What "ACTUALLY" happened on 911.... - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 3

What "ACTUALLY" happened on 911....

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  1. jarhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    ehhh.. I think the sissyfication of America is complete then.. We are rendered to only whine about crap on the internet, and no longer have what it takes to defend our rights and freedom any more.

    I think you are just covering up for all those who are all talk and no walk.

    At least those of us who are not afraid of giving up some rights temporarily in war time, have the guts to die for what we believe in.

    I forgot who said this. "A man who has nothing that he treasures so much as to give his life for, is a miserable creature, who can only be kept free by the exertion of others."

    There comes a time in his life, when a man can look himself in the mirror and knows for certain if there is something he is willing to risk his life for. It is a question, that only you yourself know the true answer. You haven't lived until you have faced certain death. You haven't lived until you have actually gone through giving up on your life, and live to tell about it another day. Once you have done that, everyday above ground, is a good day.

    To say that the days of revolution are gone, is a cop out. If the government has actually killed 3000 people, then there would be nothing that could prevent it from killing another 3000, and another 3000. No one would be safe. It could happen tomorrow, next week, next month. You could die. Your family could die. I could die. My loved ones could die.

    I for one, WILL NOT want to live like a coward waiting to be snuffed out any time.

    But alas.... not to be distressed. Seeing how the conspiracy nuts are worry free and carefree, makes you wonder why they are not the least bit concerned about the government pulling another 911. Shouldn't they be scared sh1tless already? Why the hell they walk about totally care free? Well, duh!!!!!!!!!!! Obviously they don't believe for one second that the government is going to pull another 911 on them any time soon. Now, why is that?????? What are they sooooo confident???

    Ok, the truth is...we are low on pitchforks and torches where I live. Otherwise the whitehouse would be in trouble.

  2. Jayhawkk's Avatar
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    At least those of us who are not afraid of giving up some rights temporarily in war time, have the guts to die for what we believe in.
    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
    And you don't have to give up RIGHTS because they are just that. You have to give up luxuries and conveniences for safety and security but never freedoms or rights.
  3. anabolicrhino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    pffff... anti gun, politically correct, criminal loving, rapist loving, left wing extremist political hacks want to ban gun. Like that is anything new. That is a night and day difference from your claim that the government wants to ban the citizen from owning weapons.
    No, I don't think the current administration of the governmet-as established on 01/20/2005 will take away anyones weapons...But usually after an extremely controversial polarizing group such as the Bush administration ends its term, a new reformist administration will take its place and in the name of peace will legislate some form of disarmerment in the name of peacful reform... I mean I hope not, but this is the pattern of things.
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    yeap.. it is very important to get your post cycle therapy right! Whew!!

    Another thing. Conspiracy theory enhances their self esteem b/c it gives them this 'member of a secret elite group' delusion. It allows them to pretend that they are part of very elite group of superior intellect. THEY know things that the rest of us idiots don't. It makes them feel better about their lousy lives.
    Guilty as charged your honor! I just didn't have the audacity to say it!(or post it) Thank you!

    Now that tryouts are over and all the players know their positions, lets play ball!
  5. anabolicrhino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNorris
    A Delusional Paranoid Conspiracy Theorist trying to dismiss the truth with another conspiracy theory

    Doesnt change the fact its all REAL SCIENCE. That May show his motiviation to help crush the theories floating around my feeble minded freaks like you. Doesnt fact that you are a freak and your theories are for pathetic losers. Enjoy your ****ty life. You really have to be a loser to believe in all those 911 theories.
    A conspiracy is simply a plan that dictates that only certain people have knowledge to the actual working details. A conspiracy generally benifits the people who design its plan. Seceret plans have been around for ever, why would it be impossible for anyone who is "money motivated" not to be alligned with any plan that would bnng them bilions of dollars???

    The only thing that would prevent someone from taking part in the conspiracy would be personal integrity and a sense of public duty, which is what you would hope to find in our political leaders, but history tends to disprove any burden of these qualities. Motive and opportunity just needs the right plan to be successful. Just because you didn't think of it first doesn't make it impossible.
    The key to a good conspiritorial effort is never tell anyone the truth and discredit all challengers by attacking not only their theories but their credibility though active character slander.
    Another tool of the conspirators is to mix truth with lies reported from a faux third party that supposes itsell as part of the conspiracy or even part of the opposition. These are the tools of
    the game. They obfuscate the general discussion and cause a polarizing effect which distracts from the actual task of uncovering the conspiracy. Many fine examples can be found in this thread.
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    Alex Jones is but one source of questioning the discrepancies of 911. He cant be any worse then Bill Oreilly or the fox network.

    Unlike many, I listen to all sides. I have listened to the mainstreams media, the made for TV shows, I have read the 911 Commission Report, The Fema report and many, many, many other sources.

    There are problems in the official story. If a person has eyes, ears and the capacity to reason. It isnt hard to see.

    Thank you for the insults. This is what gives you self worth. Not me. Good Day.
  7. Iron Warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68SS
    Alex Jones is but one source of questioning the discrepancies of 911. He cant be any worse then Bill Oreilly or the fox network.
    Of course O'Reilly is going to have his biases but Jones blames the gov't for everything and does not have concrete proof. He would be a lot more appealing if he didn't try to be a preacher and just pour out blame left and right. I didn't mean to insult you I meant that your argument lost credibility with me because you used him as a source.
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    I tend to think Alex is a tad high strung as well. Regardless, he does have some, actually alot of truth to his ranting.

    The Federal ID card. This is not something out of a sci fi movie. I would almost guarantee something like this in the next decade.

    The fraternities of money. That goes without saying. They are there. Do what he states? Who knows?

    Whether you love him or hate, He makes some very valid points on 911 discrepencies.

    Like i said before, he is too hyper for me. I dont like the preacher approach either. But he offers another alternative source of information that is comparable to maintstream media(FOX). IMO of course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68SS
    I tend to think Alex is a tad high strung as well. Regardless, he does have some, actually alot of truth to his ranting.

    The Federal ID card. This is not something out of a sci fi movie. I would almost guarantee something like this in the next decade.

    The fraternities of money. That goes without saying. They are there. Do what he states? Who knows?

    Whether you love him or hate, He makes some very valid points on 911 discrepencies.

    Like i said before, he is too hyper for me. I dont like the preacher approach either. But he offers another alternative source of information that is comparable to maintstream media(FOX). IMO of course.
    ...his particular Texas-drawl just lends itself to that fire and brimstone type of preachin'...
  10. Big Matt's Avatar
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    Everyone knows that 9-11 was totally rigged!

    It goes right along with.....Woodrow Wilson plotting the assasination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.......

    ......Truman conspiring with the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor........

    ....oh by the way........the moon landing was fake and the holocaust never happened either!


    (Hopefully everyone knows I'm being sarcastic!)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Here's some food for thought:

    Conspiracy's based on this photo......idea's anyone?


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Alright! Alright! Bush is behind everything! Now please stop!
  11. BioHazzard's Avatar
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    This quote of Uncle Benny, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety " is dangerously out of touch with reality.

    I got a better one. Those who are unwilling to tolerate temporary inconvenience made necessary by the circumstances of war, will end up 6 ft under, and have all their rights, security and freedom safety, secured inside a ****ing coffin!!
  12. Jayhawkk's Avatar
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    Essential Liberty /=temporary inconvenience

    You're confusing the two. Almost nothing in our society is given up temporarily when we're dealing with liberties.
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    And what 'essential liberties' have the war on terror infringed upon? What 'essential liberties' has anyone lose lately? How has our way of life being 'essentially' restricted?

    That question has been asked. And the answer, IIRC, is ehh... some thing to the nature of 'not really', but 'potential of abuse'... Thus, essentially, my point is correct, afterall.
    Last edited by Jayhawkk; 09-19-2006 at 12:15 AM.
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    I think it's argued on the slippery slope idea. The wire tapping without a warrant is one that comes to mind.


    To me this is how we fight it...

    We keep borders and aliens strictly monitored. We provide real security not dog and pony shows with no backbone. We stop worrying about stopping traffic or pissing people off and we search like we're supposed to. We do real background checks with enough personel to keep the "waivers" from being issued while people are able to work for years before being actually checked.
  15. BioHazzard's Avatar
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    The slippery slope argument has been over used to justify the failure to use common sense.

    Besides, it is the same old tune. People (in general, and not you specifically) go bellyaching about their rights been taken away. When pressed to state which rights and how their lives are affected, they backpedalled to 'potential of abuse' and the tried and true, catch all fig leaf of the slippery slope argument.

    The warrantless wiretapping is specifically used in cases of incoming calls from known foreign terrorists. Gee.. how dare the government violating the privacy rights of foreign terrorists and domestic sleeper cells......
  16. Jayhawkk's Avatar
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    I'm a cop man. I'm not bellyaching because i'm rarely affected. I flash a badge and I just move through.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    The slippery slope argument has been over used to justify the failure to use common sense.

    Besides, it is the same old tune. People (in general, and not you specifically) go bellyaching about their rights been taken away. When pressed to state which rights and how their lives are affected, they backpedalled to 'potential of abuse' and the tried and true, catch all fig leaf of the slippery slope argument.
    People "bellyache" about their rights being taken away because men died in order to establish them(and not in Iraq). That is why they are precious to some people, and that is why what is trivial to you means a whole lot more to someone else.
  18. Jayhawkk's Avatar
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    I like that reply jarhead.
  19. BioHazzard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead
    People "bellyache" about their rights being taken away because men died in order to establish them(and not in Iraq). That is why they are precious to some people, and that is why what is trivial to you means a whole lot more to someone else.
    Here we go, in circle again.

    For the 10 millionth times. What rights have you lost lately, Jarhead? How has your life being 'essentially' wrecked? Please enlighten us.

    If you are a drug dealers, a terrorist, or some guy who is trying to hide asset from judgement, yeah, I know what rights you are missing now. (I can imagine why the Dems are so peeved... )
    Last edited by Jayhawkk; 09-19-2006 at 12:14 AM.
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    If you are a drug dealers, a terrorist, or some guy who is trying to hide asset from judgement, yeah, I know what rights you are missing now.
    You have nothing to hide so if I just so decide to run your tags while behind you and see that you have a few run ins and decide to pull you over and then just so decide to search your vehicle and then your house and take your home computer. You have nothing to hide, right? So this wouldn't bother you?


    I don't have anything to hide and I still wouldn't let a cop search my car or house without a warrant.
  21. jarhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    Here we go, in circle again.

    For the 10 millionth times. What rights have you lost lately, Jarhead? How has your life being 'essentially' wrecked? Please enlighten us.

    If you are a drug dealers, a terrorist, or some guy who is trying to hide asset from judgement, yeah, I know what rights you are missing now. (I can imagine why the Dems are so peeved... )
    You just don't get it, but that's not suprising. The rights we still have have to be protected because when you lose them you don't get them back. You don't have to wreck somebodies life for it to be important. Just because I personally have not experienced the loss of these rights does not mean that there isn't someone in this country who has. And even if it's just one, all of us as americans should be concerned. Because the core values of this nation are important to some people, that does not make them inferior to or less intelligent than you.
    Last edited by Jayhawkk; 09-19-2006 at 12:14 AM.
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    Go night. Running around in circle, makes me feel dizzy..
  23. anabolicrhino's Avatar
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    I have noticed this in NYC where I have lived since 1990.
    1991 through9-11-2001 soliders with M -16s = 0
    9-11-2001-present = at least 4 armed soldiers in all tranportation hubs.

    Just a temporary change???

    a military show of force in a city with thousands of armed cops, what's the point?

    Intimidation of the opposition, but who's the opposition?
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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicrhino

    Intimidation of the opposition, but who's the opposition?
    I ask my self this everyday, as the strangle hold tightens, while the choices and power an individual has seem to grow smaller. As a single caucasian man with a child out of wed lock its an uphill battle to see your child, now why does the government have their head up my azz. Well why is the current administration using laws passed for the nations safety being used to spy on and controll its own people in a free democracy. The prescence of fear and constant threat keep people buying into bushes stupid war ideas. Honestly i cant understand what the hell is going on. I mean the war is happening for a reason but how the hell is this the right answer. why are the husseins dead and the bin ladens runing free, why not saudi arabia, why halliburton, why cant i have toothpaste on a plane, why do sooo many people strongly believe killing afgans and iraqis is the answer. War on terror is a joke to me and while people mock conspiracy theorists, all i can think is most of these theorys make more sense then the decisions being made every second for the last 5 years. If other countries came after and invaded the u.s because they have WMD's and pose a threat to democracy, how well would you respond when your family, home, life is destroyed because of your leader. how are you supposed to just go on, how far fetched is it that so many people rise up and try to do something about it. If you lived in iraq or afgan tell me if you had nothing left, and your rightous voice was lost in the exposions killing your people, that you wouldnt want to put a bomb on your back to stand up for what you believe in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    I think it's argued on the slippery slope idea. The wire tapping without a warrant is one that comes to mind.


    To me this is how we fight it...

    We keep borders and aliens strictly monitored. We provide real security not dog and pony shows with no backbone. We stop worrying about stopping traffic or pissing people off and we search like we're supposed to. We do real background checks with enough personel to keep the "waivers" from being issued while people are able to work for years before being actually checked.
    Wire tapping (warrantless) is handled through the FISA courts which has been around since 1978 under the Carter administration. The only reason you hear about it now is because its an old argument that the democrats seem to want to bring up because George Bush is using them (as did Clinton). They had no problem with this under the Clinton administration. So the same things people are complaining about now have been going on for over 20 yrs. under numerous administrations. Its a joke.

    FISA has been challenged several times in lower courts and has been found constitutional.
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    Quote Originally Posted by somewhatgifted
    I ask my self this everyday, as the strangle hold tightens, while the choices and power an individual has seem to grow smaller. As a single caucasian man with a child out of wed lock its an uphill battle to see your child, now why does the government have their head up my azz. Well why is the current administration using laws passed for the nations safety being used to spy on and controll its own people in a free democracy. The prescence of fear and constant threat keep people buying into bushes stupid war ideas. Honestly i cant understand what the hell is going on. I mean the war is happening for a reason but how the hell is this the right answer. why are the husseins dead and the bin ladens runing free, why not saudi arabia, why halliburton, why cant i have toothpaste on a plane, why do sooo many people strongly believe killing afgans and iraqis is the answer. War on terror is a joke to me and while people mock conspiracy theorists, all i can think is most of these theorys make more sense then the decisions being made every second for the last 5 years. If other countries came after and invaded the u.s because they have WMD's and pose a threat to democracy, how well would you respond when your family, home, life is destroyed because of your leader. how are you supposed to just go on, how far fetched is it that so many people rise up and try to do something about it. If you lived in iraq or afgan tell me if you had nothing left, and your rightous voice was lost in the exposions killing your people, that you wouldnt want to put a bomb on your back to stand up for what you believe in.
    Please read the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty then please go over FISA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    Essential Liberty /=temporary inconvenience

    You're confusing the two. Almost nothing in our society is given up temporarily when we're dealing with liberties.
    Actually there are. As a cop those given rights give you authority in a situation. Every citizen in the United States gives up rights for the overall greater good and give the police the authority to infringe upon the rights of individuals, something an ordinary citizen will never have unless sworn in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead
    People "bellyache" about their rights being taken away because men died in order to establish them(and not in Iraq). That is why they are precious to some people, and that is why what is trivial to you means a whole lot more to someone else.
    The orginization that fights for those rights actually infringes upon the individual that joins that organization. Its accepted for the overall good and operation of the military as you know. This concept is also used in everyday life as a citizen of the United States and rights can be taken away constitutionally when warranted (or unwarranted according to FISA). There is nothnig within the current operation that infringes upon your rights of communication unless a FISA court rules you are a threat or intelligence sugests you are threat and there isn't enough time to get FISA approval. In that case the President has the right under FISA to authorize a wire tap and its subject to Congressional review. THe whole situation that bought this up WAS a congressional review of the NSA program in wihch the author of the FISA act said the President acted according to the law.

    "If a court refuses a FISA application and there is not sufficient time for the president to go to the court of review, the president can under executive order act unilaterally, which he is doing now," said Judge Allan Kornblum, magistrate judge of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Florida and an author of the 1978 FISA Act."
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  29. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    "If a court refuses a FISA application and there is not sufficient time for the president to go to the court of review, the president can under executive order act unilaterally, which he is doing now," said Judge Allan Kornblum, magistrate judge of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Florida and an author of the 1978 FISA Act."
    Wasn't Bush catching **** over this because he wasn't even trying to get the initial warrant? Personally I don't see a problem with it. Seems like monitoring enemy communications to me which as I understood it was common practice and accepted under law. That some of the enemies live inside the US is just a new development.
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    Actually there are. As a cop those given rights give you authority in a situation. Every citizen in the United States gives up rights for the overall greater good and give the police the authority to infringe upon the rights of individuals, something an ordinary citizen will never have unless sworn in.
    We have never been a truely free gov't nor will we ever be but that isn't my arguement. I've run check points the day after 911 that were initially ordered and when traffic backed up they were revoked. I've seen rules banning certain equipment in certain areas until it pissed off the right people then those new regulations found themselves null/void.

    Temporary inconveniance is have tight security check points. Essential freedoms are the right to not have your home searched on a whim without a warrant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by somewhatgifted
    I ask my self this everyday, as the strangle hold tightens, while the choices and power an individual has seem to grow smaller. As a single caucasian man with a child out of wed lock its an uphill battle to see your child, now why does the government have their head up my azz. Well why is the current administration using laws passed for the nations safety being used to spy on and controll its own people in a free democracy. The prescence of fear and constant threat keep people buying into bushes stupid war ideas. Honestly i cant understand what the hell is going on. I mean the war is happening for a reason but how the hell is this the right answer. why are the husseins dead and the bin ladens runing free, why not saudi arabia, why halliburton, why cant i have toothpaste on a plane, why do sooo many people strongly believe killing afgans and iraqis is the answer. War on terror is a joke to me and while people mock conspiracy theorists, all i can think is most of these theorys make more sense then the decisions being made every second for the last 5 years. If other countries came after and invaded the u.s because they have WMD's and pose a threat to democracy, how well would you respond when your family, home, life is destroyed because of your leader. how are you supposed to just go on, how far fetched is it that so many people rise up and try to do something about it. If you lived in iraq or afgan tell me if you had nothing left, and your rightous voice was lost in the exposions killing your people, that you wouldnt want to put a bomb on your back to stand up for what you believe in.
    I agree with all of what you just said. EVERY BIT OF IT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    Wasn't Bush catching **** over this because he wasn't even trying to get the initial warrant? Personally I don't see a problem with it. Seems like monitoring enemy communications to me which as I understood it was common practice and accepted under law. That some of the enemies live inside the US is just a new development.
    Yes but the point being that according to FISA, in times when not enough time is warranted then he doens't need to. Generally when you try to get a warrant for this you need a time and a date set. The FISA court only meets twice per week so if you have intelligence that tells you there is something going on tomorrow or the next day the President has the authorization to bypass this based on intelligence. HE is the only one who can do this. This is to circumvent the restricition placed upon someone that needs an exact date and time to listen on converstaions that would occur at a time when the FISA court is not meeting and this privelage is ONLY given to the President. It gives the option of acting now, in the moment.

    Democrats want to tie your hands even further saying you need a warrant for ALL wire tapping. What this does is take current intelligence off the table until a warrant is received. So if intelligence tells you something is about to happen at this moment, you can't do anything until you get a warrant.

    This is ALL subject for review under Congress so its almost impossible to get away withy anything. The called him out on the NSA program and Bush was within the law according to authors of FISA in wich a Democratic President signed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    Temporary inconveniance is have tight security check points. Essential freedoms are the right to not have your home searched on a whim without a warrant.
    Guess what? That's can happen with one single phone call and in certain states police can if they have enough evidence WITHOUT a warrant and its been that way for years.

    There is nothing with this current administration that even comes close to hampering or effecting your life in the least. If people are so upset about wire tapping then they should be up in arms over local laws about what your police can do because that takes away more rights that Bush ever will.

    ..but they would rather hate Bush.
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    There is nothing with this current administration that even comes close to hampering or effecting your life in the least. If people are so upset about wire tapping then they should be up in arms over local laws about what your police can do because that takes away more rights that Bush ever will.
    I don't blame bush in one bit. My earlier comment was directed at the situations surrounding him and when people would rather vote anybody but Bush regardless of his great ideas it becomes a threat to the whole party...

    My stance more falls in line with people actually wanting security vs. just wanting it when it doesn't inconveniance them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    I don't blame bush in one bit. My earlier comment was directed at the situations surrounding him and when people would rather vote anybody but Bush regardless of his great ideas it becomes a threat to the whole party...

    My stance more falls in line with people actually wanting security vs. just wanting it when it doesn't inconveniance them.
    Thats what you get when one party is basically in charge for 8 years.


    Its also election time, Bush will not be running again in 2008 so its also a chance to seperate yourself from the status quo since throughouth history the idea of "change" has elected more presidents than anything. The same thing happened with the first Bush and also Clinton. You can check it down through history.

    The media pounding on someone for 8 years takes it toll no matter how popular your policies are. Politician follow votes and votes are shaped by public perception which is heavily influenced on what is reported by the news and you don't need me to tell you how negative the news is to people in power.

    Its all politics and not much "truth". THe wire tapping issue is a joke because its the same thing thats been happenening for almost 30 years by our government. Nothing has changed except the democrats want to actually get some power back and its a good tactic to accuse the president of illegal acitons when they fully know its not. They are no better than the neo cons that want to bomb Iran tomorrow. Its politicans playing on your emotions to get votes across the board but the one guy that actually wants to DO something gets hammered by two parties trying to get re-elected. He definetly makes mistakes but he's not nearly as bad as poeople make him sound.

    Take everything they say with a grain of salt because its almost Novemeber and the votes are already being counted. Its a bunch of blustering bull**** and people like Mccain, Clinton, etc.. are already looking towards their 2008 Presidency. I like Mccain but its quite obvious how he's come out against certain policies when people finally understand he will running for President in 2008. Same goes for Clinton but she's 100x worse. She is the most power hungry person I've seen in a while. Politicians at their best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Thats what you get when one party is basically in charge for 8 years.


    Its also election time, Bush will not be running again in 2008 so its also a chance to seperate yourself from the status quo since throughouth history the idea of "change" has elected more presidents than anything. The same thing happened with the first Bush and also Clinton. You can check it down through history.

    The media pounding on someone for 8 years takes it toll no matter how popular your policies are. Politician follow votes and votes are shaped by public perception which is heavily influenced on what is reported by the news and you don't need me to tell you how negative the news is to people in power.

    Its all politics and not much "truth". THe wire tapping issue is a joke because its the same thing thats been happenening for almost 30 years by our government. Nothing has changed except the democrats want to actually get some power back and its a good tactic to accuse the president of illegal acitons when they fully know its not. They are no better than the neo cons that want to bomb Iran tomorrow. Its politicans playing on your emotions to get votes across the board but the one guy that actually wants to DO something gets hammered by two parties trying to get re-elected. He definetly makes mistakes but he's not nearly as bad as poeople make him sound.

    Take everything they say with a grain of salt because its almost Novemeber and the votes are already being counted. Its a bunch of blustering bull**** and people like Mccain, Clinton, etc.. are already looking towards their 2008 Presidency. I like Mccain but its quite obvious how he's come out against certain policies when people finally understand he will running for President in 2008. Same goes for Clinton but she's 100x worse. She is the most power hungry person I've seen in a while. Politicians at their best.


    AMEN!
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    heh, I actually agree 150% on that post and it's how I feel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Wire tapping (warrantless) is handled through the FISA courts which has been around since 1978 under the Carter administration. The only reason you hear about it now is because its an old argument that the democrats seem to want to bring up because George Bush is using them (as did Clinton). They had no problem with this under the Clinton administration. So the same things people are complaining about now have been going on for over 20 yrs. under numerous administrations. Its a joke.

    FISA has been challenged several times in lower courts and has been found constitutional.
    Not just being argumentative, because I think I understansd what you are trying to say but I think you've got it backwards. As I understand it ,Warrantless wiretapping is NOT handled by FISA. That(warrantless) is authorized by the president. FISA handles wiretapping thru warrants, which fisa grants at the request of the government, issuing a court order or warrant. Bush challenged FISA as an infringement of executive power. That is what he used to justify his warrantless spying program, as he admitted it did not follow FISA. And the problem is, as defined by FISA the president CAN do this as you mentioned(act without a warrant, only in the interest of national security) but only for the period of 1 year without going to congress. This had been going on, authorized by the president, possibly as early as 2000. All he had to do is follow the proper channels and go thru congress within the proper time frame, and THEN we wouldn't be talking about it.

    The Fisa that you talk about being around the last 20 years is not the same as today. The amendments over the last couple of years have changed it, and also tried to define what the president can and cannot do.

    I'd also like to add that many people were not pleased with what Clinton did. He amended it so that physical searches were added along with electronic surveillence. He also made it so that that the evidence gathered could be used in criminal courts, not just used soley for intelligence purposes. I think the reason we didn't hear as much about it was that it wasn't during the time of 9/11 and the patriot act etc., but it was a huge change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    The orginization that fights for those rights actually infringes upon the individual that joins that organization. Its accepted for the overall good and operation of the military as you know. This concept is also used in everyday life as a citizen of the United States and rights can be taken away constitutionally when warranted (or unwarranted according to FISA). There is nothnig within the current operation that infringes upon your rights of communication unless a FISA court rules you are a threat or intelligence sugests you are threat and there isn't enough time to get FISA approval. In that case the President has the right under FISA to authorize a wire tap and its subject to Congressional review. THe whole situation that bought this up WAS a congressional review of the NSA program in wihch the author of the FISA act said the President acted according to the law.

    "If a court refuses a FISA application and there is not sufficient time for the president to go to the court of review, the president can under executive order act unilaterally, which he is doing now," said Judge Allan Kornblum, magistrate judge of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Florida and an author of the 1978 FISA Act."

    What organization are you talking about?

    As far as there being nothing in the current operation that infringes upon my rights- The problem is that if a warrant is obtained thru fisa courts, there are requirements that must be met before surveilence is approved. However, if the President bypasses fisa, there are none. He could draw a name out of a hat basically. That's what some people have a problem with. Again, there are also supposed to be limits in place as to how long a surveillence program can go on before authorization must be obtained thru the fisa courts. Specifically one year. Bush had his program running for years before it was even leaked that it existed. There is a difference in the two routes which they could look at someone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead
    I think you've got it backwards. As I understand it ,Warrantless wiretapping is NOT handled by FISA. That(warrantless) is authorized by the president. FISA handles wiretapping thru warrants, which fisa grants at the request of the government, issuing a court order or warrant. Bush challenged FISA as an infringement of executive power. That is what he used to justify his warrantless spying program, as he admitted it did not follow FISA. And the problem is, as defined by FISA the president can do this(act without a warrant, only in the interest of national security) only for the period of 1 year without going to congress. This had been going on, authorized by the president, possibly as early as 2000. All he had to do is follow the proper channels and go thru congress within the proper time frame, and THEN we wouldn't be talking about it.

    Also there have actually been very few challenges to the constitutionality of FISA in the lower courts, with 2 finding it constitutional. One of the cases ruled that the president has an assumed executive power, based on the rulings of the previous 2 cases.

    The Fisa that you talk about being around the last 20 years is not the same as today. The amendments over the last couple of years have changed it, and also tried to define what the president can and cannot do.

    No, you have it wrong. Read it. He can go against the FISA COURTS, which is stated in FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act).

    " The path to FISA has two branches, political and judicial.

    The government had long maintained that it had extensive discretion to conduct wiretapping or physical searches in order to protect national security. In Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967), the Supreme Court acknowledged that the President had claimed special authority for warrantless surveillance in national security investigations, and explicitly declined to extend its holding to cases "involving the national security." Id. at 358 n. 23. Similarly, Congress in Title III stated that "nothing in Title III shall . . . be deemed to limit the constitutional power of the President to take such measures as he deems necessary to protect the United States against the overthrow of the Government by force or other unlawful means, or against any other clear and present danger to the structure or existence of the Government."

    This was enacted into FISA upon its creation so its been going for 30yrs, not since 2000 although the Bush haters won't ever acknowledge that fact.. Even the author of FISA stated BUSH was within the law. Yes there have been amendments...like the one Clinton authorized:

    "President Bill Clinton expanded the law in 1995 to include what is known as "black bag" searches of homes, which are executed while residents are away and without their knowledge."

    Uh oh....Bill Clinton would never do that?!?!?!?


    And yes, the Justice Department, under FISA, can conduct unwarranted survellaince for up to one year.



    ..but I'm sure you will find fault with that.
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