EDIT: My punkazz now ex-girlfriend posted this thread under my username after an argument we had. Sorry for the inconvenience to all. Only way I just noticed this is because I was repped.
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Those are good articles. Everyone should read them, and form their own opinions. The holocaust should be able to be discussed in open debate without being jailed for it, or labeled an anti-semite. After all it is a part of history.
And to Spidey's question. I have never met a holocaust survivor and probably never will. However, I have met and know a former dog handler at Auschwitz. He is a friend of my families. He was from Lithuania and joined Germany in WWII to fight the expansion of the USSR. He never saw any gassings and never committed atrocities. He is really old now, however they are still trying to track him down for war crimes. He's 90 some years old, and I think its time they let him be. And i'm not a holocaust denier either. There's much evidence to support jews were killed in the camps. So were gypsies, poles, slavs, etc. I however do not believe six million died as the numbers simply do not add up.
There is no debate among anyone with any with any standing to have an educated opinion.
Eleven million people died in the Holocaust. Six million Jews and five million others targeted because of their identity (Gypsies - aka Roma, homosexuals, communists, Catholics).
These numbers are a generally agreed upon approximation utilizing census records, tax records, etc. from before and after the wars. There is no debate about them other than on the margins.
FBXDAN's friend who "never saw" anything is lying to cover up his own complicity in one of the worst crimes in human history. If he is still a wanted fugitive it means that there is evidence that he actively participated in attrocities. He should man-up and take responsibility for his actions (or plead his innocence) and not continue to hide like a coward with a guilty conscience.
Exactly. I agree with you 100%. "History is written by the victors" - Winston Churchill"We" don't know anything, for sure.. All we know is what we're taught and told..
There is no debate among anyone with any with any standing to have an educated opinion.
Eleven million people died in the Holocaust. Six million Jews and five million others targeted because of their identity (Gypsies - aka Roma, homosexuals, communists, Catholics).
These numbers are a generally agreed upon approximation utilizing census records, tax records, etc. from before and after the wars. There is no debate about them other than on the margins.
FBXDAN's friend who "never saw" anything is lying to cover up his own complicity in one of the worst crimes in human history. If he is still a wanted fugitive it means that there is evidence that he actively participated in attrocities. He should man-up and take responsibility for his actions (or plead his innocence) and not continue to hide like a coward with a guilty conscience.
A lot and more than should have in horrific ways.I would just like to know the truth of how many people died.
Yes and you can see the years of dealing with suffering in their eyes.Have you ever met a holocaust surviver
Prove? Nothing it is a place to keep people informed of an era/event etc. because it seems that there's people out there that like to question. It also serves as a place to learn and in some cases like this one, mourn.What do museums prove?
Yes and that of the victims,observers etc.Actual data and records written by Nazis?
Just like anything else.How can that be proven?
It isn't a crime. I don't know of a law you would be charged under. People are free to say what the ****, over. When regarding those who use their freedom to NOT beleive something.I also don't think it should be a crime, in America, to NOT believe in something. That's just insane. People are free to believe in whatever they choose. I guess that falls into the "Hate Thought" category...
The Germans kept excellent records. Remember that until the Allies had them on their heels, they were convinced that they not only were right and justified but that they would win the war and rule most of the world. They had nothing to fear by keeping extensive records until the Americans and Russians closed in.Actual data and records written by Nazis? How can that be proven?
Holocaust denial is not a crime in the US.I also don't think it should be a crime, in America, to NOT believe in something. That's just insane. People are free to believe in whatever they choose. I guess that falls into the "Hate Thought" category...
No offense, but that certainly gives him a motive to lie, does it not? Not to mention the shame that he should be feeling and the natual reluctance to admit complicity in such a horrific act.He never saw any gassings and never committed atrocities. He is really old now, however they are still trying to track him down for war crimes.
On what do you base that statement? I'm not flame baiting here, I would like to know if you have a basis for saying that the numbers do not add up.I however do not believe six million died as the numbers simply do not add up.
I'm not sure if you are aware of this but Hasidic jews have sworn a vow to have as many children as possible so as to more than replace the number of jews killed in the holocaust. I know several Hasidic jews and the one with the fewest children has 7. They are not the only ones who have vowed this.In 1939, there were nearly 15,700,000 Jews in the world. After the Second World War that number had risen to over 18,000,000 Jews. What this means is that of the 15,000,000 original Jews on the planet, 6,000,000 were gassed, leaving only some 9,000,000-plus. Then, the world Jewish population rebounded and doubled to over 18,000,000 in less than nine years.On what do you base that statement? I'm not flame baiting here, I would like to know if you have a basis for saying that the numbers do not add up.
And here's a link if youd like to see more from that national journal: The HOLOCAUST for Dummies I admit thats not the best page, but it gives a decent overview
That site is far from credible. It is obvious from other articles on that site as well as the footnotes on that page that the site has an antisemetic agenda. Hell, that article cites "neworder.org", which doesn't bring up any web page.In 1939, there were nearly 15,700,000 Jews in the world. After the Second World War that number had risen to over 18,000,000 Jews. What this means is that of the 15,000,000 original Jews on the planet, 6,000,000 were gassed, leaving only some 9,000,000-plus. Then, the world Jewish population rebounded and doubled to over 18,000,000 in less than nine years.
And here's a link if youd like to see more from that national journal: The HOLOCAUST for Dummies I admit thats not the best page, but it gives a decent overview
Good point! Hitler did not even remotely approach reaching the standards he set for perfection. He was a pathetic little man who inexplicably managed to exert tremendous influence over what was at that time the most highly educated society in the world.Nullifidian, that was an amazing story. Reading stuff like that really puts your own life's problems into perspective.
In any case, Hitler's mother was Jewish. Damn hypocrites.
Movies are where a lot of people get their history from, unfortunately. There's a good alternative history book called Fatherland by Thomas Harris, it's an If The Germans Won approach. Interesting concept, basically the Germans win and then bury the holocaust and Hitler is about to meet with JFK for some kind of summit when the **** hits the fan.just come to Israel and talk to people about 50% have relatives who died there, like of my mother's parents family all were killed but 4 siblings out of 20. anyway what's the gain in inventing the thing? I don't get it. americans keep thinking the world is a movie of some sort.
Not when it comes to this. Most Americans accept the holocaust as historical fact. We liberated many of the camps and a lot of our blood was spilled to end Hitler's tyrrany.I don't get it. americans keep thinking the world is a movie of some sort.
I think people are confusing the right to have a personal beliefs, with the right to have their silly beliefs taken seriously. The reality is, while everyone has the right to his or her beliefs and to voice his/her opinions, it does not mean their beliefs and opinions are worth listening to...... When questioned about the actual book, Chomsky basically said, "the guy is an idiot, but he still has a right to his beliefs". :toofunny:
Exactly! I think that was Chomsky's point. He actually went so far as to write the foreword about the controversy surrounding the book, but when questioned, he voiced his opinion about the inanity of the argument.The reality is, while everyone has the right to his or her beliefs and to voice his/her opinions, it does not mean their beliefs and opinions are worth listening to.
Yes, some speech is garbage. It is all in the perception of the individual. I view alot of Noam Chomsky's writings as garbage personally. He's the only person I can think of off the top of my head who actually sources HIMSELF to support some of his ramblings. Now granted, I agree with alot of what he has said in the past. But he does have some loony ideas.Exactly! I think that was Chomsky's point. He actually went so far as to write the foreword about the controversy surrounding the book, but when questioned, he voiced his opinion about the inanity of the argument.
Very trueI stick closely to the old Italian saying...
Don't believe ANYTHING you hear; only believe HALF of what you see.
Garbage is garbage. No individual perception can change garbage into gold.Yes, some speech is garbage. It is all in the perception of the individual. ...
No. Your family friend is scum. By your own description, he was a "former dog handler at Auschwitz." He wasn't a soldier fighting other soldiers. He used dogs to torture noncombatants being held in a concentration camp. If he's in his 90s now as you say, that means he was in his 20s or 30s at the time. Instead of taking responsibility for his conduct after the war, he's been a fugitive for 60 years.And on another point, my family's friend is not a coward. He was a victim of the times, and was trying to save his country from the evils of communism. He was just a young man at the time. He fought very bravely in that war just as my grandfather did.
I have to agree.No. Your family friend is scum. By your own description, he was a "former dog handler at Auschwitz." He wasn't a soldier fighting other soldiers. He used dogs to torture noncombatants being held in a concentration camp. If he's in his 90s now as you say, that means he was in his 20s or 30s at the time. Instead of taking responsibility for his conduct after the war, he's been a fugitive for 60 years.
So lets recap here: We have a 25 year old man, who sicked attack dogs on children as they were separated from their mothers and herded to the gas chambers. After the war, he faded away into the chaos, took on a false identity, and hid for 60 years. That's a morally bankrupt coward from where I stand.
I know. I wasn't saying he was a regular soldier.If he was just a regular foot soldier, then why would he be wanted for war crime? No one would give a hoot about him. Lots of German WWII vets all over the world. They are not wanted for anything, b/c they were the regular troopers.
Great point...if you can't trust primary history documents, how can you trust a 90 yr old nazi who admitted to his involvement in the most destructive of all camps?P.S. For a guy who is skeptical about everything, he sure takes the words of that 90 yr old guy at face value..
Do you know the real reason for Columbia's break up over Texas? The Secret Services was doing maintenance on Bush's timemachine he is keeping in the underground bunker in his range in Crawford, Texas. Rumour has it that, the SS agent accidentally turned on the super warp boost of the machine without following proper procedure. The resulting time-space continuum disruption just wrecked the Columbia during its re entry over the sky of Texas.i am still trying to figure out how bush went back in time and pulled this off
Come on now. Surely you know they were joking about the Bush connections. No one is seeing "conspiracy theories where they don't exist". They were lampooning all the wackos on the left that think everything bad that has happened in history is somehow Bush's fault.This thread has went crazy... I think its pretty laughable how Bush was brought into this, even though I've never criticized Bush once on this board. It seems like neo-cons see criticisms and conspiracy theories where they don't even exist.
The only people who still have questions about the holocaust are those who refuse to accept it; usually on white supremacy and antisemetic grounds. The facts of the holocaust have been known for 60 years. The Nuremburg trials, eye-witness accounts, personal writings of high profile Nazis, and even the records kept within the camps themselves all told a pretty cohesive and complete story. There are no credible doubts about the veracity of the holocaust....All that I am saying is there are some questions about what happened in the camps during World War II and there needs to be more research done. There's also many jews who have questions to, and are not sure the 6 million figure is accurate....
The difference is that the Soviet oppression was not about religious or racial persecution. Stalin purged ANYONE he considered any kind of a threat to his rule and ideology. Since Russia was majority Russian Orthodox, most of the victims were going to be Christians; just statistics. Many of his own friends and cabinet members ended up in the Gulags; he was completely ruthless. In contrast, Hitler rounded up victims based on race rather than politics; anyone not "Aryan" enough. While it is true that blacks, gypsies, and homosexuals made the "not Aryan enough" list, he specifically targeted the Jews and authored many writings acknowledging that fact. He even wrote that the Jews, while similar in many ways, could not be considered "human".Over 60 million people died in that war from all sides. There are memorials, and tv specials everywhere for the holocaust. But where are the memorials for the millions of christians that died as a result of soviet communism? The gulags receieve maybe 1/8 the attention the holocaust does.
Agreed and there are WWII memorials in many places honoring our war dead. My grandfather (RIP) fought in the Pacific Theater. That doesn't mean we don't need to be reminded of perhaps the single most heinous crime in the 20th century though. We would be wise to remember history; not revise it to assuage the guilt.We should take time to think about all the people that died during these times. Including my great-uncle who was killed in battle valiantly, and my grandfather who was a decorated bomber and died from complications from that war.
You can't always believe the "facts" anymore. Not in a society with a government that hides them from you. Yes, I understand some things need to be kept secret - but not all. I used to take whatever I saw on the news as factual...I believe in the old jayhawkk saying: Never accept anyone's word on anything but that doesn't excuse ignorance. If you doubt; then find out the facts yourself.
Now we know what happened to all that unaccounted for $$$$ from Iraq reconstruction. And we thought Kellogg, Brown & Root just had abysmal accounting practicesi am still trying to figure out how bush went back in time and pulled this off
Stalin was a mass murderer. So was Mao of China (20 million Chinese) and Pol Pot (2 million Cambodian). They were every bit as evil as Hitler.Stalin had logical reason? He's the biggest mass-murderer this world has ever seen. And the christians that died were just a statistic? Thats ridiculous. Saying the victims of the gulags were "political prisoners" makes me sick to my stomach. Many people were killed because, and only because they were christian. If you want I can link you much information on the subject.
Exactly. Millions have died because of communism and its leaders.Stalin was a mass murderer. So was Mao of China (20 million Chinese) and Pol Pot (2 million Cambodian). They were every bit as evil as Hitler.
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