Military Newspapers: Rumsfeld Must Go

[The Colonel 333]

Military Newspapers: Rumsfeld Must Go
UPI | November 04, 2006
SAN FRANCISCO - Four publications of the Military Times Media Group plan to call on U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to resign, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

The Army Times, Air Force Times, Navy Times and Marine Corps Times will issue the call in an editorial scheduled to run Monday, the newspaper said.

The Chronicle published the text of the editorial on its Web site Friday.

The editorial says the truth about the war in Iraq "been difficult to come by from leaders in Washington." Instead, the editorial says President George W. Bush, Vice President **** Cheney and Rumsfeld have issued "one rosy reassurance after another."

The editorial notes that Bush recently said Rumsfeld would keep his job for the remainder of Bush's term in office.

"This is a mistake," the editorial says. "Rumsfeld has lost credibility with the uniformed leadership, with the troops, with Congress and with the public at large."

The editorial characterizes military officers as "loyal public promoters of a war policy many privately feared would fail," and says "they have kept their counsel private, adhering to more than two centuries of American tradition of subordination of the military to civilian authority

Military Newspapers: Rumsfeld Must Go

[anabolicrhino]

Military Newspapers: Rumsfeld Must Go
UPI | November 04, 2006
SAN FRANCISCO - Four publications of the Military Times Media Group plan to call on U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to resign, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

The Army Times, Air Force Times, Navy Times and Marine Corps Times will issue the call in an editorial scheduled to run Monday, the newspaper said.

The Chronicle published the text of the editorial on its Web site Friday.

The editorial says the truth about the war in Iraq "been difficult to come by from leaders in Washington." Instead, the editorial says President George W. Bush, Vice President **** Cheney and Rumsfeld have issued "one rosy reassurance after another."

The editorial notes that Bush recently said Rumsfeld would keep his job for the remainder of Bush's term in office.

"This is a mistake," the editorial says. "Rumsfeld has lost credibility with the uniformed leadership, with the troops, with Congress and with the public at large."

The editorial characterizes military officers as "loyal public promoters of a war policy many privately feared would fail," and says "they have kept their counsel private, adhering to more than two centuries of American tradition of subordination of the military to civilian authority

Military Newspapers: Rumsfeld Must Go

Rumsfeld hs been critisized by a few generals mainly for the US policy of "stay the course" which is low on objectives and high on casualties. This policy directly opposes how the generals have been trained. The goal of any military action is to achieve their pre-stated objective(goals) as quickly as possibile with the lowest amount of human and equipment losses.(efficiently) The current startegy seems to be wait for a soldier to be attacked by an IED than retaliate. This strategy "requires casualties" and is fruitless, there are no rewards. Generals and military personel are trained to achieve goals, not to become unwilling targets for
the iraqii insurgency.

There is a great clip on Youtube, where Rumsfeld is having a Q&A with the troops and he gets heckled to the point of fustration. He responds with "I'm an old man, I need time to think"....yikes!

[Jason Pegg]

I thought this was a pretty solid reply:

I have found the story in question. As well as many of the replys to the request for them . Here is one that does not require 1 single word from me except this: My name is obtainable, where is the name of the editorial writer from Gannett Publishing that owns all 3 papers?



Robert Alan_guest is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Discuss the editorial
I read the editorial, and found its conclusion to be absurd, to say the least.
So some retired generals don't like the way things are going. BFD! Their opinions are just that. Opinions. They are not gospel, and are of no more merit than anyone else's.

And if they were so convinced that they are right, then why do they not have the courage to stand up and let us, soldiers and citizens alike, know just who they are? Why do they hide behind a cloak of anonimity?

They are in no danger of being court-martialed, demoted, losing their pension, or being punished in any other way, are they? No, of course not. Then why the cowardice? And that is precisely what they are, cowards.

If they had the courage of their convictions, they would come out of their closet, and say what they think in public, for all of us to see.
If I can do it, (and I often do), then why can't they? Are they afraid of being ridiculed, and ostracized by their buddies? Probably.

Now that I had had my say about the retired cowards, er, generals, on to the media.

The mainstream media has, since President Bush took office, accused him of just about everything except child molesting, and rape. And the Gannett group, which publishes the Army Times, is no different. In fact, after the New York Times, Gannett papers are among the most critical of everything the president says, or does.

This hatchet job on Mr. Rumsfield is just another effort by the media to chip away at President Bush, and the GOP in general. It is, simply put, politically motivated.

This editorial is, IMO, a misrepresentation of the truth.

Quote:
Army Gen. John Abizaid, chief of U.S. Central Command, told a Senate Armed Services Committee in September: “I believe that the sectarian violence is probably as bad as I’ve seen it ... and that if not stopped, it is possible that Iraq could move towards civil war.”

It seems to me that what Gen. Abizaid was doing was pointing out a possibility, not a forecast of things to come.

If I were to say, "I believe that the rising hatred of Islam in this country is probably as bad as I've seen it... and that if not stopped, it is possible that the US could move towards mass killings of muslims."
That viewpoint is no more, or less legitimate, or accurate than the generals view of Iraq. Of course, his statement was edited, and I have to wonder just what the writer of this editorial left out.

Quote:
This is a mistake. It is one thing for the majority of Americans to think Rumsfeld has failed. But when the nation’s current military leaders start to break publicly with their defense secretary, then it is clear that he is losing control of the institution he ostensibly leads.

"Losing control"? I think not. America is one of the very few nations where a military leader can disagree with political policy and not have his head handed to him. I suggest that the writer go back to the late 1970's and see what the generals then thought publicly of Jimmy Carter. Or what they thought publicly of LBJ, and Robert McNamara. Or even further back, to Truman, and FDR.

There is ample historical precedent of generals openly disagreeing with official policy. In spite of that, they did their jobs anyway. Which is what the generals today are doing. Their jobs.

I defend Mr. Rumsfield not from partisanship, but because I believe that he is honestly trying to do the best possible job, under the worst possible circumstances. The media, the far left, and the Democrats have harped on him since day one. Not only is this not "fair", it's ethically wrong.

President Bush has stood by him, as well he should, knowing that it is unlikely that there is anyone else who could do the job half as well.

I have a child serving in Iraq, and if I thought for one minute that there was anyone who would make a better SecDef that Donald Rumsfield, I too would be demanding that he step down.

The sad part of this is, we are now victims of our own success. Since the end of the Vietnam war, the US has won every conflict it has been involved in. Our victories were quick, and the cost in lives was small.

Now, the public, and many in the media, as well as our politicians, have come to expect that this will be true of all conflicts. And when it does not go according to their wishes, they howl like banshees, demanding someone's head on a platter.

This is wrong. I believe that the Army Times Publishing Co., the Gannett Group, and the convieniently anonymous author of this "editorial" owes Mr. Rumsfield an apology.

They all were, and are, quite wrong.

Jason

[Dutchman]

Forty years ago when they sent my buddies and I into combat, we had a name for cowards like Rumpot and his sycophants..."ChickenHawks"! They never had the courage to stand up and be counted, only the balls to lie, cheat and manipulate those of us who grew up believing in this great country. These draftdodging SOBs are doing the same thing all over again. When the elections are over, watch as they stick it to the Guard and Reserves and change the rules,....again....on the number of and length of tours. The Military Times is right to call these cowards out and demand their removal. S**tcan Rummy!

[The Colonel 333]

Wow, I cant believe you just posted that. Or better yet I can't believe anyone would actually buy it. Let's see where to begin. First lets attack what there saying..

"I read the editorial, and found its conclusion to be absurd, to say the least.
So some retired generals don't like the way things are going. BFD! Their opinions are just that. Opinions. They are not gospel, and are of no more merit than anyone else's".

Uhhmm ok.... Wow what a deep revelation this man had, how on earth did he figure out that these opinions are only opinions. Perhaps he is used to assuming that most of what he hears is gospel and hear comes a mere opinion. I also like how when there opinion differs from his he blows it off with BFD !. How dare they give there opinion! Now here is my favorite part where he starts calling these Generals cowards.

"Then why the cowardice? And that is precisely what they are, cowards".

I just love when someone who does not have the courage, will, or want to join the military and actually put there life on the line in defense of this country starts calling those that do cowards, when they disagree with them. Man I am sick of the chicken hawk Mother F@*kers sitting behind there oak desk soaking up the A/C attacking the brave men and women of this country who actually have made sacrifice. Before anyone else jumps on the coward band wagon let me ask you, what have you done for the war effort? Have missed the birth of a child ? Have not seen your newborn for over a year ? Have you missed your wifes anniversary, birthday, Kids first day of school ? Have you sacrificed ANYTHING ? name one damn thing. These are just some of the more superficial sacrifices, I wont even touch the issue of loosing life or limbs because I know the chicken hawks can't even answer yes to these simple questions. Enjoy your hot shower and your day at the mall looking for a new set of clothes while you call the members of the military cowards. A@@hole.

"Now that I had had my say about the retired cowards, er, generals, on to the media"

Next thing to be done is attack the source... Oh boy here we go with the, it's the liberal medias fault line of bullsh*t. I am so tired of this weak, false and misleading argument. So just to be sure I have this correct. The Navy times, Army times, Air force times, and Marine corp times are now just another liberal biased media source. Really..... Where were all the chicken hawks trying to discredit these publications when they were writing editorials in favor of the war effort or saying good things about Rumsfeld ??

"This hatchet job on Mr. Rumsfield is just another effort by the media to chip away at President Bush, and the GOP in general. It is, simply put, politically motivated"

Yea right... Perhaps those that have never heard of these publications will buy that. The situation in Iraq has slowly but steadily gotten WORSE. Every time the news tells you how it is getting worse some jerk off wants to blast the source and try to convince you dont pay attention to the rising violence and death toll. That it's just some media biase against Rumsfeld or Bush. Look guys the facts are the facts. I really dont give a damn if we just completed building the 4th school in 3 years near baghdad if on the same day 10 of my fellow Americans gone blown to little pieces from a car bomb. Wake up from your fantasy world and look at the facts.
I also love how this person has convinced himself that somehow Rumsfeld is the ONLY man who could have done this good of a job. That somehow despite the fact that things have been getting worse and worse, that is was the best we could do. Bull. Usually when someone is not getting the job done you replace them with someone else. Any idea how many Generals Lincon went through before the north won the civil war ?????

"President Bush has stood by him, as well he should, knowing that it is unlikely that there is anyone else who could do the job half as well.

I have a child serving in Iraq, and if I thought for one minute that there was anyone who would make a better SecDef that Donald Rumsfield, I too would be demanding that he step down."

Wow so what your telling me is that we are unable to do this. That this was the perfect war and no one else could have done half as good a job ???? Because if we dont change something and keep deciding to "stay the course" then we will continue to get the same results and those results are leading us closer and closer to loosing this thing.

[The Colonel 333]

Forty years ago when they sent my buddies and I into combat, we had a name for cowards like Rumpot and his sycophants..."ChickenHawks"! They never had the courage to stand up and be counted, only the balls to lie, cheat and manipulate those of us who grew up believing in this great country. These draftdodging SOBs are doing the same thing all over again. When the elections are over, watch as they stick it to the Guard and Reserves and change the rules,....again....on the number of and length of tours. The Times is right to call these cowards out and demand their removal. S**tcan Rummy!

[RenegadeRows]

See ya later rumsfeld.

Bush names Gates to replace Rumsfeld - CNN.com

[glg]

yeah it looks like he's out of here. but by the same token are we shooting the messanger? if the boss is responsible why is the underling being sacrificed? why did it take a major shift in the election to suddenly tip the scales? personally I'm glad to see him go but I feel sorry for him. every bad decision made by the administration is now going to be dumped on him.

of course what's that old saying about 'paying the piper'....

[Jayhawkk]

I read the editorial, and found its conclusion to be absurd, to say the least.
So some retired generals don't like the way things are going. BFD! Their opinions are just that. Opinions. They are not gospel, and are of no more merit than anyone else's.

Your retired Generals are probably the ones with the most combat experience so I do value their opinions, for the most part, over joe blow.

They are in no danger of being court-martialed, demoted, losing their pension, or being punished in any other way, are they? No, of course not. Then why the cowardice? And that is precisely what they are, cowards.

Must be nice to say all this **** behind your job that doesn't castrate you for going against the grain. I'm sure some people had their agenda as most do. If I had a agenda to capture a rapist does me having an agenda automatically make it untrue?
Hell, you can recieve a lot of flack for saying something not politically acceptable. Most retired gens. are probably stillin the system somewhere.

[anabolicrhino]

yeah it looks like he's out of here. but by the same token are we shooting the messanger? if the boss is responsible why is the underling being sacrificed? why did it take a major shift in the election to suddenly tip the scales? personally I'm glad to see him go but I feel sorry for him. every bad decision made by the administration is now going to be dumped on him.

of course what's that old saying about 'paying the piper'....

This is a classic power elite move. When one of the old guard gets a little "long in the tooth", they send him out to pasture with a fat "scapegoat" tag, this is his last "official duty" for the "team". It is similar to when William Casey, the CIA director was dying, so they blamed Iran-Contra on him. Gates is the same guy who replaced Casey as Cia director in 1987. Nice bunch of fellas!!

[roadrage]

Rumsfelds not the only one taking the blame. Bush's approval rating is at 33%. The lowest of his term in office.

[anabolicrhino]

Rumsfelds not the only one taking the blame. Bush's approval rating is at 33%. The lowest of his term in office.

Cheney could be next. He will probably contract some mystery ailment, then retire to halliburton . This will be followed by the division of Iraq into three seperate states, which oddly enough is how it was about 100 years ago before British imperialism made its last stand... coincidence?... maybe, Bagdad will become the next Jerusalem?

[motive]

i dont know if anyone else mentioned this but rumsfield wanted to change military retirement to 30 yrs. lets see here ive been in the military for 5 years and ive been in the middle east 2 1/2 of those years.... sure ill retire after 15 years of sand! to hell with that

[Ron Jeremy]

We messed up big time going into Iraq. We can defeat any military but not a way of life. It is impossible to fight a war house to house. We see the terrorists as, well, terrorists. They see themselves as preserving their way of life (whatever that may be).

[Squeaks4ver]

No. it is impossible to conduct a war the way the liberals want us to. There is and never will be any such thing as a zero casualty war. We can and have totally defeated a nation's ways of life. We did it to japan with two bombs.

[DAdams91982]

No. it is impossible to conduct a war the way the liberals want us to. There is and never will be any such thing as a zero casualty war. We can and have totally defeated a nation's ways of life. We did it to japan with two bombs.

DAMN Squeaks... Im loving you more and more!!!!

Adams

[somewhatgifted]

We messed up big time going into Iraq. We can defeat any military but not a way of life. It is impossible to fight a war house to house. We see the terrorists as, well, terrorists. They see themselves as preserving their way of life (whatever that may be).

Finally a clue. the difference between power and force is why this wont end.

[anabolicrhino]

No. it is impossible to conduct a war the way the liberals want us to. There is and never will be any such thing as a zero casualty war. We can and have totally defeated a nation's ways of life. We did it to japan with two bombs.

So, I wonder why the USA just doesn't nuke Iraq?..and Iran?..and North Korea?...and Chavez?. It can't be the "radiation" thing, because they have been using depleated uranuim(DU) since 1991 and there really has only been maybe 40% of the USA military veterans that have any real health issues. The number of mutated Iraqi children that have been born without limbs and eyes is really no more that about 25%.

The Iraqi people should welcome their "way of life being defeated", then they can get on with their "economic boom" like the one that followed the nuclear bombs in Japan. Ingrates!!!

[Squeaks4ver]

Nuclear arms are just not needed just yet. With Japan, they were more dedicated to the cause and would have used every last man woman and child to fly their cherry blossom planes into our countries. In order to beat that type of cancer you must remove the whole social body part it has spread to. In the case of Iraq. We still have some time to do some local tomotherapy (spelling) solutions.

[somewhatgifted]

So, I wonder why the USA just doesn't nuke Iraq?..and Iran?..and North Korea?...and Chavez?. It can't be the "radiation" thing, because they have been using depleated uranuim(DU) since 1991 and there really has only been maybe 40% of the USA military veterans that have any real health issues. The number of mutated Iraqi children that have been born without limbs and eyes is really no more that about 25%.

The Iraqi people should welcome their "way of life being defeated", then they can get on with their "economic boom" like the one that followed the nuclear bombs in Japan. Ingrates!!!

Sweet poetic injustise. nice post.

[DAdams91982]

Sweet poetic injustise. nice post.

I guess.. if you consider spouting off made up number as fact. Michael Moore???

Adams

[somewhatgifted]

I guess.. if you consider spouting off made up number as fact. Michael Moore???

Adams

I like micheal moore b/c he questions his leadership, like i beleive any intelligent follower should do.

[DAdams91982]

I like micheal moore b/c he questions his leadership, like i beleive any intelligent follower should do.

WHAT??? you got to be ****ing kidding me. You like Micheal Moore? The fat piece of ****... that hacks up interviews, and rearranges ****, and puts it out to the people as "Fact/Documentry." He puts words in others peoples mouths, that said something COMPLETELY different.

Adams

[somewhatgifted]

WHAT??? you got to be ****ing kidding me. You like Micheal Moore? The fat piece of ****... that hacks up interviews, and rearranges ****, and puts it out to the people as "Fact/Documentry." He puts words in others peoples mouths, that said something COMPLETELY different.

Adams

If he was lying would he not be in court over his accusations/lies. Why such hatred, hatred is a negative emotion and bears heavy on the soul. It doesnt help you to hate anyone. And most americans are fat so why does he stand out for his obesity? Its his brain and testicular fortitude i admire. ok so your dont like mr. moore but why give george.w the benefit of the doubt. Its hard for you to be objective with your life on the line, it must be excrusiating to question your leader with many deaths occuring everyday. but with each death i grow incresingly suspicous why, why, why not too unlike mr. moore.

[DAdams91982]

If he was lying would he not be in court over his accusations/lies. Why such hatred, hatred is a negative emotion and bears heavy on the soul. It doesnt help you to hate anyone. And most americans are fat so why does he stand out for his obesity? Its his brain and testicular fortitude i admire. ok so your dont like mr. moore but why give george.w the benefit of the doubt. Its hard for you to be objective with your life on the line, it must be excrusiating to question your leader with many deaths occuring everyday. but with each death i grow incresingly suspicous why, why, why not too unlike mr. moore.

No he wouldnt... news crews do it all the time.... take an interview and hack it up to say something different. Watch Fahrenheit 9/11 then FahrenHype 9/11 or Celsius 411, and you will see so much deceit by moore its ridiculous. The other two play out the full interviews.. not hacks involved. It may not help to hate someone... but he is bottom of the human race in my eyes. I never said I gave G.W.B. benefit of the doubt.... I do believe in what we are doing, and will go back to the M.E. in a heartbeat the next time Im called upon to do so. There is alot of twisting going on from media. There is SO MUCH more to this story than you realize. Also with the deaths you say are totalling up... do you realize it is safer in a base in Iraq, than walking through say L.A.? Statistically speaking.

Ah nevermind.. this is why I stay out of these threads... being there, and believing whole heartedly in what is going on, seems to always be a conflict on this board in particular.

Adams Out

[somewhatgifted]

Well keep killing iraqis "in a heartbeat" and keep complainaing that everyone doesnt see it your way. Im not a soldier, im not american, but i do try to understand peoples actions. its also very frustrating to me...... If l.a is dangerous then why isnt the army helping there instead of killing iraqis who dont want you there. Put your self in the iraqi soldiers place what os he fighting for? his freedom, his family, for what he believes in. who is the good guy. War will not determine this as there is no right answer. this will end, nothing will change, except the graveyards will be full and bush and his buddies will be super rich from a now dead sadams oil money, i may be totally wrong, but from my unbiased perspective thats how it looks to me. not trying to stress you out but there is no easy way to say it, theres no right argument and im not goin gto change my opinion much like you wont change yours. I hope you find peace.

after some carefulll reflection i have decided i owe an apology. I am not a soldier and i am not in iraq i dont know what is going on is happening without me there and i cant ittelegently argue or banter with someone who has been/ is there. I apologize as i sit in the comfort of my home knowing i most likely wont lose my life over this issuse and should not speak negativley with someone who may. I should stay out of these threads as i really dont know that much and apologize for appearing ignorant, it wont be the last time either, but i am a learning human being. I wasnt drunk or drinking just mad but good call nonetheless.

[Dwight Schrute]

No he wouldnt... news crews do it all the time.... take an interview and hack it up to say something different. Watch Fahrenheit 9/11 then FahrenHype 9/11 or Celsius 411, and you will see so much deceit by moore its ridiculous. The other two play out the full interviews.. not hacks involved. It may not help to hate someone... but he is bottom of the human race in my eyes. I never said I gave G.W.B. benefit of the doubt.... I do believe in what we are doing, and will go back to the M.E. in a heartbeat the next time Im called upon to do so. There is alot of twisting going on from media. There is SO MUCH more to this story than you realize. Also with the deaths you say are totalling up... do you realize it is safer in a base in Iraq, than walking through say L.A.? Statistically speaking.

Ah nevermind.. this is why I stay out of these threads... being there, and believing whole heartedly in what is going on, seems to always be a conflict on this board in particular.

Adams Out

Go read "Bias" and "Arrogance" by Bernie Goldberg. There are MANY people that agree with you and can see the obvious.

Some choose to preach ideas from their comfortable, unoppresive environments, others tend to look at reality.

[Dwight Schrute]

this will end, nothing will change, except the graveyards will be full and bush and his buddies will be super rich from a now dead sadams oil money, i may be totally wrong,

Yeah, OPEC has nothing to do with it

I can see the Kool Aid is flowin...

[Dwight Schrute]

I like micheal moore b/c he questions his leadership, like i beleive any intelligent follower should do.

I almost spit out my coffee from that one.

[DAdams91982]

Go read "Bias" and "Arrogance" by Bernie Goldberg. There are MANY people that agree with you and can see the obvious.

Some choose to preach ideas from their comfortable, unoppresive environments, others tend to look at reality.

Wow... I just looked those up in Amazon.... HIGHLY intriguing reads. Got both on order. Thanks for the information.

I'm not one to usually play left v.s. right. But when someone calls something that alot of good comes from, nothing but sanctioned murder is just false, and ignorant. IMHO.

I can't wait for the reads to come in, definately look pretty powerful.

Adams

[DAdams91982]

after some carefulll reflection i have decided i owe an apology. I am not a soldier and i am not in iraq i dont know what is going on is happening without me there and i cant ittelegently argue or banter with someone who has been/ is there. I apologize as i sit in the comfort of my home knowing i most likely wont lose my life over this issuse and should not speak negativley with someone who may. I should stay out of these threads as i really dont know that much and apologize for appearing ignorant, it wont be the last time either, but i am a learning human being. I wasnt drunk or drinking just mad but good call nonetheless.

Its no problem SWG... I stopped posting when the "Killing Iraqis" confliction came up. Nothing good would have come from a response to that, since nothing but opinions, and conflicting emotion would have filled that post. As you can see why steering clear of these can be a big avoidance of conflict.

Adams

[somewhatgifted]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DAdams91982 again.

[Irish_Rogue]

Well keep killing iraqis "in a heartbeat" and keep complainaing that everyone doesnt see it your way. Im not a soldier, im not american, but i do try to understand peoples actions. its also very frustrating to me...... If l.a is dangerous then why isnt the army helping there instead of killing iraqis who dont want you there. Put your self in the iraqi soldiers place what os he fighting for? his freedom, his family, for what he believes in. who is the good guy. War will not determine this as there is no right answer. this will end, nothing will change, except the graveyards will be full and bush and his buddies will be super rich from a now dead sadams oil money, i may be totally wrong, but from my unbiased perspective thats how it looks to me. not trying to stress you out but there is no easy way to say it, theres no right argument and im not goin gto change my opinion much like you wont change yours. I hope you find peace.

after some carefulll reflection i have decided i owe an apology. I am not a soldier and i am not in iraq i dont know what is going on is happening without me there and i cant ittelegently argue or banter with someone who has been/ is there. I apologize as i sit in the comfort of my home knowing i most likely wont lose my life over this issuse and should not speak negativley with someone who may. I should stay out of these threads as i really dont know that much and apologize for appearing ignorant, it wont be the last time either, but i am a learning human being. I wasnt drunk or drinking just mad but good call nonetheless.

As for the why do Americans not secure their own towns, I have no idea. I have been an American for 13 years now and have asked that many times, why do we not help our own as much as we help other nations? I think, to me at least, the answer is simple, we as Americans if not shown it on the tele do not believe it is happening. Most Americans (my generation) have not grown up starving and poor and oppressed by another nation.
I hear you all, I am poor, and I am not rich. Unless you ate every 3rd day and there were no homeless shelters or free food, you were not poor. So we do not think that Americans cannot pick themselves up and do better, they can, sometimes they just need a helping hand. Why can we not secure our streets to make them safe?

We as Americans do need to help ourselves since helping the other nations is not helping us. Yes, I can say what I want about the wars, I have been to Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, Afghanistan and Iraq in combat for America and honestly what has it done for us as a nation? Are we safer, stronger more compassionate to our neighbors’, I think not. I love this country or I would not server her.

I can understand the true Iraqi that wants to stand and fight for his home and family, being a N. Ireland lad, I understand completely what it feels like to have another nation occupy your land amd force their laws on you. It is only normal to resist and fight back.

Sorry got of track! We are in the fight and now we must fix what we have helped cause in Iraq.

[anabolicrhino]

As for the why do Americans not secure their own towns, I have no idea. I have been an American for 13 years now and have asked that many times, why do we not help our own as much as we help other nations? I think, to me at least, the answer is simple, we as Americans if not shown it on the tele do not believe it is happening. Most Americans (my generation) have not grown up starving and poor and oppressed by another nation.
I hear you all, I am poor, and I am not rich. Unless you ate every 3rd day and there were no homeless shelters or free food, you were not poor. So we do not think that Americans cannot pick themselves up and do better, they can, sometimes they just need a helping hand. Why can we not secure our streets to make them safe?

We as Americans do need to help ourselves since helping the other nations is not helping us. Yes, I can say what I want about the wars, I have been to Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, Afghanistan and Iraq in combat for America and honestly what has it done for us as a nation? Are we safer, stronger more compassionate to our neighbors’, I think not. I love this country or I would not server her.

I can understand the true Iraqi that wants to stand and fight for his home and family, being a N. Ireland lad, I understand completely what it feels like to have another nation occupy your land amd force their laws on you. It is only normal to resist and fight back.

Sorry got of track! We are in the fight and now we must fix what we have helped cause in Iraq.

Helping the Iraqis help themselves is the best idea, although it does not seem to be the same one that the USA state department has planned!

I think the Iraqii people would be more receptive to USA "brand
help", if it were not being delivered in tanks.

The depleated uranium(DU) doesn't really "help" anyone, this will take alot of fixing!!!

[Dwight Schrute]

after some carefulll reflection i have decided i owe an apology. I am not a soldier and i am not in iraq i dont know what is going on is happening without me there and i cant ittelegently argue or banter with someone who has been/ is there. I apologize as i sit in the comfort of my home knowing i most likely wont lose my life over this issuse and should not speak negativley with someone who may. I should stay out of these threads as i really dont know that much and apologize for appearing ignorant, it wont be the last time either, but i am a learning human being. I wasnt drunk or drinking just mad but good call nonetheless.

Tasteful edit. Much respect.

[Dwight Schrute]

Wow... I just looked those up in Amazon.... HIGHLY intriguing reads. Got both on order. Thanks for the information.

I'm not one to usually play left v.s. right. But when someone calls something that alot of good comes from, nothing but sanctioned murder is just false, and ignorant. IMHO.

I can't wait for the reads to come in, definately look pretty powerful.

Adams

They are good reads. Bias outlines the problems, Arrogance outlines the solutions.

I haven't read his latest though:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/110-People-Who-Screwing-America/dp/0060761296/sr=8-1/qid=1168366465/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-3815036-3422504?ie=UTF8&s=books]Amazon.com: 110 People Who Are Screwing Up America: (and Al Franken Is #37): Books: Bernard Goldberg[/ame]

[The Colonel 333]

No. it is impossible to conduct a war the way the liberals want us to. There is and never will be any such thing as a zero casualty war. We can and have totally defeated a nation's ways of life. We did it to japan with two bombs.

Look I hate to bust your bubble here, but you sparked a whole debate off topic on this thread. So I feel the need to correct you. I don't know who got you blaming "liberals" for the failure in Iraq but they are one good spin doctor. The writing is on the wall and the evidence is all around you if you choose to actually look. This was a Republican President and a conservative/neo-conservative White House through and through. Couple that with a Republican led Congress and a Republican lead Senate that did not deny one single thing the pentagon or the white house asked for. So how is it that everyone calling the shots are conservative and (NO ONE is telling them no) somehow the liberals are to blame. Interesting logic. Sorry guy if you want to find blame for why the war in Iraq and the war on terror are going so crappy you only need to look at who is in charge of managing them.
So where is the "kool aid" talk on this one ?

[somewhatgifted]

Study Claims Iraq's 'Excess' Death Toll Has Reached 655,000 - washingtonpost.com

BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Afghanistan's civilian deaths mount

[Dwight Schrute]

Look I hate to bust your bubble here, but you sparked a whole debate off topic on this thread. So I feel the need to correct you. I don't know who got you blaming "liberals" for the failure in Iraq but they are one good spin doctor. The writing is on the wall and the evidence is all around you if you choose to actually look. This was a Republican President and a conservative/neo-conservative White House through and through. Couple that with a Republican led Congress and a Republican lead Senate that did not deny one single thing the pentagon or the white house asked for. So how is it that everyone calling the shots are conservative and (NO ONE is telling them no) somehow the liberals are to blame. Interesting logic. Sorry guy if you want to find blame for why the war in Iraq and the war on terror are going so crappy you only need to look at who is in charge of managing them.
So where is the "kool aid" talk on this one ?

Its really simple, protests from opposing views causes governing bodies, especially those that get elected and want to get reelected, bow to public opinion. Once governing bodies bow to public opinion, policy in a war in no longer run for the cause to win, its run to satisfy the changing views of the public for fears of NOT getting reelected.

When wars are run by public opinion and those wanting reelection, you lose. Politicians and especially the public shouldn't run wars, the military should and that applies to Bush as well. The baby boomers found that out with Vietnam, this current generation will learn the lesson with this one.



If World War 2 was run with the same rules and regulations as this war (PC and public opinion), we would have never won. Those rules are strongly enforced by leftist and secular (PC obsessed) groups. If 100 civilians die in a bombing run, they cry "murderers".

You want to see what a real 4 year does?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004619.html

[Dwight Schrute]

Sorry guy if you want to find blame for why the war in Iraq and the war on terror are going so crappy you only need to look at who is in charge of managing them.
So where is the "kool aid" talk on this one ?

That's the difference. Liberals look to blame first, come up with a solution last. In this situation, they still haven't done the latter.

Liberals weren't against this action when Clinton wanted to go to war.






Sorry, everyone was at fault, but some people change their mind once election time comes. On the eve of war, they loved it. Once it got dirty, they run.

"Every nation has to either be with us, or against us. Those who harbor terrorists, or who finance them, are going to pay a price."

Senator Hillary Clinton (Democrat, New York)
September 13, 2001

"It is the duty of any president, in the final analysis, to defend this nation and dispel the security threat. Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for 12 years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly, I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so."

Senator John Kerry (Democrat, Massachusetts)
Statement on eve of military strikes against Iraq