Know what's kind of funny...
- 08-01-2006, 10:52 PM
Good grief! Stem research does not require aborting a fetus to extract the stemcells. That is BS.
We are talking about some freaking zygotes. Fertilized eggs that have started to multiply, people! Nobody is talking about aborting fetus to extract stemcells, for god's sake. We are talking about in vitro research. It isn't about chopping up unborn babies! People are bellyaching about destruction of life. For god's sake, we are talking about fertilized eggs that have no chance of developing into a full blown human being, unless you implant them into viable wombs and then carried to full term. Implanting fertilized eggs is a hit or miss thing, meaning, plenty of fertilized eggs will simply never develop into fetus. They are simply rejected by the body. Besides, the body rejects naturally fertilized eggs all the time, and the woman doesn't even know she has even being pregnant.
So, where do we draw the line? Are we going to go ape over all those fertilized eggs that are never carried to full term? My freaking goodness!! How many billions of lives have been destroyed over the history of humanity?!
According to some people, destroying these zygotes is tentamount to destruction of human life. Well then, are you going to charge the scientists with murder then? If not, then why not? By your reasoning, it ought to be murder!! Heck, since it is all pre-planned, then it ought to be premeditated murder! Even conspiracy too! What's next? The kid whacking off is going to be charged for destroying potential life as his sperms are alive? For fcvk sake! This is what I mean by nutjob insanity creeping in.
This is all BS. The fundamentalist extremists are accomplishing nothing, except to hand over the lead in this field to foreign researchers. What they are doing, is to hold back American advance in this field. Other countries are not constrained by this BS.
The knowledge we gain from stemcell research may very well embark us on a path that changes the human evolutionary process.
What the fundamentalist extremists are doing to stemcell research parallels to what the Church did to Galileo, Da Vinci and the like. They are throwing their beliefs as road block onto the path of science and advancement. Needless to say, they will fail in their frivolous attempt. They are only hindering American scientists in this field.
BTW, FWIW, I am a staunch Republican, a Roman Catholic, and a neo con. Most of the views I posted in this forum (except in this thread), reflect hardcore right wing conservatism. So, this isn't a case of anti social and anti religious crusade from the left wing extremist camp.
- 08-02-2006, 02:39 AM
Yeah, no kiddin'. Now that I think about it, I can't believe I ever bought into the idea that "embryonic stem cell research" had anything to do wtih a fetus. It specifically says embryonic. LOL. MMkkay I feel dumb. *Biology major lowers his head in shame*
I guess it was the episode of South Park where Christopher Reeves was cracking open fetus' like coors lights and went from a cripple to superman.
- 08-02-2006, 06:26 AM
Originally Posted by BigVrunga
...then, on the same bumper is some sort of pro-choice sticker...
Yeah...OK...save the whales and trees and protect the animals, but kill those unwanted babies...
08-02-2006, 06:42 AM
08-02-2006, 07:31 AM
See, if humans could give birth to Rhinos and other endangered animals, we wouldnt have a problem.Yeah...OK...save the whales and trees and protect the animals, but kill those unwanted babies...
08-02-2006, 08:09 AM
The problem the anti-stem cell people have(from the ones i've spoken and debated with). Believe that the problems will arise from abuse/misuse by the clinics. I see their concern I just don't think it trumps the benefits.
Risk vs. Reward is used all over.
08-02-2006, 09:34 AM
Dude...I'm literally almost falling out of my chair laughing so hard.Originally Posted by BigVrunga
I like the way you think Bro!
08-02-2006, 09:41 AM
I know i've given my fair share of trying.Originally Posted by BigVrunga
08-02-2006, 08:31 PM
No sweat. Happens to the best of us.Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
08-03-2006, 08:23 PM
why wouldn't you "buy in to the idea" that embryonic stem cell research has everything to with a fetus.you are a biology major so you very well know that zygote,blostocyst,embryo or fetus these are all terms to describe ONE thing a human being,they are some of the different stages of development of a human life,people who favor abortion and stem cell research use these terms to devalue that life but it is a life just the same.A zygote meets all the criteria for life,it grows, it has metabolic processes,it reacts to stimulation and it can(in the case of twinnig) reproduce.I do believe that if our govt. gives it's approval and funding to stem cell research those aborted fetus will be used next trust me that's how it works one unethical step at a time until we are completely desensitized. so I applaude our president for taking this stand.also it's worth saying again that stem cells can be obtained from other sources,umbilical cords,adults etc and can be obtained ethically and with full permission.Embryonic stem cells have also shown a greater proclivity to produce malignancies than adult stem cells.Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
08-03-2006, 08:52 PM
That's kind of analagous the 'patriot act' in a way, one little chip off our constitutional rights until we're a totalitarian dictatorship. (an extreme view, but nonetheless somewhat valid if things stay on their current course)A zygote meets all the criteria for life,it grows, it has metabolic processes,it reacts to stimulation and it can(in the case of twinnig) reproduce.I do believe that if our govt. gives it's approval and funding to stem cell research those aborted fetus will be used next trust me that's how it works one unethical step at a time until we are completely desensitized.
When our politicians value human life more than they value money or power, then your point will be very much valid. Not that I dont agree with you (in some cases I do), but I dont think the president's value of human life was his sole motivator for the veto. Like others have pointed out to me though, its a good thing he did. Most everything the government touches they **** up.why wouldn't you "buy in to the idea" that embryonic stem cell research has everything to with a fetus.you are a biology major so you very well know that zygote,blostocyst,embryo or fetus these are all terms to describe ONE thing a human being,they are some of the different stages of development of a human life,people who favor abortion and stem cell research use these terms to devalue that life but it is a life just the same.A zygote meets all the criteria for life,it grows, it has metabolic processes,it reacts to stimulation and it can(in the case of twinnig) reproduce.I do believe that if our govt. gives it's approval and funding to stem cell research those aborted fetus will be used next trust me that's how it works one unethical step at a time until we are completely desensitized. so I applaude our president for taking this stand.also it's worth saying again that stem cells can be obtained from other sources,umbilical cords,adults etc and can be obtained ethically and with full permission.Embryonic stem cells have also shown a greater proclivity to produce malignancies than adult stem cells.
If life was so important to these people, then they'd do everything they could to avoid wasting it. They'd also do everything they could to ensure that everyone led a healthty and prosperous life, but that's far from the reality of it.
08-03-2006, 09:55 PM
A zygote created in a petri dish, has ZERO chance of developing into a human being. None what so ever. It can only POSSIBLY develop into a human being, IF AND ONLY IF it is successfully implanted into a viable womb. Until it is successfully implanted into a viable womb, it has absolutely no chance whatseoever of becoming a fetus, no matter what you want to believe or have faith in. The future of a zygote in a petri dish is a dead end road. Zip. Nada. Zero. No chance of survival.
Lack of federal funding will simply mean holding back the research in America ONLY. It will only mean the foreign research institutes will have the best chance of making all the breakthrough. The extreme fundamentalists are only fooling themselves. You can's stop science. What you are doing, is simply hindering the chance of reducing suffering and death.
08-03-2006, 10:46 PM
That bolded part is correct, and it also contradicts your previous statement which is highly debatable.Originally Posted by BUCKNUTS
I find it much more appropriate to describe the above mentioned action as development from a single celled organism into a human being. There is no way I'd ever even consider the fact that a single celled organism, despite its fate, is a human being. It has the potential to become a human being, but as cloning has demonstrated, its not the only thing with potential (Look up Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer). Note: Somatic cells are any cell other than the two reproductive cells, and with somatic germ cells they were able to clone dolly the sheep.
Its either human, or its not. It takes weeks before an embryo becomes a fetus and is distinctly human.
08-03-2006, 11:06 PM
+100Lack of federal funding will simply mean holding back the research in America ONLY. It will only mean the foreign research institutes will have the best chance of making all the breakthrough. The extreme fundamentalists are only fooling themselves. You can's stop science. What you are doing, is simply hindering the chance of reducing suffering and death.
08-03-2006, 11:54 PM
We probably already have cures for almost anything that ales us but it is much more profitable to treat symptoms and prolong life in a state of sickness and continue to suck off the patient like a parasite instead of curing them. Locked up in a vault somewhere is the cure for cancer but maybe it is a natural substance that can not be synthesized and therefore not patentable = no profit. Oh BTW, steroids R bad mkay.
08-04-2006, 12:17 AM
There is no cure for cancer locked up anywhere. If there was such a cure, and even if there is no money to be made, it would have been published at the first chance. Imagine the goodwill, the recognition, and the publicity. Your name and the name of your organization (be it the research lab of a pharma, or an institute or a uni lab or a hospital lab) will be remembered forever. You would have left your mark on human history. You would sit in the Great Hall of Zeus till the end of time. Every medical student for generations to come, will worship at the feet of your statue.
Yeap. I am sure you would rather sit quitely on that unpatentable cure for cancer instead. Sure....
08-04-2006, 12:55 AM
Unless the team that discovered it was assisinated by the pharmaceutical company they worked for...Yeap. I am sure you would rather sit quitely on that unpatentable cure for cancer instead. Sure....
08-04-2006, 02:21 AM
Now that you mentioned it... There was this chopper hovering above my house at 3 am in the morning a few nights ago. And my PC has crashed mysteriously several times.. After I restored from backup, I detected an ftp connection to a server located in China... And furthermore, my cats have been acting unusual lately......
All of the above are honest to god truth.. hmmm.. Now I know how conspiracy theory gets started... I am going to open my safe and see if there is cure for cancer stuffed in there somewhere....
08-04-2006, 04:15 AM
I worked for the AJCC when I was in the Army before I got out and had a guy that approached the installation claming that they(gov't) implanted transmitters in his brain and has tapped his house. This guy was a very successful contractor too.
I thought I was gonna have to cap an ass that day, yo!
08-04-2006, 05:44 AM
There probably is!! While you're at it, see if you can find my lifting straps I can find those ****ers anywhereNow that you mentioned it... There was this chopper hovering above my house at 3 am in the morning a few nights ago. And my PC has crashed mysteriously several times.. After I restored from backup, I detected an ftp connection to a server located in China... And furthermore, my cats have been acting unusual lately......
All of the above are honest to god truth.. hmmm.. Now I know how conspiracy theory gets started... I am going to open my safe and see if there is cure for cancer stuffed in there somewhere....
08-04-2006, 09:16 AM
That was just flamboyance to illistrate how f'ed up the mentality of those pharm companies can be and their sole motivation, namely profits. I am not a conspiracy nut. Right wing wacko maybe but no nuts.
08-04-2006, 01:21 PM
Yes. There is drawback in the capitalist system of economy. Profit as a motivation has its limit and downside. Pharma companies have been raping the system for years with annual price hike far beyond any reasonable justification. It goes straight to the bottom line. When we analyze drug stocks, the growth rate is always based on rate of price hike (which is usually half of the total growth rate for the profit) plus sales growth.
There are other forms of systematic abuse by the drug industry, but I don't want to go into that. Else I would be spending the eternity here. lol
08-04-2006, 06:22 PM
I'm not sure why it is exactly you feel those statements are contadictory that would only be true if I believed like you that it takes weeks until it is human and I clearly do not believe that so no contradiction exists in these statements in my mind.I only agree with one of your statements,"it's either human or it's not" I could not have put it any more clearly or succinctly,well said.Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
08-04-2006, 07:13 PM
I agree with you for the most part,Bush did veto this in part for political reasons,he is after all a polititian.I am not a republican party member and I disagree with alot of what he has done,the patriot act being one that I disagree with most of all, and I completely agree with you it's a blow to our constitutional rights.Everytime I read that qoute in your sig. from Ben Franklin "those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" I think old Ben would not have been to fond of the patriot act.It seems that I am alone in my view on stem cell research, at least on this thread and that's fine with me,but to have people say that if you don't favor it they wish a "stem cell cureable disease" on you that's rediculous. I see all of your points and disagree, the ends do not always justify the means as I have already stated I would would rather die than benifit from what I believe to be an unethical,immoral application of science and medicine.If you don't agree with me I still hope any diseases you may contract are cureable(using adult stem cells).Originally Posted by BigVrunga
08-04-2006, 11:28 PM
You may be all bravado about rather to die than to have some zygotes on a petri dish got flushed down the tube. Just wait till you see your loved ones die in front of you, then you can come and tell me you are cool with it. Until then, it is all bull****. People talk about death and suffering like it is nothing. Yeah. Till you have watched a young life expires into eternity and forever, in front of you and your heart breaks into a thousand tears that, it hurts so much that, you would rather cut your heart out with a steak knife, you haven't lived and don't know **** **** about death and pain and suffering and all that. When you have hold your loved one and heard the last breathe comes out and gone forever, and you literally felt your heart hurt from inside out, and you truly felt the emptyness and despair, until then, it is all empty bravado.
08-05-2006, 12:17 AM
It was clearly contradictory.Originally Posted by BUCKNUTS
You said it is a human at conception, and then you said the zygote developes into a human (it undergoes a series of cellular divisions and differentiation.)
Either way, that was a minor point.
08-05-2006, 10:12 AM
I have been a critical care nurse for the past 14 years and and I have seen more death,suffering and despair than anyone should in a lifetime.This is the kind of nonsense that I hate you have no idea what I have been through, I'm 38 years old and I have held the hand of children and adult alike as they took thier last breath some family members included. My neice died at age 11 from cp and it was horrible, I would not wish that on my worse enemy. I still feel that the ends do not always justify the means,destroying life to save life is something I want no part of this is not bulls!t or bravado as so inaccurately assessed but rather a deeply held belief.Originally Posted by BioHazzard
08-05-2006, 10:14 AM
it is a human in an early stage of it's development I still don't see the contradiction. but ok iguessOriginally Posted by kwyckemynd00
08-05-2006, 10:24 AM
Bullsh1t! It is not the same. You were just a third party onlooker. You are just being self righteous about it. You have no idea what you are talking about. The fact that you think it is the same pain, tells me you are just sitting pretty on empty bravado. You don't know the difference because you have not felt it. And yes, that is why it is just empty bravado.Originally Posted by BUCKNUTS
Since you are a 38 yr old nurse, then you ought to know a few things:
You know damn well that mixing a sperm and an egg in a petri dish, does not create babies. You know damn well that the fertilized eggs have little chance of becoming fetus, EVEN if you try to implant it. You know damn well about the low success rate of implanting invitro fertilized eggs. You know damn well the argument that life begins at ferilization only applies in the womb, if at all. You know damn well you can't argue that flushing a petri dish full of fertilized eggs is an act of murder.
Since you know damn well you have no leg to stand on on those argument, the only thing you have is misguided philosophy.
So, all these bullsh1t bravado is just people like you trying to impose your misguided religious and personal belief onto others.
08-05-2006, 10:42 AM
A "third party onlooker" at the death of my neice you are ridiculous to even make a stupid statement like that.I value human life above all else I have never been accused of being dispassionate about the death of another human being before,I'm a bleeding heart in these areas. As usual you are wrong I do not wish to impose anything on anyone I'm mearly stating MY beliefs and also unlike you I recognize that others have different beliefs and I respect thier right to have and express that opinion.As usual any opinion that differs from your is "misguided" in almost every thread you post in it is you who are full of bravado.Originally Posted by BioHazzard
08-05-2006, 11:09 AM
Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about. You think it is the same kind of feeling. That is the proof there that you are just a tourist. You have not a clue.
Also, you don't even know what the hell bravado means.... sigh In those threads, I talked about facts on the ground, while others just wax philosophical BS. So yeah, facts on the ground beat philosophical BS any time of the day. That is called reality. Not bravado.
All yeah, like I said before, just b/c you have the right to express your opinions, does not mean they are correct.
Look, I am pretty sure, you are in all likelihood, a decent fellow and a good guy. I am sorry to have beaten up on you b/c of your position on this issue. You are not responsible for what went down. You just happened to agree with the position. Many of my compatriots agree with the position too. (But you all are still wrong. )
08-05-2006, 01:11 PM
Why call embryonic stemcell research destruction of human life? Why not call it murder? Because it would sound silly?
08-05-2006, 01:37 PM
I think you are confusing me with a religious zealot,which trust me I am not,please note that I never once mentioned God.Ethics and morality are not solely the domain of the religious.We do not agree on this issue but that does not mean it has to degenerate into name calling and mudd slinging.I respect your views,I see your points and I still disagree with them completely.In closing bravado has more than one meaning look it up.Originally Posted by BioHazzard
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