Makes you think....

Big Matt · 10-28-2006, 01:31 PM

Just something I thought of recently....

I keep hearing people harp on the death toll of American Service people in Iraq and using it as a reason to "cut and run". ..... By recent count it has been determined that over 2300 have been killed in combat since the initial invasion....and there are other deaths attributed to other causes.

I am sad when 1 life is lost let alone thousands....and I want you all to know that I am not belittling the death of any of our service people....I pray for all of them...the fallen and those still fighting for us........but I want to make a point.....

People keep touting this number as a reason to get out of Iraq. That the cost is too high and we should pick up and leave.....

....strangely these same people don't apply this to our own country....

I live just outside of Philadelphia and in the same time period as the Iraq War...there have been over 1650 murders....we are on pace to break 400 murders in 2006 alone.....

.....In the USA as a whole between 2003 & 2005 there have been 49,368 murders.....we are on pace to have between 16,000 to 17,000 more in 2006.

By the logic of people who throw around the number of 2000+ US casualties as a reason for leaving Iraq....I would have them look at the numbers listed above and ask them....is the price too high?....should we cut and run out of Philadelphia? Should we abandon the USA all together and go live in Greenland?

The cost of freedom and peace in the world is "priceless".........regardless of how we wound up in Iraq the cost of leaving without accomplishing our goals will be devastating both now and for generations to come......or maybe there won't be a generation to come if we leave? Just think about it.

Mulletsoldier · 10-28-2006, 01:52 PM

I think you may be missing the point that many (not all) of the people pushing for changes in Iraq are the same kind of groups that have been pushing for progressive social change on the North American continent for years.

tsc · 10-28-2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Matt

The cost of freedom and peace in the world is "priceless".........regardless of how we wound up in Iraq the cost of leaving without accomplishing our goals will be devastating both now and for generations to come......or maybe there won't be a generation to come if we leave? Just think about it.

How can you attach a cost to an event or state in time that has never existed? and can't exist at this point in humanity's developement? The world has never been at peace, it never will be. It wasn't before we invaded, it isn't now, and it won't be regardless of the outcome at Iraq. What is the goal of Iraq?? to push our form of government and moral beliefs? To let them have the same culture and political system that has led to 15,000 murders a year (using your numbers)? It seems to me that our own problems should be of the utmost importance and concern, and until we prove to the world that we can fix our own issues, we shouldn't be trying to dictate how everyone else behaves.

If you are more likely to be killed on your own city streets, what effect does a short lived "free Iraq" have on you? How does it make you safer? How does it save our freedom? Can you honestly say that Iraq was ever a true threat to us?

As to the main topic, if someone believes the war is wrong, any life wasted there is reason to pull out. If the number is getting higher and higher, all the more reason to use that fact. If you believe we are right in being there, naturally you are going to say that casualties a fact of war and however bad it is still justifiable. Its like a couple playing at a slot machine; one doesn't want to bet at all because they think its a quaranteed loss and waste of money. The other thinks its a definitely win so doesn't mind spending another dollar, and another and another. If you know the payoff is bigger than what is waged, you can justify it. If its a possibility to come out ahead it than it might be worth it to some. If its an incredible long shot, than its almost a given that you will continue to lose til you just give up.

TSC

**mp5man1** · 10-29-2006, 10:34 PM

I understand what you’re saying about the homicide rate and the death rate in Iraq. I really don’t know what one has to do with the other but it’s true that we have a lot of murders in this country. As far as Iraq and our being there for the Iraqi people so that they can have a free democratic country or what ever reason we give for being there I think it’s time to bring our guys home. It has nothing to do with cut and run. Hell we kicked their ass and gave it a try to rebuild but the way our troops are being attacked I say the hell with the place.

I don’t care about them nearly as much as I do our troops. I care about my friend Robyn Butterfield whose son was just killed there. I meet him before he left. He was a customer of mine. I wonder how many of my customers didn’t make it home. I donated a lot of money to Operation Solder when the money went for helping injured soldiers. Now it’s brotherhood of the badge. They send old gear to the Iraqi Police. Not a dime to injured soldiers since last November. I wish the Iraqi police all the luck in the world but I worry about our injured soldiers. I don’t know. I know this maybe wasn’t the meaning of the original posting. I supported Pres Bush from the beginning but I want our troops home now.

In 5 years after things have settled down over there and they are training new terrorist to come here we can go back and kick their asses again. But for now let them deal with their problems. Maybe then we can focus on the homicides in America then.

glg · 10-30-2006, 04:36 PM

Deja Vu - Vietnam

Been there done that, my father was there, my uncle was there. thankfully we all came home in one (physical) piece.

We are attempting to insert a sociopolitical system where there is strong resistance from the entire region, not just in the country (Iraq) itself. Why do people think that the surrounding theocracies and totalitarian regimes will let it succeed. It would be toppled the moment we leave. Which begs the question - are we ever going to leave?

anabolicrhino · 10-30-2006, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glg

Deja Vu - Vietnam

Been there done that, my father was there, my uncle was there. thankfully we all came home in one (physical) piece.

We are attempting to insert a sociopolitical system where there is strong resistance from the entire region, not just in the country (Iraq) itself. Why do people think that the surrounding theocracies and totalitarian regimes will let it succeed. It would be toppled the moment we leave. Which begs the question - are we ever going to leave?

I think if we examine the official reasons for invading Iraq(prevent Saddam from using his WMDs to terrorize the world). It would seem to be mission accomplished. The Bush administration developed a secondary goal of establishing a US like-democracy, which may never happen. This war could have been a slam dunk for the US," in and out". Bush would have been a legend. The Iraqiis could have figured something out themselves that would atleast be as successful as the current regime. Now, it would seem that this will be a "never ending" conflict. It has become a political and human meat grinder. When we consider all that we learned about the true motives of the US /Vietnam conflict., it is a pre-drawn conclusion that the reason we are still in Iraq is because of some fabrication of the actual truth. I won't mention oil and geo-political military dominance because that is too easy and the US already had that before the war. So until someone can address the true US motives, the soldiers will be fighting in Iraq. May god have mercy on their souls.

**ryano** · 10-31-2006, 02:37 AM

Pull out now and we look like bigger chumps. If we pull out there will be chaos. Jobs all ready started. It has to be finished. "Oh well we tried now lets go home" doesnt cut it.

glg · 10-31-2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryano

Pull out now and we look like bigger chumps. If we pull out there will be chaos. Jobs all ready started. It has to be finished. "Oh well we tried now lets go home" doesnt cut it.

The question is how do we define "finished"?

At what point will the "diminishing returns" kick in. When will the lives of our people be worth more than they (Iraq) are willing to pay?

I guess it is a moot point as I don't feel they contribute anything worthwhile now and definitely do not value our contribution or "occupation".

Not all parts of the world want our sociopolitical method of governance and economy. Especially given the radically different theocratic views of the prdominant religions in the area.

I just can't wrap my mind around a positive outcome for us or them.

And I don't belive in spending good money after bad. there are many time in life and history that one has to move beyond or away from a bad situation and either regroup/refocus or just give it up and find a more winable cause.

**mp5man1** · 10-31-2006, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glg

I just can't wrap my mind around a positive outcome for us or them.

And I don't belive in spending good money after bad. there are many time in life and history that one has to move beyond or away from a bad situation and either regroup/refocus or just give it up and find a more winable cause.

Agreed. There will be no positive outcome.

**ryano** · 10-31-2006, 09:36 PM

I just feel like we have made a commitment and we need to follow through. I believe the major majority of the Iraqi people want a democracy and are willing to work and die towards this goal. To just bomb the hell out of a country and just say see ya just feeds into the sterotype a good part of the middle east has of us. This is going to take time.

glg · 11-02-2006, 10:04 AM

I don't believe they care about a "democratic" government or there wouldn't be so many militias (sponsored by religious figures) going around killing each other. I believe they just want a more stable government (regardless of the form) that they feel will let them live the way they want (not necessarily the way their neighbor wants). Life, liberty and the pusuit of happiness are not arranged in the order that most find they want. Life and happiness can supplant liberty if security needs to replace liberty. We are experiencing that here and now.

There is a Benjamin Franklin quote that I can't remember that relates to this and how he felt about security supplanting freedoms.

**mp5man1** · 11-02-2006, 11:07 AM

It is a very hard call. Being close friends with a family who lost their son who was also my customer and also being a vet I have a hard time with this. I agree we need to get the job done but I think just getting some calm over there will be enough. I don't see them having a democratic style of governemnt. No matter what happens I hope that our troops can all come home someday in one piece. That at least I think is something we call all agree on.

**ryano** · 11-02-2006, 12:43 PM

Agreed

**spatch** · 11-02-2006, 11:05 PM

Speaking of murder rate- I heard a political bash on the radio saying that some guy is going to "turn this country into amsterdam." There murder rate is much lower than ours, so I hope he does.

"Crime complaints and the murder rate in Amsterdam were down for the fifth year in a row in 2004. Amsterdam’s murder total was 27, compared to approximately 200 for a U.S. city such as Dallas, which is comparable in population to Amsterdam."

And EVERY drug is legal there. As soon as the piles of dung that we call politicians get there heads out of there ass and their minds off their wallets we can have this same murder rate.

By the way, all those who say nothing good ever comes of war... drink tea with your pinky out and watch soccer this weekend instead of football because that is what you would be doing if not for a war.

Nullifidian · 11-10-2006, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spatch

By the way, all those who say nothing good ever comes of war... drink tea with your pinky out and watch soccer this weekend instead of football because that is what you would be doing if not for a war.

That was a revolution, not an invasion.

One cannot invade a country to start a revolution. A revolution must come from within. If the people don't have the desire to go through with their own revolution and do what is necessary, then no one should attempt to push them into one. Which is what we did.

The reaction? Now they hate us even more.

KNOW WHEN TO FOLD. We have 10 high at the table and we've jacked the pot up to 300 billion. It'll double that before long and you can't win with 10 high when the other guy has a full house. Know when to cut your losses.

This whole "stay the course" crap is what compuslive gamblers do. If they start losing, they can't stop now, they've got to come out ahead. So they keep gambling until they've lst everything. That's what "stay the course" yields in a hopeless situation like this one. You'd think we might have learned something from Vietnam.

The thing is, Bush and Cheney want to stay as long as possible because every minute there is making them and their Haliburton buddies huge huge huge profits. "Look bad"? B&C couldn't care less. They're in it for the money. If Bush were really a Christian, he'd be focused on helping the poor and needy, instead of lining his pockets with blood money.

**Frank Costanza** · 11-11-2006, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nullifidian

The thing is, Bush and Cheney want to stay as long as possible because every minute there is making them and their Haliburton buddies huge huge huge profits. "Look bad"? B&C couldn't care less. They're in it for the money. If Bush were really a Christian, he'd be focused on helping the poor and needy, instead of lining his pockets with blood money.

Yeah, they could care less about human lives. They would sell your mother out for a dollar.

Seriously, get off the Kool Aid. You already made a fool out of yourself agreeing that the troops are less educated and now you just spit your venom once again about "blood money".

Go spew your nonobjective and anger filled rants somewhere else.

**Jayhawkk** · 11-11-2006, 10:11 AM

I'm glad i kept passing this thread.