What's your position on gun rights?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post
    The ability to amend it does not make it a living document. Amending the constitution does nothing to change the meaning of any part of the constitution - it either adds new material or replaces old provisions.
    actually the ability to change can in fact change what was written, hoenstly take a look at the 14th and 15th ammend. and how they basically get rid of the 3/5 compromise (in essence).

    Seems like a living document to me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    my final comment, I think many of you are missing my point, or are subjecting your own thoughts on what I am saying. All I am saying is that the second ammendment is not clear and concise. I have read what has been posted, and what courts have said, however, at the end of the day, as I have shown before the definition of militia encompasses quite a few ideas. Which in essence, makes it semantics.

    So for all you card carrying members of the NRA or those who just like to have a gun, you can all take a collective sigh of relief, as you and I both know the government will never take them away, regardless of many issues that have arisen as a result of it.

    Just out of curiosity, why do so many of you have them (directed of course at those who have said they do)? For protection? From what? How many break in or sitautions have you been involved in? Have you ever needed it? At the end of the day, I think it is foolish to assume you need one, specifically if it is a "just in case scenario" Just MHO

    Because I can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    my final comment, I think many of you are missing my point, or are subjecting your own thoughts on what I am saying. All I am saying is that the second ammendment is not clear and concise. I have read what has been posted, and what courts have said, however, at the end of the day, as I have shown before the definition of militia encompasses quite a few ideas. Which in essence, makes it semantics.

    So for all you card carrying members of the NRA or those who just like to have a gun, you can all take a collective sigh of relief, as you and I both know the government will never take them away, regardless of many issues that have arisen as a result of it.

    Just out of curiosity, why do so many of you have them (directed of course at those who have said they do)? For protection? From what? How many break in or sitautions have you been involved in? Have you ever needed it? At the end of the day, I think it is foolish to assume you need one, specifically if it is a "just in case scenario" Just MHO
    In no particular order.

    1. Shooting is fun
    2. Hunting
    3. Collecting
    4. Personal protection
    5. Because I can

    If you are comfortable having no means to defend yourself, more power to you. I am not.
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    actually the ability to change can in fact change what was written, hoenstly take a look at the 14th and 15th ammend. and how they basically get rid of the 3/5 compromise (in essence).

    Seems like a living document to me
    It strikes the old provisions entirely. It removed the 3/5 compromise - it did not change it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post
    It strikes the old provisions entirely. It removed the 3/5 compromise - it did not change it.
    actually by removing it, that changes the document as a whole, hence the living and breathing aspect
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    (just being funny here) but we do know what Freud said about men who need to have "weapons" of this magnitude?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xodus View Post
    Because I can.
    Hey thats great, I guess we can use that logic for many things
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    (just being funny here) but we do know what Freud said about men who need to have "weapons" of this magnitude?
    Actually, Freud posited that fear of weapons was a sign that a person felt sexually inadequate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    actually by removing it, that changes the document as a whole, hence the living and breathing aspect
    It didn't change the meaning of anything in the document. The 2nd means today what it meant in 1787.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    Hey thats great, I guess we can use that logic for many things
    Perhaps I should have stated 'to assist in violently overthrowing a government no longer the servant of its citizens, but the master of them.'

    Or maybe better yet, just re-read this post:

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/polit...ml#post1322632
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post
    Actually, Freud posited that fear of weapons was a sign that a person felt sexually inadequate.
    actually it is quite the opposite. in fact, men that nead weapons are trying to prove their manhood and possibly are a little smaller in a particualr region of the body
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xodus View Post
    Perhaps I should have stated 'to assist in violently overthrowing a government no longer the servant of its citizens, but the master of them.'

    Or maybe better yet, just re-read this post:

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/polit...ml#post1322632
    now you are talking. so should I expect to see you on the news soon?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post
    It didn't change the meaning of anything in the document. The 2nd means today what it meant in 1787.
    I didnt mention the 2nd in this instance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    now you are talking. so should I expect to see you on the news soon?
    Media outlets will be the first targets...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    I didnt mention the 2nd in this instance.

    Now who is arguing semantics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xodus View Post
    Media outlets will be the first targets...
    sweet, I will be keeping an eye out for you!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xodus View Post
    Now who is arguing semantics.
    what you are saying makes no sense. Since I mentioned the 14th and 15th but never the 2nd. Sorry no semantics on this issue. THank you though
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    what you are saying makes no sense. Since I mentioned the 14th and 15th but never the 2nd. Sorry no semantics on this issue. THank you though

    You state that it is a 'living, breathing document', but when someone points out an instance where it is not, you say 'I wasn't talking about THAT one'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xodus View Post
    You state that it is a 'living, breathing document', but when someone points out an instance where it is not, you say 'I wasn't talking about THAT one'
    actually you should read what I wrote.

    now, just to clear up any confusion:

    it IS a living breating document, if a new ammendment is instituted, it changes the document. Which of course makes it living and breathing. I never said that a new ammendment was ever created to change the 2nd amend. Please make sure we read to clearly understand what has been said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    actually you should read what I wrote.

    now, just to clear up any confusion:

    it IS a living breating document, if a new ammendment is instituted, it changes the document. Which of course makes it living and breathing. I never said that a new ammendment was ever created to change the 2nd amend. Please make sure we read to clearly understand what has been said.

    Yawn...
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Find the statistics that show the number of legally purchased firearms that have been used to cause a death. Far more deaths a year from alchohol, tobacco, cars, etc. Even far more deaths a year from doctor malpractice.
    Funny you mention that.

    Yesterday evening post work I was driving home when I picked a right wing talk-show on my Car radio(I live in Arizona). The broadcaster/DJ was a fierce gun proponent but he was battling hard to his own right wing listeners as to how to curtail guns going in the wrong hands in AZ.

    What is wrong hands in AZ?

    Well obviously the guns going in the hands of "people from South of the border". As it so happens there is a big chunk of people walking in to a Gun Shop, show them relevant papers(forged obviously), walk out with cache of firearms and then smuggle that cache to Mexico. So guess what free-gun-law is now giving way to Smuggling of Weapons across the border for Drug Cartel!! The Resident Cops are often outgunned, in some cases anti-tank cartridges has been used effectively piercing any form of Cavalar worn by these agencies.

    This comes from the gun proponents mind you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    my final comment, I think many of you are missing my point, or are subjecting your own thoughts on what I am saying. All I am saying is that the second ammendment is not clear and concise. I have read what has been posted, and what courts have said, however, at the end of the day, as I have shown before the definition of militia encompasses quite a few ideas. Which in essence, makes it semantics.

    So for all you card carrying members of the NRA or those who just like to have a gun, you can all take a collective sigh of relief, as you and I both know the government will never take them away, regardless of many issues that have arisen as a result of it.

    Just out of curiosity, why do so many of you have them (directed of course at those who have said they do)? For protection? From what? How many break in or sitautions have you been involved in? Have you ever needed it? At the end of the day, I think it is foolish to assume you need one, specifically if it is a "just in case scenario" Just MHO
    Ever NOT been armed in a situation where you needed it? Ever had someone break into your house?

    Ever been harrassed by psychotic individuals threatening bodily harm to you or those you care about?

    Some in government believe that THEY are the ones that decide which rights we can keep...but again - they do not give me my rights, they are mine - period. I have a right to defend myself, my family, AND my property from undue seizure, whether by criminals or a criminal government. Paranoid? How much property has been seized under the guise of law? How many houses and cars taken for victimless crimes?

    It is up to the individual to stand up for their own, and others, rights...against all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC - up to and including the very government.

    Why do I have a gun? Because I have a right to have it and it is none of your business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    actually it is quite the opposite. in fact, men that nead weapons are trying to prove their manhood and possibly are a little smaller in a particualr region of the body
    Actually it is you who are incorrect.

    In any case, your arguments continue to get weaker and weaker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    I didnt mention the 2nd in this instance.
    No but you were discussing the modern view of it earlier, so it is relevant to this discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    actually you should read what I wrote.

    now, just to clear up any confusion:

    it IS a living breating document, if a new ammendment is instituted, it changes the document. Which of course makes it living and breathing. I never said that a new ammendment was ever created to change the 2nd amend. Please make sure we read to clearly understand what has been said.
    A new amendment does not change the meaning of the document. The "living breathing" theory holds that the meanings of the provisions somehow morph as society changes. It is that twisted logic that lets liberals claim that the 8th Amendment somehow prohibits capital punishment even though capital punishment is implicitly authorized by the 5th and 7th Amendments.

    The "living breathing" theory has nothing to do with amendments, although its intellectually dishonest proponents try to tie them together in an attempt to gain credibility.
    Last edited by jrkarp; 04-24-2008 at 05:53 PM. Reason: typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post
    A new amendment not change the meaning of the document. The "living breathing" theory holds that the meanings of the provisions somehow morph as society changes. It is that twisted logic that lets liberals claim that the 8th Amendment somehow prohibits capital punishment even though capital punishment is implicitly authorized by the 5th and 7th Amendments.

    The "living breathing" theory has nothing to do with amendments, although its intellectually dishonest proponents try to tie them together in an attempt to gain credibility.
    and by credibility you mean power.
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    Since this discussion is seemingly going in circles without an end in sight. I will say that we agree to disagree.

    Take care
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    my final comment, I think many of you are missing my point, or are subjecting your own thoughts on what I am saying. All I am saying is that the second ammendment is not clear and concise. I have read what has been posted, and what courts have said, however, at the end of the day, as I have shown before the definition of militia encompasses quite a few ideas. Which in essence, makes it semantics.

    So for all you card carrying members of the NRA or those who just like to have a gun, you can all take a collective sigh of relief, as you and I both know the government will never take them away, regardless of many issues that have arisen as a result of it.

    Just out of curiosity, why do so many of you have them (directed of course at those who have said they do)? For protection? From what? How many break in or sitautions have you been involved in? Have you ever needed it? At the end of the day, I think it is foolish to assume you need one, specifically if it is a "just in case scenario" Just MHO
    Right now I'm within reach of about 7 firearms in a cabinet behind me. Reasons: Shooting is fun. Hunting is fun. Self defense. It's my right to have them.

    For the people who say "Well how many times have you needed a gun that you have to carry, the chances of something happening are slim to none." While I hope that they are right and I never have to use a firearm in self defense, I'd much rather have one with me and not need it than not have it and wish I did. It only takes one situation where you need it for your life to end. God forbid I'm ever in a public place and some loony starts to shoot people. I wont be one of the people who curl up in a ball and wait for them to come shoot me. I'd rather take an active role in weather or not my life is going to end that day.
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    I am very liberal, however I am firm believer in our constitution and therefore support the Second amendment. I believe that as long as one is a law abiding invidual without a violent criminal record, or mental illnesses I have no problem with people owning guns. My only reservations are with fully automatic assault weapons which I believe are a bit too much for most hunters and residents who want guns for sport or protection. Also the premise behind the Second Amendment which is that a government should have some fear and be able to be checked by its citizenry if it wished to devulge into a tyranny, is one reason I believe that a reasonably armed citizenry is perhaps a good thing in a democratic society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by teribleturtle View Post
    I am very liberal, however I am firm believer in our constitution and therefore support the Second amendment. I believe that as long as one is a law abiding invidual without a violent criminal record, or mental illnesses I have no problem with people owning guns. My only reservations are with fully automatic assault weapons which I believe are a bit too much for most hunters and residents who want guns for sport or protection. Also the premise behind the Second Amendment which is that a government should have some fear and be able to be checked by its citizenry if it wished to devulge into a tyranny, is one reason I believe that a reasonably armed citizenry is perhaps a good thing in a democratic society.
    Thank you for your comment - there are some liberals out there who respect the 2nd as much as the other amendments, though you are in the minority.

    You are aware that fully automatic weapons are extensively and tightly regulated by federal law, and that the "assault weapons ban" had nothing to do with machine guns, right?
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    If your allowed to carry a gun, how does that work say if your gonig to a night club, bar, college etc? is there restrictions to where you can have one on you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    This might surprise some, but I am not only a defender of the 2nd, I am one who reads it as plainly indicating an individual right to own and carry arms - and, specifically, military-grade arms; after 40 years of study and debate and argument, it is clear to me that any other rendering of the meaning misapprehends the language used, and thereby distorts the meaning.

    One point where I disagree w/ a lot o' folks: there is nothing in the 2nd Amendment that refers to sport or hunting in any way. Not that I have a problem w/ hunters or sportsmen, particularly, but politicians are always quick to assure the public that they aren't targeting hunters and sport-shooters whenever gun restrictions are proposed; they bring these up as a specific counter to 2nd Amendement concerns. That is bogus, as dishonest as Hillary's sniper attack, and intended to cloud the issue. It usually works...and it's usually hunters and sportsmen who usually help it work.
    I agree with most of the points you make, but I really dont see the purpose of an average citizen owning military grade arms. I mean for home defense I would assume that a good shotgun would be more than sufficient
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    Quote Originally Posted by teribleturtle View Post
    I agree with most of the points you make, but I really dont see the purpose of an average citizen owning military grade arms. I mean for home defense I would assume that a good shotgun would be more than sufficient
    What if you had to fight the military, ie martial law was enacted?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    If your allowed to carry a gun, how does that work say if your gonig to a night club, bar, college etc? is there restrictions to where you can have one on you?

    Here in CO, you cannot carry into establishments where alcohol is served. You must 'check your gun'.

    Courthouses, etc are obviously off-limits as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by teribleturtle View Post
    I agree with most of the points you make, but I really dont see the purpose of an average citizen owning military grade arms. I mean for home defense I would assume that a good shotgun would be more than sufficient

    This is the shotgun that I want for home defense







    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    If your allowed to carry a gun, how does that work say if your gonig to a night club, bar, college etc? is there restrictions to where you can have one on you?
    Restrictions vary by state, but all states have restrictions on carrying on college/school campuses, and most have restrictions about carrying where alcohol is served.

    No state allows carrying in a courthouse, most do not allow carrying in government buildings, and some states have restrictions about carrying in buildings with large capacities (like stadiums). Furthermore, some states allow businesses to put up signs restricting carry on that business's premises.
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    Quote Originally Posted by teribleturtle View Post
    I agree with most of the points you make, but I really dont see the purpose of an average citizen owning military grade arms. I mean for home defense I would assume that a good shotgun would be more than sufficient
    Well, we're talking about a constitutionally protected right here, so "sufficient" isn't the relevant standard.

    Would you tell someone that they can't protest in front of the courthouse because it should be sufficient to protest in the park?

    From the DC v. Heller oral argument:

    CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: What is -- what is reasonable about a total ban on possession?
    MR. DELLINGER: What is reasonable about a total ban on possession is that it's a ban only an the possession of one kind of weapon, of handguns, that's been considered especially -- especially dangerous.
    CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: So if you have a law that prohibits the possession of books, it's all right if you allow the possession of newspapers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, why do so many of you have them (directed of course at those who have said they do)? For protection? From what? How many break in or sitautions have you been involved in? Have you ever needed it? At the end of the day, I think it is foolish to assume you need one, specifically if it is a "just in case scenario" Just MHO
    Does a hemophiliac not carry blood clotting agent because the odds of a big cut are small? Does a person with severe bee allergies not carry an epipen in the city because there are so few beehives? When your wife is 7 months pregnant do you plan your travelling in advance and plot out where along the way hospitals are or do you not worry about it because she shouldn't give birth for two months? There is nothing wrong with preparedness. Particularly in areas subject to natural disasters - california, florida, lousiana, etc. When hurricanes or earthquakes strike, some portion of the population seems to think its "free shopping at other peoples homes day", and will attempt to rob homes even if people are in them, as they know the phones are out and the police can't respond to all calls


    The gun itself can do no harm, so if carried by a responsible rational individual it is harmless. It is only when it is carried by an irresponsible or irrational person that it does harm, and an irrational person can do as much damage with a car, or with many other objects. In 2001 (sorry, just picking years I can find) there were 29,573 deaths attributed to firearms. 16,869 of them were suicides. You don't need a gun to commit suicide, so lets remove those for a net of 12704 deaths

    http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/tables/frmdth.htm

    Blood poisoning killed more than twice as many people that year http://www.ritecode.com/aerobicgardening/topkill.html


    The center for disease control estimates more than 20,000 people died in 2001 from the flu.

    I count hunt for most statistics, but to me these are more than enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadof2 View Post
    This is the shotgun that I want for home defense







    YouTube - AA-12. World's deadliest shotgun!
    man, I had always thought the streetsweeper was a sweet piece, this totally outdoes it
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    Quote Originally Posted by teribleturtle View Post
    I agree with most of the points you make, but I really dont see the purpose of an average citizen owning military grade arms. I mean for home defense I would assume that a good shotgun would be more than sufficient
    This was implicit in the evaluative chain I was trying to set up for Reaper329, but he won't play, so:

    In the language and time of the drafting of the Constitution, the militia was the military equivalent of a volunteer fire department: in both cases, every able-bodied man was *expected* to turn out and take part, any time either fire or other disaster hit a community, and in the case of incursions by foreign soldiers, indians, bandits or whatever, those same able-bodied men were expected to muster - that is, grab their gun & canteen and join the rest of the men in the community: If you weren't able-bodied, had no firearm, or were too young, you didn't "pass muster", and did not take part.

    A well-regulated militia was one large enough and well-enough equipped as to be useful in a battle/defense scenario, and including a sufficient number of officers to command them effectively (or at least keep them out of trouble). Pretty simple, really. Because the militia was drawn at need directly from the civilian ranks, they all needed to have arms capable of taking the field against a serious military opponent. At the time, those old single-shot black powder rifles were the state of the military art, not antique relics which would prove to have inadequate range, damaged parts, insufficient caliber, or be too hard to aim and fire accurately in a combat situation.

    Therefore, rendering the sense of the second amendment in modern language, we get something like this:

    "The Body of the People being the last, best defense of the nation, the right of the people to own and carry arms equal to that sacred duty shall be neither restricted nor denied."

    Others may quibble w/ my recension, and I invite them to propose their own re-statement, as it's crucially important that we citizens understand the import behind the Second; we also need to understand that while it is unquestionably an individual right (and I would say, duty) to keep and bear arms, it is equally a civic obligation to the community, and to posterity - it is no less than our right and duty and obligation to feed our children, love our families, and deal squarely with the other guy: THAT is the people we are and have always been, and claiming it's "all just semantics" is at its best, pure fiction.
    Last edited by BodyWizard; 04-25-2008 at 04:34 PM. Reason: "and another thing" - and spelling. Oh, and another thing...
  

  
 

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