EDIT: My punkazz now ex-girlfriend posted this thread under my username after an argument we had. Sorry for the inconvenience to all. Only way I just noticed this is because I was repped.
Have you ever met a holocaust surviver; seen the tattoo in faded blue ink on their arms? I have known just a few. Most are extremely old now. I doubt my own children will have the opportunity to meet one. My brother-in-law's father was a POW housed at Dachau. Admittedly, he wasn't Jewish, but he did see what went on at that camp.
Have you ever been to any of the camps? I have not and probably never will. It is too disturbing for me.
The evidence for the holocaust is simply overwhelming. Even those who would LIKE to deny it (ie, Germany) have made it illegal to do so. The fear is that "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."
There have always been conspiracy theorists and I suspect there always will be. They pop up in every catastrophy. Why, did you know that it was actually the Jews and the US government that brought down the Twin Towers?......
These people come up with their lunatic theories for various reasons. They are not lying for the most part because the really do believe their own bull****. It is sad really.
If you really want to know what happened, go visit the camps. Visit a few Holocaust museums. Sift through actual data and records written by the Nazis themselves (say what you like but they were meticulous record keepers). Maybe even talk to a few survivors if you can find any (and if you can get them to talk of their horrific experiences).
Those are good articles. Everyone should read them, and form their own opinions. The holocaust should be able to be discussed in open debate without being jailed for it, or labeled an anti-semite. After all it is a part of history.
And to Spidey's question. I have never met a holocaust survivor and probably never will. However, I have met and know a former dog handler at Auschwitz. He is a friend of my families. He was from Lithuania and joined Germany in WWII to fight the expansion of the USSR. He never saw any gassings and never committed atrocities. He is really old now, however they are still trying to track him down for war crimes. He's 90 some years old, and I think its time they let him be. And i'm not a holocaust denier either. There's much evidence to support jews were killed in the camps. So were gypsies, poles, slavs, etc. I however do not believe six million died as the numbers simply do not add up.
There is no debate among anyone with any with any standing to have an educated opinion.
Eleven million people died in the Holocaust. Six million Jews and five million others targeted because of their identity (Gypsies - aka Roma, homosexuals, communists, Catholics).
These numbers are a generally agreed upon approximation utilizing census records, tax records, etc. from before and after the wars. There is no debate about them other than on the margins.
FBXDAN's friend who "never saw" anything is lying to cover up his own complicity in one of the worst crimes in human history. If he is still a wanted fugitive it means that there is evidence that he actively participated in attrocities. He should man-up and take responsibility for his actions (or plead his innocence) and not continue to hide like a coward with a guilty conscience.
That's exactly my stance.. And we'll never really know what happened because camps could have easily been built after the war. What do museums prove? Actual data and records written by Nazis? How can that be proven?
I do believe many, many innocent Jews were killed by Hitler in concentration camps. Then again, I believe many, many innocent Christians were killed by Hitler - as well as Gypsies, Poles, Slavs, etc. as well.
I don't think it's right that the term "Holocaust" should be used to describe one horrific event as there are many different holocausts in history where lots innocent people were killed.
I also don't think it should be a crime, in America, to NOT believe in something. That's just insane. People are free to believe in whatever they choose. I guess that falls into the "Hate Thought" category...
Originally Posted by fbxdan
"We" don't know anything, for sure.. All we know is what we're taught and told..
Originally Posted by yeahright
Exactly. I agree with you 100%. "History is written by the victors" - Winston ChurchillOriginally Posted by Zero Tolerance
Originally Posted by yeahright
Actually many well-known and credited historians DO debate this number such as David Irving. And the number of 6 million was not agreed upon by census records, etc. Do you know where this number comes from? The number comes from Illya Ehrenberg (December 1944) who was the chief Soviet Propagandist during WWII. However the International Red Cross reported "less than 300,000 internees of all nationalities in the German camps died of all causes, including old age."
The 6 million figure includes the 4 million that were gassed at Auschwitz. In 1990 that figure was dropped to 1.5 million. Shouldnt that be then subtracted from the 6 million? If anything it is a symbolic number. I would just like to know the truth of how many people died. Sadly, we will never know because anytime a historian questions it he is labeled an "anti-semite". It is a thought crime, plain and simple.
I am not trying to change anyone's mind on the matter here, I am just presenting the other point of view. You can make your own conclusions on the matter.
And on another point, my family's friend is not a coward. He was a victim of the times, and was trying to save his country from the evils of communism. He was just a young man at the time. He fought very bravely in that war just as my grandfather did.
A lot and more than should have in horrific ways.I would just like to know the truth of how many people died.
Yes and you can see the years of dealing with suffering in their eyes.Have you ever met a holocaust surviver
Prove? Nothing it is a place to keep people informed of an era/event etc. because it seems that there's people out there that like to question. It also serves as a place to learn and in some cases like this one, mourn.What do museums prove?
Yes and that of the victims,observers etc.Actual data and records written by Nazis?
Just like anything else.How can that be proven?
It isn't a crime. I don't know of a law you would be charged under. People are free to say what the ****, over. When regarding those who use their freedom to NOT beleive something.I also don't think it should be a crime, in America, to NOT believe in something. That's just insane. People are free to believe in whatever they choose. I guess that falls into the "Hate Thought" category...
If I was a moderator, I'd lock this topic. It's not going to serve anybody any good.
The Germans kept excellent records. Remember that until the Allies had them on their heels, they were convinced that they not only were right and justified but that they would win the war and rule most of the world. They had nothing to fear by keeping extensive records until the Americans and Russians closed in.Originally Posted by Zero Tolerance
Holocaust denial is not a crime in the US.I also don't think it should be a crime, in America, to NOT believe in something. That's just insane. People are free to believe in whatever they choose. I guess that falls into the "Hate Thought" category...
I had a research paper over Adolf Eichmann last semester and it really opened up how many were heavily involved with the Holocaust. Hitler and Himmler are generally the ones that are discussed the most, and rightfully so, but to neglect how many of the SS were responsible is just as bad as ignoring the entire event. Many use the phrase of "I was just following orders," but I cannot believe that from any person. The man power it took to orchestrate the Holocaust was in the tens of thousands and every one of them knew what was happening.
No offense, but that certainly gives him a motive to lie, does it not? Not to mention the shame that he should be feeling and the natual reluctance to admit complicity in such a horrific act.Originally Posted by fbxdan
On what do you base that statement? I'm not flame baiting here, I would like to know if you have a basis for saying that the numbers do not add up.I however do not believe six million died as the numbers simply do not add up.
On what do you base that statement? I'm not flame baiting here, I would like to know if you have a basis for saying that the numbers do not add up.[/QUOTE]
In 1939, there were nearly 15,700,000 Jews in the world. After the Second World War that number had risen to over 18,000,000 Jews. What this means is that of the 15,000,000 original Jews on the planet, 6,000,000 were gassed, leaving only some 9,000,000-plus. Then, the world Jewish population rebounded and doubled to over 18,000,000 in less than nine years.
And here's a link if youd like to see more from that national journal: The HOLOCAUST for Dummies I admit thats not the best page, but it gives a decent overview
However, probably nothing good can come out of this thread I agree.
****, if you think about it we had a holocaust here in america. How many native americans do you see running around? You could argue for days about this sort of thing, its not going to change what happened. If you watch the news some sort of holocaust will probably happen again in the near future.
I'm not sure if you are aware of this but Hasidic jews have sworn a vow to have as many children as possible so as to more than replace the number of jews killed in the holocaust. I know several Hasidic jews and the one with the fewest children has 7. They are not the only ones who have vowed this.Originally Posted by fbxdan
Also it needs to be noted that many Jews in 1939 didn't even know they were Jews. Neither were they recognized as such. My grandmother and her family were an example. Their ancestors had stopped practicing so long ago, no one thought they were Jewish. However, family trees showed they were when the Nazis investigated, and my grandmother and her family were hunted down.
Of her family, only her and her aunt survived. Her Aunt was sent to a death camp, but made it out alive because a friend who was older gave up her food so my grandmother's aunt wouldn't die of starvation. My grandmother managed to escape capture thankfully; though only barely. She barely made it out of Budapest in time. Then on the road, their car broke down and an SS officer pulled up to them. My grandmother distracted him while my grandfather hit him over the head. They took his gun and his car. They made it to the border but were late. The man meeting them at the border started to lead them to a valley to shoot them, but my grandfather pulled the SS officer's gun on him and forced him to lead them to the borderhouse.
Eventually much of my grandmother's family made it to a ship on the Black Sea. The ship however was attacked by the Germans and sunk. My grandmother was farsighted and saw a ship in the distance. She, my grandfather, and one other person swam for it. Those 3 were the only survivors. Finally she made it to Turkey, and then eventually to Israel where she stayed for many years.
She lives in Budapest again now though.
In any case, the point before was that before the war, 15.7 million represented the number of Jews who were openly Jewish and practiced the religion. Afterwards, 18 million represented the number of ETHNIC Jews. Those who were related to Jewish people whether they practiced or not. Btw, this includes those who are related to Jews via their father's side of the family; something that Jewish tradition does not accept (in Judaism, you are Jewish only if your mother was Jewish).
I haven't read this book yet, but I've read about the subject: IBM and the Holocaust comments
Consistent with the Germans' reputed meticulousness in so many areas, record keeping was outstanding, and aided by the most cutting edge technology provided by IBM. Germany's own records were a major source of arriving at estimates, though I believe this record-keeping fell apart as the war was coming to a close. They were just killing as fast as possible.
You are welcome to believe whatever you want. Just make sure you weigh how important you perceive expressing your beliefs regarding specific numbers against the offense to people who were personally affected by the tragedy. This reminds me of the controversy Noam Chomsky was involved in when he supported the right to publication of a French Holocaust-denier. Chomsky even wrote a foreword about the importance of free speech. When questioned about the actual book, Chomsky basically said, "the guy is an idiot, but he still has a right to his beliefs".
That site is far from credible. It is obvious from other articles on that site as well as the footnotes on that page that the site has an antisemetic agenda. Hell, that article cites "neworder.org", which doesn't bring up any web page.Originally Posted by fbxdan