Russian Footprints

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    Russian Footprints


    Very interesting read, matching my thoughts when I thought about the whys behind the war.

    The Kremlin may be the main winner in the Lebanon war. Israel has been attacked with Soviet Kalashnikovs and Katyushas, Russian Fajr-1 and Fajr-3 rockets, Russian AT-5 Spandrel antitank missiles and Kornet antitank rockets. Russia’s outmoded weapons are now all the rage with terrorists everywhere in the world, and the bad guys know exactly where to get them. The weapons cases abandoned by Hezbollah were marked: “Customer: Ministry of Defense of Syria. Supplier: KBP, Tula, Russia.”
    Ion Mihai Pacepa on Russia & War on Terror on National Review Online

    In the mid 1970s, the KGB ordered my service, the DIE — along with other East European sister services — to scour the country for trusted party activists belonging to various Islamic ethnic groups, train them in disinformation and terrorist operations, and infiltrate them into the countries of our “sphere of influence.” Their task was to export a rabid, demented hatred for American Zionism by manipulating the ancestral abhorrence for Jews felt by the people in that part of the world. Before I left Romania for good, in 1978, my DIE had dispatched around 500 such undercover agents to Islamic countries. According to a rough estimate received from Moscow, by 1978 the whole Soviet-bloc intelligence community had sent some 4,000 such agents of influence into the Islamic world.

    In the mid-1970s we also started showering the Islamic world with an Arabic translation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a tsarist Russian forgery that had been used by Hitler as the foundation for his anti-Semitic philosophy. We also disseminated a KGB-fabricated “documentary” paper in Arabic alleging that Israel and its main supporter, the United States, were Zionist countries dedicated to converting the Islamic world into a Jewish colony.

    On September 11, 2001, President Vladimir Putin became the first leader of a foreign country to express sympathy to President George W. Bush for what he called “these terrible tragedies of the terrorist attacks.” Soon, however, Putin began moving his country back into the terrorist business. In March 2002, he quietly reinstituted sales of weapons to Iran’s terrorist dictator, Ayatollah Khamenei, and engaged Russia in the construction of a 1,000-megawatt nuclear reactor at Bushehr, with a uranium conversion facility able to produce fissile material for nuclear weapons. Hundreds of Russian technicians also started helping the government of Iran to develop the Shahab-4 missile, with a range of over 1,250 miles, which can carry a nuclear or germ warhead anywhere in the Middle East and Europe.

    Iran’s current president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, had already announced that nothing could stop his country from building nuclear weapons, and he stated that Israel was a “disgraceful stain [on] the Islamic world” that would be eliminated. During World War II, 405,399 Americans died to eradicate Nazism and its anti-Semitic terrorism. Now we are facing Islamic fascism and nuclear anti-Semitic terrorism. The United Nations can offer no hope. It has not yet even been able to define terrorism. (should we have an impotent smiley for the UN?)
    Last edited by judge-mental; 08-29-2006 at 06:02 AM.

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    I don't understand how the Russians, after the Beslan school massacre, haven't learned the kind of pain and suffering caused by the selling of weapons to terrorists and terrorist states.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmarJackson
    I don't understand how the Russians, after the Beslan school massacre, haven't learned the kind of pain and suffering caused by the selling of weapons to terrorists and terrorist states.
    Probably for the same reasons that Israel did the following:

    Israeli Phalcon for China Troubles Cohen Visit, The Estimate, April 7, 2000

    Chinese Defence Today - Harpy Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV)

    New Chinese Fighter Succeeds By Failing
    "...Itís no accident that the J10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter..."


    Another reason would be that the Israelis have proven to Putin that they are no friends of his. When Putin went after the Oligarchs who robbed and stole billions of Russian state assets, the Oligarchs fled to Israel and have been provided with both assistance and protection by the Israelis. When Putin asked for Israel's help in prosecuting these THIEVES, the Israelis gave Putin the finger salute, claiming that those thieves are under the protection of Israel's Law of Return. Putin was really peeved. That really soured the drink. Putin's attitude made quite a change since then. Soon, arms deal with the Syrians and the Iranians went on high gear.

    We reap what we sow......

    The stuffs the Israelis sold to the unscruptulous Chinese, will end up killing a lot Israelis, and even Americans......
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    Ah the bed is made, its nice and warm, now whos cold and tired enough to lie in it?
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    Before our Israeli friends beat me on the head with it, let me point out that:

    1. The Phalcon deal was cancelled, under ernormous American pressure.

    2. The Harpy upgrade deal was also cancelled, and the parts sent back to Israelis for upgrade were confiscated from the Chinese. This was done after the American blocked Israel from participation in the F-35 program.

    Israel bowed to the American because it gets so much foreign aid from the USA.

    A fine testimony to the old dictum: He who has the gold, sets the rules.
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    Bio, in response to your second post:

    I am probably the biggest supporter of Israel on this board, but I would never bash for your opinions because I know you are well educated on the subject, and that all your claims are always backed up by verifiable facts. Unlike some that hate Israel either because of misinformation or blind disdain.

    that said,
    in regards to you first post:

    first, China is not Iran. Not even close. China may be a thorn in the ass of the USA, but does not pose the same level of threat to the world as Iran. Iran is openly allied with internationally recognized terrorist groups, they vow to destroy Israel and anyone or any nation that stands with her. a Nuclear weapon is priority number one for Iran, which they will no doubt use if they are allowed to have one. Mutual Assured Destruction means nothing to a society that glorifies death and suicide. anyway, Iran is evil, China just wants to be a world power.

    Secondly, fighter jet technology, radar-detecting UAVs, and airborne warning systems are hardly what the Russians are selling hezbollah via Iran. Katyushas loaded with ball bearings to cause maximum civilian casualties and physical pain does not amount to high-tech modern military devices.

    UAVs, warning systems, and fighter jet technology are hardly terrorist devices, and never will be. Terrorists would love to get their hands on a modern warplane like an F-16 or J10 but they would never ever be able to afford it, nor would they ever have the know how to operate and maintain it. The other two are not offensive weapons.

    There is no doubt that the Israeli's were entirely out of line in selling warfare technology to the Chinese, when explicitly told by the US not to. This is dissapointing to say the least. But again, China is not Iran, not until China's premier calls for the destruction of the US and genocide of Americans, and not until the chinese adopt a national religion that affirms this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by somewhatgifted
    Ah the bed is made, its nice and warm, now whos cold and tired enough to lie in it?
    Don't get me wrong. I am for the defence of the state of Israel.

    But protecting the thieves who stole billions of state asset, just because they are Russian Jews, is moral bankruptcy.

    So is selling weapons to the ChiCom whose openly stated intent and purpose, is to use them to sink the American Pacific fleet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    Don't get me wrong. I am for the defence of the state of Israel.

    But protecting the thieves who stole billions of state asset, just because they are Russian Jews, is moral bankruptcy.
    admittedly i am not aware of this story, but thats the American media for you. I'll look into it.
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    Russia also sold venezuela and that crazed Hugo Chavez a bunch of warplanes last month, along with a crapload of Kalashnikovs last year. It's no secret actually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmarJackson
    Bio, in response to your second post:

    I am probably the biggest supporter of Israel on this board, but I would never bash for your opinions because I know you are well educated on the subject, and that all your claims are always backed up by verifiable facts. Unlike some that hate Israel either because of misinformation or blind disdain.

    that said,
    in regards to you first post:

    first, China is not Iran. Not even close. China may be a thorn in the ass of the USA, but does not pose the same level of threat to the world as Iran. Iran is openly allied with internationally recognized terrorist groups, they vow to destroy Israel and anyone or any nation that stands with her. a Nuclear weapon is priority number one for Iran, which they will no doubt use if they are allowed to have one. Mutual Assured Destruction means nothing to a society that glorifies death and suicide. anyway, Iran is evil, China just wants to be a world power.

    Secondly, fighter jet technology, radar-detecting UAVs, and airborne warning systems are hardly what the Russians are selling hezbollah via Iran. Katyushas loaded with ball bearings to cause maximum civilian casualties and physical pain does not amount to high-tech modern military devices.

    UAVs, warning systems, and fighter jet technology are hardly terrorist devices, and never will be. Terrorists would love to get their hands on a modern warplane like an F-16 or J10 but they would never ever be able to afford it, nor would they ever have the know how to operate and maintain it. The other two are not offensive weapons.

    There is no doubt that the Israeli's were entirely out of line in selling warfare technology to the Chinese, when explicitly told by the US not to. This is dissapointing to say the least. But again, China is not Iran, not until China's premier calls for the destruction of the US and genocide of Americans, and not until the chinese adopt a national religion that affirms this.
    I understand where you are coming from. We are not at war with the Chinese and probably never will, God willing.

    The Russians are arming rogue states that are openly and actively hostile to Israel and to the West.

    I think we really blew it with the Russians. The Israelis didn't handle the Oligarch issues properly. The West has antagonized Putin and the Russians with the democracy issue. They were cooperative with us at first, but after they failed to get the reward expected, they have reverted back to their antagonist pariah status. They went back to compete for influence in the Middle East. We sell arms to one group of Arab states, much to the chagrin of our Israeli allies, I must admit, and the Russians hooked up with their old cold war allies, the pariah Arab rogue states.

    As far as the Russians and ChiCom go, arming the rogue states in the Middle East, is 1, for the money, 2, for the influence.

    Do they care if Israelis die or Westerners die? They have a rather simplistic view of things. The way they see it, if Iran ever sent a nuke into their territories, they would just turn the whole country into one giant plate of glass, and use that as an example for any other Islamo facists or roque states. They don't care about the lives of their own citizen. They certainly don't care about Israeli lives or Westerner lives.

    If Iran or other Islamo facists blackmailed the west or Israel, well, why do they care? Let the West and Israel worry and deal with it. Sadly, such kind of thinking, is not fictional. There are some elements who believe that such issues work to their national interest. "Let your enemies/opponents/competition waste their resources and tie up their energy."

    The irony is, both the Russians and the ChiComs have Islamic terrorism problem at their backyard.... The Islamo facists and the rogue states they are arming today, will lay an egg that comes home to roost, one day.

    Shortsightedness or unintended consequence?
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmarJackson
    admittedly i am not aware of this story, but thats the American media for you. I'll look into it.
    Admittedly, while it is a matter of moral issue, it is just financial crimes. But from the greater scheme of things, it was a strategic blunder. Israel needs all the friends and allies it can get. Kicking sand onto Putin and Russia's face is just unwise. It is one thing to provide political asylum to dissidents. But harbouring thieves is another. It just doesn't do Israel any good. It also gives ammo to the Israel haters.
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    My point in all these is, the Russian's action derives from their strategic decision to compete for influence in Middle East. B/c of the double standard the Israelis and the West have shown them, they just decided to return the favour. Yes, that is uncivilized and moral bankruptcy. That certainly sucks and I wish they were all more like the Dalai Lama and Mother Theresa instead.

    The Chechens are a murderous thorn in their side. Instead of helping them, the west has been helping the Chechens. So, they see hypocracy. They don't see much difference between what their dealing with Syria and Iran, and what the west has been doing with their Chechen problem. While we can say the west is not arming the Chechen, they see Beslan, the Moscow Theater etc etc.....

    Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with what the Russian are doing in the Middle East. I just happen to think that, demonizing the Russians is not a productive strategy. The Soviet Communists were evil. There is no question about that. But the Russians today, can be influenced with a different approach.

    The Russian do what they do, not because they hate the Jews or they hate the west. They are not the same as the Islamo facists. With the Russians, we can get them to control the bad apples among them. What we don't want to do, is to turn all the Russians into bad apples. Demonising them categorically, will have that unpleasant effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    Probably for the same reasons that Israel did the following:

    Israeli Phalcon for China Troubles Cohen Visit, The Estimate, April 7, 2000

    Chinese Defence Today - Harpy Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV)

    New Chinese Fighter Succeeds By Failing
    "...Itís no accident that the J10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter..."


    Another reason would be that the Israelis have proven to Putin that they are no friends of his. When Putin went after the Oligarchs who robbed and stole billions of Russian state assets, the Oligarchs fled to Israel and have been provided with both assistance and protection by the Israelis. When Putin asked for Israel's help in prosecuting these THIEVES, the Israelis gave Putin the finger salute, claiming that those thieves are under the protection of Israel's Law of Return. Putin was really peeved. That really soured the drink. Putin's attitude made quite a change since then. Soon, arms deal with the Syrians and the Iranians went on high gear.

    We reap what we sow......

    The stuffs the Israelis sold to the unscruptulous Chinese, will end up killing a lot Israelis, and even Americans......
    the plans for the f-16 was not due to the Israelis. Chinese spies stole the whole damn thing. they even got their hands on the specific engine that drives the jet and were about to ship it back in a container untill US agents got em. ill try to find the article. might take a while, but ill find it.

    EDIT: got it Popular Mechanics - China's Secret War
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    Very interesting read. Although not all that suprising.

    "My point in all these is, the Russian's action derives from their strategic decision to compete for influence in Middle East. B/c of the double standard the Israelis and the West have shown them, they just decided to return the favour"
    yep

    "think we really blew it with the Russians. The Israelis didn't handle the Oligarch issues properly. The West has antagonized Putin and the Russians with the democracy issue. They were cooperative with us at first, but after they failed to get the reward expected, they have reverted back to their antagonist pariah status. They went back to compete for influence in the Middle East. We sell arms to one group of Arab states, much to the chagrin of our Israeli allies, I must admit, and the Russians hooked up with their old cold war allies, the pariah Arab rogue states".

    Yep

    "If Iran or other Islamo facists blackmailed the west or Israel, well, why do they care? Let the West and Israel worry and deal with it. Sadly, such kind of thinking, is not fictional. There are some elements who believe that such issues work to their national interest. "Let your enemies/opponents/competition waste their resources and tie up their energy."

    The irony is, both the Russians and the ChiComs have Islamic terrorism problem at their backyard.... The Islamo facists and the rogue states they are arming today, will lay an egg that comes home to roost, one day"


    and yes again. all good points
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    I think there is a direct correlation between current USA oil liberation strategy and the lack of a better relationship with Russia.

    The oil men have acknowleged that There is a large reserve of oil in Kazakistan. They just can't count on the current government to allow expansion and exploration. This lack of support is what makes Afghanistan such a strategic location for a future pipe line. This policy also makes the oil fields of Iraq a more primary source until Kazakistan can be developed. When Iran can be secured as a strategic position the Russians will have less room to negotiate.
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    kazakistan? where's that? do you mean Kazahstan?

    bio... you said some stupid things, aka apples and oranges.

    Russia supplying weapons to terrorists from the 60's m the US arming Saddam, and than bin laden, and you complain about a cancelled Israeli deal to the chinese. yeah, about the same weight

    The victim always must be guilty of something.
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    Smile


    Quote Originally Posted by judge-mental
    kazakistan? where's that? do you mean Kazahstan?

    bio... you said some stupid things, aka apples and oranges.

    Russia supplying weapons to terrorists from the 60's m the US arming Saddam, and than bin laden, and you complain about a cancelled Israeli deal to the chinese. yeah, about the same weight

    The victim always must be guilty of something.
    Thank you for noticing and correcting my spelling error. I hope I can count on your continued editorial support in the future!
    You can count on my reciprocation!
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    Quote Originally Posted by judge-mental
    kazakistan? where's that? do you mean Kazahstan?

    bio... you said some stupid things, aka apples and oranges.

    Russia supplying weapons to terrorists from the 60's m the US arming Saddam, and than bin laden, and you complain about a cancelled Israeli deal to the chinese. yeah, about the same weight

    The victim always must be guilty of something.
    Chill out. Don't come across as holier than thou. You are not winning friends there. We support Israel, but don't pretend that you are holier than thou, when you have from time to time ****ed with those who are your friends. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Don't pressume we are not aware that there are some Jews with the mentality that ''it is ok, just as long as no Jews get hurt." We are not stupid. And neither are you.

    Don't pretend that you cancelled those deals out of the goodness and kindness of your heart. You fought tooth to nail to keep the deals going, eventhough you were made fully aware of the effect of such deals. You only relented after we withhold aid and froze you out of our military program.


    Apples and oranges? Why? Because American lives are worth less than Israeli lives? Russian lives are worth less than Israeli lives?


    No, we don't care for you guys selling military technology to people whose stated aim is to use them to sink our fleet.

    No, we don't care for the Russians selling weapons to Syria and Iran that end up in the hands of Hezballah and other Islamo terrorists. Bush has already taken Putin to task, over the Kornet issue.

    Stop playing the victim card and stop pretending to be holier than thou. That just make those who support you, get disgusted and turn their back on you.

    As long as Jews keep playing the victim card, complain about the whole world being against them, and that the world owes them something, and everything is everybodyelse's fault, and justifying their stabbing the back of their friends when it suits them, you are not going to get out of the straight jacket of poor world opinion.

    Exodus is history. The siege of Masada is long gone. Holocaust is over. Get over it. Get with the time and be responsible member of the world community.


    P.S. Get your facts straight. We never armed Bin Laden. Bin Laden was threatening to kill our operatives over there back then. We never dealed with him.

    Arming Saddam? Nice try. Did you forget that we shipped you new weapons and you shipped your older stock to Iran then? You obviously didn't have much problem with having Saddam and the Iranians killing each other then. Now, you want to complain about a strategy that you were part of it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer
    the plans for the f-16 was not due to the Israelis. Chinese spies stole the whole damn thing. they even got their hands on the specific engine that drives the jet and were about to ship it back in a container untill US agents got em. ill try to find the article. might take a while, but ill find it.

    EDIT: got it Popular Mechanics - China's Secret War
    I was referring to the sale of the military technology associated with the cancelled Lavi fighter.

    "...An upcoming Pentagon report, described last month in the Boston Globe, is expected to claim that China will soon have the capacity to block American forces from defending Taiwan, partly thanks to its military cooperation with Israel, among other countries. The Pentagon document is expected to assert that China is on the verge of launching a new fighter jet built with Israeli technology and modeled on Israel's Lavi warplane, according to the Globe.

    The Lavi was a joint Israeli-American design, based upon the F-16, that was to be manufactured in Israel, financed mostly with American aid. The project was canceled in 1987 under furious pressure from the Reagan administration, following years of cost overruns and intense pressure in Washington for Israel to rely instead on the F-16.

    The cancellation caused an uproar in the Israeli defense industry, reportedly resulting in pressure on the government to remarket the technology elsewhere. According to Pentagon officials quoted in the Boston Globe, much of the Lavi's design appears to have found its way into the new Chinese fighter. In American eyes, that could amount to a violation of American exports regulations requiring American approval for such sales...."

    "...Israel is China's second-largest arms supplier after Russia...."

    "...Concerns over China's military prowess led to an intense, ultimately successful campaign by the Bush administration for preservation by the European Union of its 15-year-old arms embargo against China...."



    U.S. Suspends Cooperation With Israel on Fighter Jet
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    "Exodus is history. The siege of Masada is long gone. Holocaust is over. Get over it. Get with the time and be responsible member of the world community."

    don't forget the crusades, the spanish inquisition, the roman genocide, the pogroms of eastern europe. the Jews have gotten over it and all they ask is that their country be treated like any sovereign country with borders and rights to self-defense and self-preservation. Israel asking for preferential treatment is laughable, if anything they are denied even the basic rights allowed to any other nation.

    after 9/11 how long was the period in which the US was allowed to carry out a defensive strike against the perpetrators as mandated by the UN? oh, there was no time frame, and it doesn't look as there ever will be 5 years and counting. but a 34 day offensive against a terrorist group that has been killing Israelis for more then 2 decades, out of the question. what other country would comply to such crap, if the UN told the U.S. they had 6 months or 1 year to complete their mission in Afghanistan we'd tell kofi annan more or less to go **** himself.

    a people suffer the worst genocide of all time and are given land on which to erect a nation so as to become self-reliant and self-defensive. Then they are attacked and recipricate defensively and the world screams Nazis at the only people who truley understand the evil of the Nazis.

    and it is apples and oranges, how many americans to date have died as a result of selling radar technology to the chinese? how many israeli's have died as a result of the russians selling katyushas to Iran? apples and oranges. or none to hundreds.

    oh, and your assertion that jews believe a jewish life is more valuable than an american life is depressingly off, I've been to Israel and I can honestly say Israeli's love, admire, and are grateful to america and her people even more than most americans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmarJackson
    "Exodus is history. The siege of Masada is long gone. Holocaust is over. Get over it. Get with the time and be responsible member of the world community."

    don't forget the crusades, the spanish inquisition, the roman genocide, the pogroms of eastern europe. the Jews have gotten over it ...
    Have the Jews gotten over it? Ask around. Some may have. Some, you tell me.

    ...and all they ask is that their country be treated like any sovereign country with borders and rights to self-defense and self-preservation. Israel asking for preferential treatment is laughable, if anything they are denied even the basic rights allowed to any other nation.

    after 9/11 how long was the period in which the US was allowed to carry out a defensive strike against the perpetrators as mandated by the UN? oh, there was no time frame, and it doesn't look as there ever will be 5 years and counting. but a 34 day offensive against a terrorist group that has been killing Israelis for more then 2 decades, out of the question. what other country would comply to such crap, if the UN told the U.S. they had 6 months or 1 year to complete their mission in Afghanistan we'd tell kofi annan more or less to go **** himself. ...
    Don't come crying to the US about this. The US has been fully behind Israel. We were counting on Israel to finish off Hezballah. Olmert, Halutz and Perez ****ed up. The Northern Command ****ed up. IDF HQ ****ed up.

    Instead of blaming the UN, better ask why Olmert and Peretz rushed to embrace the cease fire as an escape hatch.


    a people suffer the worst genocide of all time and are given land on which to erect a nation so as to become self-reliant and self-defensive. Then they are attacked and recipricate defensively and the world screams Nazis at the only people who truley understand the evil of the Nazis.
    The problem is the Lebanese civilian casualties piling up. We all know it is Hezballah's fault. But the bombs and bullets are Israelis'. Eventually it gets to the point as to how many Lebanese death is too many.

    I am all for wiping out Hezballah, and the Assad regime, and the Ayatollah. Unfortunately, the military campaign hasn't gone as we thought, and meanwhile, Lebanese casualties were piling up.....


    and it is apples and oranges, how many americans to date have died as a result of selling radar technology to the chinese? how many israeli's have died as a result of the russians selling katyushas to Iran? apples and oranges. or none to hundreds.
    Well, that is ****ing brilliant. How many Jews have Iranian nuclear bombs killed? None. So, lets not worry about that then. Let's just wait till Tel Aviv is a wasteland first.

    Besides, it is ****ing funny to whine about the Russians selling weapons to the Iranians. The Chinese do that too! The missile that hit the Israeli warship was the Chinese Silkworm. Yet, Israel has no problem selling advanced military technology and weapons to the Chinese.

    Look, we are against the Russian or anybody, selling missiles or any military weapon to rogue states. The US has already taken up the issue with Putin.

    oh, and your assertion that jews believe a jewish life is more valuable than an american life is depressingly off, I've been to Israel and I can honestly say Israeli's love, admire, and are grateful to america and her people even more than most americans.
    Don't put words in my mouth. Reread my post. I said "SOME". I didn't say all. I am not that ignorant.
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    Look, we are all on the same side in this war. The enemy is the Islamo facist terrorists and the rogue regimes of Tehran, Damascus and Pyongyong.

    We should not tolerate countries that supply weapons to these coalition of evil.

    There should be consequences for those companies and countries that supply to the coalition of evil. We don't care for the Israelis supplying advanced weapon to the Chinese. We also don't care for the Russian supplying Iran and Syria.


    There are unscrupulous elements among the Russians, the Chinese, the Jews, the Americans, and in every race. It is counter productive to demonize the Russians, or the Chinese, or any particular race.

    From your stand point, one Jewish casualty is one too many. From the Lebanese stand point, one Lebanese casualty is one too many. From our stand point, one American casualty is one too many.

    I am no bleeding heart. But I can't in all good conscience, pretend that a Palestinian child, or a Lebanese child, is less important as an Israeli child. It doesn't mean an Israeli child is worth less.

    It is a completely different issue in cases where Lebanese or Palestinians raise their children to be killers and murderers and send them off to kill Israelis. I have no qualm about mowing them down in those cases. But collateral damage is a different issue. We know the IDF is no civilian killers. But innocent die nonetheless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    Have the Jews gotten over it? Ask around. Some may have. Some, you tell me.
    gotten over it, absolutly. forgotten it ever happenend, absolutly not.

    Don't come crying to the US about this. The US has been fully behind Israel. We were counting on Israel to finish off Hezballah. Olmert, Halutz and Perez ****ed up. The Northern Command ****ed up. IDF HQ ****ed up.
    first, don't tell me to not come crying. i'm American %100, born and raised, so you can stop with that crap right now. And second, i never said it was the US that put a time limit on Israel's offensive, I was saying no other country when attacked would tolerate a time limit on what needs to be done to protect itself from further attacks, but Israel is expected to. wtf?

    yes, and israeli leadership did **** up, but so did the US in afghanistan and iraq, and they sure as hell got longer than 34 days to finish the job.

    Well, that is ****ing brilliant. How many Jews have Iranian nuclear bombs killed? None. So, lets not worry about that then. Let's just wait till Tel Aviv is a wasteland first.
    how many chinese premiers have vowed to wipe the US off the map?


    Don't put words in my mouth. Reread my post. I said "SOME". I didn't say all. I am not that ignorant.
    some, all, none. I don't care. the percentage of jews that think that a jewish life is more valuable than an american life is the same percentage as white americans that think a white life is more valuable than a minority's life. very low, and we call those people ****ed in the head racists, they are an anomaly. just like SOME people masturbate to Oprah while eating hoho's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    From your stand point, one Jewish casualty is one too many. From the Lebanese stand point, one Lebanese casualty is one too many. From our stand point, one American casualty is one too many.
    from my stand point one HUMAN casualty is too many.

    the difference is one side is attempting to inflict as many casualties as possible on both sides while the other is trying its hardest prevent casualties on both sides.

    if you're (not you bio, the royal you) having difficulty determining which side is Israel and which side is Hezbollah your moral compass so ****ed there is no hope in explaining the situation further.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmarJackson
    gotten over it, absolutly. forgotten it ever happenend, absolutly not.
    Claiming to have gotten over it, does not mean you have. It isn't the claim. It is the chips on the shoulder .....

    first, don't tell me to not come crying. i'm American %100, born and raised, so you can stop with that crap right now. And second, i never said it was the US that put a time limit on Israel's offensive, I was saying no other country when attacked would tolerate a time limit on what needs to be done to protect itself from further attacks, but Israel is expected to. wtf?

    yes, and israeli leadership did **** up, but so did the US in afghanistan and iraq, and they sure as hell got longer than 34 days to finish the job.
    Olmert and Peretz were looking for an escape hatch. They snatched the cease fire before it was handed to them. Nobody forced anything onto them. They were rotten glad to pull themself out of the mess.

    If you want to blame, blame the Israeli leadership.

    ..how many chinese premiers have vowed to wipe the US off the map?..
    That is just an absurd excuse. Let me ask how you like the Silkworm anti-ship missiles the Chinese sold to Iran and the Iranian gave to Hezballah, which loped one at your warship?

    I guess that must be Ok since the Chinese Premier didn't say anything about killing jews.


    some, all, none. I don't care. the percentage of jews that think that a jewish life is more valuable than an american life is the same percentage as white americans that think a white life is more valuable than a minority's life. very low, and we call those people ****ed in the head racists, they are an anomaly. just like SOME people masturbate to Oprah while eating hoho's.
    It is not a matter of whether you care or don't care. You either refuse to admit it or simply do not realize that there are some Israelis who harbour the mentality that "It doesn't matter, just as long as no jews get hurt." And these are not just Joeblow nobody, who, as you described, as someone who are ****ed in the brain. I am sure they are probably ****ed in the brain too, but these are people with power and means to cause serious harm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    Claiming to have gotten over it, does not mean you have. It isn't the claim. It is the chips on the shoulder .....
    you're ****ing right the israelis have a chip on their shoulder, parts of the world has wanted them dead for the better part of an entire century.


    I guess that must be Ok since the Chinese Premier didn't say anything about killing jews.
    i didn't want to get personal but "F" you. talk about putting words in peoples mouths.


    It is not a matter of whether you care or don't care. You either refuse to admit it or simply do not realize that there are some Israelis who harbour the mentality that "It doesn't matter, just as long as no jews get hurt." And these are not just Joeblow nobody, who, as you described, as someone who are ****ed in the brain. I am sure they are probably ****ed in the brain too, but these are people with power and means to cause serious harm.
    wow, major breakthrough here in macro psychology. you mean to say that:

    people in [insert nation] are concerned with the lives and well being of [insert nationality] people over others?

    oh, and when refering to ISRAEL stop inserting YOU.

    I AM NOT THE NATION OF ISRAEL!
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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicrhino
    Thank you for noticing and correcting my spelling error. I hope I can count on your continued editorial support in the future!
    You can count on my reciprocation!
    umm. doesn't sound like spelling but rather like you don't know wtf you are talking about. just letting you know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by judge-mental
    umm. doesn't sound like spelling but rather like you don't know wtf you are talking about. just letting you know.
    Thank you for clarifing your position. Maybe be you can humour me with an explaination of your spin of my statement about Kazahstan?( a republic of the former Soviet Union)

    I was concuring with both the posted article and your own comments about it. So, if I agree with you and you flame me because I don't know WTF I am talking about, What does that say about you? Thanks.http://anabolicminds.com/forum/images/smilies/fool2.gif
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmarJackson
    they are an anomaly. just like SOME people masturbate to Oprah while eating hoho's.
    Now that was funny I don't care who you are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmarJackson
    you're ****ing right the israelis have a chip on their shoulder, parts of the world has wanted them dead for the better part of an entire century.
    And what has walking around with a chip on the shoulder gotten you?

    i didn't want to get personal but "F" you. talk about putting words in peoples mouths.
    Childish outburst. I didn't have to put words in your mouth. I just borrowed your own logic. You just got tangled in your own over simplistic logic, repeatedly.

    wow, major breakthrough here in macro psychology. you mean to say that:

    people in [insert nation] are concerned with the lives and well being of [insert nationality] people over others?

    oh, and when refering to ISRAEL stop inserting YOU.

    I AM NOT THE NATION OF ISRAEL!
    You have no idea what I was referring to. You do not know the issues nor the facts involved.

    The Israelis I was referring to, are in Knesset today.
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    There are those who support Israel out of an emotional bond. That is understandable.

    Israel is our friend and ally. A fellow western democracy that is in the crosshair of Islamic terrorism.

    We have nations who are our allies, selling arms to rogue nations. The European have done that. The Russians have done that. And as listed previously, even the Israelis, have done the same. Thus, it would be hypocritical and farcical to go whine about how wicked and evil the Russians are, because, the Israelis have sold arms to the Chinese, who turn around and armed the Iranians, who armed the Hezballah. It doesn't mean arming rogue states should be tolerated. Not at all. Anyone, any companies, any countries that arm rogue states, should be held accountable for their action. There ought to be hell to pay, for the elements in our allied countries that do business with rogue scum.

    What we don't need is the holier than thou, self defeating attitude. That is counter-productive.
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