Know what's kind of funny...

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  1. -Dalla Hunga-
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    Know what's kind of funny...


    How President Bush stresses that human life is so precious, so he vetos government funding of stem cell research. While at the same time, he sends thousands of young men and women into a war which has resulted in thousands of civilian casualties.

    It's an odd duplicity, isnt it?

    I'm not trying to start an argument about the war in Iraq - we have enough of those - but it's just wierd how he thinks. Perhaps his veto of the stem cell bill had something to do with his large percentage of right-wing religious supporters.

    BV

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    What is his deal w/ stem cell research?? You seemed to implicate Christians in his veto of it.
    Is there some Bible passage outlawing it?

    I've not heard any explicit reason why he vetoed it - merely discussion that it was his first veto...
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    He didn't veto stem cell research. He vetoed GOVERNMENT FUNDED stem cell research. It is still entirely legal to perform the research through private funds.

    And to answer JMH, for some reason the christians have made dead fetus' into a "life" issue. I have no clue how that has come to be. And his first veto had everything to do with his religious base (and personal beliefs) if I had to guess. I don't know how he could spin it otherwise.
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  4. -Dalla Hunga-
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    He didn't veto stem cell research. He vetoed GOVERNMENT FUNDED stem cell research. It is still entirely legal to perform the research through private funds.

    And to answer JMH, for some reason the christians have made dead fetus' into a "life" issue. I have no clue how that has come to be. And his first veto had everything to do with his religious base (and personal beliefs) if I had to guess. I don't know how he could spin it otherwise.
    Right - it doesnt spend the end for stem cell research by any means. But it kind of sends a message that the US government does not approve.

    What is his deal w/ stem cell research?? You seemed to implicate Christians in his veto of it.
    Is there some Bible passage outlawing it?

    I've not heard any explicit reason why he vetoed it - merely discussion that it was his first veto...
    Lol no. no bible passage outlawing it. Pretty much what kwyck said...
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    Well, IMO, I think its better that government doesn't have its grubby little mits on stem cell research.

    I see the parties as two stupid dogs. The issues at hand are like a rope toy. When a good rope toy is thrown to our two stupid dogs they'll try so hard to get it away from each other they'll destroy before it can ever be played with. So, IMO, we should keep the rope toy away from the two stupid dogs.
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    Good analogy, and probably true. Still though, government funding would mean a lot more scientists doing work in that area, and I think have more pros than cons.
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    With the **** the gov't funds and wastes money on this was a rediculous move...

    I'm still in a lot of pain and drugged up at the moment. I'm gonna come back to this thread when I have the ability of restraint.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Good analogy, and probably true. Still though, government funding would mean a lot more scientists doing work in that area, and I think have more pros than cons.
    Not necessarily.Every dime that goes to the government comes out of the private sector. Theoretically if they'd chill on taxes and STFU about anything science related we'd be sitting pretty in the world of research
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    The majority of the funding goes to research institutions like university labs. The research institutes are our greatest national assets.

    Federal funding would have made tax payers funded research grants available for scientists at university hospitals, institutes and labs.

    Vetoing the legislation is playing to a specific group of hardcore Christian conservative constituents, at the expense of medical advancement.

    The explaination given is ridiculous. IF the concern is to protect the fertilized eggs in the fetility labs, then write the damn bill to exclude that. We can still fund research that use donated eggs and sperms, specifically harvested for the research purpose.

    There are a bunch of whackos who think that life begins at conception and by their logic, if you flush a dish of eggs and sperms you have mixed together, then you are committing murder.
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    Don't get me started on Bush, and now our Prime Minister here in Canada is his littly lacky.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    He didn't veto stem cell research. He vetoed GOVERNMENT FUNDED stem cell research. It is still entirely legal to perform the research through private funds.

    And to answer JMH, for some reason the christians have made dead fetus' into a "life" issue. I have no clue how that has come to be. And his first veto had everything to do with his religious base (and personal beliefs) if I had to guess. I don't know how he could spin it otherwise.

    Kwyck - Government funding (right on) Let the drug companies and investors put up the money - not the taxpayers.

    If taxpayers put up the money for the research, will the drug companies give us a discount on the new cures and drugs?? Have you bought any drugs lately? They are making a killing on us.

    Yes I have health insurance, they just raised my premium to $900 a month with a $5,000 deductible.

    All the money goes to health care somehow.

    And we want to give the drug companies millions of our tax dollars ??

    I know I'm rambling - I just wish I could put all my thoughts on paper like you Kwyck.

    PS - Follow the money!!
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    I pay 400 a month that is subsidized by my dept by an additional 600 a month and I still have about 2k in doc bills right now.
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    -----------------------------------------------------------------Don't get me started on Bush, and now our Prime Minister here in Canada is his littly lacky.
    That does seem to be the case now...


    Kwyck - Government funding (right on) Let the drug companies and investors put up the money - not the taxpayers.

    If taxpayers put up the money for the research, will the drug companies give us a discount on the new cures and drugs?? Have you bought any drugs lately? They are making a killing on us.

    Yes I have health insurance, they just raised my premium to $900 a month with a $5,000 deductible.

    All the money goes to health care somehow.

    And we want to give the drug companies millions of our tax dollars ??

    I know I'm rambling - I just wish I could put all my thoughts on paper like you Kwyck.

    PS - Follow the money!!
    The health care situation in this country is a freakin' mess of legenday proportions. Now we have 'surgery vacations' where people are booking trips to India to get important surgeries performed at a fraction of what it costs over here.

    Big Pharma has too much money and influence over washington to be dealt with the way it should be though...my god every time I turn on the TV there's a new drug Im supposed to ask my doctor about. A lot of these prescription meds have more nasty side effects than most rec drugs for christ's sake! And most are treatments for an unhealthy lifestyle and poor life habits, its really sad.
    Last edited by BigVrunga; 07-23-2006 at 10:16 PM.
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    I think rx drugs should be treated like cigs...No advertising.
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    [nomedia="http://youtube.com/watch?v=rkA1aN1osVk&feature=To pRated&page=2&t=w&f=b"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]
  16. -Dalla Hunga-
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    Poor dude, you can see how his condition has worsened. Well stated message too...it would be a huge step in human development if we could find cures for these numerous, and horrible, genetic afflictions.

    BV
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    ITs actually a pretty good thing that government stays the hell out of it. Sometimes the less the government has invested, the better the outcome.

    Bush used his veto because of the "potential of life". Hence all those lil rug rats hanging around his legs to make a point. The troops off to war are by choice of the solder. You sign the dotted line knowing that one day, you will fight. He and a large majority of conservatives see it as .. lets give them a chance to live.

    I for one, know the soul doesn't fully enter the body til the second year of age and the dissconnection with "heaven" starts to occure.... aka.. terrible twos
  18. -Dalla Hunga-
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    LOL you've got kids Maynard?
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    not that i know about lol
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    I'm pretty sure that my neighbor's kid, who is 12, has yet to receive his soul. I think his got lost in the mail.
  21. -Dalla Hunga-
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    Or he sold it on Ebay.
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    Damn kids and their ebay!
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    the religious christian embeciles in this country are just as bad as the dirty jihad screaming muslims over in the middle east in my opinion.

    a bunch of non-sentient cells clumped together and smaller than a single bacteria is not a human ****ing being. Potential for life? ive got a couple million "potential for life" swimming around in my nut sack right now. more of this religious **** interrupting scientific advancement and denying people of a cure to their diseases in the process. i hope every religious fanatic dies a horrible stem-cell curable death.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    I'm pretty sure that my neighbor's kid, who is 12, has yet to receive his soul. I think his got lost in the mail.
    oh my

    i think that its great thing that the stem cell research is not going to be part of the federal governme ts agenda... when you look around its plain to see that virtually everything is better whenits done privately. take health insurance, postal service, etc... the government kicks rocks in alot of areas. simply look at europe versus america. true that alot of medical advances (NOT all) first happen in europe, but american ussually makes it better than europe ever could have.
  25. -Dalla Hunga-
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    Yeah and unless you've have health insurance through your job you'll die before you can afford any of it

    True though - everything the US Government touches turns to suck.

    BV
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Yeah and unless you've have health insurance through your job you'll die before you can afford any of it


    BV
    i believe that affording health insurance completely depends on a person's priorities in life. if you can not afford health insurance its ususally because people are living out of their means. most everyone should have insurance but opt to have that bigger house, nicer car, etc....and whatever's left is not enough to cover the MUST haves in life such as health insurance. i understand that some people have such bad health conditions that to afford health insurance it is almost impossible . im not saying that those people are having spending issues but how can a person say that 1 out of 3 people are without health insurance at some points of the year are so severely down on their health insurance that they couldntafford it (NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Coverage) ? idont believe that somany arre that severly sick. lets face it..... when life's good to people its somuch easrier tos spend money on cars, houses, etc... than health.
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    True, and most people arent proactive enough about their health, which leads to rising health care costs across the board. But still, unless your job pays for it, health insurance for a small family can cost upwards of $1500 a month...consider median household income in America is ~$45k. That's almost half the average family's gross yearly income just for insurance.

    Of course, consider the cost of major surgery and a lengthy stay in the hospital, and eve $2k/month doesnt sound that bad. And there are government subsidary funds like Medicare, etc.

    Still, the cost of health care in this country makes health care benefits a primary motivator when Im looking for an employer. Most people who go to college, get a corporate job, etc wont have to worry about it.

    I think about my Dad though, he was recently out of work for nearly 7 months when he got laid off from his job. Him and my mom were down to taking 1/2 doses of their medication, their doc was giving them free samples to help with the costs.(Dad is Type2 diabetic and Mom has thyroid issues)...I was about to start helping them out and my Dad made it happen and got what could be the best job he ever had, so its cool now but still...really had me worried.

    BV
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    You have to have a lot of ducks in a row in order for health insurance to not only be afforded but kept when something happens. I pay 400 a month and my part has now gone upwards of 2k on my cost for the bloodwork, mri's and surgery associated to the tumors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    You have to have a lot of ducks in a row in order for health insurance to not only be afforded but kept when something happens. I pay 400 a month and my part has now gone upwards of 2k on my cost for the bloodwork, mri's and surgery associated to the tumors.

    you my friend were the exception i was talking about. most people can but some people with major health issues really can not

    bv, you are completely correct about taking small measures to maintain your health so that so many health issues can be avoided, ie diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure, heart attacks, and more.
    paying 20-40 a month is much cheaper than high insurance costs....
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    Here is the case for "most families":

    "This year, the average annual premium for family coverage hit $10,880, with employers paying an average of 74% of that cost and workers paying the rest. Workers this year paid on average $2,713 toward family coverage, or $1,094 more than they paid five years ago, the survey found."

    USATODAY.com - Average family health policy nears $11,000

    In most cases no health insurance is a problem because the family puts their priorities elsewhere. $225/month is what most families would need to dedicate toward their health insurance, and I'm sure most of you have seen most adults driving their kids around in $35k cars (a 600 to 800/month car payment).

    There are plenty of great options for entrepeneurs and other people without benifits afforded to them by employers, I'm actually reading quite a bit on the subject right now. People CAN make their families health affordable, IF they care to go out of their way and LOOK and PRIORITIZE.

    I'm not saying there isn't a problem with insurance companies RAPING us, I'm just saying that more people should be prioritizing on their families health instead of their material goods--which is not the case. I still believe that we need to make major reform in the insurance industry.
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    I agree mrs. gimpy. I think the family needs to decide priorities as well and put forth their own effort in securing their health.

    Unfortunately more and more employers are offering less or stop coverage because of the costs.
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    Just got done checking out our insurance. For an A grade PPO we'd be looking at a $1,500 deductible with $100/month. That is, $0 for hospital stays of unlimited duration, $0 outpatient surgery, $6,000,000 total hospital coverage, and much more than I could name off without having the paperwork in front of me.

    For standard HMO you're looking at much closer to $0 D and $50/month. That's what many businesses are going to offer anyway. Its not that horrible. Like Gimpy said...its all about prioritizing. If you don't do this early and find out you've got an illness / disease while you don't have insurance, YOU'RE SCREWED FOR LIFE!

    We got on this b/c my mom was telling Gimpy she was going to work a second job so she could get insurance. Gimpy said she'd get her a good insurance. My mom now has a PPO, $0 deduc. and about $100/month. that's great insurance and she won't be looking for a second job.

    Prioritizing + Research = Success
    Average Person = Doesn't do either of the previously mentioned things and...they fail.
  33. -Dalla Hunga-
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    That's good info kwyck....thanks for posting it! I gotta spread some rep around, yadda yadda
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    I got the Mrs. for ya BV
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    Yeah, that Mrs. got all that info for "me" lol. she's a nutcase when it comes to financial planning / prep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Gimpy!
    you my friend were the exception i was talking about. most people can but some people with major health issues really can not

    bv, you are completely correct about taking small measures to maintain your health so that so many health issues can be avoided, ie diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure, heart attacks, and more.
    paying 20-40 a month is much cheaper than high insurance costs....
    Thats one huge difference between Canada and the U.S. -- health care. Jayhawkk -- you'd have no worries here -- its all gov't funded and so very low stress. The down side of that is that like Mrs. Gimpy is saying, obeisity and preventable diabetes -- issues that can be controllable are paid by the gov't too, so health care is more expensive for all of us overall . . . a healthy person pays in allot more than they'll get out . . . anywho you probably knew that
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    The the other problem in Canada is getting emergency services and major operations done...get in line and bend over You still need private coverage up there if you want good coverage, and for the amount of money you pay the government up there, most people would be much better off buying good insurance on their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    The majority of the funding goes to research institutions like university labs. The research institutes are our greatest national assets.

    Federal funding would have made tax payers funded research grants available for scientists at university hospitals, institutes and labs.

    Vetoing the legislation is playing to a specific group of hardcore Christian conservative constituents, at the expense of medical advancement.

    The explaination given is ridiculous. IF the concern is to protect the fertilized eggs in the fetility labs, then write the damn bill to exclude that. We can still fund research that use donated eggs and sperms, specifically harvested for the research purpose.

    There are a bunch of whackos who think that life begins at conception and by their logic, if you flush a dish of eggs and sperms you have mixed together, then you are committing murder.
    I am one of those "whackos" who believe life begins at conception, I wasn't aware of my whackiness but that's probably because dilusion is part of being whacky,I really hate it when people sling mudd at someone based on religious beliefs/moral issues(sorry had to get that off my chest).I am torn over the embryonic stem cell issue, on one hand I do view it as a human life and I would not kill another human being to cure myself, however we are killing unborn humans by the millions in this country with legalized abortion so I think why not use the stem cells as they are already going to die. another thing that bothers me is that I have read that stem cells collected from adults have shown just as much promise in curing disease, if this is true then why the need for embryonic stem cells.Talk about hypocracy how many states in this country have laws on the books that call it murder to kill the fetus of a pregnant woman, yet that same woman can abort(kill) her own fetus and that's perfectly legal.
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    The thing is, they're not raising humans just to kill them. They're from aborted fetus'. I don't see the difference between studying an aborted fetus and a full grown adult, with the single small exception that the fetus cannot give consent. In that case, I believe the parents should have the final say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    The thing is, they're not raising humans just to kill them. They're from aborted fetus'. I don't see the difference between studying an aborted fetus and a full grown adult, with the single small exception that the fetus cannot give consent. In that case, I believe the parents should have the final say.
    The biggest difference is the fetus never had an option to live or as you pointed out to give consent.Regardlesss of where you stand on the issue you have to recognize that it is an ethical delemna,and I agree with you the aborted fetus is not coming back but as I stated in the last post I would not benefit from the taking of another human life even if I myself did not do the deed.
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