Did OTC PCT fail you?

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    Did OTC PCT fail you?


    I'm curious as to who here has actually stayed shutdown, gotten gyno or other post PS/PH complications while using PCS or Stoked with a good OTC PCT in place of an actual SERM?

    If so, what cycle did you run, what support supps and what PCT?

    I'm specifically looking for cases in which a GOOD OTC PCT has been in place and it hasn't worked to restart HPTA, recover libido and natty test levels.

    EDIT: Nevermind, I move it.
    Last edited by Boyders; 07-28-2008 at 12:50 AM. Reason: GASP I put this in the wrong forum. Could someone please move it?

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    Why not ask in general: Did ANY PCT fail you?

    I bet there's just as many stories of people using SERMs and still having issues after a cycle.
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    Well I'm trying to ascertain whether OTC PCT is as effective as using the real deal. Now and then you do come across someone who has used a proper PCT and still had problems but those are fairly rare

    On all these posts all I read is people telling others that they MUST have a SERM on hand and another group that doesn't want to risk further sides and hepatic issues using tamox or torem or clomid or whatever, or can't get a SERM.

    And so, I'd like enough answers to the question to establish a pattern: Does the OTC PCT work just as well as SERM PCT or not?
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    I have used nolva(SERM) alone and atd(OTC) alone(back when people thought atd was gods gift to the world). Neither PCT let me down in the sense that I had long lasting side effects or anything. I am in PCT right now and I think I have found what works best for me and most likely others. OTC + SERM PCT. Both routes have advantages and disadvantages over one another. I am running Post Cycle Support alongside nolva right now. This makes me feel ok about running nolva at a low dose so to avoid more liver toxicity and IMO enough estrogen is modulated to prevent gyno. I am also using Powerful to combat prolactin and to get the host of other benefits it provides. I am following this with a tappered AI to prevent any rebound. ALong with the AI I will be running some kind of free test booster so it will be like a PCT bridge to a NH stack. This type of PCT is a hybrid of what is recommended by the OTC promoters on this board mixed with advice from SERM fanatics.

    To answer the poll question no OTC PCT did not let me down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nolbandet102 View Post
    I have used nolva(SERM) alone and atd(OTC) alone(back when people thought atd was gods gift to the world). Neither PCT let me down in the sense that I had long lasting side effects or anything. I am in PCT right now and I think I have found what works best for me and most likely others. OTC + SERM PCT. Both routes have advantages and disadvantages over one another. I am running Post Cycle Support alongside nolva right now. This makes me feel ok about running nolva at a low dose so to avoid more liver toxicity and IMO enough estrogen is modulated to prevent gyno. I am also using Powerful to combat prolactin and to get the host of other benefits it provides. I am following this with a tappered AI to prevent any rebound. ALong with the AI I will be running some kind of free test booster so it will be like a PCT bridge to a NH stack. This type of PCT is a hybrid of what is recommended by the OTC promoters on this board mixed with advice from SERM fanatics.

    To answer the poll question no OTC PCT did not let me down.
    What AI are you planning on following up with?
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    I will probably use 6-oxo, because ATD is absolutely garbage for PCT IMO, and I'm real undecided on 6-bromo. I personally think that a pretty high dose of 6-bromo would be needed to get enough steroid like binding at androgen receptors to cause HTPA suppression that has been a topic of discussion as of late, but I don't know if I want to take the chance.
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    So not one person has had complications when using a solid OTC PCT? That's really saying a lot for AI products
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    I always suggest having a SERM on hand for any cycle period because we all react differently to these compounds. I believe that a Post Cycle Support or Stoked pct with compounds such as epi, havoc or h-drol and other such as Furazadrol or 3 ad is a safe pct.

    Have there been problems? I am sure there have like I said we all react differently to these steriods but there also has been problems with people using SERMS because of the same reason. Being prone to gyno also plays a part.

    For multiple orals or stuff like m-drol, Phera,m1t, d-drol and some of these other double or triple methyls it would not be wise to run just Post Cycle Support or Stoked but running it with a SERM can be very effective.

    It all comes down to the fact that each of us need to make our on pct choices and research what we are taking. I will leave you with this.

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    I ran a PCS SERM after stopping a Epidrol cycle due to gyno coming on while ON.
    My levels tested out OK, but I got a nice rock behind my right nipple. I'm on letro now...
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    OTC PCT= Man boobs


    I ran a 4 week cycle of Epistane(IBE) using all the supports, Had a very good cycle, never felt so good before in my life. Gains were great, energy was great, I was also stacking it with USP labs Powerfull (great Stuff) and USP labs anabolic pump(great stuff). Did some research on epistane and didn't really think it would be that harsh and that an OTC pct would cover me. By the way i was doing 1pill a day for the first 2weeks, followed by 2 pills a day for the last 2 weeks. Going into my pct I felt great.

    The Key supps in my PCT were PCS and 6-OXO everything else was just supports that I can list later if needed. I contemplated using a SERM, but I heard alot of talk about PCS being created specifically for Epistane.

    Week 1-3 of PCT= Everything was still great, no loss in gains, no gyno, still had a very good mood.

    Week 4- Did chest workout, came home from the gym, looked in the mirror and noticed Unilateral swelling, thought maybe i pulled something since this happened so quickly, but then went to sleep, and woke up with terrible pain in nips, and i then immediately knew it was gyno.

    Ordered letrozole, it arrived 2 days later and also nolva. Started letro, and about 3 days later the pain was gone, about 80% of the puffyness is still there 2 weeks later. No lump, just soft man boob puffiness. Was really pissed off for a few weeks, blaming PCS, 6 OXO, IBE. Then while laying on the bench doing struggling to get 240 up without breaking my elbows because of all the joint discomfort from the letro, it dawned on me:

    1.Normal balance of Test vs Estro: (Just numbers to simply this)
    T=100, E=60

    2. Add a PH then it looks something like this:
    T=170, so body raises E to balance things out so E=130

    3. Drop PH and use a Natty test booster
    T=120, E=130 (Natural test booster can't compete with the high level my estro was at due to using Epistane.

    4. Using a SERM would have probably prevented all this from happening since SERMs have estrogen antagonist activity in breast tissue but shows estrogen-like activity in other tissues. Meaning I could have kept some Estro where needed, but blocked it in my chest where not needed, and no over the counter drug is strong enough to really do this adequately.

    So in my attempts to try and stay OTC, I ended up getting to experience the great feelings of depression, joint discomfort, destroyed libido, a man boob, severe mood swings, and probably going to get a chance to hang out with a plastic surgeon and spend about 5grand.

    On the brighter side, at least I saved $20 bucks using OTC rather than Serming to begin with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdude08 View Post
    I ran a 4 week cycle of Epistane(IBE) using all the supports, Had a very good cycle, never felt so good before in my life. Gains were great, energy was great, I was also stacking it with USP labs Powerfull (great Stuff) and USP labs anabolic pump(great stuff). Did some research on epistane and didn't really think it would be that harsh and that an OTC pct would cover me. By the way i was doing 1pill a day for the first 2weeks, followed by 2 pills a day for the last 2 weeks. Going into my pct I felt great.

    The Key supps in my PCT were PCS and 6-OXO everything else was just supports that I can list later if needed. I contemplated using a SERM, but I heard alot of talk about PCS being created specifically for Epistane.

    Week 1-3 of PCT= Everything was still great, no loss in gains, no gyno, still had a very good mood.

    Week 4- Did chest workout, came home from the gym, looked in the mirror and noticed Unilateral swelling, thought maybe i pulled something since this happened so quickly, but then went to sleep, and woke up with terrible pain in nips, and i then immediately knew it was gyno.

    Ordered letrozole, it arrived 2 days later and also nolva. Started letro, and about 3 days later the pain was gone, about 80% of the puffyness is still there 2 weeks later. No lump, just soft man boob puffiness. Was really pissed off for a few weeks, blaming PCS, 6 OXO, IBE. Then while laying on the bench doing struggling to get 240 up without breaking my elbows because of all the joint discomfort from the letro, it dawned on me:

    1.Normal balance of Test vs Estro: (Just numbers to simply this)
    T=100, E=60

    2. Add a PH then it looks something like this:
    T=170, so body raises E to balance things out so E=130

    3. Drop PH and use a Natty test booster
    T=120, E=130 (Natural test booster can't compete with the high level my estro was at due to using Epistane.

    4. Using a SERM would have probably prevented all this from happening since SERMs have estrogen antagonist activity in breast tissue but shows estrogen-like activity in other tissues. Meaning I could have kept some Estro where needed, but blocked it in my chest where not needed, and no over the counter drug is strong enough to really do this adequately.

    So in my attempts to try and stay OTC, I ended up getting to experience the great feelings of depression, joint discomfort, destroyed libido, a man boob, severe mood swings, and probably going to get a chance to hang out with a plastic surgeon and spend about 5grand.

    On the brighter side, at least I saved $20 bucks using OTC rather than Serming to begin with.
    Sorry to hear it bro. A serm might have stopped it might not. You never should run any cycle without having a serm on hand. Many people can do a OTC PCT just fine with epi and in your case you could not. For any cycle a SERM should be kept on hand because we all react differently to these compounds.
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    That's interesting reading bigdude. You are the first to respond negatively to OTC PCT and it sounds like you did it the right way. Thanks a lot for sharing, sorry to hear about the negs..
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    you should use a serm, i felt much better after pct when using a serm apposed to not using one..
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    I only used a non-otc pct recently on my pp cycle (liquid clomid) and i got big headaches and felt like pukin alot i had to force myself to workout, i don't get it my doses were less than normal, it got me back to normal but the otc's do that with less sides some are total crap but i got the ones most people use like formadrol, 6oxo and ES3.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pembroke3355 View Post
    Sorry to hear it bro. A serm might have stopped it might not. You never should run any cycle without having a serm on hand. Many people can do a OTC PCT just fine with epi and in your case you could not. For any cycle a SERM should be kept on hand because we all react differently to these compounds.

    would it really have made a difference? he got the serm 2 days later than if he'd had it on hand. still would've been administered after pct when the gyno popped up.

    Which raises a question... why when letro has been shown to have better gyno reducing effects does everyone say to have nolva on hand? For instance, he got gyno. reduced it with letro, then followed up with nolva. Had he just used nolva at the first sign of gyno, do you think the results would have been better? And from my understanding you cannot use both at the same time because letro takes away from the effectiveness of nolva.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erekose View Post
    I ran a PCS SERM after stopping a Epidrol cycle due to gyno coming on while ON.
    My levels tested out OK, but I got a nice rock behind my right nipple. I'm on letro now...
    Is the letro working? I'm in the same boat, only on cycle. Just started letro yesterday.
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    The letro should work for you, only bad thing is that letro sucks azz so much that i would have almost rather stayed with the gyno then go on letro. Letro sucks azz becuase your probably going to lose alot of your gains, when you tapper of the letro, your probably going to get a gyno rebound, if you suffer any injuries while on letro your recover time is extremely slower than normal. Basically on letro your a 70 year old man. Im in the process of switching over to Toremefine, It gets the libido back, but doesn't seem to have done much in the gyno reduction area (only been at 90mg for a week). And everyonce in a while i can feel the gyno rebound. That sucks bro. But i've to decided to just keep lifting and cutting, and if I don't get rid of the gyno, I'll just have surgery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdude08 View Post
    The letro should work for you, only bad thing is that letro sucks azz so much that i would have almost rather stayed with the gyno then go on letro. Letro sucks azz becuase your probably going to lose alot of your gains, when you tapper of the letro, your probably going to get a gyno rebound, if you suffer any injuries while on letro your recover time is extremely slower than normal. Basically on letro your a 70 year old man. Im in the process of switching over to Toremefine, It gets the libido back, but doesn't seem to have done much in the gyno reduction area (only been at 90mg for a week). And everyonce in a while i can feel the gyno rebound. That sucks bro. But i've to decided to just keep lifting and cutting, and if I don't get rid of the gyno, I'll just have surgery.
    Wow makes me wonder if its better to just do the real deal and screw these unstudied PH's. I'm on cycle so I'm def hope the letro doesn't screw with my gains. I'm running epi for 3 weeks at 20mg then switching to oxyguno for 3 weeks. Originally I tried nolva for a week and saw no change in what seemed like a very small beginnings of gyno (still wasn't sure), so I tried the low dose epi. Now I just noticed a pea sized lump so started letro. Why does it reduce your gains anyway, do you know? Is it cuz you feel like total azz or is there another reason? Another ? does gyno always hurt? what i have does not. I know my estro is high though, i can tell. Bloated and puffy
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    The reason why you loose your gains, is because your joints are going to be extremely dry, and your not going to be able to lift. I ran it @ 2.5mg daily though, so thats what my deal was. I got my gyno off cycle, off cycle for me is where the gyno fun began. I don't think im going to use PH's anymore, especially epistane. It's either going to be the real thing, or just USP labs products. Good luck with your PCT. What ever you do, don't OTC.
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    ohh, and by the way, gyno doesn't always hurt. Sometimes it doesn't even hurt at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdude08 View Post
    The reason why you loose your gains, is because your joints are going to be extremely dry, and your not going to be able to lift. I ran it @ 2.5mg daily though, so thats what my deal was. I got my gyno off cycle, off cycle for me is where the gyno fun began. I don't think im going to use PH's anymore, especially epistane. It's either going to be the real thing, or just USP labs products. Good luck with your PCT. What ever you do, don't OTC.

    Yeah i guess we'll see what happens... i'm ramping up to 2.5 then down again once symptoms are gone. I'll be doubling up on the bulk cissus but somehow i don't think that will cut it. Ya no otc for me thats what got me in this **** the first place.... 9 months after the fact. Thats why just cuz someone had a great cycle and pct it doesn't mean its over
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    I've gone both the SERM/OTC and OTC only routes without issues. But for stronger cycles, esspecially with these designer orals, I would rather be safe.

    OTC products might work - then again, they might not. I'm sure if the OTC products offered promise as SERM replacements, drug companies everywhere would be all over them.

    Bottom line is this:
    Choice #1) product backed by 20 years of experience in bodybuilding circles and verified by Medical Science - i.e., SERMS

    Choice #2) The latest and greatest combination of herbs designed by a supplement company and verified through a "clinical study" (most likely conducted by those selling it).

    I'm not a SERM Fanatic and I'm not an expert or forum "guru" but as a reagular thinking guy, I can tell you which one is going to be the base of my PCT's.

    Sure, I may pay the $50- + for some ground tree roots and powederized flowers and a sprinkling of some magic herb. Why not? I'm curious. But the base is going to be the right medicine for the job.
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    Why everyone tells you to "keep a SERM on hand" ? What's the benefit of a SERM when gyno occurs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Problem View Post
    Why everyone tells you to "keep a SERM on hand" ? What's the benefit of a SERM when gyno occurs?
    Tamox is an estrogen agonist and antagonist. That sounds like I'm wicked smart right? Honestly, I can't tell you what that means exactly except for this: the drug -sythetic E _will bind to Estrogen receptors in your titties and prevent the real Estrogen from doing so; thus protecting you from the negative impact of the hormone imbalance. Wont do **** for gyno that's already there so time is of the essence; hence, having it "on hand"
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    This is a good thread about letro, nolva, and gyno. about half way down

    First cycle advice, gyno on cycle?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetta View Post
    Tamox is an estrogen agonist and antagonist. That sounds like I'm wicked smart right? Honestly, I can't tell you what that means exactly except for this: the drug -sythetic E _will bind to Estrogen receptors in your titties and prevent the real Estrogen from doing so; thus protecting you from the negative impact of the hormone imbalance. Wont do **** for gyno that's already there so time is of the essence; hence, having it "on hand"
    That means if they got gyno on cycle, their "SERM on hand" will not benefit them. Correct?
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    yes it will only block the growth of it. nolva doesn't reduce estrogen, so I don't see how people can say it will reduce gyno. It might calm down some of the puffyness but that doesn't mean its actually destroying any gyno... idk though, i'm not a chemist. I don't exactly understand why letro would reverse gyno either, but apparently it does. I'm day 3 in up to 1.25mg of letro and haven't seen any change, but its early
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    letro isnt a modulator its an AI...it kills estrogen while nolva blocks it...so letro eliminates gyno...nolva halts progress

    Damn...i did a cycle of havoc a few months back

    20/20/30/30-40 for 5 weeks....got off started Nolva for 3 weeks...(libido felt like **** on nolva for sure so i quit nolva at 3 weeks)

    everything felt fine continued to take only tribulus and maca-root. At week 6-7 I noticed my nipples itches and were kinda red, so I took nolva for a day...it all went away but I have very very small lumps behind my nipples that I THINK were there before because it never hurt/itched except for one day and I think it was from me playing with them

    but regardless, I'm on a cycle now 30/30/30/30 and will be using reversitol for PCT...this is supposed to be very promising for epistane/havoc. It seems that the only people that get gyno from havoc experience it AFTER pct. Like weeks 5-6.

    My theory:
    Havoc is a test raiser and estrogen killer. People continue to keep estrogen at the same levels havoc did during PCT and taper off too quickly from their 6-oxo/atd....pct for havoc needs to be 8 weeks with OTC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    letro isnt a modulator its an AI...it kills estrogen while nolva blocks it...so letro eliminates gyno...nolva halts progress

    Damn...i did a cycle of havoc a few months back

    20/20/30/30-40 for 5 weeks....got off started Nolva for 3 weeks...(libido felt like **** on nolva for sure so i quit nolva at 3 weeks)

    everything felt fine continued to take only tribulus and maca-root. At week 6-7 I noticed my nipples itches and were kinda red, so I took nolva for a day...it all went away but I have very very small lumps behind my nipples that I THINK were there before because it never hurt/itched except for one day and I think it was from me playing with them

    but regardless, I'm on a cycle now 30/30/30/30 and will be using reversitol for PCT...this is supposed to be very promising for epistane/havoc. It seems that the only people that get gyno from havoc experience it AFTER pct. Like weeks 5-6.

    My theory:
    Havoc is a test raiser and estrogen killer. People continue to keep estrogen at the same levels havoc did during PCT and taper off too quickly from their 6-oxo/atd....pct for havoc needs to be 8 weeks with OTC.

    idk if i believe anymore that epi is really anti estrogen. maybe it is serm-like. i felt symptoms of low estrogen at the end of my first epi pulse, then show my first gyno symptoms 8+ months later. could have been there already idk, but i took nolva for a week with no change. Then since epi is supposed to be anti estrogen i'm runnin it at 20mg for a week and now a couple small hard lumps pop up while i'm on this low dose cycle. So I started letro and we'll see... but the point is how can epi be anti estrogen if I'm getting gyno on cycle.
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    are you sure your not just feeling your normal small glands?
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyrelax View Post
    Yeah i guess we'll see what happens... i'm ramping up to 2.5 then down again once symptoms are gone. I'll be doubling up on the bulk cissus but somehow i don't think that will cut it. Ya no otc for me thats what got me in this **** the first place.... 9 months after the fact. Thats why just cuz someone had a great cycle and pct it doesn't mean its over
    9 months doesn't make any sense....how can you develop gyno after 9 months of stopping a steroid...? It must be because of the way you ran your PCT?
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    are you sure your not just feeling your normal small glands?
    well if they are normal, they weren't there a week ago. I mean i felt bumps, but now its noticely bigger and harder, although still small. And i have shown signs of high estrogen, bloated, puffy. There was no pain before yesterday I felt slight pain in the right nip.
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    1678

    I ran a six week cycle of EST Methyl E. The first two weeks I stacked "E" with Propadrol. I dosed "E" on a pyramid up to 65mg. For my PCT I used:
    Weeks 1 to 4 PCS
    Week 3 Lean Xtreme 3 caps a day, until bottle finished.
    Weeks 4 to 8 Novedex XT tapered down to half cap dose.
    ZMA throughout PCT.

    Support Supps included:
    CLA, Fish oil, Multi V, Vitamin C, SAMe, Flaxseed oil, Creatine Mono, and a couple of other little odds and ends.

    For the first week and half I was really "off" emotionally feeling. I felt puffy (not from C.Mono) and crappy. I hated looking at myself in the mirror. That started to subside soon after.
    Now that my PCT is over I feel like I'm back to my old-self.
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