Crazy michigan adultery law

[jarhead]

These developements are just nuts. Getting some on the side can get you up to life in prison.

link:Michigan: if you stray, you may be locked away at Pandagon

 

[wrkn4bigrmusles]

thats oay... in the military you can get kicked out for havin an^l sex and oral... so go figure



but i hear they may have changed it.. i dunno

 

[dsade]

IMO if you are breaking a promise and not telling your spouse, then you are keeping your spouse via fraud. You are stealing time from someone who SHOULD have all information in order to either decide to put up with it, or regain their freedom through divorce.

You might also be putting that person's health at risk.

While it is a question of details (sentencing, honesty of the cheating ****ball, etc), I am ok with it being a criminal offense.

/yes, I have been cheated on several times
//yes, cheating enrages me
//it is not up to YOU to figure out what is important, then choose to tell or not tell. Can't keep the promise? Then don't MAKE the promise.

 

[T-Bone]

IMO if you are breaking a promise and not telling your spouse, then you are keeping your spouse via fraud. You are stealing time from someone who SHOULD have all information in order to either decide to put up with it, or regain their freedom through divorce.

You might also be putting that person's health at risk.

While it is a question of details (sentencing, honesty of the cheating ****ball, etc), I am ok with it being a criminal offense.

/yes, I have been cheated on several times
//yes, cheating enrages me
//it is not up to YOU to figure out what is important, then choose to tell or not tell. Can't keep the promise? Then don't MAKE the promise.

I concur. If you make a vow, a promise, you keep that promise. Otherwise just stay single. 1 man, 1 woman for life. Thats just how its suppose to be. To me, anyone who cheats on someone, if its a spouse, girlfriend, or whatever, can't be trusted with anything. If they are the kind of person that cheats that way they will cheat on everything elese. They will take shortcuts and not work hard, and expect to get something for nothing. Sort of a "living cop-out". Never trust a cheater.

 

[Dr Liftalot]

I have mixed feelings, but cheating should just be used against the accused in divorce court. Not criminal court, i hardly consider a cheating husband or wife to be a criminal. Let alone a felon seems ridiculous, what happens in the bedroom stays in the bedroom. We should never waist tax paying dollars on housing non violent offenders. This is truly a sign of the times, are people so insecure that they need a law to bind there partners to them.

Its called a divorce not jail time, this is truly against the constitution. Why don't we just execute people for J-walking that seems to make about the same amount of sense. I'm all for cheaters getting there own in the end, trust me. But overboard and ridiculous and way out of the legal limits of the government is not what i had in mind.


Just some common sense,
Dr liftalot

 

[dsade]

For the same reason we imprison Con Men, and do not simply leave it to Civil Court....it is called Fraud.

The relationship, for the most part, continues based on certain agreements of Fidelity. I, personally, would NEVER have married my ex-wife if I knew she would not stay faithful. I wasted 5 years of my life being with someone I consider an enemy..I want my 5 years back.

This person knowingly STOLE my time from me, and I consider it theft by fraud...period. Felony? maybe not. Crime? Most certainly.

 

[jarhead]

For the same reason we imprison Con Men, and do not simply leave it to Civil Court....it is called Fraud.

The relationship, for the most part, continues based on certain agreements of Fidelity. I, personally, would NEVER have married my ex-wife if I knew she would not stay faithful. I wasted 5 years of my life being with someone I consider an enemy..I want my 5 years back.

This person knowingly STOLE my time from me, and I consider it theft by fraud...period. Felony? maybe not. Crime? Most certainly.

I understand what you went thru but making laws like that is just ridiculous. Life in prison or a felony? People make mistakes. Con men gain something tangible from their crimes, usually money. There is a difference. You can't put somebody in prison because they emotionally hurt someone. This should be a civil court matter.

 

[Dr Liftalot]

For the same reason we imprison Con Men, and do not simply leave it to Civil Court....it is called Fraud.

The relationship, for the most part, continues based on certain agreements of Fidelity. I, personally, would NEVER have married my ex-wife if I knew she would not stay faithful. I wasted 5 years of my life being with someone I consider an enemy..I want my 5 years back.

This person knowingly STOLE my time from me, and I consider it theft by fraud...period. Felony? maybe not. Crime? Most certainly.

People change, relationships change, marriage dos not constituents owning someone or binding them in a monogamous relationship. Its both of your time, and it takes two to keep things working. For many reason's people become unfaithful. Which most are knowingly despicable, but none the less its not a crime vs humanity. Comparing a CON artist to someone who is unfaithful is not a fair compersent. Con artist go in knowing they are conning people, and usually are stealing from them. When most get married they don't go into it, with the pretext of cleaning them out or cheating. Also its fair to say you could have been stealing her time, and you also had the free will to walk away at any time. Which I'm guessing you did after you found out what she had done.


Also, a little background my parents are devoiced, My Mother cheated on my Farther, at the time they weren't even sleeping together and things weren't going good at all. Was i mad that she did that, Of course. Does she deserve going to jail, NO. Would I want a non violent person who works, pays there tax's to go to jail. NOPE, now the way i look at it..... I'm sorry you got hurt and your wife cheated on you. Believe me i know there's no bigger pain. But, why should i have to pay to house your wife in prison, because you decided to marry someone with low moral standards. Thats not my fault and perhaps its not even yours. But at the end of the day, its not worth footing the bill, the crime doesn't fit the punishment.


Also, what if your wife decided to divorce you because your lazy and don't live up to what you said you'd be, and considers it time lost. Do you think you should go to jail because she's invested time with you?


When it comes down to the blame game not many are ready to except that the place there in, is a manifestation of all the choices they've made themselves. Cheating or having sex with whoever you want is not a crime. Its very taboo and looked down upon as it should be if you choose to be in a monogamous relationship. Perhaps a radification at the divorce trail, perhaps noting which party ended it and why. That way a future spouse or husband could see the pattern's/betrayel from the previous relationship so they can make the choice wether to be with the person.

 

[dsade]

Tough subject, indeed.

As mentioned, I agree that this should not be a Felony, and I don't necessarily agree that there should be jailtime. I do think it should be fraud, though. Once the person commits the act of betrayal, they are bound by morality and honesty to confess.

Damn...I am bombarded with business matters, but I hope this thread stays active as it is both a timely issue and something indicative of the decline of our culture.

 

[Beau]

Adultery is truly a chicken-“stuff” thing to do. Period. When you say “I do” it means something. It is a vow; a three party agreement with God. It is about things such as integrity and character.

We ARE ALL responsible for the situations we put ourselves in or allow ourselves to fall into. BTW - the last time I checked, adultery wasn’t a “mistake” as many tout; unless someone tripped and their penis accidentally fell into the vagina of someone else. It isn’t like tripping on something you didn’t see; I think we all know what leads to sex and I would think few have mot been aware that their actions were heading in that direction.

Regardless of criminal sanctions; adultery should – 100% of the time – result in forfeiture by the unfaithful spouse of any and all assets attained during the marriage. Even if the couple decides to reconcile, the faithful spouse has to deal with emotional baggage for year to come. If someone steals from you, say $50,000, do they just have to say “I’m sorry” or is there some form of recompense that needs to occur? What kind of recompense can the infidel provide to the faithful spouse? What can they do to compensate them for choosing to destroy the trust and fidelity that existed? I could go on and on.

We are all big boys (and girls), take the high road and be faithful – or don’t get married.

You might think I have some definite opinions on this, huh?

 

[CDB]

I understand what you went thru but making laws like that is just ridiculous. Life in prison or a felony? People make mistakes. Con men gain something tangible from their crimes, usually money. There is a difference. You can't put somebody in prison because they emotionally hurt someone. This should be a civil court matter.

As should all fraud. Restitution and/or reparations should be the remedy for nonviolent fraud of all kinds, not imprisonment. What you do with your time is your own business in all cases. If you don't live up to your end of a contract you should be brought before a court to work out the remedy the person defrauded wants, not imprisoned. In DSADE's case he understandably wants his wasted time back, and he should have gotten a reasonable price for that wasted time.

But at the end of the day, its not worth footing the bill, the crime doesn't fit the punishment.

Exactly. What does he get out of sending her to prison? He gets to foot the bill for her room and board along with every other tax payer. That's ridiculous. The focus of punishment should be on restitution/reparations.

 

[CDB]

We are all big boys (and girls), take the high road and be faithful – or don’t get married.

You might think I have some definite opinions on this, huh?

One question I don't see coming up, is there actually any real evidence humans are by nature monogamous? Some primates are, some aren't. Marriage itself, or monogamous relationships sans kids, or even with, might not be the biological norm for humans.

 

[Dr Liftalot]

Adultery is truly a chicken-“stuff” thing to do. Period. When you say “I do” it means something. It is a vow; a three party agreement with God. It is about things such as integrity and character.

We ARE ALL responsible for the situations we put ourselves in or allow ourselves to fall into. BTW - the last time I checked, adultery wasn’t a “mistake” as many tout; unless someone tripped and their penis accidentally fell into the vagina of someone else. It isn’t like tripping on something you didn’t see; I think we all know what leads to sex and I would think few have mot been aware that their actions were heading in that direction.

Regardless of criminal sanctions; adultery should – 100% of the time – result in forfeiture by the unfaithful spouse of any and all assets attained during the marriage. Even if the couple decides to reconcile, the faithful spouse has to deal with emotional baggage for year to come. If someone steals from you, say $50,000, do they just have to say “I’m sorry” or is there some form of recompense that needs to occur? What kind of recompense can the infidel provide to the faithful spouse? What can they do to compensate them for choosing to destroy the trust and fidelity that existed? I could go on and on.

We are all big boys (and girls), take the high road and be faithful – or don’t get married.

You might think I have some definite opinions on this, huh?

I agree, but it should be limited since situations differ so much, who's going to decide? Also anyone who gets into a relationship is just as responsible and knows the risk of marriage. Therefore should suck it up, besides thats why we have civil courts/divorce courts, so if your wife decides to blow some guy you can in turn take the house. Usually under those circumstances the judge will side with the faithful party. Not to say i wouldn't be in favor of a file being placed after the marriage about the circumstances so future prospective partners of the unfaithful party would be able to do a quick reference and see what she/he did before hand.

Take this example for instance, guy losses his sex drive. No longer attracted to the wife(Rather jerk off then PIITB) the wife does what she can to try to sub-duce him and all messures fail. She tries to get a divorce but he won't sign the papers. Finally she sleeps with another guy. Now who's truly at fault here, was it the guy for not having the sex drive or the women. Tough to decide, and honestly has no place within a criminal court of justice.


What i don't understand is why people think they can bill people for there time (LOST?) . Last time i checked this is a free country, if you want you can spend your time with someone or go run a train on someone. Its a unfortunate reality, the law makes no sense, and runs closer to a Nazism government. So say they impose laws like this, where does it stop? You can't sign away your rights, that in it self is unconstitutional.


Also marriage is what you make of it, has anyone ever heard the separation of church and state. Marriage is a two part deal, part of it is a nice BIG TAX BREAK and Sharing property/finances.(GOVERNMENT) The rest of the moral promises which are just that, and have more to do with (CHURCH). These promises are not in the constitution, its your right to do what you want with whoever, you'd like as long as its consensual. (This is within your legal rights) on the flip side, its within your legal rights to divorce someone if you find there actions to become unbecoming and deceitful which is when the GOVERNMENT end of the deal is now nulled, now you divide what property,etc between the parties due to the circumstances. While you can use evidence of someone cheating, to help boost your case. You can't prosecute them for it because its within there legal rights.

If that makes any sense......

 

[dsade]

Is there evidence that says humans are not by nature murderous savages?

Is it realistic to then expect them to act like civilized people? Or do we, in fact, have to enact PENALTIES in order to make sure other people are not wronged...or at least that the injuring parties are punished in some way?

 

[Beau]

One question I don't see coming up, is there actually any real evidence humans are by nature monogamous? Some primates are, some aren't. Marriage itself, or monogamous relationships sans kids, or even with, might not be the biological norm for humans.

Left solely to our own desires, I would say not. Let’s face it, most guys would hump anything reasonably attractive provided only that she slows down long enough to make that physically possible. Name? We don’t need to know her name to nail her, many would say. Call me? OK, but only the next time I need a booty call.

Being even more candid – we are not inherently terrific beings unless we live by some set of agreed upon rules and norms. We can be plenty of crappy things should we fail not to control our impulses. For example, most of us (by nature) desire food, and we need to eat - but that need (except in extreme cases) doesn't justify any one of us walking into a grocery store and stealing food. Maybe not the best analogy - but we really are responsible for what we do.

By nature we all need to excrete waste – but we don’t do that in the front yard; although our dogs might. Does that mean the nature of our need to go to the bathroom differs between one of us and Fido? No. It means we can rationalize and make decisions on when, where and how, and Fido usually can’t.

By making a marriage vow we make the choice of monogamy; even if it is against everything our groin might wish. Once we’ve done so – I think we are obligated to live up to the commitment we made.

OTOH – If a man or woman wants to live their life as an ongoing trim hunt – I am OK with that. It isn’t what I would advocate – but that would be their decision, not mine. So what is the difference? In the case of adultery you are being dishonest; intentionally misleading the very person you vowed to forsake all other for – all for your own selfish pursuit. In the case of the ongoing trim hunt (or open relationship) everything is above board for all to know.

 

[dsade]

:goodpost:

 

[Dr Liftalot]

Left solely to our own desires, I would say not. Let’s face it, most guys would hump anything reasonably attractive provided only that she slows down long enough to make that physically possible. Name? We don’t need to know her name to nail her, many would say. Call me? OK, but only the next time I need a booty call.

Being even more candid – we are not inherently terrific beings unless we live by some set of agreed upon rules and norms. We can be plenty of crappy things should we fail not to control our impulses. For example, most of us (by nature) desire food, and we need to eat - but that need (except in extreme cases) doesn't justify any one of us walking into a grocery store and stealing food. Maybe not the best analogy - but we really are responsible for what we do.

By nature we all need to excrete waste – but we don’t do that in the front yard; although our dogs might. Does that mean the nature of our need to go to the bathroom differs between one of us and Fido? No. It means we can rationalize and make decisions on when, where and how, and Fido usually can’t.

By making a marriage vow we make the choice of monogamy; even if it is against everything our groin might wish. Once we’ve done so – I think we are obligated to live up to the commitment we made.

OTOH – If a man or woman wants to live their life as an ongoing trim hunt – I am OK with that. It isn’t what I would advocate – but that would be their decision, not mine. So what is the difference? In the case of adultery you are being dishonest; intentionally misleading the very person you vowed to forsake all other for – all for your own selfish pursuit. In the case of the ongoing trim hunt (or open relationship) everything is above board for all to know.

What i think you fail to realize, that there are many types of marriages and the commitment part is not within the state or federal governments legal jurisdiction nor should it be. The smaller parts are up to couple itself and is more of a commitment to each other and while it maybe indeed wrong for a person to mislead another adult or conduct sexual behaviors behind there backs. It does not breach any laws, nor should it. For a multitude of reason's i listed above. Hurting someone's feelings isn't against law and considering 2/3's of all marriages fail we're talking allot of legal ramification's. Besides if your getting married why would you need a law that says if your partner cheats there going to jail for adultery. If you need a law like that, you don't need marriage period because its about trust.


This simply reeks of super insecurity passed into a form of law, why pass a law that basically points a loaded gun at your partners head to keep them faithful. It all seems very very ironic and unconstitutional and I'm positive religiously sponsored HIGH ground, MORAL based laws will be eradicated in the future.


This law begs the question
Is marriage truly pointless now, have we come down to this?

 

[dsade]

If some people were not excellent liars lacking integrity, perhaps it would not be necessary. Fact is that people get fooled.

I think there needs to be legal consequences for lying, and to say it is just a matter of "hurting someone's feelings" is to minimize it.

The damage is often permanent, leading to complete mistrust and perhaps crippling the ability of the other person to ever trust intimacy again.

 

[Dr Liftalot]

If some people were not excellent liars lacking integrity, perhaps it would not be necessary. Fact is that people get fooled.

I think there needs to be legal consequences for lying, and to say it is just a matter of "hurting someone's feelings" is to minimize it.

The damage is often permanent, leading to complete mistrust and perhaps crippling the ability of the other person to ever trust intimacy again.

But thats life, these are things that happen and will make or break you. If you go to the casino and roll the dice and you win. Your pretty happy right, say we roll again and you lose all your money. Who's fault is it, is it the casinos fault for have a game where the odds are 1/4 in there favor, or is it your fault for playing. Even if you weren't aware that your chances of winning were slim.

Like i said, it would be hard to prove within a reasonable doubt that your partner set out to hurt you. And there are legal consiquiences above for when you go to court to settle your divorce you can use it as evidence what they have done to get more. But like i noted your promise to each other THE SO CALLED WEDDING VOWS, doesn't take away your partners rights. Just like if you sign a wavier doesn't take away your ability to sue someone. Because you can't forfeit your rights under the constitution. Its up to the parties who are *SUPPOSE TO BE IN LOVE* to keep there promises/vows.

 

[Beau]

I agree, but it should be limited since situations differ so much, who's going to decide? Also anyone who gets into a relationship is just as responsible and knows the risk of marriage. Therefore should suck it up, besides thats why we have civil courts/divorce courts, so if your wife decides to blow some guy you can in turn take the house. Usually under those circumstances the judge will side with the faithful party. Not to say i wouldn't be in favor of a file being placed after the marriage about the circumstances so future prospective partners of the unfaithful party would be able to do a quick reference and see what she/he did before hand.

Take this example for instance, guy losses his sex drive. No longer attracted to the wife(Rather jerk off then PIITB) the wife does what she can to try to sub-duce him and all messures fail. She tries to get a divorce but he won't sign the papers. Finally she sleeps with another guy. Now who's truly at fault here, was it the guy for not having the sex drive or the women. Tough to decide, and honestly has no place within a criminal court of justice.


What i don't understand is why people think they can bill people for there time (LOST?) . Last time i checked this is a free country, if you want you can spend your time with someone or go run a train on someone. Its a unfortunate reality, the law makes no sense, and runs closer to a Nazism government. So say they impose laws like this, where does it stop? You can't sign away your rights, that in it self is unconstitutional.


Also marriage is what you make of it, has anyone ever heard the separation of church and state. Marriage is a two part deal, part of it is a nice BIG TAX BREAK and Sharing property/finances.(GOVERNMENT) The rest of the moral promises which are just that, and have more to do with (CHURCH). These promises are not in the constitution, its your right to do what you want with whoever, you'd like as long as its consensual. (This is within your legal rights) on the flip side, its within your legal rights to divorce someone if you find there actions to become unbecoming and deceitful which is when the GOVERNMENT end of the deal is now nulled, now you divide what property,etc between the parties due to the circumstances. While you can use evidence of someone cheating, to help boost your case. You can't prosecute them for it because its within there legal rights.

If that makes any sense......

I would be foolish to assume we could take a one size fits all approach to something as complex as this; we just can’t. Many parts are black and white; others are shades of gray. That being said I’ll throw out more thoughts.

IMO the foundation of society is the family. The family is being dismantled for a variety of reasons. Some of that has to do with the relative commitment spouses make to one another, which I think has a lot to do with selfishness. We are inherently selfish people; and that has to be tempered in a marriage. In any case, I believe our society is suffering a great deal as families decline. BTW – there used to be a good deal of information suggesting that kids adjust well to divorce and that it has little long term impact on them. Current research indicates otherwise – in effect saying that divorce does indeed play a heavy toll on children and can impact multiple generations. Believe it or not, except in the case of abuse, it is now claimed that children from stable but relatively unhappy marriages actually wind up better off than children from divorce. Please note – this isn’t my conjecture or psycho-babble – but my recounting what I’ve read. No more, no less.

Now then, I’m pretty certain marriage and love means something different to me than it might mean to some others. For me it entails an unconditional, lifelong commitment (that is what I say, but I sure interject a bunch of little conditions along the way). But for the most part, to me “I do” meant “I do forever”, not “I do for so long as you meet my sexual needs”, “as long as you look good” or “as long as I don’t have to take care of you once you have Alzheimer’s disease”, etc. As part of the commitment we are to work through the tough times, take the good with the bad. Sometime that just flat out sucks.

Look at it this way, once we make the decision to have children, for example – I think we waive our right to say “I just wasn’t cut out to have kids”. Guess what? You have them. You already made that choice. They are YOUR responsibility. Make that your passion.

To me the same is true with marriage.

What do we do in cases like those you referred to (wife cannot get husband to become sexually involved)? I say counseling should be a starting point. It is a heck of a lot better than brooding, the silent treatment, expecting the other person to read your mind, one ups-man-ship (I’ll raise your rejection with even more rejection), and especially adultery. I think all of those aren’t viable options; they just result in a gradual hatred being developed between people that once loved one another (or perhaps still love one another). Ultimatums can be given, MDs involved (if depression), etc. When all is said and done, one partner – if they choose not to divorce – may have to learn to accept it – and try to do so without holding grudge. Sometimes we all have to just eat a dirt sandwich, even one that someone else ordered for you.

You and I may not see eye-to-eye on some of the thoughts; and that is OK. I am pretty darned old school, and I may be out of my element (at least to a certain extent) on this forum.

 

[dsade]

I have to agree with Beau....I know every generation says the same thing, but there just seems to be something wrong with the whole core of this country's culture. Combined with threats from without, and we are in for a hurting unless we strengthen the national character.

Again, it is NOT about the choices people make as far as their own sexuality, etc...but the choice to LIE and STEAL from another their freedom to act with all pertinent information at hand...which is the equivalent of stealing.

 

[Beau]

What i think you fail to realize, that there are many types of marriages and the commitment part is not within the state or federal governments legal jurisdiction nor should it be.

No, I am aware of this; I just look at marriage in a very traditional context. It isn't that I fail to realize other contexts exist.

...commitment to each other and while it maybe indeed wrong for a person to mislead another adult or conduct sexual behaviors behind there backs. It does not breach any laws, nor should it.

I hear what you are saying; I just don’t happen to accept that as fact. There are/can be tremendous repercussions of families splitting apart. Sadly, I believe many people feel a sense of entitlement to pursue their own happiness - even if it is at the grave expense of others. That just seems to lack a sense of responsibility and, candidly, honor. I think we all have an obligation to be true to our word. If not, we are merely reduced to a bunch of glad-handing liars.

The rate of infidelity continues to rise; I believe a sign of unbridled selfishness. Adultery is one manifestation of that. Go with me for a moment: Let's assume for the time being that there is a cost to society of divorce. Let’s also assume there is a cost to society of reckless driving, speeding, etc. There are sanctions against reckless vehicular behavior - and I believe these in some (perhaps small) part help reduce the amount of reckless driving, speeding, etc. Adultery used to be sufficient cause for divorce (and it is the only recognized cause in the many religions). It also used to be illegal. I wouldn't care if it was still illegal today. Why? I have every intention of maintaining my vow, and if it was illegal and that kept one family in-tact. I think it is worth it. That is how much value I place on the family.

Hurting someone's feelings isn't against law and considering 2/3's of all marriages fail we're talking allot of legal ramification's.

Agreed. We can all hurt someone's feelings without legal implication (thankfully). In fact, I am sure I do that every day by being an insensitive jerk. But the question becomes - is adultery equal only to hurting someone's feelings, or does it exceed that by a huge margin? I believe adultery is the most significant betrayals one can encounter (perhaps 2nd to murder and rape). It can destroy the family unit. It can have long lasting and financially devastating implications. It separates children from parents. It creates “Disneyland Dads” and a huge sense of abandonment by children (and, I am told, children assume responsibility for the break up). Adultery is, in fact, a form of breach of contract; one likely to have a very serious impact. The vows and marriage license are legally binding. This breach of contract exceeds more than emotional boundaries as well; being that the family unit is also an economic unit.

While I'm at it, I think it is essential that we provide one heck of a lot more training on what male/female communications are all about. Lets train people in how to be succesful in families, rather than accept the Hollywwod-BS on what marriage really is. It is no shock to me that so many fail; what have we done to foster the chances of success. I MADE my sons read "Venus and Mars", and they all (1) were amazed, and (2) thanked me. Yah, I know - I sound like a puss.

Besides if your getting married why would you need a law that says if your partner cheats there going to jail for adultery. If you need a law like that, you don't need marriage period because its about trust.

If I haven't already ostracized myself from the readers of this thread, well - this may do it. The only reason we would need a law to address this is because we, as a nation, seem to have completely lost the concept of there being a fundamental sense of right and wrong. I think we are more concerned with moral relativism. To clarify, I do not advocate criminal sanctions; I'm not even sure I think civil sanctions make sense - I just hate to see the faithful spouse literally financially destroyed by the selfish acts of the infidel. I will say this – if I know that a business associate or counterpart is cheating; I assume they would slit my throat. Why? If they can bold-faced lie to and sabotage someone they purport to love, what would they do to me - given our relatively meaningless association? Trust is something that I fear we are losing – in mankind.

This law begs the question Is marriage truly pointless now, have we come down to this?

I don't think so; in fact, I believe it is more essential now than it has ever been.

DR. Liftalot - I appreciate having had the opportunity to "discuss” this with you in a gentlemanly way. I fully appreciate the perspective you embrace - I think I’m just a bit more hard core when it comes to the sanctity of marriage. Many times these discussions reduce to name calling and the like. I assume those that chose to voice an opinion feel passionately, and we each hold things like this dear.

Regards

 

[Jayhawkk]

Hard for me to comment because I have deep feeling son the subject but I will say that I find the act of a spouse cheating one of the highest forms of betrayal. I've always said that if you to want to cheat then tell me so we can both go our seperate ways.

 

[Dr Liftalot]

No, I am aware of this; I just look at marriage in a very traditional context. It isn't that I fail to realize other contexts exist.


I hear what you are saying; I just don’t happen to accept that as fact. There are/can be tremendous repercussions of families splitting apart. Sadly, I believe many people feel a sense of entitlement to pursue their own happiness - even if it is at the grave expense of others. That just seems to lack a sense of responsibility and, candidly, honor. I think we all have an obligation to be true to our word. If not, we are merely reduced to a bunch of glad-handing liars.

The rate of infidelity continues to rise; I believe a sign of unbridled selfishness. Adultery is one manifestation of that. Go with me for a moment: Let's assume for the time being that there is a cost to society of divorce. Let’s also assume there is a cost to society of reckless driving, speeding, etc. There are sanctions against reckless vehicular behavior - and I believe these in some (perhaps small) part help reduce the amount of reckless driving, speeding, etc. Adultery used to be sufficient cause for divorce (and it is the only recognized cause in the many religions). It also used to be illegal. I wouldn't care if it was still illegal today. Why? I have every intention of maintaining my vow, and if it was illegal and that kept one family in-tact. I think it is worth it. That is how much value I place on the family.


Agreed. We can all hurt someone's feelings without legal implication (thankfully). In fact, I am sure I do that every day by being an insensitive jerk. But the question becomes - is adultery equal only to hurting someone's feelings, or does it exceed that by a huge margin? I believe adultery is the most significant betrayals one can encounter (perhaps 2nd to murder and rape). It can destroy the family unit. It can have long lasting and financially devastating implications. It separates children from parents. It creates “Disneyland Dads” and a huge sense of abandonment by children (and, I am told, children assume responsibility for the break up). Adultery is, in fact, a form of breach of contract; one likely to have a very serious impact. The vows and marriage license are legally binding. This breach of contract exceeds more than emotional boundaries as well; being that the family unit is also an economic unit.

While I'm at it, I think it is essential that we provide one heck of a lot more training on what male/female communications are all about. Lets train people in how to be succesful in families, rather than accept the Hollywwod-BS on what marriage really is. It is no shock to me that so many fail; what have we done to foster the chances of success. I MADE my sons read "Venus and Mars", and they all (1) were amazed, and (2) thanked me. Yah, I know - I sound like a puss.


If I haven't already ostracized myself from the readers of this thread, well - this may do it. The only reason we would need a law to address this is because we, as a nation, seem to have completely lost the concept of there being a fundamental sense of right and wrong. I think we are more concerned with moral relativism. To clarify, I do not advocate criminal sanctions; I'm not even sure I think civil sanctions make sense - I just hate to see the faithful spouse literally financially destroyed by the selfish acts of the infidel. I will say this – if I know that a business associate or counterpart is cheating; I assume they would slit my throat. Why? If they can bold-faced lie to and sabotage someone they purport to love, what would they do to me - given our relatively meaningless association? Trust is something that I fear we are losing – in mankind.


I don't think so; in fact, I believe it is more essential now than it has ever been.

DR. Liftalot - I appreciate having had the opportunity to "discuss” this with you in a gentlemanly way. I fully appreciate the perspective you embrace - I think I’m just a bit more hard core when it comes to the sanctity of marriage. Many times these discussions reduce to name calling and the like. I assume those that chose to voice an opinion feel passionately, and we each hold things like this dear.

Regards

Ditto, i also enjoy a good debate that isn't reduced to name calling or huffing and puffing. I respect your views and look foreword to future debates.

*Another reason i stopped posting at BB.com and started posting here*


Dr liftalot

 

[CDB]

All good points. However we are not stopping people from excreting waste, nor are we stopping people from being pricks toward one another. There are merely limits on the behavior most agree on. However, do most people agree on monogomy? In word, and more importantly, in action? I remember reading somewhere, don't know if it's true, that random blood tests in some communities revealed that a relatively large percentage of kids couldn't be the children of the men the women were married to.

I don't think people should be allowed to break vows without having to make restitution or reparations myself. What I am questioning though is the realism of people sticking to those vows to begin with. And criminal penalties? That's just plain ridiculous. And it's not just guys. It takes two to tango, and if men really are such prolific fillanderers then for every one guy who cheats there has to be way more than one woman who does likewise. Personally I don't think we were meant to be with one person forever. I don't think humans mate for life for the most part. Some do, many don't. Speaking from purely evolutionary terms what's the benefit of restricting good genes to one particular family line? Maybe many marriages are doomed to fail for this very reason, we're just not made to fit that mold.

So when people lie, definitely hold them responsible. And over time maybe people will get over the whole marriage thing and learn to stop putting themselves in positions where getting some new ass every now and then isn't forbidden.

Left solely to our own desires, I would say not. Let’s face it, most guys would hump anything reasonably attractive provided only that she slows down long enough to make that physically possible. Name? We don’t need to know her name to nail her, many would say. Call me? OK, but only the next time I need a booty call.

Being even more candid – we are not inherently terrific beings unless we live by some set of agreed upon rules and norms. We can be plenty of crappy things should we fail not to control our impulses. For example, most of us (by nature) desire food, and we need to eat - but that need (except in extreme cases) doesn't justify any one of us walking into a grocery store and stealing food. Maybe not the best analogy - but we really are responsible for what we do.

By nature we all need to excrete waste – but we don’t do that in the front yard; although our dogs might. Does that mean the nature of our need to go to the bathroom differs between one of us and Fido? No. It means we can rationalize and make decisions on when, where and how, and Fido usually can’t.

By making a marriage vow we make the choice of monogamy; even if it is against everything our groin might wish. Once we’ve done so – I think we are obligated to live up to the commitment we made.

OTOH – If a man or woman wants to live their life as an ongoing trim hunt – I am OK with that. It isn’t what I would advocate – but that would be their decision, not mine. So what is the difference? In the case of adultery you are being dishonest; intentionally misleading the very person you vowed to forsake all other for – all for your own selfish pursuit. In the case of the ongoing trim hunt (or open relationship) everything is above board for all to know.

 

[CDB]

If some people were not excellent liars lacking integrity, perhaps it would not be necessary. Fact is that people get fooled.

I think there needs to be legal consequences for lying, and to say it is just a matter of "hurting someone's feelings" is to minimize it.

The damage is often permanent, leading to complete mistrust and perhaps crippling the ability of the other person to ever trust intimacy again.

So? I've been cheated on before. It hurts like hell but hurt feelings, no matter how deep, are not a matter of criminal law.

 

[Jayhawkk]

I don't think people should be allowed to break vows without having to make restitution or reparations myself. What I am questioning though is the realism of people sticking to those vows to begin with.

Probably not realistic for a lot of people and those people should not make the vow to begin with. I would be willing to bet that people who are going to cheat go into marriage knowing this.

 

[jarhead]

I understand there are strong feelings on this. I just don't understand how anyone could be ok with the government having a law on the books like this. Getting cheated on can hurt just as bad whether or not you are married. The reasons you guys say you're for it are mostly moral reasons, not specifically the breach of the contract of marriage. Yes, it hurt's to be cheated on, but when the government gets this deep into running our lives it's wrong. Are we going to set a precedent for imprisoning people for inflicting OTHER emotional trauma to people? My biological father basically abandoned me and I grew up without one. It will hurt the rest of my life. Does that give me the right to throw his ass in jail? In any other instance in the law where damage is emotional, it is a civil, not CRIMINAL matter.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Does that give me the right to throw his ass in jail?

No but it should give you a get out of jail free, can O whoop ass to put on him.

 

[jarhead]

No but it should give you a get out of jail free, can O whoop ass to put on him.

Yeah, he needs it.

 

[anabolicrhino]

Wow, this is the most inspiring article I have read in a long time!
I have never been married, but I have been the "other guy" a few times back when I was young and immoral!!!

I am very curious about this term Criminal Sexual Contact. It sounds like a whole new way to play the game. I mean is there a club for people who would prefer their sexual contact to be criminal?..are there different degrees of criminality??

Hopefully this will wake people up to the fact that a marriage certificate is a legal document!,... nothing more and as many a sad soul can testify,... nothing less!!! Marriage certificate= (- $) for you and (+$) for a lawyer!!!

Personal commitment to a relationship is a matter of character and integrity, if you or the other person do not possese these qualities, please save yourself some money and don't get married!!!

I wonder if they will have a special jail for these felons? I wonder if they can recieve conjugal visits?? I wonder if they would kick out a murderer or other felons if the jails were overcrowded???