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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    and i dont beleive jim cramer himself controlls the market. He's just an example of one of the many talking heads who influences traders, especially those with e-trade type accounts, and they in turn influence the market.


    You're clueless.


    Traders don't move the price, pension funds and mutual fund managers move the price.

    The people that follow anyone like Jim Cramer are individual investors that are a pimple on a pimple on a pimple...that's how small they are and they have NO influence on the markets. The only influence they have is on the people sitting by waiting to short the morons who go buy stock right after he recommends it in after hours trading.


    Serisouly, get a clue before you start talking about the market. You are so wrong its embarassing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    Senior, to be making making the most money they have exer made in the history of the industry they have to be getting it from somewhere, hence if their profit margins are going down in retail, which they are, they are making it up in the rest of their business ventures.

    It could be the 30% decline in the value of the dollar....but you wouldn't have clue about that anyway.

    And stock, for the most part is meaningless, look at the tech bubble. Sun micro systems was once trading at $130 a share, now it trades at $10. Stock price, like i explained earlier is determined not by rational thought and analysis, its being determined by Jim Cramer, and people who watch "the street" instead of doing their own research.

    Seriously, just stop talking. You are so wrong on so many levels that its now becoming embarrassing for you. Serisouly, just stop....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman View Post
    Traders don't move the price, pension funds and mutual fund managers move the price.
    And you think that the people that run funds, and brokers, and everybody else that trades dont watch TV? By virtue of you knowing who im talking about means that you watch television, which means that others in your field watch TV, and whether they admit it or not i feel confident in my assumption that some of their decisions are in part related to what they see on the tube, it's the nature of humans to take advice from percieved authority figures.
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  4. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    And you think that the people that run funds, and brokers, and everybody else that trades dont watch TV?



    Holy ****...


    How you can lump fund managers, who manage billions of dollar in assets with fvkcin brokers shows you have no clue what you are talking about. You are completely and utterly lost and clueless...


    By virtue of you knowing who im talking about means that you watch television, which means that others in your field watch TV, and whether they admit it or not i feel confident in my assumption that some of their decisions are in part related to what they see on the tube, it's the nature of humans to take advice from percieved authority figures.

    Jim Cramer managed at best a 450 million dollar hedge fund. Mutual fund managers control billions...they are not taking advice form Jim Cramer..its quite the opposite. Jim Cramers way of investing in stocks is based on what mutual fund managers are doing. Mainly P/E ratios, PEG and balance sheets....followed by the transitional flow of money into and out of sectors based on the business cycle. EVERYONE follows the large fund managers. Its why DARK POOLS EXIST!


    Seriosuly, stop.....You are so out of your league and don't have the slighest idea of what you are talking about. Before I gave you a fighting chance but the last 3 statements you made show that you are a competely cluess 23 year old that knows absolutely nothing about the stock market.
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    Its just painful....
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    Alright, this is going nowhere, along with being wildly off topic. So ill leave it alone, you have your thinly veiled insults, and i have my opinions, by our powers combined we make captain planet. Good day.
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    algae-based biodiesel ftw.

    Not really, I just like bioreactors but believe ethanol consumption is strictly reserved for Saturday nights.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    the prices of gas in Iran right now is about .70, your right, rediculously low.
    But wages are much lower in Iran, where annual income averages $2,600 a person, compared to $43,500 in the United States, according to a 2005 World Bank survey.
    I'd say that is pretty high for people in Iran. I'd also say that your argument is running out of steam. Maybe a good dosage of some solar power will get it going again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    Ill be flying, is there a recast? or anywhere to watch it later?
    they always put it up on the cnbc site later in the day or next day.
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    newman is right. the recent run in crude price has nothing to do with the 'talking heads' or traders. they have little to no influence in such a big market.

    this recent run (past 6 months) in crude price is primarily driven by the declining dollar. crude is a dollar denominated commodity so a weak dollar makes crude oil cheaper (comparativly) in international markets, supporting demand in places like Europe and China.
    also, a weak dollar and equities market is causing funds to shift investments into energy. crude oil is a hedge against a declining dollar for these funds.

    right now today, the investment case for buying crude oil isn't all that strong at $140/barrel, it's just other investment options stink worse at the moment, so the money is flowing into commodities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    the prices of gas in Iran right now is about .70, your right, rediculously low.
    You care to provide a reference to that one? Why don't I reference a few...

    Iranian budget deficits have been a chronic problem, mostly due to large-scale state subsidies, that include foodstuffs and especially gasoline, totaling more than $84 billion in 2008 for the energy sector alone.

    Iran ranks second in the world in natural gas reserves and third in oil reserves.[107] It is OPEC's 2nd largest oil exporter. In 2005, Iran spent US$4 billion dollars on fuel imports, because of contraband and inefficient domestic use

    Thats how they do it my friend. By bankrupting the state. And the few times they have removed the subsidies the country has broken out in riots. Not to mention the few times they have rationed gasoline with the same end result.

    And slow-mun beat me to it with the addition of average salary in Iran vs US.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabisco View Post
    Take a look at the refining companies out there and research a little thing called "Crack spread". This is the difference between the price of crude oil and the price of the commodity made from that crude oil. You want lower gas prices. Build new refineries in the United States, but Congress won't allow that. Take a stab at a little research and find out when the last refinery was built in the US, or maybe Jmh80 will feel inclined to enlighten you.


    While the US is sitting on its hands, building no new infrastructure, Saudi Arabia, Dubai and other Middle Eastern companies are spending billions of dollars upgrading their refineries to product Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel, and gasoline.
    Great post Nab.

    I'd just comment that yes - the last new refinery was in '78. We've had to debottleneck our refineries since then and actually make a bit more mogas today with less refineries than the early 80's.

    I would have said that making a current refinery bigger is much easier/faster to permit, but after reading about BP's difficulties to increase crude oil processing capability at it's Whiting, IN refinery I'm not so sure it's a whole lot easier. (The environmentalists have effectively stopped work from what I've seen. GREAT!)

    The other aspect to consider is that it's more expensive to build a brand new refinery than to make a current one bigger. You have to add the key infrastructure (cogen for steam, air, water, nitrogen) vs. just getting bigger pipe (or whatever).


    Not true that we are sitting on our hands. We are adding a 400 or 500 million $ ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel) unit to our refinery to make the 5 ppm sulfur diesel.
    (Which adds cost to a gallon...)
    I know the rest of the company's refineries in the US are adding ultra low sulfur capability somehow.

    Now - not sure we are quite adding the ULSD capacity that other countries are adding (so that they can import ULSD to the US). I've not read up on that aspect or heard that much for that matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    the prices of gas in Iran right now is about .70, your right, rediculously low.
    Again - you should read on incremental economics.

    So it's 70 cents - the refinery that makes the next gallon of gas should be getting what price for it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmh80 View Post
    Great post Nab.

    I'd just comment that yes - the last new refinery was in '78. We've had to debottleneck our refineries since then and actually make a bit more mogas today with less refineries than the early 80's.

    I would have said that making a current refinery bigger is much easier/faster to permit, but after reading about BP's difficulties to increase crude oil processing capability at it's Whiting, IN refinery I'm not so sure it's a whole lot easier. (The environmentalists have effectively stopped work from what I've seen. GREAT!)

    The other aspect to consider is that it's more expensive to build a brand new refinery than to make a current one bigger. You have to add the key infrastructure (cogen for steam, air, water, nitrogen) vs. just getting bigger pipe (or whatever).


    Not true that we are sitting on our hands. We are adding a 400 or 500 million $ ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel) unit to our refinery to make the 5 ppm sulfur diesel.
    (Which adds cost to a gallon...)
    I know the rest of the company's refineries in the US are adding ultra low sulfur capability somehow.

    Now - not sure we are quite adding the ULSD capacity that other countries are adding (so that they can import ULSD to the US). I've not read up on that aspect or heard that much for that matter.
    Agreed, and point taken. I was attempting to get across that we needed more capacity here in the US to drastically lower cost of gas at the pump. So I'd agree that expanding current refineries is a much more cost effective way than building brand new.

    As far as my knowledge goes for ULSD. It seems Saudi and some other Middle Eastern exporters are updating nearly all of their Diesel plants to hit that 5 ppm ULSD mark due to a drastic shortage in Europe (their reasoning conveyed to our company). Apparently Europe is already quite short on ULSD and demand is increasing ahead of supply over the past few years. I wasn't aware that some of the US refineries were doing the same. You learn something new everyday.
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    This is a little late, but interesting none-the-less.

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/02/bec...ion/index.html
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