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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Warrior View Post
    Okay, stand corrected, which has happened before It's just that you usually don't have an administration allow this sort of chaos without having knowledge.

    They mentioned some students that broke into Montebello started throwing bottles because Montebello students wouldn't join. Right there was reason enough to call the police and send some kids to juvenile hall for their actions. That was insane.
    That would be just a cultural misunderstanding though, IW. Don't you know that? It's not that throwing bottles, rioting, flipping cars over and what not are bad behavior, it's just a difference in cultures and no culture is better than any other culture...

    And when the touchy feelies get on that line they always remind me of the talking heads who come on TV after someone gets ripped to pieces by a shark, and who claim we just don't understand, the shark thought the guy was a seal, or a penguin, or some other horse****. As if understanding why the shark tore someone limb from limb will put that person back together again, or will make sharks any less dangerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    That would be just a cultural misunderstanding though, IW. Don't you know that? It's not that throwing bottles, rioting, flipping cars over and what not are bad behavior, it's just a difference in cultures and no culture is better than any other culture...

    And when the touchy feelies get on that line they always remind me of the talking heads who come on TV after someone gets ripped to pieces by a shark, and who claim we just don't understand, the shark thought the guy was a seal, or a penguin, or some other horse****. As if understanding why the shark tore someone limb from limb will put that person back together again, or will make sharks any less dangerous.
    It does not put the person back together, nor does it make the shark any less dangerous in the same situation, but understanding why can in some instances avert another similar situation.

    The fact is however, that may not be directly applicable here; these were disruptive and disrespectful teenagers who in all respects desecrated your nation's symbol and should be punished accordingly. However, I am also just not prepared quite yet to extrapolate that kind of behavior to an entire population, or characterize any person as being naturally inferior compared to any other.

    If that makes me touchy feely, then **** off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    It does not put the person back together, nor does it make the shark any less dangerous in the same situation, but understanding why can in some instances avert another similar situation.
    And when you're dealing with a mindless beast who will attack a surf board because it 'thinks' it's a seal, good point. When you're dealing with human beings they should not be treated like mindless beasts who can't help but attack, riot, or pull **** like that. There is no need to understand rioters to the extent that they shouldn't be rioting. There is no need to understand gangs to the extent that they shouldn't be out banging. Period. Humans, or rather some humans, are not to be held to the standard of sharks. A higher standard is and should be expected.

    The fact is however, that may not be directly applicable here; these were disruptive and disrespectful teenagers who in all respects desecrated your nation's symbol and should be punished accordingly.
    I don't think they should be punished. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. To the point it may not apply here because of this or that particular reason I wouldn't argue; my point is desecrating the American flag should not be a crime. Though the pitiful nature of Americans, who do not stand up and through voluntary disassociation and denunciation marginalize people who do desecrate the flag, does piss me off.

    I would also say the institutional regs and laws that stop those people from demonstrating against these nitwits are a problem. Likely if a kid wore a shirt the next day that said "America, love it or leave it," he'd be asked to change clothes or leave. Likely anyone passionately voicing opposition to these pricks would be accused of racism or hate speech regardless of what came out of their mouths. How the morally deficient have gotten the moral high ground in my country I don't know, but they're there and they weild that power.

    However, I am also just not prepared quite yet to extrapolate that kind of behavior to an entire population, or characterize any person as being naturally inferior compared to any other.
    Neither necessarily am I, but neither am I going to ignore my own common sense and experience anymore for the sake of political correctness. Especially when it comes to watching anyone who is not a white male getting away with behavior and saying things that are so attrocious and disgusting, and that would in some instances land that same white male in court or even in jail these days. It's time we held everyone to the same damn standards regardless of their skin color, religion or any other classification you wish, no matter what may or may not have happened between long dead ancestors. That means a lot of victicrats here in the states need to trade in their bleeding hearts for a brain, stop behaving like gutter trash and start holding themselves accountable for their problems, not blaming them on everyone else, society, 'cultural misunderstanding' or 'the man'.

    I understand the gutter culture all too well, and I want to crush it. No apologies for it. It's ****, it's destructive, it's wasteful, it's criminal, and it deserves to die.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    And when you're dealing with a mindless beast who will attack a surf board because it 'thinks' it's a seal, good point. When you're dealing with human beings they should not be treated like mindless beasts who can't help but attack, riot, or pull **** like that. There is no need to understand rioters to the extent that they shouldn't be rioting. There is no need to understand gangs to the extent that they shouldn't be out banging. Period. Humans, or rather some humans, are not to be held to the standard of sharks. A higher standard is and should be expected.
    I would agree higher standards should obviously be held for humans, but the principle of locating the precipice, whether warranted or unwarranted, of an action within the larger social context was my intended point. A sentiment of "well these ones are doing it, so all Mexicans must be as such" was being voiced in that thread, and I simply do not agree with that. Categorizing the actions or thoughts of an entire country based on the actions and thoughts of a group of disgruntled hormone-laden teenagers is presumptious.

    I don't think they should be punished. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. To the point it may not apply here because of this or that particular reason I wouldn't argue; my point is desecrating the American flag should not be a crime. Though the pitiful nature of Americans, who do not stand up and through voluntary disassociation and denunciation marginalize people who do desecrate the flag, does piss me off.

    I would also say the institutional regs and laws that stop those people from demonstrating against these nitwits are a problem. Likely if a kid wore a shirt the next day that said "America, love it or leave it," he'd be asked to change clothes or leave. Likely anyone passionately voicing opposition to these pricks would be accused of racism or hate speech regardless of what came out of their mouths. How the morally deficient have gotten the moral high ground in my country I don't know, but they're there and they weild that power.
    I would agree that a PC culture within the United States, and by extension my country, is rather unfortunate; it is completely contradictory that those who are not astute in political manners are sanctioned by proxy to simultaneously condemn those who hold an abrasive opinion, and as you said, marginalize a group who holds an opposing one.


    Neither necessarily am I, but neither am I going to ignore my own common sense and experience anymore for the sake of political correctness. Especially when it comes to watching anyone who is not a white male getting away with behavior and saying things that are so attrocious and disgusting, and that would in some instances land that same white male in court or even in jail these days. It's time we held everyone to the same damn standards regardless of their skin color, religion or any other classification you wish, no matter what may or may not have happened between long dead ancestors. That means a lot of victicrats here in the states need to trade in their bleeding hearts for a brain, stop behaving like gutter trash and start holding themselves accountable for their problems, not blaming them on everyone else, society, 'cultural misunderstanding' or 'the man'.

    I understand the gutter culture all too well, and I want to crush it. No apologies for it. It's ****, it's destructive, it's wasteful, it's criminal, and it deserves to die.

    Believe it or not, I would fully agree with you; I am not one for abitrary categorization based on topographical, ethnic, social, or cultural lines. While, as I believe there is with every action, there was a social precipice here, the individual executes the choice to carry out any action; as such, I believe individuals should be judged void of those cultural lines.

    However, your statements are necessarily contradictory. Here you state:

    If you see a gang of El Salvadorians chopping people to pieces, and no one else is doing it, it's 'improper' to point out their nationality. If young, religiously zealous Muslims are blowing themselves up and flying planes into buildings, and no one else is doing it, it's 'improper' to point out those distinct characteristics. I don't like saying it, but more and more it's becoming clear to me that in some cases nationality, race, and religion are reliable standards of judgement as to whether or not I want to associate with someone, or even want them within 50 yards of me.
    On one hand, you state a desire for the levelling of cultural, social, religious judgement, and on the other, state at times it is necessary. Which is it? We cannot manipulate culturally determinant factors for 'justice' whenever we see fit.

    I am not justifying their behaviour based on the social climate of immigration in your country at this time; in fact, I am doing quite the opposite in condemning their actions. I am stating that if we are to judge individuals as individuals we must do it at all times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I would agree higher standards should obviously be held for humans, but the principle of locating the precipice, whether warranted or unwarranted, of an action within the larger social context was my intended point. A sentiment of "well these ones are doing it, so all Mexicans must be as such" was being voiced in that thread, and I simply do not agree with that.
    Neither do I. I know Mexicans who are here legally, love this country, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I also know we're not being inundated with barely literate gang banging Canadians, if there even is such a thing, illegally crossing the northern border. Pointing out that our major illegal immigration problem is with Mexico and Mexicans, and that even when they come here legally that many are fighting assimilation tooth and nail, is basically a thought crime in the US. Even advancing the idea that there are some good things, dare I say superior things, about Western culture that all people who come should be expected to understand and support, is a complete third rail issue. No one touches it, everyone knows it's true though.

    The melting pot isn't melting anymore, and instead of being a crucible where everyone brings the best of their culture and accepts the best of the American culture, people just bring their whole cultural shebang over here and expect to set up house and for Americans to change their culture to suit the new arrivals. **** the constitution, **** freedom of speech, yay for handouts and pay for the retirement of my entire extended family.

    Categorizing the actions or thoughts of an entire country based on the actions and thoughts of a group of disgruntled hormone-laden teenagers is presumptious.
    To my knowledge hundred of thousands marched this past year when the issue became hot. And it was only after some kind hearted touchie feelies told them they might score more political points by flying the American flag did the Mexican flags disappear. This is not an isolated incident nor an uncommon frame of mind among many immigrants, illegal and legal.

    Believe it or not, I would fully agree with you; I am not one for abitrary categorization based on topographical, ethnic, social, or cultural lines. While, as I believe there is with every action, there was a social precipice here, the individual executes the choice to carry out any action; as such, I believe individuals should be judged void of those cultural lines.
    But the fact remains when a court decision comes down that upsets 'white' Americans, or when someone insults some basic tenant of wester civilization, desecrates our flag, marches on our soil claiming it belongs to another country and that it will be taken back, you don't see us white anglo saxons rioting in the streets. As far as I'm concerned the precipice you mention is irrelevant; all people are responsible for their actions no matter what, nor should others have to curtail perfectly lawful behavior or speech just to avoid hitting some trigger point of <insert victicrat group> and setting off a riot, losing one's job, or getting the living **** kicked out one and then being told it was their insensitivity to their assailant's culture that 'caused' them to react violently.

    On one hand, you state a desire for the levelling of cultural, social, religious judgement, and on the other, state at times it is necessary. Which is it? We cannot manipulate culturally determinant factors for 'justice' whenever we see fit.
    No we can't. But neither do we need to sit back and accept double standards. Therefore when, as an example, three white kids get railroaded by prosecutor on what turn out to be false charges of raping a black woman and are eventually cleared, it should not be verbotim to point out that the majority of people who are stupid enough to still believe the charges are black. No one would have any problem ****ting on a white woman for falsly charging a black man of rape. And those who believed the charges even after they're proven false would justly be called out for the predjudiced asses they are. But when the colors are reversed we have to 'understand', we have to be 'sensitive', it's a matter of culture and history. We have to think of the 'community'.

    We have to, in so many words, ignore blatant stupidity on the part of a massive section of the population, which is distinctly delineated by race, because of political correctness. And it is therefore verbotin to go to said black community and say, in so many words, "Get your ****ing heads out of your asses. They're innocent, get over it. Just as it's wrong for whites to judge you as a group based on skin color, you'd better get your collective **** together and stop judging us by our skin color."

    As another example there was a racial flap here locally about ten years ago when a bunch of people started complaining about some latinos who moved into the neighborhood. At the town meetings you'd think the KKK had come out in force the way most latinos were talking. One of the houses in question was right up the street from my mother's house. The front door was always open, and eventually was just taken off the hinges and leaned against the front of the house. The lawn was unkempt, growing wild with garbage all over it. the house was on a corner, there was a lady who I grew up with whose house was on the cross road, her backyard looked over and into the yard of the house in question. There were matresses spread all over the yard, fires going in pits, garbage all over the place. Eventually the fences came down, and to say it was for lack of maintenance is to put it mildly. There were old appliances lying in the backyard, like refrigerators. The morons had parties to all hours of the night, cars were pulling up at all hours, people getting out, talking for five minutes and then leaving, which means drug deals for anyone who doesn't follow.

    But, to listen to the latinos at town meetings you'd think the only reason people were complaining was because of the ethnicity of the people living at the house. There are Mexcians, Puerto Ricans, blacks from every damn country and God knows how many other ethnic groups and nationalities in this neighborhood. No one complained about them, and legitimate complaints were stifled for years because anyone who leveled them was called out as a racist, and this was done by those very same latinos who lived in that neighborhood that no one ever complained about.

    The bottom line is the residents of that house were gutter trash pieces of ****. They were the worst kinds of druggies. They didn't maintain the place and let it go to seed in unbelievable ways. They disturbed the neighborhood, their kids harrassed other kids and were apparently starting **** in school. They turned a residential house into a hotbed operation with all kinds of rifraff coming and going in a neighborhood were kids, all kinds of kids, used to play safely in the streets.

    But those who objected were racists. They just didn't 'understand'. They were 'ignorant'. Or maybe they just saw that the people in question were disgusting trash and rightly wanted them the **** out of the neighborhood. And because of some peculiar group think idiocy even the latinos who knew these people were **** flipped out at the very idea of getting rid of them, even just getting money together to buy them out and get them the **** out of the neighborhood. I didn't see any of them letting their kids play in the area of that house, but God forbid the people living near there commented on how they felt uncomfortable or scared, no matter how justified.

    I am not justifying their behaviour based on the social climate of immigration in your country at this time; in fact, I am doing quite the opposite in condemning their actions. I am stating that if we are to judge individuals as individuals we must do it at all times.
    Indeed we must. I'm not the one who needs to hear that though. The people who need to hear it these days are the race baiters, hustlers and pimps like Sharpton and Jackson, the touchy feelies who insist we 'understand' and what not, which is doublespeak for simply allowing attrocious behavior to go uncriticized because the great great grandfather of the person acting atrociously had a hard life, the person in question belongs to some other victicrat group whose integrity and permanent status as victim can't every be questioned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    Neither do I. I know Mexicans who are here legally, love this country, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I also know we're not being inundated with barely literate gang banging Canadians, if there even is such a thing, illegally crossing the northern border. Pointing out that our major illegal immigration problem is with Mexico and Mexicans, and that even when they come here legally that many are fighting assimilation tooth and nail, is basically a thought crime in the US. Even advancing the idea that there are some good things, dare I say superior things, about Western culture that all people who come should be expected to understand and support, is a complete third rail issue. No one touches it, everyone knows it's true though.
    While I may not agree with your sentiment of Western superiority, I can see its base and in no way judge you or crucify you for holding that belief. I think many beneficial historical factors, characterized by factors like location, flora and fauna, climate, etc., have led to the West's greatly expedited development. However, it is impossible to discredit the ingenuity, innovation, and assertive nature of the Anglo-Saxon [I'm not sure what you wish to call it, 'race' is not a word I use or hold any validity in]
    was the greatest factor in this. While the tactics employed by the favorable characteristics therein may have been, to put it lightly, less than ideal, they happened and our enhanced development is nothing to change or be apologetic of. I, however, do not like it when people twist that sentiment into an argument to legitamize social Darwinism. (that's a general statement, not aimed at you).

    The melting pot isn't melting anymore, and instead of being a crucible where everyone brings the best of their culture and accepts the best of the American culture, people just bring their whole cultural shebang over here and expect to set up house and for Americans to change their culture to suit the new arrivals. **** the constitution, **** freedom of speech, yay for handouts and pay for the retirement of my entire extended family.
    You'll find no argument from me there. I think inhabitants of North America, newly arrived should be expected to adapt somewhat, as I would adapt in moving there. I don't believe in culturally hegemony though. The American-way-grab-your-****-gun-and-beer or get the **** out attitude, I think, is ridiculous. The best of all cultures, not the dominant, if not exclusive, aspects of one is not something I subscribe to. That very well may be idealism though.

    To my knowledge hundred of thousands marched this past year when the issue becamne hot. And it was only after some kind hearted touchie feelies told them they might score more political points by flying the American flag did the Mexican flags disappear. This is not an isolated incident nor an uncommon frame of mind among many immigrants, illegal and legal.
    Truly, they did, with one important distinction: the respectful and generally peaceful manner they conducted themselves in.

    But the fact remains when a court decision comes down that upsets 'white' Americans, or when someone insults some basic tenant of wester civilization, desecrates our flag, marches on our soil claiming it belongs to another country and that it will be taken back, you don't see us white anglo saxons rioting in the streets. As far as I'm concerned the precipice you mention is irrelevant; all people are responsible for their actions no matter what, nor should others have to curtail perfectly lawful behavior or speech just to avoid hitting some trigger point of <insert victicrat group> and setting off a riot, losing one's job, or getting the living **** kicked out one and then being told it was their insensitivity to their assailant's culture that 'caused' them to react violently.
    As I said, I despise cultural determinism whether for positive or negative purposes. Social action is far, far too situational for any one factor [ethnicity, culture, religion] to predominate all others.


    No we can't. But neither do we need to sit back and accept double standards. Therefore when, as an example, three white kids get railroaded by prosecutor on what turn out to be false charges of raping a black woman and are eventually cleared, it should not be verbotim to point out that the majority of people who are stupid enough to still believe the charges are black. No one would have any problem ****ting on a white woman for falsly charging a black man of rape. And those who believed the charges even after they're proven false would justly be called out for the predjudiced asses they are. But when the colors are reversed we have to 'understand', we have to be 'sensitive', it's a matter of culture and history. We have to think of the 'community'.

    We have to, in so many words, ignore blatant stupidity on the part of a massive section of the population, which is distinctly delineated by race, because of political correctness. And it is therefore verbotin to go to said black community and say, in so many words, "Get your ****ing heads out of your asses. They're innocent, get over it. Just as it's wrong for whites to judge you as a group based on skin color, you'd better get your collective **** together and stop judging us by our skin color."
    I could not agree with you more about the Duke case; those three completely innocent players were absolutely crucified by the national media who only perpetuated the non-existent racial factor within that case. As I have said, culture, race, religion, skin color, these are things I give no credence to whatsoever. We need to embrace the common culture of humanism [not the school of though perse, just based on we are all humans]. On the same note, I despise affirmative action with a passion. Affirmative action, and cases like these, only help to further marginalized an already marginalized cultural subgroup by way of segregation.

    Indeed we must. I'm not the one who needs to hear that though. The people who need to hear it these days are the race baiters, hustlers and pimps like Sharpton and Jackson, the touchy feelies who insist we 'understand' and what not, which is doublespeak for simply allowing attrocious behavior to go uncriticized because the great great grandfather of the person acting atrociously had a hard life, the person in question belongs to some other victicrat group whose integrity and permanent status as victim can't every be questioned.
    Once again, could not agree more. Those two sit and wait for situations such as this RIDICULOUS Imus 'fiasco' and milk it for everything they are worth. I have no problem publicly stating they are a detriment to their cause, and propogate the media with false concoctions of racial determinism. They are two asses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post


    You'll find no argument from me there. I think inhabitants of North America, newly arrived should be expected to adapt somewhat, as I would adapt in moving there. I don't believe in culturally hegemony though. The American-way-grab-your-****-gun-and-beer or get the **** out attitude, I think, is ridiculous. The best of all cultures, not the dominant, if not exclusive, aspects of one is not something I subscribe to. That very well may be idealism though.
    It's not that we're against Mexican culture (or any other culture) but if you lived in California then you'd be aware of the issues. I don't think CDB or anyone here meant to say immigrants ought to watch football, drink New Castle & Guiness, and buy a few shotguns to play with. What we do need is for immigrants to learn English fluently. The lack of English skills puts a burden on our economy. I have had classes where half the kids were native English speakers and the other half were a mix of Spanish, Russian, Vietnamese, and Tagalog (in high school !). It's insane to teach the same content to all these kids without holding back the native speakers.

    One thing in common is that these kids don't really make an effort to speak the language and their parents discourage them from speaking English at home, WTF ?

    We have all DMV records printed in like 7 languages, we have court translators for criminals who can't speak English, we have everything in English for those who just don't give a crap about learning the ropes in the US of A.

    Furthermore, many of you have heard that our students suck now a day. A lot of this is actually not the issue with native speakers but it is a big issue with immigrants/non-native speakers because these kids just don't know the material in English even though some are really bright but just can't communicate it properly during one of the many mandated state exams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Warrior View Post
    It's not that we're against Mexican culture (or any other culture) but if you lived in California then you'd be aware of the issues. I don't think CDB or anyone here meant to say immigrants ought to watch football, drink New Castle & Guiness, and buy a few shotguns to play with. What we do need is for immigrants to learn English fluently. The lack of English skills puts a burden on our economy. I have had classes where half the kids were native English speakers and the other half were a mix of Spanish, Russian, Vietnamese, and Tagalog (in high school !). It's insane to teach the same content to all these kids without holding back the native speakers. .
    Oh I know. Wasn't implying anybody in this thread in particular, just expressing my distaste with that sentiment overall.


    As I said, I think immigrants should be expected to adapt, as I would if I were to immigrate; that entails learning the language, common behavior, and contributing economically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Oh I know. Wasn't implying anybody in this thread in particular, just expressing my distaste with that sentiment overall.


    As I said, I think immigrants should be expected to adapt, as I would if I were to immigrate; that entails learning the language, common behavior, and contributing economically.
    Sorry bro, didn't mean to put words in your mouth, just wanted to give the rationale behind my thoughts. It's just frustrating to see your political leaders dp nothing except cave in to these pro-illegal immigration groups. I'm also sure you've heard that immigrants do the jobs we don't want to do which is completely baseless. The fact is Americans won't do any job that has no insurance and near minimum wage. If picking fruit payed $15-20 an hour then I'm sure you'd find Americans willing to do those jobs. Whey drinks on me for the good discussion in this thread
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Oh I know. Wasn't implying anybody in this thread in particular, just expressing my distaste with that sentiment overall.

    As I said, I think immigrants should be expected to adapt, as I would if I were to immigrate; that entails learning the language, common behavior, and contributing economically.
    We agree on that point, but as long as it's unPC to point this out and to actually point to a specific group, however you delineate them and say, "Get your **** together, your here now, not there," well then nothing is going to change. You can't make people adapt if your country's government and society are bending over backwards to make it unnecessary to adapt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    We agree on that point, but as long as it's unPC to point this out and to actually point to a specific group, however you delineate them and say, "Get your **** together, your here now, not there," well then nothing is going to change. You can't make people adapt if your country's government and society are bending over backwards to make it unnecessary to adapt.
    I concur. I think it's such a fine line to tread, because there is legitimacy and illegitimacy on both sides of the argument; making it necessary to contribute economically, learn the normative behavior patterns, and behave within the confines of your new home is, I think, completely justified. However, some people, as I said, twist that sentiment into the justification for cultural genocide, as it were.
  

  
 

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