[judge-mental]

Very interesting read, matching my thoughts when I thought about the whys behind the war.

The Kremlin may be the main winner in the Lebanon war. Israel has been attacked with Soviet Kalashnikovs and Katyushas, Russian Fajr-1 and Fajr-3 rockets, Russian AT-5 Spandrel antitank missiles and Kornet antitank rockets. Russia’s outmoded weapons are now all the rage with terrorists everywhere in the world, and the bad guys know exactly where to get them. The weapons cases abandoned by Hezbollah were marked: “Customer: Ministry of Defense of Syria. Supplier: KBP, Tula, Russia.”

Ion Mihai Pacepa on Russia & War on Terror on National Review Online

In the mid 1970s, the KGB ordered my service, the DIE — along with other East European sister services — to scour the country for trusted party activists belonging to various Islamic ethnic groups, train them in disinformation and terrorist operations, and infiltrate them into the countries of our “sphere of influence.” Their task was to export a rabid, demented hatred for American Zionism by manipulating the ancestral abhorrence for Jews felt by the people in that part of the world. Before I left Romania for good, in 1978, my DIE had dispatched around 500 such undercover agents to Islamic countries. According to a rough estimate received from Moscow, by 1978 the whole Soviet-bloc intelligence community had sent some 4,000 such agents of influence into the Islamic world.

In the mid-1970s we also started showering the Islamic world with an Arabic translation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a tsarist Russian forgery that had been used by Hitler as the foundation for his anti-Semitic philosophy. We also disseminated a KGB-fabricated “documentary” paper in Arabic alleging that Israel and its main supporter, the United States, were Zionist countries dedicated to converting the Islamic world into a Jewish colony.

On September 11, 2001, President Vladimir Putin became the first leader of a foreign country to express sympathy to President George W. Bush for what he called “these terrible tragedies of the terrorist attacks.” Soon, however, Putin began moving his country back into the terrorist business. In March 2002, he quietly reinstituted sales of weapons to Iran’s terrorist dictator, Ayatollah Khamenei, and engaged Russia in the construction of a 1,000-megawatt nuclear reactor at Bushehr, with a uranium conversion facility able to produce fissile material for nuclear weapons. Hundreds of Russian technicians also started helping the government of Iran to develop the Shahab-4 missile, with a range of over 1,250 miles, which can carry a nuclear or germ warhead anywhere in the Middle East and Europe.

Iran’s current president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, had already announced that nothing could stop his country from building nuclear weapons, and he stated that Israel was a “disgraceful stain [on] the Islamic world” that would be eliminated. During World War II, 405,399 Americans died to eradicate Nazism and its anti-Semitic terrorism. Now we are facing Islamic fascism and nuclear anti-Semitic terrorism. The United Nations can offer no hope. It has not yet even been able to define terrorism. (should we have an impotent smiley for the UN?)

[OmarJackson]

I don't understand how the Russians, after the Beslan school massacre, haven't learned the kind of pain and suffering caused by the selling of weapons to terrorists and terrorist states.

[BioHazzard]

Originally Posted by OmarJackson

I don't understand how the Russians, after the Beslan school massacre, haven't learned the kind of pain and suffering caused by the selling of weapons to terrorists and terrorist states.

Probably for the same reasons that Israel did the following:

Israeli Phalcon for China Troubles Cohen Visit, The Estimate, April 7, 2000

Chinese Defence Today - Harpy Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV)

New Chinese Fighter Succeeds By Failing
"...It’s no accident that the J10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter..."


Another reason would be that the Israelis have proven to Putin that they are no friends of his. When Putin went after the Oligarchs who robbed and stole billions of Russian state assets, the Oligarchs fled to Israel and have been provided with both assistance and protection by the Israelis. When Putin asked for Israel's help in prosecuting these THIEVES, the Israelis gave Putin the finger salute, claiming that those thieves are under the protection of Israel's Law of Return. Putin was really peeved. That really soured the drink. Putin's attitude made quite a change since then. Soon, arms deal with the Syrians and the Iranians went on high gear.

We reap what we sow......

The stuffs the Israelis sold to the unscruptulous Chinese, will end up killing a lot Israelis, and even Americans......

[somewhatgifted]

Ah the bed is made, its nice and warm, now whos cold and tired enough to lie in it?

[BioHazzard]

Before our Israeli friends beat me on the head with it, let me point out that:

1. The Phalcon deal was cancelled, under ernormous American pressure.

2. The Harpy upgrade deal was also cancelled, and the parts sent back to Israelis for upgrade were confiscated from the Chinese. This was done after the American blocked Israel from participation in the F-35 program.

Israel bowed to the American because it gets so much foreign aid from the USA.

A fine testimony to the old dictum: He who has the gold, sets the rules.

[OmarJackson]

Bio, in response to your second post:

I am probably the biggest supporter of Israel on this board, but I would never bash for your opinions because I know you are well educated on the subject, and that all your claims are always backed up by verifiable facts. Unlike some that hate Israel either because of misinformation or blind disdain.

that said,
in regards to you first post:

first, China is not Iran. Not even close. China may be a thorn in the ass of the USA, but does not pose the same level of threat to the world as Iran. Iran is openly allied with internationally recognized terrorist groups, they vow to destroy Israel and anyone or any nation that stands with her. a Nuclear weapon is priority number one for Iran, which they will no doubt use if they are allowed to have one. Mutual Assured Destruction means nothing to a society that glorifies death and suicide. anyway, Iran is evil, China just wants to be a world power.

Secondly, fighter jet technology, radar-detecting UAVs, and airborne warning systems are hardly what the Russians are selling hezbollah via Iran. Katyushas loaded with ball bearings to cause maximum civilian casualties and physical pain does not amount to high-tech modern military devices.

UAVs, warning systems, and fighter jet technology are hardly terrorist devices, and never will be. Terrorists would love to get their hands on a modern warplane like an F-16 or J10 but they would never ever be able to afford it, nor would they ever have the know how to operate and maintain it. The other two are not offensive weapons.

There is no doubt that the Israeli's were entirely out of line in selling warfare technology to the Chinese, when explicitly told by the US not to. This is dissapointing to say the least. But again, China is not Iran, not until China's premier calls for the destruction of the US and genocide of Americans, and not until the chinese adopt a national religion that affirms this.

[BioHazzard]

Originally Posted by somewhatgifted

Ah the bed is made, its nice and warm, now whos cold and tired enough to lie in it?

Don't get me wrong. I am for the defence of the state of Israel.

But protecting the thieves who stole billions of state asset, just because they are Russian Jews, is moral bankruptcy.

So is selling weapons to the ChiCom whose openly stated intent and purpose, is to use them to sink the American Pacific fleet.

[OmarJackson]

Originally Posted by BioHazzard

Don't get me wrong. I am for the defence of the state of Israel.

But protecting the thieves who stole billions of state asset, just because they are Russian Jews, is moral bankruptcy.

admittedly i am not aware of this story, but thats the American media for you. I'll look into it.

[RenegadeRows]

Russia also sold venezuela and that crazed Hugo Chavez a bunch of warplanes last month, along with a crapload of Kalashnikovs last year. It's no secret actually.

[BioHazzard]

Originally Posted by OmarJackson

Bio, in response to your second post:

I am probably the biggest supporter of Israel on this board, but I would never bash for your opinions because I know you are well educated on the subject, and that all your claims are always backed up by verifiable facts. Unlike some that hate Israel either because of misinformation or blind disdain.

that said,
in regards to you first post:

first, China is not Iran. Not even close. China may be a thorn in the ass of the USA, but does not pose the same level of threat to the world as Iran. Iran is openly allied with internationally recognized terrorist groups, they vow to destroy Israel and anyone or any nation that stands with her. a Nuclear weapon is priority number one for Iran, which they will no doubt use if they are allowed to have one. Mutual Assured Destruction means nothing to a society that glorifies death and suicide. anyway, Iran is evil, China just wants to be a world power.

Secondly, fighter jet technology, radar-detecting UAVs, and airborne warning systems are hardly what the Russians are selling hezbollah via Iran. Katyushas loaded with ball bearings to cause maximum civilian casualties and physical pain does not amount to high-tech modern military devices.

UAVs, warning systems, and fighter jet technology are hardly terrorist devices, and never will be. Terrorists would love to get their hands on a modern warplane like an F-16 or J10 but they would never ever be able to afford it, nor would they ever have the know how to operate and maintain it. The other two are not offensive weapons.

There is no doubt that the Israeli's were entirely out of line in selling warfare technology to the Chinese, when explicitly told by the US not to. This is dissapointing to say the least. But again, China is not Iran, not until China's premier calls for the destruction of the US and genocide of Americans, and not until the chinese adopt a national religion that affirms this.

I understand where you are coming from. We are not at war with the Chinese and probably never will, God willing.

The Russians are arming rogue states that are openly and actively hostile to Israel and to the West.

I think we really blew it with the Russians. The Israelis didn't handle the Oligarch issues properly. The West has antagonized Putin and the Russians with the democracy issue. They were cooperative with us at first, but after they failed to get the reward expected, they have reverted back to their antagonist pariah status. They went back to compete for influence in the Middle East. We sell arms to one group of Arab states, much to the chagrin of our Israeli allies, I must admit, and the Russians hooked up with their old cold war allies, the pariah Arab rogue states.

As far as the Russians and ChiCom go, arming the rogue states in the Middle East, is 1, for the money, 2, for the influence.

Do they care if Israelis die or Westerners die? They have a rather simplistic view of things. The way they see it, if Iran ever sent a nuke into their territories, they would just turn the whole country into one giant plate of glass, and use that as an example for any other Islamo facists or roque states. They don't care about the lives of their own citizen. They certainly don't care about Israeli lives or Westerner lives.

If Iran or other Islamo facists blackmailed the west or Israel, well, why do they care? Let the West and Israel worry and deal with it. Sadly, such kind of thinking, is not fictional. There are some elements who believe that such issues work to their national interest. "Let your enemies/opponents/competition waste their resources and tie up their energy."

The irony is, both the Russians and the ChiComs have Islamic terrorism problem at their backyard.... The Islamo facists and the rogue states they are arming today, will lay an egg that comes home to roost, one day.

Shortsightedness or unintended consequence?

[BioHazzard]

Originally Posted by OmarJackson

admittedly i am not aware of this story, but thats the American media for you. I'll look into it.

Admittedly, while it is a matter of moral issue, it is just financial crimes. But from the greater scheme of things, it was a strategic blunder. Israel needs all the friends and allies it can get. Kicking sand onto Putin and Russia's face is just unwise. It is one thing to provide political asylum to dissidents. But harbouring thieves is another. It just doesn't do Israel any good. It also gives ammo to the Israel haters.

[BioHazzard]

My point in all these is, the Russian's action derives from their strategic decision to compete for influence in Middle East. B/c of the double standard the Israelis and the West have shown them, they just decided to return the favour. Yes, that is uncivilized and moral bankruptcy. That certainly sucks and I wish they were all more like the Dalai Lama and Mother Theresa instead.

The Chechens are a murderous thorn in their side. Instead of helping them, the west has been helping the Chechens. So, they see hypocracy. They don't see much difference between what their dealing with Syria and Iran, and what the west has been doing with their Chechen problem. While we can say the west is not arming the Chechen, they see Beslan, the Moscow Theater etc etc.....

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with what the Russian are doing in the Middle East. I just happen to think that, demonizing the Russians is not a productive strategy. The Soviet Communists were evil. There is no question about that. But the Russians today, can be influenced with a different approach.

The Russian do what they do, not because they hate the Jews or they hate the west. They are not the same as the Islamo facists. With the Russians, we can get them to control the bad apples among them. What we don't want to do, is to turn all the Russians into bad apples. Demonising them categorically, will have that unpleasant effect.

[Pioneer]

Originally Posted by BioHazzard

Probably for the same reasons that Israel did the following:

Israeli Phalcon for China Troubles Cohen Visit, The Estimate, April 7, 2000

Chinese Defence Today - Harpy Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV)

New Chinese Fighter Succeeds By Failing
"...It’s no accident that the J10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter..."


Another reason would be that the Israelis have proven to Putin that they are no friends of his. When Putin went after the Oligarchs who robbed and stole billions of Russian state assets, the Oligarchs fled to Israel and have been provided with both assistance and protection by the Israelis. When Putin asked for Israel's help in prosecuting these THIEVES, the Israelis gave Putin the finger salute, claiming that those thieves are under the protection of Israel's Law of Return. Putin was really peeved. That really soured the drink. Putin's attitude made quite a change since then. Soon, arms deal with the Syrians and the Iranians went on high gear.

We reap what we sow......

The stuffs the Israelis sold to the unscruptulous Chinese, will end up killing a lot Israelis, and even Americans......

the plans for the f-16 was not due to the Israelis. Chinese spies stole the whole damn thing. they even got their hands on the specific engine that drives the jet and were about to ship it back in a container untill US agents got em. ill try to find the article. might take a while, but ill find it.

EDIT: got it Popular Mechanics - China's Secret War

[The Colonel 333]

Very interesting read. Although not all that suprising.

"My point in all these is, the Russian's action derives from their strategic decision to compete for influence in Middle East. B/c of the double standard the Israelis and the West have shown them, they just decided to return the favour"
yep

"think we really blew it with the Russians. The Israelis didn't handle the Oligarch issues properly. The West has antagonized Putin and the Russians with the democracy issue. They were cooperative with us at first, but after they failed to get the reward expected, they have reverted back to their antagonist pariah status. They went back to compete for influence in the Middle East. We sell arms to one group of Arab states, much to the chagrin of our Israeli allies, I must admit, and the Russians hooked up with their old cold war allies, the pariah Arab rogue states".

Yep

"If Iran or other Islamo facists blackmailed the west or Israel, well, why do they care? Let the West and Israel worry and deal with it. Sadly, such kind of thinking, is not fictional. There are some elements who believe that such issues work to their national interest. "Let your enemies/opponents/competition waste their resources and tie up their energy."

The irony is, both the Russians and the ChiComs have Islamic terrorism problem at their backyard.... The Islamo facists and the rogue states they are arming today, will lay an egg that comes home to roost, one day"

and yes again. all good points

[anabolicrhino]

I think there is a direct correlation between current USA oil liberation strategy and the lack of a better relationship with Russia.

The oil men have acknowleged that There is a large reserve of oil in Kazakistan. They just can't count on the current government to allow expansion and exploration. This lack of support is what makes Afghanistan such a strategic location for a future pipe line. This policy also makes the oil fields of Iraq a more primary source until Kazakistan can be developed. When Iran can be secured as a strategic position the Russians will have less room to negotiate.