What's your position on gun rights?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    You think the USA is a safer country by allowing ordinary citizens to carry guns?? does it not have higher crime rates then practically every other civilized country on earth?? You guys are ridiculous. The stats don't lie.
    Gun Facts

    Banning guns is a great idea, perhaps you wouldn't have so many shootings if they were unavailable to a certain degree. Of course they can be obtained illegally but how many people would want to go down that route.

    How can you tell me gun control works. The country you're from is a prime example. Australia has not shown a decrease in gun related crimes since they have banned guns, rather violent crime is up significantly. The stats don't lie. Crime up Down Under

    NCPA - Policy Report 176 - Myths About Gun Control


  2. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    even in germany at the time the ratio of guns to people was nothing like in the US. it would actually be funny to see an attempt made

    "Governments will ask you to 'trust them' to allow gun registration, then use those registration lists to later confiscate the firearms."


    It may not happen today or tomorrow, but over time without vigilance, it certainly will.
    “Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit.”
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post
    Yes, it is a variable, but considering how many other variables there are it's impossible to make statements like the ones you make here. I could just as easily claim that things would be worse here if people didn't have the means to defend themselves.
    And that argument wont hold water since Gun laws have been around for close to 2 centuries and USA remains one of the most unsafest countries in the world(amongst the Developed Nations of course).

    Well, you are incorrect, especially in cases where the attacker is also military trained.She did not have a gun. Had she, she would be alive today.
    All speculation. You can say this, I can say that, but in the ultimate end what is true is that a trained Marine who had license to carry firearms was killed. Now you can spin it any which way you like.

    How is it fearmongering to advocate being prepared to defend oneself?
    Because you are creating a situation where you are distrustful of everyone and anyone. You are scared of "what might happen" and advocate possessing guns to curtail that. Again I repeat, no other country has this issue, what is so bad about Americans that we need to carry weapons in our own Homeland??

  4. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    and adding new anti gun laws wont make those 223 million guns suddenly disappear either.
    Fair point that.

    While I definitely see your point of view I am disappointed that you think nothing can be done. It sounds kinda very pessimistic. Almost like nothing can be done in this case. If that is true(I beleive it is not) then why are we even having a discussion on this?

    In countries that don't already have this volume of guns available would I suggest they loosen their gun laws? no. but taking the guns out of the hands of responsible citizens doesn't take them out of the hands of criminals.
    You dont have any argument to make that suggestion in the first place!

    Lets compare USA to England. In certain areas of UK even the cops dont carry weapons, simple baton works for them. And guess what crime is quite low. So why would they like to carry the weapon in the first place?

    The whole idea of carrying gun is to act as a deterrent to crime.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Saurabh View Post
    what is so bad about Americans that we need to carry weapons in our own Homeland??
    if there aren't any problems then what is the harm in carrying the gun? they don't go off by themselves. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

    Find the statistics that show the number of legally purchased firearms that have been used to cause a death. Far more deaths a year from alchohol, tobacco, cars, etc. Even far more deaths a year from doctor malpractice.

    Further gun laws will not stop the guns that are obtained illegally.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Saurabh View Post
    Fair point that.

    While I definitely see your point of view I am disappointed that you think nothing can be done. It sounds kinda very pessimistic. Almost like nothing can be done in this case. If that is true(I beleive it is not) then why are we even having a discussion on this?



    You dont have any argument to make that suggestion in the first place!

    Lets compare USA to England. In certain areas of UK even the cops dont carry weapons, simple baton works for them. And guess what crime is quite low. So why would they like to carry the weapon in the first place?

    The whole idea of carrying gun is to act as a deterrent to crime.
    Actually, if you check the statistics, you will find that gun crime has been on the rise in England, despite its draconian gun control laws.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Saurabh View Post
    And that argument wont hold water since Gun laws have been around for close to 2 centuries and USA remains one of the most unsafest countries in the world(amongst the Developed Nations of course).
    I know it doesn't hold water, and you either missed or ignored my point: comparisons between the US and other countries using crime statistics alone are useless due to the massive number of variables. This is true no matter how many times you keep repeating yourself.

    All speculation. You can say this, I can say that, but in the ultimate end what is true is that a trained Marine who had license to carry firearms was killed. Now you can spin it any which way you like.
    Did she have a license to carry a firearm? I am not aware of that. In any case, she was killed in a private residence so no license would have been required.


    Because you are creating a situation where you are distrustful of everyone and anyone. You are scared of "what might happen" and advocate possessing guns to curtail that. Again I repeat, no other country has this issue, what is so bad about Americans that we need to carry weapons in our own Homeland??
    Because there are bad people out there who do bad things. And even though you like to blame the guns for this, the guns have nothing to do with it. Bad people have always and will always exist.

    Self defense is an inalienable right of all human beings, even though many governments infringe upon this right. Here in America, our government was designed to protect our rights, self defense included. One of the means by which this right is protected is the Second Amendment.

    Freedom is a dangerous thing. Many of the "safer" countries are "safer" because their government imposed far more restrictions on their freedoms. I'm sure that without the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments, the US would be "safer." But you will not find many Americans who will trade liberty for safety in that manner.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post
    Freedom is a dangerous thing. Many of the "safer" countries are "safer" because their government imposed far more restrictions on their freedoms. I'm sure that without the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments, the US would be "safer." But you will not find many Americans who will trade liberty for safety in that manner.

    Unfortunately it is becoming more and more prevalent, esp. in these 'post 9/11'/Patriot Act days.


    If tyranny and oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
    – James Madison

    There are plenty of sheeple that are all for it. I am not one.
    “Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit.”

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Xodus View Post
    Unfortunately it is becoming more and more prevalent, esp. in these 'post 9/11'/Patriot Act days.


    If tyranny and oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
    – James Madison

    There are plenty of sheeple that are all for it. I am not one.
    There are too many sheeple if you ask me, and they are quite dangerous to our freedoms. I suggest that we ammend the Constitution to make it illegal to be a sheeple in these United States.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Dadof2 View Post
    There are too many sheeple if you ask me, and they are quite dangerous to our freedoms. I suggest that we ammend the Constitution to make it illegal to be a sheeple in these United States.

    Ok, any one that voted for Bush Sr., Baby W, or Clinton or is going to vote for McCain, Obama or Clinton leave the country immediately.
    “Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit.”

  11. you'll have to throw me out forcibly

  12. Unless Ron Paul is on the ballot I will just show up and fart on the voting machine.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Dadof2 View Post
    Unless Ron Paul is on the ballot I will just show up and fart on the voting machine.
    I'm voting for myself.
    “Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit.”

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Dadof2 View Post
    Unless Ron Paul is on the ballot I will just show up and fart on the voting machine.
    Ron Paul's foreign policy would be a disaster for the US.

    Supreme Court appointments (there will be at least 1, probably 2 made by the next president) justifies holding your nose and voting for McCain.

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

  15. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    and short of declaring guns illegal entirely and attempting to round up and collect them all, it wouldn't work out regardless.

    And attempting to round them up wouldnt work either
    I agree completely
    Mr. Supps Board Rep

  16. I don't see how the Gun Control Law advocates can continue their path or logic after the post further above by Xodus. There are so many cases of lives being saved and criminals being thwarted by law abiding citizens carrying firearms that I can't even begin to see the other side of the argument.

    For example, and I'll summarize since I don't have the articles on hand.

    FL - Two men walked into a Subway, and one pulled out a gun demanding all the money behind the counter. They also herded all the customers into a corner and demanded all their money and jewelry. One man, age 68, remained seated at his table eating his sub and refused to give them him money. He was forcibly dragged from his table and a gun was placed to his head. The criminals once again demanded his money, and he once again refused. The first criminal then proceeded to scream at him and drag him towards the bathroom in the back, while telling the 68 year old man the details of how he was going to be killed. Once the criminal got him to the hallway in the back and shoved him ahead to the bathroom, the 68 year old man (a former marine), pulled his concealed handgun and placed one shot into the criminal's forehead, killing him instantly. He then marched back into the main area of the store and rattled off three more rounds at the second criminal as the criminal attempted to make a getaway. Two of those three rounds struck home and the responding police were able to track the criminal by his blood trail.

    Without that concealed firearm, that man's life would have ended because of some punk who decided to rob a subway. Instead he stopped a crime in process, and successfully defended his own life. Who are we to take that inalienable right away from another person? The basic, simplistic right to defend one's life is not ours to take away. If you choose not to carry or own a firearm, so be it, no one is forcing you to have one. But what gives you the authority to remove that right from other people?

    With gun control laws, I would not be legally allowed to obtain a firearm for protection. Some advocates claim that I could defend my life and property with a knife or a baseball bat instead. Well look how well that worked for Redskin's safety Shaun Taylor. He had a machete, and was gunned down by some punk kid in his bedroom, in front of his wife and newborn child (kid was less than 2 years old). Now we should accept that as a fact of life? That criminals have the ability to gun us down in our homes, but we as a people cannot defend ourselves with those same tools? Thank you, but no, I'll retain my right to defend myself and my family from those that break the law.

  17. What the fck was the old man doing with a gun in a subway anyway? Its gotten to the point in the USA where you need to take a gun to your local takeaway store? your country has serious issues.

    As for Australia banning guns, do any of you actually no why the guns were banned in the first place. IT certainly has nothing to do with trying to reduce gun crime.

  18. If we didn't have the guns (anyone) there still would be crime and violence... it just would suck if only criminals could have guns...

    MB
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  19. Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    What the fck was the old man doing with a gun in a subway anyway? Its gotten to the point in the USA where you need to take a gun to your local takeaway store? your country has serious issues.
    Millions of Americans have concealed carry permits and carry firearms out of choice.

    As for Australia banning guns, do any of you actually no why the guns were banned in the first place. IT certainly has nothing to do with trying to reduce gun crime.
    Yes. It was knee-jerk panicked reactions to a couple of homicidal shooting sprees.

    Incidentally, guns are NOT banned in Australia; they are very heavily regulated.

    Fortunately I live in a country where constitutional protections at both the state and federal level prevent the government from infringing upon my rights due to a public outcry.

  20. The old man did a dumb thing trying to be a hero. When you have a gun at your head and someone asks for your wallet you give it to him. He's a stupid but very lucky guy.

    If guns were made readily available in Australia tomorrow knowone would buy one except maybe a few farmers.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    The old man did a dumb thing trying to be a hero. When you have a gun at your head and someone asks for your wallet you give it to him. He's a stupid but very lucky guy.
    What guarantee did he have that the guy wasn't going to shoot him anyway?

    If you are willing to trust a criminal with your life, go right ahead. I am not.

  22. I suppose I should point out that Norway, Finland, and Switzerland have large amounts of weapons in civilian hands and yet nowhere near the problems that we have in the USA... so perhaps the guns aren't the problem.

  23. Did you see the link i put on the first page? Switzerland was 2nd behind USA in gun crime. Yeah no similarities.

  24. He made a choice, not to let someone else take his life. That's not stupid. He didn't try to be a hero either, he just refused to bow to their demands. It wasn't until they threatened his life that he used deadly force. How is that stupid? He chose to protect his life, nothing stupid about it.

    I've lived in Australia hoss. Crimes still happen. Criminals still have guns. The Port Aurther Massacre was one of the reasons for the knee jerk gun control if I remember correctly.

    In response to him having a gun in a subway. Some states allow law-abiding citizens to apply for and receive permits to carry concealed firearms. He was legally able to carry protection with him, although it has to be concealed at all times. Some states in the US do not allow concealed carry permits. It's a matter of state regulation and the permits are heavily regulated.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    Did you see the link i put on the first page? Switzerland was 2nd behind USA in gun crime. Yeah no similarities.
    Actually, the chart is for gun deaths, not crime, and Switzerland is third, not second, which includes a high suicide rate. If a gun is unavailable for suicide, a determined person will find another means. Suicide statistics are a very weak argument for gun control.
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