What's your position on gun rights?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Saurabh View Post
    That is nothing but fear-mongering without any sound reason at all.

    Let me ask you this - If you are so worried about tyrants overrunning USA can you please name me such tyrants in last 100 years of USA history?? Maybe a couple of Presidents that took away all the civil liberties of US citizens, to such an extent that every American was thankful for having the right to gun?

    It is easy to make all these -tyrant-claims but lets hear out some concrete names/facts etc etc.



    WOW! Those are some of the most violent cities in the world and it is only amusing that you compare a USA city to a Somalian city

    Reality check time:

    a) Is LA safer than Stockholm(Sweden)? NO

    b) Is New York safer than Paris? Hell NO.

    c) Is Chicago safer than Berlin/Bonn/Stuttgart/Cologne etc etc. NO.

    d) Is an average American school/college safer than a European school/college? NO.

    e) Do more kids die due to gun firing in Tokyo/Seoul/Delhi than those in USA? NO.

    Start comparing US cities with half-decent cities of the world, specially those of 1st world country - Australia, UK, Holland, Germany etc etc. and you will see how fundamentally flawed your argument was.
    Thank you, your points are much better then mine!


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Nabisco View Post
    Wait a minute, so arming the general populace deters criminals? You wouldn't say. You bring up the VT shooting. You think those kids want guns because they are scared? Maybe a few, but I bet the majority want guns on campus, because they realize that if someone had been carrying a concealed weapon in that classroom building that day, then perhaps they could have saved lives.
    Nabisco.

    Lets take this point further. I argue that students at VT want to carry gun more out of fright, you argue that it is because had one being carrying a weapon the catastrophy could have been avoided.

    To that my first question would be - Do guns belong in school in the first place?

    My second question would be - What sets a USA school apart from the rest of the world where such incidents do not happen?

    Lastly my question would be - If you have a kid tomorrow(not sure you do/dont) would you be happier if he/she goes to the college where every student has a gun, or would you be happier if he/she goes to a colloge without guns?

    Let me know.

    Cheers.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Saurabh View Post
    My second question would be - What sets a USA school apart from the rest of the world where such incidents do not happen?
    that one is easy, the volume of guns currently out in the wild.

    Number of firearms in the US: 223 Million
    (Source: US Dept. of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Guns Used in Crime, 7/95, from ATF data)


    Quote Originally Posted by Saurabh View Post
    Lastly my question would be - If you have a kid tomorrow(not sure you do/dont) would you be happier if he/she goes to the college where every student has a gun, or would you be happier if he/she goes to a colloge without guns?

    Let me know.

    Cheers.
    I have 2 kids, waiting for #3 to be born, and i'd be more comfortable with option A, the college where all students who arent disqualified for mental, drug etc reasons carry a gun. No one, not even the football team will try to rape a girl on that campus.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Saurabh View Post
    That is nothing but fear-mongering without any sound reason at all.

    Let me ask you this - If you are so worried about tyrants overrunning USA can you please name me such tyrants in last 100 years of USA history?? Maybe a couple of Presidents that took away all the civil liberties of US citizens, to such an extent that every American was thankful for having the right to gun?

    It is easy to make all these -tyrant-claims but lets hear out some concrete names/facts etc etc.
    The fact that something has not happened yet does not mean that it will not or could not happen.

    And the mastermind of the Pearl Harbor attack had the following to say about a proposed Japanese invasion of the US:

    "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto

    WOW! Those are some of the most violent cities in the world and it is only amusing that you compare a USA city to a Somalian city

    Reality check time:

    a) Is LA safer than Stockholm(Sweden)? NO

    b) Is New York safer than Paris? Hell NO.

    c) Is Chicago safer than Berlin/Bonn/Stuttgart/Cologne etc etc. NO.

    d) Is an average American school/college safer than a European school/college? NO.

    e) Do more kids die due to gun firing in Tokyo/Seoul/Delhi than those in USA? NO.

    Start comparing US cities with half-decent cities of the world, specially those of 1st world country - Australia, UK, Holland, Germany etc etc. and you will see how fundamentally flawed your argument was.
    Those comparisons might be useful if the only difference between the US cities and the foreign ones is US gun laws. Of course, there are far more variables and the comparison is worthless.

    I will point out, though, that Chicago has the second strictest gun control laws in the US, and despite this, it is a very violent city.

  5. Washington DC our capital as well
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  6. Ok so all bickering aside what do you guys think needs to happen to reduce the gun crime in the states? If it isn't banning guns then what is it? Stricter punishments?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    Ok so all bickering aside what do you guys think needs to happen to reduce the gun crime in the states? If it isn't banning guns then what is it? Stricter punishments?
    Effective enforcement of the laws already on the books would go a long way.

    Sentencing enhancements for people convicted of violent crimes with firearms would also work, as would severe punishments for repeat offenders.

    Combating the root causes of crime (poverty, lack of education, racism, lack of opportunity) would be the most effective means of combating violent crime.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    that one is easy, the volume of guns currently out in the wild.

    Number of firearms in the US: 223 Million

    (Source: US Dept. of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Guns Used in Crime, 7/95, from ATF data)
    Basically you have answered the whole dogma right there, havent you Easy?

    The population of USA - 300 million, the number of firearms in USA - 223 million. Comes to about an arm per person really. Which other country in the world has this ratio? NONE. And which other country in the world is this unsafe? NONE. Okay maybe Zimbabwe, Israel, Middle East etc etc. But surely of all the 1st world country USA is the unsafest, inspite of gun laws. So obviously this hasnt worked, right?


    I have 2 kids, waiting for #3 to be born, and i'd be more comfortable with option A, the college where all students who arent disqualified for mental, drug etc reasons carry a gun. No one, not even the football team will try to rape a girl on that campus.
    You are going to the xtreme. If I take your analogy here you are somehow insinuating that every football player on every American college campus is raping a girl. That is hardly the case. And if there was gun that would not stop the rape anyway. Case in point, the rapes of American female soldiers inside the Armed Forces by their men counterpart. I am sure you have read many of those claims. Recently of course an American marine killed a female marine and buried her, you seriously think that American female marine was not strong enough to defend herself?? In all probability she would be carrying a gun too.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Saurabh View Post
    Basically you have answered the whole dogma right there, havent you Easy?

    The population of USA - 300 million, the number of firearms in USA - 223 million. Comes to about an arm per person really. Which other country in the world has this ratio? NONE. And which other country in the world is this unsafe? NONE. Okay maybe Zimbabwe, Israel, Middle East etc etc. But surely of all the 1st world country USA is the unsafest, inspite of gun laws. So obviously this hasnt worked, right?
    Wrong. Availability of firearms is only one of many variables at work here.



    You are going to the xtreme. If I take your analogy here you are somehow insinuating that every football player on every American college campus is raping a girl. That is hardly the case. And if there was gun that would not stop the rape anyway. Case in point, the rapes of American female soldiers inside the Armed Forces by their men counterpart. I am sure you have read many of those claims. Recently of course an American marine killed a female marine and buried her, you seriously think that American female marine was not strong enough to defend herself?? In all probability she would be carrying a gun too.
    She should have been carrying one. Women in particular are vulnerable to violent crime because they are generally physically weaker than men. A firearms allows a 100 pound woman to defend herself against a 300 pound man.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post
    The fact that something has not happened yet does not mean that it will not or could not happen.
    SO basically the whole theory of - guns against tyrants - does NOT have any factual backing. It is all a fear mongering no matter how you spin it.

    And the mastermind of the Pearl Harbor attack had the following to say about a proposed Japanese invasion of the US:

    "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
    International policies are clearly different than domestic policy. I am sure you understand that difference. It is one thing for an American not to trust a Japanese, it is completely different for an American not to trust an American. I guess you are suggesting the latter should be the case whereby Americans dont trust their fellow countrymen. Ummmmm.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post
    Wrong. Availability of firearms is only one of many variables at work here.
    It is, as you said, atleast one of the variables. It is NOT helping the situation obviously. If it had USA would be the safest country in the world, clearly it is not.

    She should have been carrying one. Women in particular are vulnerable to violent crime because they are generally physically weaker than men. A firearms allows a 100 pound woman to defend herself against a 300 pound man.
    There you go, fear mongering again.

    How do you even know what happened? I would like to think a female marine is "capable" enough of defending herself against 300 pound man no matter what. And like I said before there is a good chance she had a gun at bare, still it didnt help her, did it?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Saurabh View Post
    SO basically the whole theory of - guns against tyrants - does NOT have any factual backing. It is all a fear mongering no matter how you spin it.
    Considering that this is a country that was created in violence against tyranny, I'd say there's a factual basis for it.


    International policies are clearly different than domestic policy. I am sure you understand that difference. It is one thing for an American not to trust a Japanese, it is completely different for an American not to trust an American. I guess you are suggesting the latter should be the case whereby Americans dont trust their fellow countrymen. Ummmmm.
    I don't quite understand the point of this statement.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Saurabh View Post
    It is, as you said, atleast one of the variables. It is NOT helping the situation obviously. If it had USA would be the safest country in the world, clearly it is not.
    Yes, it is a variable, but considering how many other variables there are it's impossible to make statements like the ones you make here. I could just as easily claim that things would be worse here if people didn't have the means to defend themselves.

    There you go, fear mongering again.

    How do you even know what happened? I would like to think a female marine is "capable" enough of defending herself against 300 pound man no matter what. And like I said before there is a good chance she had a gun at bare, still it didnt help her, did it?
    Well, you are incorrect, especially in cases where the attacker is also military trained.

    She did not have a gun. Had she, she would be alive today.

    How is it fearmongering to advocate being prepared to defend oneself?

    BTW, I should point out that according to the US DOJ, privately owned firearms are used for defensive purposes against criminals over 500,000 times annually.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    Ok so all bickering aside what do you guys think needs to happen to reduce the gun crime in the states? If it isn't banning guns then what is it? Stricter punishments?
    I just think that it is important to remember this one fact:

    People who are currently using guns to commit crimes are in fact criminals. If guns were illegal they would still use guns to commit crimes. Prohibition of anything is impossible. All prohibition accomplishes is to prevent law abiding citizens to partake in that activity which is prohibited by law.

    The reasons that the US has so many gun crimes have little to do with the fact that guns are legal. The vast majority of guns that are used in crimes by criminals are guns that were obtained via illegal means. Our problems are rooted in social, moral, and economic causes. Our problem also lies in an increasingly innefective law enforcement system, specifically our prison system.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Dadof2 View Post
    I just think that it is important to remember this one fact:

    People who are currently using guns to commit crimes are in fact criminals. If guns were illegal they would still use guns to commit crimes. Prohibition of anything is impossible. All prohibition accomplishes is to prevent law abiding citizens to partake in that activity which is prohibited by law.

    The reasons that the US has so many gun crimes have little to do with the fact that guns are legal. The vast majority of guns that are used in crimes by criminals are guns that were obtained via illegal means. Our problems are rooted in social, moral, and economic causes. Our problem also lies in an increasingly innefective law enforcement system, specifically our prison system.
    Exactly. However, it is far easier and cheaper to demonize an inanimate object like a firearm than it is to address the real problem.

    Remember that evil exists only in the hearts of men. An inanimate object like a gun can be neither good nor evil.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Saurabh View Post
    Basically you have answered the whole dogma right there, havent you Easy?

    The population of USA - 300 million, the number of firearms in USA - 223 million. Comes to about an arm per person really. Which other country in the world has this ratio? NONE. And which other country in the world is this unsafe? NONE. Okay maybe Zimbabwe, Israel, Middle East etc etc. But surely of all the 1st world country USA is the unsafest, inspite of gun laws. So obviously this hasnt worked, right?
    and adding new anti gun laws wont make those 223 million guns suddenly disappear either. So adding new laws that make people who currently comply with laws have a harder time getting a gun still doesn't affect the ability of a criminal getting a gun, so is pointless. you have proved my point here that gun laws will not help at this point. Its a genie that is already out of the bottle.

    In countries that don't already have this volume of guns available would I suggest they loosen their gun laws? no. but taking the guns out of the hands of responsible citizens doesn't take them out of the hands of criminals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saurabh View Post
    Recently of course an American marine killed a female marine and buried her, you seriously think that American female marine was not strong enough to defend herself?? In all probability she would be carrying a gun too.
    apparently she wasn't strong enough to defend herself as evidenced by her death. And unless she was an officer she wouldn't have been carrying a pistol with her on her day to day rounds, only officers are issued and allowed to carry handguns.

  17. That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the
    symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.
    - George Orwell


    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
    - Thomas Jefferson, 1776


    Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed;
    as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe.
    - Noah Webster, 1787


    The said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people
    of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.
    - Samuel Adams, 1788


    What is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.
    - George Mason, 1788


    To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.
    - George Mason, 1788


    The militia is our ultimate safety. We can have no security without it.
    The great object is that every man be armed.
    - Patrick Henry


    And my personal fave:

    If tyranny and oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
    – James Madison
    “Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit.”

  18. Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post

    Combating the root causes of crime (poverty, lack of education, racism, lack of opportunity) would be the most effective means of combating violent crime.
    This i agree with. Every read Freakonomics? Make a valid point about legalising abortions and the crime rates falling dramatically over the next 15-20 years due to kids not being born into unwanted families etc. Sightly off topic but you get what i mean.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post
    Again, if you read the Parker decision, you will find a better summary of the history than I can repeat here. It clearly addresses the prefatory clause and its purpose. Prefatory clauses were very common in 18th century law, and they generally were not intended to make a statement of the entire or exclusive purpose of a law.

    Even the most liberal constitutional law scholars (such as Tribe and Dershowitz) concede that the 2nd is an individual right.
    all I am saying is read what I wrote in the first paragraph. I do not doubt how the modern world views it, however, in looking at it myself, the wording is a bit inconclusive
    Mr. Supps Board Rep

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    all I am saying is read what I wrote in the first paragraph. I do not doubt how the modern world views it, however, in looking at it myself, the wording is a bit inconclusive
    I did read it and I am familiar with the argument that you make.

    Regardless of how the modern world views it, plenty of evidence as to how it was viewed at the time it was written exists and it overwhelmingly points to an individual right.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp View Post
    I did read it and I am familiar with the argument that you make.

    Regardless of how the modern world views it, plenty of evidence as to how it was viewed at the time it was written exists and it overwhelmingly points to an individual right.
    it truly is a battle of semantics IMO
    Mr. Supps Board Rep

  22. and short of declaring guns illegal entirely and attempting to round up and collect them all, it wouldn't work out regardless.

    And attempting to round them up wouldnt work either

  23. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    and short of declaring guns illegal entirely and attempting to round up and collect them all, it wouldn't work out regardless.

    And attempting to round them up wouldnt work either

    It worked for Hitler.
    “Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit.”

  24. even in germany at the time the ratio of guns to people was nothing like in the US. it would actually be funny to see an attempt made

  25. In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
    From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend
    themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    ------------------------------
    In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to
    1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded
    up and exterminated.
    ------------------------------
    Germany established gun control in 1938 and from
    1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend
    themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
    ------------------------------
    China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to
    1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves,
    were rounded up and exterminated
    ------------------------------
    Guatemala established gun control in 1964.
    From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were
    rounded up and exterminated.
    ------------------------------
    Uganda established gun control in 1970. >From 1971
    to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded
    up and exterminated.

    ------------------------------
    Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975
    to 1977, one million educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were
    rounded up and exterminated.
    -----------------------------
    Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the
    20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
    ------------------------------
    It has now been 12 months since gun owners in
    Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be
    destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers
    more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:

    List of 7 items: Australia-wide, homicides are up
    3.2 percent Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent
    Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

    In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with
    firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens
    turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their
    guns!

    While figures over the previous 25 years showed a
    steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically
    upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their
    prey is unarmed.

    There has also been a dramatic increase in break- ins
    and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to
    explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and
    expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns.
    The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.

    You won't see this data on the US evening news, or
    hear politicians disseminating this information.

    Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and
    property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the
    law-abiding citizens.

    Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

    The next time someone talks in favor of gun control,
    please remind them of this history lesson.

    With guns, we are 'citizens'.

    Without them, we are 'subjects'.

    During World War II the Japanese decided not to invade
    America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!
    “Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit.”
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