure to document it with a link. Thanks
I suppose my question is this:
How does clomid prevent progestin gyno? Clomid also will prevent Estrogen gyno as well and will restore natural test.
Here's what lifting stud had to say ("Tren" Designer Information / Write-Up (taken from page 2 and 3)
Progesterone : Its not so much progesterone that we watch, which is actually a healthy hormone, but progestins which may act upon its receptors. Progestins, like Tren or Deca (nor-9's), may act on its receptor or lower progesterone in the blood. Gyno and lactating are more common side effects. Some people use progesterone receptor blockers to combat this, or a prolactin production inhibitor.
Progesterone — influences the growth in size of alveoli and lobes. Progesterone levels drop after birth. This triggers the onset of copious milk production.
Prolactin — contributes to the increased growth of the alveoli during pregnancy.
Role of Progesterone in causing gyno:
Progesterone is found in both males and females. It is a precursor to many important hormones in men and women. In women it plays a role in pregnancy and in breast growth. In men, excessive progesterone can stimulate breast growth, like it does with women. While Estrogen is normally the cause of gynecomastia under normal physiological conditions, Tren and other similiar steroids stimulate the progesterone receptors because they are not only anabolic steroids, but also of a class called progestins. Progestins are the synthetic forms of steroids structurally similiar to progesterone, that have the ability to bind to the progesterone receptor too. Deca and Anadrol also are progestins, but they also aromotize to estrogen, unlike Tren. Some bodybuilders coin the term “progesterone gyno”, to explain gyno from progestin steroids.
Progesterone Gyno Controversy:
There is a major debate among bodybuilders on this entire topic. Some believe that progesterone causes the gyno in Tren users. Others believe it is actually prolactin, the hormone responsible for lactation and breast growth during a women’s pregnancy. This may explain why some experience lactating on tren cycles. Others believe it is a combination of estrogens and either prolactin or progesterone, working all synergistically to develop gyno.
Who is right?
Many Research studies I’ve seen, show that estrogen plays a synergistic role with progesterone, prolactin, and in gynecomastia. Although some bodybuilders say it’s the prolactin or progesterone directly causing it, there is NO studies to show gyno can develop without high levels of estrogen. Even IGF-1 and Growth hormone has been shown in studies to play a crucial synergistic role in the development of breast tissue. So I believe no matter what kind of steroid you take, lowering estrogen with anti-estrogens and avoiding stacking Tren with aromatizing steroids, is how you really prevent “Progesterone gyno”. With very low levels of circulating estrogen, it appears impossible or very difficult for progesterone gyno to develop.
Lilopristone, Onapristone: These are progesterone blockers also, said to be safer and possibly more effective than RU-486 when it comes to progesterone blocking. They were developed after RU-486 in an attempt to make more effective, less harsh drugs to block progesterone.
Dostinex (Cabergoline), Bromo (Bromocriptine), B-6 : These are used for Deca/Tren gyno sides. This type of gyno is related to progesterone and its receptors. Tren/Deca may act on the progesterone receptor, as they are progestins, and may increase prolactin in the blood (causing lactating). These drugs stop production of prolactin at the pituitary gland. Controlling estrogen levels with an AI also helps here, as progestins themsleves haven't been proven to cause gyno.
RU-486 (Mifepristone - abortion pill) : This drug has the ability to block estrogen, progesterone AND cortisol. It may or may not be very well tolerated, but I would like to find out more about it, as it is used in the bodybuilding world. In PCT it is used to block cortisol and progesterone. A powerful drug that may turn out to be a good choice, but i need more evidence and feedback from experience useing RU-486. Check out this thread i have going if you would like to learn more about it :
RU-486 - Mifepristone (abortion pill) - Anabolic Steroids - Steroid.com / Anabolic Review Forums
- 10-09-2008, 02:08 PM
bump i would like to know this too i found this study
Effect of clomiphene citrate on serum prolactin in infertile women with ovarian dysfunction.
Seki K, Seki M, Okumura T, Huang K.
Serum prolactin (PRL) levels were determined by radioimmunoassay in 12 normal, menstruating women and in 26 infetile women with ovarian dysfunction for one cycle or for about 30 days in amenorrheic women. Galactorrhea was not observed. No significant change in serum PRL levels was observed throughout the normal, menstrual cycle. Of the 26 patients with ovarian dysfunction, seven showed PRL levels higher than normal. Twelve of the 26 patients were treated with clomiphene citrate (Clomid), 100 mg, daily for 5 days. Ovulation occurred in seven, and pregnancy was achi-ved in two of them. Serum PR;, follicle-stimulating hormone, and luteinizing hormone were measured for a preceding control cycle and during the cycle following Clomid treatment in the 12 patients. The serum PRL levels were normal during the control cycle in five of the patients who ovulated with Clomid and high in four patients who failed to ovulate. Although serum PRL levels were not significantly changed by Clomid in the patients who ovulated with the drug, they were markedly decreased during and immediately after Clomid treatment in patients who failed to ovulate with Clomid.
i'm not sure how relevant it is tho cuz it is ovulating women but i thought it might help
- 10-09-2008, 02:27 PM
nolva will sensitize the progesterone receptors,
i would personally use clomid with any progestin cycle as well as anycycle where there is 5a reductace inhibition because that seems to be the problem with designers, superdrol and gyno/prolactin. epi and prolactin, phera and prolactin..... they all have the same thing in common 5a reductase inhibition.
id use Clomid and an AI on every cycle. but i would definetly not count on using clomid/nolva to reduce prolactin. for prolactin i would suggest chaste berry p5p and Ldopa.
10-10-2008, 09:33 AM
10-10-2008, 10:10 AM
10-10-2008, 11:08 AM
04-02-2009, 03:40 PM
04-02-2009, 04:45 PM
Hmm well what if you already believe you have received Progesterone Induced Gyno, how could i potentially remove it?
04-02-2009, 04:51 PM
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04-02-2009, 04:57 PM
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