Oil billionaire Pickens puts his money on wind power

[Mo250]

Oil billionaire Pickens puts his money on wind power - CNN.com

 

[badbart]

Seems cool. He's is a very smart oil man so maybe hes onto something. He also wants to use natural gas to power cars.

 

[Mo250]

Looks like his plan isn't all that great

http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2008/07/11/pickens-plan-leaves-us-energy-security-blowing-in-the-wind/

 

[tonye]

think that he is pushing it because he owns the land where the wind turbines will go.
hmmmm, what will he lease it for to the US

 

[Nabisco]

Seems cool. He's is a very smart oil man so maybe hes onto something. He also wants to use natural gas to power cars.

Which is moronic. Argentina uses natural gas powered cars, and take a look at what happens when you wreck a car full of natural gas. They have a terrible safety record, and only countries who have no concern about their general population even think about using natural gas powered cars.

 

[badbart]

Which is moronic. Argentina uses natural gas powered cars, and take a look at what happens when you wreck a car full of natural gas. They have a terrible safety record, and only countries who have no concern about their general population even think about using natural gas powered cars.

Natural gas and NGVs (natural gas vehicles) have a stellar safety record which is based upon two facts:

1. The physical properties of natural gas make it safer than most other fuels.
2. The fuel systems designed for NGVs are built to stringent standards.

A Closer Look at Natural Gas

* Physical Properties: Yes, natural gas itself is a safer fuel than either gasoline or diesel fuel. It has a limited range of flammability, meaning it requires the correct mixture of air and fuel to burn—somewhere in the 5 to 15 percent range, and an ignition temperature of approximately 1100 degrees F. Compare that to gasoline and diesel fuel which both have lower concentrations of flammability and lower temperatures of ignition.

* Fuel Density: Natural gas is lighter than air. If a leak were to develop, the gas would rise and disperse through the atmosphere giving little chance for ignition. Compare that to gasoline and diesel fuel, both of which are dense liquids that tend to pool and are easily ignitable.

* Odor: Raw natural gas is odorless, so a distinctive odorant that smells very much like strong sulfur is added prior to distribution. This strong odor makes the presence of a leak very easy to detect.

* Toxicity: Natural gas is non-toxic.

A Closer Look at NGVs & Safety

Natural gas vehicles are very safe, for not only do they have all the same standard safety equipment as conventional cars (passive restraints, air bags, head restraints and anti-lock brakes), but they are subjected to the same crash safety tests as well.

Because compressed natural gas (CNG) fuel systems operate at pressures in excess of 3000 PSI, the fuel tank and associated plumbing have to be incredibly rugged and strong enough to contain that pressure. The on-board tanks are made of steel up to one half-inch thick and often wrapped in protective reinforced fiberglass sheathing. Plus, newer tanks are constructed of polymers and composites that are stronger than steel.

Contrast this with standard gasoline and diesel tanks in regular vehicles. These tanks are usually made from stamped steel shell halves, just a few sixteenths of an inch thick, that are welded or crimped together. In the event of a traffic accident, the ability of rugged, durable CNG tanks to withstand rupture or puncture certainly exceeds that of simple stamped steel.

But the safety of NGVs doesn’t just stop with the robust construction of the fuel tank. To take it a step further, most CNG systems have automatic release valves. In a situation of excessive heat or pressure build-up, the valve will open and release the gas to the atmosphere—and since it is lighter than the surrounding air, it will rise and dissipate. The low threshold is set well above ambient temperatures and the high threshold is set well below the ignition temperature of the gas. In the event of a fire, the fuel is safely evacuated from the car before it ever has a chance to catch fire. Gasoline and diesel vehicles simply can’t do that.

A manual shut-off valve also exists just downstream from the CNG tank to allow user intervention if the need arises. A neat side benefit of this valve might be the ability to use it as an anti-theft device. Shut off the fuel supply and any would-be thief wouldn’t get much further than a mile down the road and off shuts the engine. That is the epitome of clever thinking.

So fear not, the use of compressed natural gas as a motor fuel— from compression, storage and fueling to vehicle manufacturing—must meet stringent industry and government standards. And it’s all in the name of clean, efficient and utterly safe motoring.ls.
2. The fuel systems designed for NGVs are built to stringent standards.

How Safe is Natural Gas - Natural Gas Safety - Is Natural Gas Safe

 

[CDB]

Doesn't matter one whit. If CNG becomes a major fuel source for cars its price will simply rise to be comparable to that of gasoline because of the increased demand. The mix of fuels might provide some relief on gas prices, but CNG would definitely go up. And wind power is a loser. My guess is he and related interests own a lot of the land that would be used and, are making the usual error, perhaps purposeful disinformation, when it comes to wind power of judging it by how much a farm can produce rather than how much it will produce under normal conditions. A wind farm might be capable of generating X amount of power if the wind blew strong and steady all the time. But if the wind ain't blowing it's going to generate diddly ****, and it will generally always produce some fraction of its capacity, never anywhere near full.

 

[Mo250]

what about using technology to compress the air?

 

[CDB]

what about using technology to compress the air?

What air, the entire atmosphere? Tall order. I don't think wind will ever be anything but a supplement. Real fuel burns, plain and simple. Coal, oil, gas, nuclear, all the good stuff in one way ot another generates massive heat.

 

[BodyWizard]

Coal, oil, gas, nuclear, all the good stuff in one way ot another generates massive heat.

So the way to tell a good fuel is by how inefficient it is?

 

[CDB]

So the way to tell a good fuel is by how inefficient it is?

Fusion is pretty damn efficient and generates a lot of heat. But if you want to put it that way, yes. Heat is energy. If coal burned 'efficiently' it'd go up like flash paper and we'd never get anything useful out of it.

 

[bioman]

Just ad pure O2 and kerpowey.

I prefer doing Environmental Assessments on windfarms over oilfield..BUT there's a point at which one has to ask just how much of the landscape is going to be covered by windmills if we started to rely on it heavily?

 

[badbart]

Just ad pure O2 and kerpowey.

I prefer doing Environmental Assessments on windfarms over oilfield..BUT there's a point at which one has to ask just how much of the landscape is going to be covered by windmills if we started to rely on it heavily?

What do you do for a living?

 

[badbart]

I think its important to start something now to rid ourselves of dependence on foreign oil, a lot of alternative fuel ideas are not going to viable for decades. Could some one knowable list alternatives that could be used now. The ones I see are: Coal, Natural Gas, Nuclear and wind. The USA has all these in its boarders and doesn't need to rely on anyone for supply.

 

[bioman]

Biologist and Environmental Consultant.

I believe we need a core of nuke reactors supplemented by wind, NG and even tidal. I'll take a pass on coal.

 

[badbart]

Biologist and Environmental Consultant.

I believe we need a core of nuke reactors supplemented by wind, NG and even tidal. I'll take a pass on coal.

Good ideas. Can coal be made clean some how?

 

[Mo250]

out of wind, tidal and solar I think solar is the best out of the bunch and the most promising. How far can you go with tidal without damaging the ecosystem.

 

[bioman]

All relevant.

Coal can be burned cleanly..except for the massive CO2 output which currently has no standardize recapture method. It's the extraction of the coal that I really do not like..thousands of acres of disturbance per year with associated runoff etc etc.

In comparison, uranium can now be mined with directional drilling done on a one acre site. Enough material can be extracted from one acre..that one can entirely remediate..to power a city for years with no CO2 output. I'm much more comfortable with that even with the waste disposal issues.

Tidal..has years of development to be done before it's totally feasible. As far as impact..it remains to be seen but I think something could be worked out to minimize ecological damage.

 

[DAdams91982]

Germany has wind farms that powers small town almost exclusively.... does this rid of us of independence? Absolutely not, is it one step in the right direction? You bet your ass... put some solar fields out there, some wind farms... it can only help us in the long run. Because it isn't the most efficient source doesn't mean we should just keep relying on the latter.

Adams

 

[Mo250]

biofuels anyone? bio-diesel perhaps

 

[badbart]

biofuels anyone? bio-diesel perhaps

The problem is it drives up food prices. And planting more corn could cause more deforestation.

 

[bioman]

Biofuels relying on other sorts of biomass are somewhat feasible, but yeah, I agree biofuel using food sources is just stupid in light of the fact that climate change is going to play hell with our food supplies.

 

[DAdams91982]

Biofuels relying on other sorts of biomass are somewhat feasible, but yeah, I agree biofuel using food sources is just stupid in light of the fact that climate change is going to play hell with our food supplies.

HELL YEAH IT WILL!!! My corn tortilla chips are already to damn expensive.

Adams