Michael Moore's - Sicko !!!

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    Thumbs up Michael Moore's - Sicko !!!


    NEW WORLD RHINOS: MICHAEL MOORES NEW FILM !!!

    This is a must watch. It shows the reality of the American health cares system and the quality of life as opposed to France, Canada and Cuba !!!

    It was ripped onto Bit Torrent site and is up on Google video right now, but I don't know for how long.

    You can download it from Google but you need to download their their player first
    -------------------------------------------------------------

    MICHAEL MOORE'S "SICKO"

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    Oh Rhino, this is where you and I will start fighting again and we were getting along so well
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    I can't wait to see what creative editorial choices he made in this one.
    •   
       

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    I don't watch anything from him anymore.
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    I would prefer a healthcare system more like Canada's. Michael Moore sucks regardless. His one redeeming quality is that he's funny, sorta like Glenn Beck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufio View Post
    I would prefer a healthcare system more like Canada's. Michael Moore sucks regardless. His one redeeming quality is that he's funny, sorta like Glenn Beck.
    Takes himself too seriously to be funny. George Carlin or Bill Maher are more to my taste for far left comedians.
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    I like moore, but the truth for some is too inconceivable, take it for what its worth its more so an eye opener than to be taken a pure fact. Look at the editing george bush and his censorship crew are doing but noone cares about that side of the coin. Who else is looking out for the american people bush isnt.
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    Hopefully this film creates interest, and in turn people arm themselves with valid info. Instead of complaining about the editing as if it has no relevance bc they dont like one aspect of a huge problem. Like a murder who has 100 pices of evidence against him but the glove doesnt fit.........
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaks4ver View Post
    Oh Rhino, this is where you and I will start fighting again and we were getting along so well
    ...can't we still be friends ???

    I am not one for taking health advice from a fat guy and Moore certainly has his flaws,like the 911 movie, but there are some redeemable facts in his movies.

    This one shows how "volunteer" rescue workers who helped recover lower Manhattan after 911, suffering from lung aliments that were caused by the exposure to the toxic environment at ground zero.

    They are unable to find compensation from the US government specifically because they were "volunteers" and are not eligible for insurance claims !!! Talk about dis incentive to volunteer!!!

    They travel to Cuba where they can get help because in Cuba they have free universal health care !!!
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    And this is where it turns into a debate over universal healthcare leading to America turning into a socialist nation. I'm generally against increased government interference, but I think this is worth it. Look at Canada. It makes a lot more sense than affirmative action or many long-term welfare programs.
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    I think we should do it like India.

    Seperate hospitals, public and private. Public hospitals are run by the government and are free.

    Private hospitals are run by private organizations and have very little regulation. However because people could just go to a government hospiatl for free, private hospitals can only compete if their care is exemplary. Thus they actively seek to recruit the best physicians and offer the best care possible. Because of the lack of regs, they also though compete with respect to pricing.


    Many people in the US have been flying to India to have expensive surgeries done because it is extremely inexpensive there but of equal quality to the US. I read about stuff like surgeries that cost half a million dollars in the US costing only $5000-10000 in India
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    But the lack of regulation is the side of the knife that cuts when you have a bad surgery and can do nothing about it. Sometimes you get what you pay for. Our healthcare system is pissy and i have my own personal experiences and stories and i have good coverage but the thread was about Moore's films


    He may take some truth but he distorts it to fit his own agendas and doesn't have the people in mind, in my opinion. Lies and deceit are wrong no matter who it comes from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    But the lack of regulation is the side of the knife that cuts when you have a bad surgery and can do nothing about it. Sometimes you get what you pay for. Our healthcare system is pissy and i have my own personal experiences and stories and i have good coverage but the thread was about Moore's films


    He may take some truth but he distorts it to fit his own agendas and doesn't have the people in mind, in my opinion. Lies and deceit are wrong no matter who it comes from.

    Just because there is virtually no regulation doesn't mean you can't sue the hospital when the surgeon screws up. The courts however have caps on those kinds of settlements, and malpractice insurance isn't MANDATORY like in the USA. As a result in order to attract customers, malpractice insurance firms have to offer low premiums. In the US, malpractice insurance is required in order to practice medicine; this creates an artificial demand. This artificial demand coupled with uncapped lawsuits, and a system that favors frivolous lawsuits, you get drastically inflated malpractice insurance premiums. Those inflated malpractice premiums result in overinflated billing. That inflated billing results in inflated health insurance premiums. Negotiated rates that insurance companies agree to result in hospitals barely covering costs. That in turn results in bills going to uninsured people being preposterously high leaving many indebted to the hospital for the rest of their lives and in some cases, an entire family indebted to the hospital for life.

    Add into the mix a cartel with a monopoly on medical licensing and antiquated requirements to practice medicine and you've got the most screwed up healthcare system in the industrialized world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicrhino View Post
    They travel to Cuba where they can get help because in Cuba they have free universal health care !!!
    Which is the rub of the matter. Nothing is free. Someone is going to pay for it. The only question is who and how and the consequences of any particular system.
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    They travel to Cuba where they can get help because in Cuba they have free universal health care !!!

    I believe if you check this one out you will find that there are in fact two different levels of health care in Cuba. One for the elite party members and one for the masses. Separate and unequal. Be careful what you wish for. We may get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper View Post
    They travel to Cuba where they can get help because in Cuba they have free universal health care !!!

    I believe if you check this one out you will find that there are in fact two different levels of health care in Cuba. One for the elite party members and one for the masses. Separate and unequal. Be careful what you wish for. We may get it.
    It also helps if you reduce demand by throwing half your population in prison or outright killing them.
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    So lets take the 2nd most unorganized and corrupt industry and combine with the most corrupt and disorganized industry (government). Yeah, makes sense
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian View Post


    Many people in the US have been flying to India to have expensive surgeries done because it is extremely inexpensive there but of equal quality to the US. I read about stuff like surgeries that cost half a million dollars in the US costing only $5000-10000 in India
    Its a matter of money. They come to the US to be educated, then go back and practice many fields in which malpractice insurance costs and lawsuits threaten US doctors here.

    Doctors are leaving BECAUSE of more regulation, not less.

    India is actually pushing for much more regulation because its rankings and care is horrible according to the WHO. The private sector dominates their health care system and the lobbyists are keeping any type of regulation out....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufio View Post
    I would prefer a healthcare system more like Canada's.

    Virtually impossible with a population of 300 million.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian View Post
    Just because there is virtually no regulation doesn't mean you can't sue the hospital when the surgeon screws up. The courts however have caps on those kinds of settlements, and malpractice insurance isn't MANDATORY like in the USA. As a result in order to attract customers, malpractice insurance firms have to offer low premiums. In the US, malpractice insurance is required in order to practice medicine; this creates an artificial demand. This artificial demand coupled with uncapped lawsuits, and a system that favors frivolous lawsuits, you get drastically inflated malpractice insurance premiums. Those inflated malpractice premiums result in overinflated billing. That inflated billing results in inflated health insurance premiums. Negotiated rates that insurance companies agree to result in hospitals barely covering costs. That in turn results in bills going to uninsured people being preposterously high leaving many indebted to the hospital for the rest of their lives and in some cases, an entire family indebted to the hospital for life.

    Add into the mix a cartel with a monopoly on medical licensing and antiquated requirements to practice medicine and you've got the most screwed up healthcare system in the industrialized world.
    Now add that into the government bureaucracy and see what you get. You think its bad now? Just wait until they get their hands on it.
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    The libertarian position of privatized health care is all well and good for those who can afford it, but my problem is that you still end up with people who can't afford things like life-saving surgery. I'm all for less government interference in most cases, but I don't want a system where people who can't pay for adequate life-saving procedures are screwed. I don't want Social Darwinism in the field of healthcare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Now add that into the government bureaucracy and see what you get. You think its bad now? Just wait until they get their hands on it.

    India's healthcare is considered pisspoor because they have over a billion people and 900 million are living in abject poverty!!

    Their private hospitals are top notch due to increased competition brought on by lack of government interference.


    Do not however confuse this with the hospitals which receive government tax breaks. Those hospitals are regulated nearly as heavily as government ones. The best hospitals there are the truly private ones.

    I do think it's a good idea though to have SOME healthcare options that are free. I can think of no justifiable reason to leave the lower class without any healthcare solution whatsoever. And if you want to point to VA hospitals as an example of government run healthcare that's a poor example since VA hospitals in the US are outsourced to private companies. The only reason to outsource are either because they'll do it better or they'll do it cheaper. We got the opposite of both when we outsourced our VA hospitals. That's just corruption plain and simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufio View Post
    The libertarian position of privatized health care is all well and good for those who can afford it, but my problem is that you still end up with people who can't afford things like life-saving surgery. I'm all for less government interference in most cases, but I don't want a system where people who can't pay for adequate life-saving procedures are screwed. I don't want Social Darwinism in the field of healthcare.

    But that's where socialized health care has failed for the most part. They AREN'T getting adequate care or they are put on a waiting list that lasts forever.

    Theory is good, implementation in large populations is another. Small countries can handle it, larger ones simply can't...even in pure socialist and communist countries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian View Post
    India's healthcare is considered pisspoor because they have over a billion people and 900 million are living in abject poverty!!

    Their private hospitals are top notch due to increased competition brought on by lack of government interference.


    Do not however confuse this with the hospitals which receive government tax breaks. Those hospitals are regulated nearly as heavily as government ones. The best hospitals there are the truly private ones.



    I do think it's a good idea though to have SOME healthcare options that are free. I can think of no justifiable reason to leave the lower class without any healthcare solution whatsoever.



    "The private sector dominates health care in India, but inadequate legislation and failure to enforce regulations are contributing to poor quality medical services, says a World Bank publication released in New Delhi last week.

    Eighty per cent of spending on health in India is from personal funds, but existing laws do not ensure that private medical services maintain even minimum standards, says the report.

    “Powerful medical lobbies have opposed government efforts to regulate the private sector,” it says, adding that India's medical councils are not enforcing laws relating to registration and licensing of medical practitioners.

    In a section on private healthcare services the report acknowledges problems that consumer health organisations have long complained about: doctors overprescribing drugs, recommending unnecessary investigations and treatment, and failing to provide appropriate information for patients.

    It says there are no laws regulating the geographical distribution of healthcare providers and the types of technology to be made available, and it suggests that the influx of technology may have led to unreasonable use of equipment. Yet, despite such problems most people still choose the private sector, because of accessibility and shorter waiting times for diagnosis and treatment.

    Health sector analysts say the private healthcare system in India should be segmented so that the relation between quality and prices of services can be examined. “We would probably find that some private sector establishments offer excellent quality at a high price,” said Professor Subrata Chakraborty of the Indian Institute of Management, Lucknow, who analysed the private sector in India's largest state, Uttar Pradesh, for the report. “The typical consumer doesn't separate the two issues.”

    “The Indian Medical Association has consistently opposed any kind of regulation,” said Ravi Duggal, coordinator of Mumbai's Centre for Enquiry into Health and Allied Themes, a nongovernmental organisation that has been long been campaigning for minimum standards.

    A survey in Mumbai in the mid-1990s showed gross deficiencies in the quality of medical services. “There were clinics operating out of residential flats, with kitchens turned into operating theatres,” said Dr Abhay Shukla, project coordinator at the centre."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    But that's where socialized health care has failed for the most part. They AREN'T getting adequate care or they are put on a waiting list that lasts forever.

    Theory is good, implementation in large populations is another. Small countries can handle it, larger ones simply can't...even in pure socialist and communist countries.


    Then change our government to a confederacy and ditch nearly all federal spending. Let each state handle its own healthcare. States are like small countries in a confederacy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian View Post

    I do think it's a good idea though to have SOME healthcare options that are free. I can think of no justifiable reason to leave the lower class without any healthcare solution whatsoever. .
    We do have it. Its called Medicaid. Look at its track record.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian View Post
    Then change our government to a confederacy and ditch nearly all federal spending. Let each state handle its own healthcare. States are like small countries in a confederacy.

    Some do. Don't you know that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by somewhatgifted View Post
    Hopefully this film creates interest, and in turn people arm themselves with valid info. Instead of complaining about the editing as if it has no relevance bc they dont like one aspect of a huge problem. Like a murder who has 100 pices of evidence against him but the glove doesnt fit.........
    Did he mention the lack of tort reform (he has too)? Considering the Democratic party is probably 90% lawyers I don't tihnk you will be seeing that anytime soon. On goes the astronomical costs of malpractice insurance to protect from those "legit" lawsuits.

    "Democratic vice presidential nominee John Edwards, a successful trial attorney, was criticized by tort reform advocates for lawsuits that he brought against obstetricians on behalf of children who suffered severe birth injuries; reformers criticized the suits as relying on junk science, while Edwards denied the allegation. Edwards's profits from the stated lawsuits were substantial and are certainly not a subject of dispute."


    Now I know why maternity insurance is ridiculous.

    Kind of ironic you mentioned the "glove" and everything. Love those lawyers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by somewhatgifted View Post
    I like moore, but the truth for some is too inconceivable, take it for what its worth its more so an eye opener than to be taken a pure fact. Look at the editing george bush and his censorship crew are doing but noone cares about that side of the coin. Who else is looking out for the american people bush isnt.



    Bush Derangement Syndrome: the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency -- nay -- the very existence of George W. Bush.
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    I'll be the first to admit that I am naive. But I don't fully understand why Americans keep on saying they want a health care system like we have in Canada. I was under the impression that life-threatening surgeries couldn't be turned away - but are done in state hospitals.

    In Canada, state hospitals is effectively all we have. For all real "advanced" surgeries, we get sent to the States. And waiting lists here are long. I had to wait 6 months to have my hernia operated on. Other ppl are on 1 - 2 year waiting lists. If I wanted to pay more and get in faster - I couldn't. Our system is bogged down with a bunch of people that "abuse" the system. Let's just say the majority of those people are from a segment of society where taking care of yourself is not a top priority. There, that sounded PC. But these people are in the waiting rooms all the time - it's gross and annoying. I wish showers were mandatory.

    We're all equal here (except for politicians of course). Whether you work hard at your job, are homeless, or just live off the government. Considering I'm part of the working class, I do get annoyed with the free-loaders.

    I thought most companies in the States have health benefits.

    Regardless, if you want the same health care as Canada, just cut your take home pay in half. You don't get to keep the money you earned - it goes...elsewhere...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunder View Post
    I'll be the first to admit that I am naive. But I don't fully understand why Americans keep on saying they want a health care system like we have in Canada.
    Because the left wing liberal media keeps telling everyone its better. And they believe them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunder View Post
    I'll be the first to admit that I am naive. But I don't fully understand why Americans keep on saying they want a health care system like we have in Canada. I was under the impression that life-threatening surgeries couldn't be turned away - but are done in state hospitals.

    In Canada, state hospitals is effectively all we have. For all real "advanced" surgeries, we get sent to the States. And waiting lists here are long. I had to wait 6 months to have my hernia operated on. Other ppl are on 1 - 2 year waiting lists. If I wanted to pay more and get in faster - I couldn't. Our system is bogged down with a bunch of people that "abuse" the system. Let's just say the majority of those people are from a segment of society where taking care of yourself is not a top priority. There, that sounded PC. But these people are in the waiting rooms all the time - it's gross and annoying. I wish showers were mandatory.

    We're all equal here (except for politicians of course). Whether you work hard at your job, are homeless, or just live off the government. Considering I'm part of the working class, I do get annoyed with the free-loaders.

    I thought most companies in the States have health benefits.

    Regardless, if you want the same health care as Canada, just cut your take home pay in half. You don't get to keep the money you earned - it goes...elsewhere...

    And always good to hear personal experience....
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    lmao , i always get the koolaid reference when my mediocre opinions arise. Damnit id have to sit at the kids table in politican discussion land. The problem is bush is deep in a hole that it is impossible not to complain about him. hes done one thing right, he's created the perfect job a job where you cant do it worse than the last guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunder View Post

    We're all equal here (except for politicians of course). Whether you work hard at your job, are homeless, or just live off the government. Considering I'm part of the working class, I do get annoyed with the free-loaders.



    Regardless, if you want the same health care as Canada, just cut your take home pay in half. You don't get to keep the money you earned - it goes...elsewhere...


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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    Which is the rub of the matter. Nothing is free. Someone is going to pay for it. The only question is who and how and the consequences of any particular system.
    Rub this ! The USA has subsidized police and fire protection as well as the mail system, so its not completely foreign to our system of government to tax the population to provide a better life!

    Our system is better if you are young ,strong and healthy, but if you happen to become old, weak and sick there is a problem. If you don't have any money nobody wants to help you !
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    A friend of mine playes foot ball here in the states but he was brought over for soccer from Ireland. He had this big time shoulder injury that needed to have an operation. He was stunned that in the same day of his injury he had an MRI, X Ray and went home knowing what was wrong and when they were going to fix it. He said it would have taken them almost a year to get those results via "universal" health care. He said most people who get hurt playing sports are usually unable to ever return because the lag time between injury and operation makes everything worse.

    If we want to help with our older population and our inner city folks, we must cut off all those who are not legal in this country from any type of medical care. We can save millions if not billions if we ended this come on come all practice. their countries have free health care... let them go there.. because M. moore is right.. it is so much better!
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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicrhino View Post
    Rub this ! The USA has subsidized police and fire protection as well as the mail system, so its not completely foreign to our system of government to tax the population to provide a better life!
    Nor does that make it a good idea. As for the mail system, if you want the people at the DMV or the post office handling your health care, you might have issues.

    Our system is better if you are young ,strong and healthy, but if you happen to become old, weak and sick there is a problem. If you don't have any money nobody wants to help you !
    Where is it written you have a right to live forever, or even as long as is humanly possible, especially on someone else's dime? No where. If you are truly concerned about health care then you should be concerned about increasing the supply and decreasing the price of it. Nationalization will achieve the exact opposite, especially in this country where demand will very soon outstrip supply once it is 'free', or more correctly once someone else is paying the bill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by somewhatgifted View Post
    The problem is bush is deep in a hole that it is impossible not to complain about him.
    Really? Last time I checked the newly elected Congress has worse ratings but we wouldn't want the reality of health care costs to get in the way of "complaining".

    Just be careful some facts don't go flying over your head while you continue to complain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    Nationalization will achieve the exact opposite, especially in this country where demand will very soon outstrip supply once it is 'free', or more correctly once someone else is paying the bill.
    You mean you don't want to pay 65% of your income to nationalized programs? How selfish of you!

    It amazes me that the people who constantly complain about the inadequacies and complete incompetence of our government actually want them to run the health care system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicrhino View Post
    Rub this ! The USA has subsidized police and fire protection as well as the mail system, so its not completely foreign to our system of government to tax the population to provide a better life!
    Yeah, the welfare and medicaid system are prime examples of this glorious success
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