100's of WMD's found in iraq

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    100's of WMD's found in iraq


    This is just breaking, but it has been verified that coalition forces from 2003 and now have found over 500 units of WMD that contain Chemical and Biological Weapons consiting of Mustard gas and saran gas. The De-classified form of the doccument has confirmed they have found and have in posetion 500 units of these WMD's. Senate committee is currently looking over the classified doccument which hold even more information regarding more WMD finds In iraq and WMD found to have been moved out of Iraq. Senate is hoping to declassify more of this doccument.

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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    Lol.
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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    Quote Originally Posted by MaynardMeek
    This is just breaking, but it has been verified that coalition forces from 2003 and now have found over 500 units of WMD that contain Chemical and Biological Weapons consiting of Mustard gas and saran gas. The De-classified form of the doccument has confirmed they have found and have in posetion 500 units of these WMD's. Senate committee is currently looking over the classified doccument which hold even more information regarding more WMD finds In iraq and WMD found to have been moved out of Iraq. Senate is hoping to declassify more of this doccument.
    Yeah!

    (And Bush's polls creep up another 2%)
    My The 1 LOG: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/254164-my-one-log.html
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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    Quote Originally Posted by motiv8er
    Yeah!

    (And Bush's polls creep up another 2%)
    I seriously doubt this will matter regarding polls. He's been in charge during a war where over 2500 soldiers died, that probably has his party screwed more than a little, even if they turn out to be right about the WMDs. From what I understand though they are pre '91 war and might have even been buried before that war, so it's not a confirmation of an existing WMD program since the first gulf war. I'm waiting to see what else they have found.
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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    Repubs or Demos...Different sides of the same sleezy coin.
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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    more of the story... in full.. or sorta full ... something full.. maybe 50% full... i am gunna go now




    By THOMAS WATKINS
    Associated Press Writer

    (AP) - Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) and Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-Mich.) announced Wednesday the finding of over 500 munitions or weapons of mass destruction, specifically "sarin- and mustard-filled projectiles," in Iraq.

    Reading from unclassified portions of a document developed by the U.S. intelligence community, Santorum said, "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist."

    According to Santorum, "That means in addition to the 500, there are filled and unfilled munitions still believed to exist within the country."

    Reading from the document, Santorum added, "Pre-Gulf War Iraqi chemical weapons could be sold on the Black Market. Use of these weapons by terrorist or insurgent groups would have implications for coalition forces in Iraq. The possibility of use outside of Iraq cannot be ruled out. The most likely munitions remaining are sarin- and mustard-filled projectiles. And I underscore filled."

    Santorum said the "purity of the agents inside the munitions depends on many factors, including the manufacturing process, potential additives and environmental storage conditions."

    While acknowledging that the agents "degrade over time," the document said that the chemicals "remain hazardous and potentially lethal."

    The media has reported that "insurgents and Iraqi groups" want to "acquire and use chemical weapons," Santorum noted.

    The Pennsylvania senator called the finding "incredibly" significant.

    "The idea that, as my colleagues have repeatedly said in this debate on the other side of the aisle, that there are no weapons of mass destruction is in fact false," Santorum said. "We have found over 500 weapons of mass destruction and in fact have found that there are additional chemical weapons still in the country."
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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    I am not surprised. In my mind, Iraq and surrounding nations in the region probably all have biological weapons. It is simply a game of hide and seek.
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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    Quote Originally Posted by MaynardMeek
    more of the story... in full.. or sorta full ... something full.. maybe 50% full... i am gunna go now


    By THOMAS WATKINS
    Associated Press Writer

    (AP) - Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) and Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-Mich.) announced Wednesday the finding of over 500 munitions or weapons of mass destruction, specifically "sarin- and mustard-filled projectiles," in Iraq.

    Reading from unclassified portions of a document developed by the U.S. intelligence community, Santorum said, "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist."

    According to Santorum, "That means in addition to the 500, there are filled and unfilled munitions still believed to exist within the country."

    Reading from the document, Santorum added, "Pre-Gulf War Iraqi chemical weapons could be sold on the Black Market. Use of these weapons by terrorist or insurgent groups would have implications for coalition forces in Iraq. The possibility of use outside of Iraq cannot be ruled out. The most likely munitions remaining are sarin- and mustard-filled projectiles. And I underscore filled."

    Santorum said the "purity of the agents inside the munitions depends on many factors, including the manufacturing process, potential additives and environmental storage conditions."

    While acknowledging that the agents "degrade over time," the document said that the chemicals "remain hazardous and potentially lethal."

    The media has reported that "insurgents and Iraqi groups" want to "acquire and use chemical weapons," Santorum noted.

    The Pennsylvania senator called the finding "incredibly" significant.

    "The idea that, as my colleagues have repeatedly said in this debate on the other side of the aisle, that there are no weapons of mass destruction is in fact false," Santorum said. "We have found over 500 weapons of mass destruction and in fact have found that there are additional chemical weapons still in the country."

    This is the news? That our troops have stumbled across little caches of 30 year old mortar and artillery shells (which we supported Iraq using during the Iran-Iraq war)?

    The reason I'm so dismissive of this is the whole "we can now show you excerpts of a secret classified report"......just in time to try and save ourselves in the upcoming congressional elections.

    Ask yourself this. Can you think of a SINGLE reason why the finding of such projectiles would have been classified?

    A single one?

    Iraq is freakin covered with ammunition dumps and unexploded ordinance. I would be stunned if we hadn't been stumbling across and cleaning up such ordinance. Santorum is 30% behind in the polls and freakin desperate.
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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    one reason would be to hide the locations of said agents to maybe prevent anyone going in to find more in near by locations to use on us or sell? but again.. total guess on my part
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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    Quote Originally Posted by MaynardMeek
    one reason would be to hide the locations of said agents to maybe prevent anyone going in to find more in near by locations to use on us or sell? but again.. total guess on my part
    With 130,000 troops in country you'd imagine we would just take care of them. Sarin degrades really quickly. Mustard gas isn't all that bad as long as it isn't inhaled.

    Setting aside our usual political banter this just smells like the half-truths that got us into the war. If this were true. George Bush would have pulled out a box of them during the 2004 election to shut Kerry the hell up.
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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    you are 100% correct... if there was information during election time.. Bush should have waved that flag around like a PR on Pride Day...

    but... bush doesn't really care what anyone thinks.. so... hummmm ... or something
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    100's of WMD's found in iraq


    EDITED POST: Merged with existing thread on the same article.


    FOXNews.com - Report: Hundreds of WMDs Found in Iraq - U.S. Senate

    Report: Hundreds of WMDs Found in Iraq

    Wednesday, June 21, 2006




    WASHINGTON The United States has found 500 chemical weapons in Iraq since 2003, and more weapons of mass destruction are likely to be uncovered, two Republican lawmakers said Wednesday.

    "We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, chemical weapons," Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., said in a quickly called press conference late Wednesday afternoon.

    Reading from a declassified portion of a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center, a Defense Department intelligence unit, Santorum said: "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist."

    Click here to read the declassified portion of the NGIC report.

    He added that the report warns about the hazards that the chemical weapons could still pose to coalition troops in Iraq.

    "The purity of the agents inside the munitions depends on many factors, including the manufacturing process, potential additives and environmental storage conditions. While agents degrade over time, chemical warfare agents remain hazardous and potentially lethal," Santorum read from the document.

    "This says weapons have been discovered, more weapons exist and they state that Iraq was not a WMD-free zone, that there are continuing threats from the materials that are or may still be in Iraq," said Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

    The weapons are thought to be manufactured before 1991 so they would not be proof of an ongoing WMD program in the 1990s. But they do show that Saddam Hussein was lying when he said all weapons had been destroyed, and it shows that years of on-again, off-again weapons inspections did not uncover these munitions.

    Hoekstra said the report, completed in April but only declassified now, shows that "there is still a lot about Iraq that we don't fully understand."

    Asked why the Bush administration, if it had known about the information since April or earlier, didn't advertise it, Hoekstra conjectured that the president has been forward-looking and concentrating on the development of a secure government in Iraq.

    Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.

    "This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."

    The official said the findings did raise questions about the years of weapons inspections that had not resulted in locating the fairly sizeable stash of chemical weapons. And he noted that it may say something about Hussein's intent and desire. The report does suggest that some of the weapons were likely put on the black market and may have been used outside Iraq.

    He also said that the Defense Department statement shortly after the March 2003 invasion saying that "we had all known weapons facilities secured," has proven itself to be untrue.

    "It turned out the whole country was an ammo dump," he said, adding that on more than one occasion, a conventional weapons site has been uncovered and chemical weapons have been discovered mixed within them.

    Hoekstra and Santorum lamented that Americans were given the impression after a 16-month search conducted by the Iraq Survey Group that the evidence of continuing research and development of weapons of mass destruction was insignificant. But the National Ground Intelligence Center took up where the ISG left off when it completed its report in November 2004, and in the process of collecting intelligence for the purpose of force protection for soldiers and sailors still on the ground in Iraq, has shown that the weapons inspections were incomplete, they and others have said.

    "We know it was there, in place, it just wasn't operative when inspectors got there after the war, but we know what the inspectors found from talking with the scientists in Iraq that it could have been cranked up immediately, and that's what Saddam had planned to do if the sanctions against Iraq had halted and they were certainly headed in that direction," said Fred Barnes, editor of The Weekly Standard and a FOX News contributor.

    "It is significant. Perhaps, the administration just, they think they weathered the debate over WMD being found there immediately and don't want to return to it again because things are otherwise going better for them, and then, I think, there's mindless resistance to releasing any classified documents from Iraq," Barnes said.

    The release of the declassified materials comes as the Senate debates Democratic proposals to create a timetable for U.S. troops to withdraw from Iraq. The debate has had the effect of creating disunity among Democrats, a majority of whom shrunk Wednesday from an amendment proposed by Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts to have troops to be completely withdrawn from Iraq by the middle of next year.

    At the same time, congressional Republicans have stayed highly united, rallying around a White House that has seen successes in the last couple weeks, first with the death of terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, then the completion of the formation of Iraq's Cabinet and then the announcement Tuesday that another key Al Qaeda in Iraq leader, "religious emir" Mansour Suleiman Mansour Khalifi al-Mashhadani, or Sheik Mansour, was also killed in a U.S. airstrike.

    Santorum pointed out that during Wednesday's debate, several Senate Democrats said that no weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq, a claim, he said, that the declassified document proves is untrue.

    "This is an incredibly in my mind significant finding. The idea that, as my colleagues have repeatedly said in this debate on the other side of the aisle, that there are no weapons of mass destruction, is in fact false," he said.

    As a result of this new information, under the aegis of his chairmanship, Hoekstra said he is going to ask for more reporting by the various intelligence agencies about weapons of mass destruction.

    "We are working on the declassification of the report. We are going to do a thorough search of what additional reports exist in the intelligence community. And we are going to put additional pressure on the Department of Defense and the folks in Iraq to more fully pursue a complete investigation of what existed in Iraq before the war," Hoekstra said.

    FOX News' Jim Angle and Sharon Kehnemui Liss contributed to this report.
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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright
    If this were true. George Bush would have pulled out a box of them during the 2004 election to shut Kerry the hell up.
    Unless he honestly believed the information should have remained classified. I don't have a high opinion of politicians but they don't always act like scum. Reasons for classification aren't always clear, aren't always there. The government is in the habit of keeping secrets. Christ it took them like 5 decades to declassify info about experiments with mylar balloons. However, perhaps we don't necessarily have the manpower to get rid of them as quickly as we'd like, or as securely as we'd like. Maybe we have the manpower but can't make it a priority now for other reasons. Perhaps we don't want people knowing where the stashes are because they might discern a pattern in the stashes that would lead to finding undiscovered ones. Maybe any number of other reasons, up to and including the fact that these were pre '91 weapons and so not relevant to the debate.

    The idea that Republicans and/or Bush would take the beating they did over the WMD issue if they had proof otherwise seems just as fishy to me. I mean what's the plan, let themselves get ****ed left and right on this issue and then pull out the chastity belt? The Dems already shot their load over this issue and Reps have for the most part acknowledged it was a screw up. To turn around and then say "Oh, we were right..." makes them look even more idiotic and incompetent to anyone and everyone except their already loyal followers.
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    This is your explanation for this unexpected revelation:

    paSenateMay

    The latest Rasmussen Reports election poll in Pennsylvania shows Republican Senator Rick Santorum solidifying his standing as most vulnerable congressional incumbent this election season.

    Santorum now trails Democratic challenger Bob Casey 56% to 33%. Our latest survey of the governor's race also brings good news for the Democrat in that contest.
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    They closed down a post in Maryland and before they turned it over for civilian useage they had to dig through housing for UXO's. They found morters, artillary shells, grenades, and mustard gas...Military families had been living over this stuff for years.


    Of ****in course there's covered munitions over there.
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    We all know there are WMD, the US sold them too Iraq during their war with Iran. The gas used to kill all the Kurds was American purchased.
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    This is ridicoulous!!!

    Why can't both sides take some credit here and move on and right over other issues?

    Both, Republicans and Democrats should take credit for ousting Sadam Hussain, for him being tried right now, for killing his two scum sons, for killing Zarquai, for having a complete democratic government set up there.

    A lot of Democrats voted for this war. So they should be happy WMD's were found.

    I knew far left liberals would minimize this. We, as the general public know now that 5oo weapons of mass killings were found. Who knows, maybe there are tons more. To t*****ize this, as, well, these are pre 1991 weapons. HE WASN'T SUPPOSE TO HAVE ANY WMD's!!!!! NONE!!!!! And he agreed to that, well over 10 years ago.

    We werent just about re-constituted programs of WMD's, but also hiding old WMD's, that he was barring inspetors from finding.

    And using this as a ploy for the elections in Nov. Come on. That is ridicolous also. Bush would have used this info for his re-election that he was supposedly going to lose. There are only a few seats up for grabs. from now to Nov is a long time away. If that was the case, they would release this is mid Sept/Oct. By then this will be a story in the back pages.

    Far left liberals are really too much. The worst part is that the Democratic party is catering to these people. sad. This was the party of WW II.

    And to equate Iraq with WW II, that it is longer than WW II is forgetting a few facts. WW II was going on much longer than before we entered it. There was more American deaths in WW II. A nuke was used, 2x, to end that war. And we were in Europe and Japan a very long time, costing us plenty in troops, money to re-build those places.

    And then to equate Iraq with Vietnam is also forgetting facts. Vietnam lasted much longer and the death tolls were much greater.

    2500 American soliders killed in action is horrible. But in warfare, you have to put that in prospective compared to every other war we have been in. Excluding the 1st Gulf War, 2500 KIA is not alot. With that said, every soliders life is precious, and I pray for each and everyone of them to come back home, alive and in one piece.

    If Democrats didnt vote for this war, then they could dump on anything good coming out of there and say, lets get out. But they did vote to go to war. So the good things that come out of this, take some credit. Stand with the Republicans and say, HOORAH, for all the good positive things happening and weep for every solider that loses his life or a part of themselves there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinoTrainer
    So they should be happy WMD's were found.
    But they weren't. We have a Senator who is 30% behind in his re-election claiming that some decades old artillery shells are "WMDs" to try and salvage his sad political career. At best, they have some old (probably inert) battlefield munitions which I've heard reports about since shortly after "mission accomplished" was declared. There doesn't appear to be anything new here at all....just a new spin put out by some desperate politicians.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright
    But they weren't. We have a Senator who is 30% behind in his re-election claiming that some decades old artillery shells are "WMDs" to try and salvage his sad political career. At best, they have some old (probably inert) battlefield munitions which I've heard reports about since shortly after "mission accomplished" was declared. There doesn't appear to be anything new here at all....just a new spin put out by some desperate politicians.
    These are 500 missels filled with mustard and saran gasses. These were the same agents Sadam Hussian used to kill thousands of his own country men, women and children. And he didnt use 500 missels to do it either. This weapons are from 1991. That is only 15 years ago. I wouldnt be too comfortable with him selling, giving 500 missels filled with 15 year old sara and mustard gas missels to explode in our country.

    This is all new. and there is supposedly more out there. And dont forget all those tapes they found, which they are translating of sadam talking about WMD's and using them to go to war with us.

    This is insane. Saddam agreed right after the 1st Gulf war to get rid of his stock piles of WMD's, which included chemical and biological weapons. He agreed to not develop new WMD's. He agreed unfettered access by UN Inspectors to make sure his stock piles were gone and accounted for. He agreed to a no fly zone, to protect the kurds.

    And what did he do instead. He played games with the inspectors for over 10 years. Violated the no fly zone, and took shots at our piolts who were enforcing the no fly zone. They have tapes of him talking about re-constituting his WMD programs and we find old (1991 old missels, not 1941 missels, so I guess you would call 15 year old saran gas and mustard gas too old to use, your dreaming) WMD's that were suppose to have been destroyed and accounted for to the UN inspectors.

    I doubt Bush, politically speaking, would hold onto this report, for 5 years, just in case a few seats would be jeopardy of losing, when he, himself was in jeopardy of losing the presidency over Iraq. I think he would have pulled this card out to Kerry during the debates.

    I would love to see what liberals would say if Bin Laden is caught in the near future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinoTrainer
    I would love to see what liberals would say if Bin Laden is caught in the near future.
    They would say that the Marine that caught him was a Democrat
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinoTrainer
    These are 500 missels filled with mustard and saran gasses.
    500 missiles? Where do you get this? Not even Fox News is claiming this. Munitions are not the same as missiles. The term munitions generally refers to ammunition (not applicable here), mortar and artillery rounds. Missiles are an entirely different type of weapon and generally speaking, they aren't armed with nerve or blistering agents (they don't disperse well from a missile).

    EDITED: Just went and read the "report" released by Santorum. It's more of a joke than I originally thought. It talks about "filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War" (i.e. from the Iran-Iraq war) "projectiles" are "assessed to still exist.". In other words, they've found a couple hundred old artillery shells and mortar rounds (some empty, some containing degraded traces of old chemical weapons) and they are guessing (assessed) that there are others laying about the country.



    I think the real story here is "Senator Santorum in a desperate bid to save his failing re-election campaign issues blatantly false claims about WMDs."
    Last edited by yeahright; 06-22-2006 at 02:35 AM.
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    All the argument over WMD as the cause of regime change in Iraq, misses one irrefutable fact, ie. Saddam was on the verge of getting rid of UN sanction and was on track to reconstitute his temporarily halted WMD programs. There was no ambiguity about this. UN Oil for Food program was already busted by Saddam. The weapon inspectors were thrown out of Iraq long ago. Saddam was shooting at Allied airplanes everyday. Saddam was at the brink of success in enlisting Russia, China and the hypocritical French and German to lift UN sanction. Saddam has already invited Al Qaeda over to Iraq. Zarqawi met Dr Germs and Mrs Anthrax, 2 of Saddam's biological weapon specialists.

    Anyone who thinks that it was wrong to get rid of Saddam simply either does not know all the facts or chooses to ignore them. Anyone who thinks that Saddam was going to live a life of peace and harmony and be like Dalai Lama, is a ****ing moron.
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    All this bellyaching reminds me of a remark by a retired intelligence operative.

    He said if we had gone into Afghanistan and killed Osama before 9/11, all the leftists and bleeding heart would be crying foul. They would be crying about no evidence of Osama intending to carry out 9/11. They would be crying about there was no evidence of any bomb. They would be crying about a crap load of other legality garbage.

    So, what else is new?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DinoTrainer
    ....I would love to see what liberals would say if Bin Laden is caught in the near future.....
    1. They would say it doesn't matter, because Al Qaeda is sooo powerful.

    2. They would say it doesn't change a thing, because Jihad is so frightening.

    3. They would say it doesn't matter as they are a thousand Osama's to take his place.

    4. They would say it doesn't matter, because America is still the threat to world peace and is responsible for all the terrorism in the world.


    Until we catch Osama, they will just complain that Osama is still at large.

    Liberals are genetically predisposed to talking from both sides of the mouth.
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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright
    ..... If this were true. George Bush would have pulled out a box of them during the 2004 election to shut Kerry the hell up....
    During the 2004 campaign there was a brief period when reelection looked like in doubt, Bush agonized over whether to release classified information regarding the success made in the gloabl war against terrorism. It was a choice between potentially jeorpadizing the continuing war effort and thus risking American and its allies' lives, and winning an election. Ultimately Bush decided not to compromise the war effort. Still, he went on and got re-elected, and thus passed the test of true character.

    When historians look back, the world will remember GW Bush as one of the greatest American Presidents.
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    June 21, 2006
    Poll: Santorum Approval Rating Declines
    By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

    Filed at 11:09 a.m. ET

    HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) -- Sen. Rick Santorum's approval rating has skidded to a four-year low, the latest sign of distress for the outspoken conservative and ally of President Bush, according to a poll released Wednesday.

    The lead for Santorum's Democratic opponent, state Treasurer Bob Casey, has stretched to 18 percentage points since early May.

    Casey leads Santorum by 52 percent to 34 percent -- the biggest margin since October, when the numbers were the same, according to the Quinnipiac University poll.

    Only 38 percent of respondents said they approved of the way Santorum, the third-ranking Republican in the Senate, is handling his job. Forty-five percent said they disapproved and 16 percent did not express an opinion.

    It was the first time Santorum's approval rating dropped below 40 percent since Quinnipiac began measuring it in June 2002.

    Bush's approval rating in the state rebounded somewhat in the latest poll, to 34 percent from 30 percent in May. The proportion of Pennsylvania voters who approved of Bush's handling of the war in Iraq increased to 35 percent from 29 percent.

    ''Senator Santorum appears to be his own worst enemy in his battle for re-election,'' said Clay F. Richards, assistant director of the Connecticut-based university's polling institute.

    In the May survey, Casey, the son of late Democratic Gov. Robert P. Casey, led Santorum by 49 percent to 36 percent.

    More than 40 percent of Casey's supporters said they are more against electing Santorum to a third term than for Casey, the poll showed.

    Virginia Davis, a Santorum campaign spokesman, said polls are unreliable at this stage in the campaign. Santorum plans to air the first statewide TV commercials of his campaign on Friday, she said.

    Larry Smar, a spokesman for the Casey campaign, agreed that it is too early to read too much into the polls but that Casey's continuing strength in polling bodes well for the November election.

    Quinnipiac conducted telephone interviews with 1,076 Pennsylvania voters between June 13 and Monday. The results carry a sampling margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

    ------

    On the Net:

    Quinnipiac polls in Pennsylvania: Quinnipiac University | Pennsylvania (PA)
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    Re: WMD's Found In Iraq


    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    During the 2004 campaign there was a brief period when reelection looked like in doubt, Bush agonized over whether to release classified information regarding the success made in the gloabl war against terrorism. It was a choice between potentially jeorpadizing the continuing war effort and thus risking American and its allies' lives, and winning an election. Ultimately Bush decided not to compromise the war effort. Still, he went on and got re-elected, and thus passed the test of true character.

    When historians look back, the world will remember GW Bush as one of the greatest American Presidents.
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    Yeah. But Bush is the president and you are not.

    You can't argue with history, and history is being made by GW Bush. History will remember GW Bush well. And his critics? Who will remember them or even know of them?

    What can you do?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    Yeah. But Bush is the president and you are not.

    You can't argue with history, and history is being made by GW Bush. History will remember GW Bush well. And his critics? Who will remember them or even know of them?

    What can you do?

    LOL. It's all good. You're entitled to your (crazy) opinions.
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    Your irrational hatred has blinded you and rendered you unable to recognize an exceptionally noble and selfless act.

    We must not let our emotion cloud out rational thought. Especially not for a lawyer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    Your irrational hatred has blinded you and rendered you unable to recognize an exceptionally noble and selfless act.

    We must not let our emotion cloud out rational thought. Especially not for a lawyer.
    I love when Republicans pull this. It seems like no one is capable of disagreeing with Bush without being "blinded by hatred."

    *sigh*

    Anyway, on the subject of Santorum, I can't stand him. I just wish the Republicans would tell him he can't run again and replace him. I don't even know this Casey guy, but generally speaking I hate Democratic Senators because of their support of ridiculous spending bills.

    It's like what Louis Black said about the 2004 election. When you go in there to vote, you have a choice between 2 piles of ****. The only difference is the smell.

    So I always vote for a Libertarian when one is available. Yeah my vote is a waste, but if no one sticks to their ideals then change will never happen. Personally I like the way the German system works. They assess percentage of votes for each party and determine how many reps will be in government based on that. So even smaller parties get to have a few representatives as long as they have enough votes. In our system it's majority or nothing because each elected official is voted on specifically.


    Oh, and about the "WMDs", a bunch of degraded, inactive canisters and shell casings don't really say much to me. Especially ones that have been buried for several decades. We act like Iraq had this phenominal record keeping system. Honestly if you ask me, their method of "destroying" most of these things was likely just to bury them. It costs too much to actually dispose of them and Iraq didn't have that kind of cash with all the sanctions against them. Heck I wonder if they even had the means by which to destroy most of them.
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    this is going to go down to be just like bill clinton's "what is "is"" Dems beat their chest saying there have not been any WMD's in Iraq at all. And Bush lied yada yada... so whats going to happen is this...

    We can obviously can see that bush didn't lie.. there were WMDs in Iraq ( though due to faulty world wide information) the WMD's is pre gulf war... but.. saddam obviously knew about it even after the gulf....so something like that will happen...
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright
    LOL. It's all good. You're entitled to your (crazy) opinions.
    Actually he's probably right. Even if the far left opinion of Bush is correct in a large sense he will go down in history as one of our greatest presidents. Every president who agrandizes state power and expands it to any significant degree is remembered as great by the mostly pro state intellectuals, left and right alike. Some of our supposedly greatest presidents, like Lincoln, were borderline if not over the border fascist or socialist in their political leanings and policies. And now, 'we' celebrate them.

    As for the WMDs I seriously doubt a lot of liberals would acknowledge they were there even if our military found thousands of nuclear and biological weapons in boxes labeled "Made in Iraq/Destination: Random Al Qeda Cells." I don't often agree with Biohazard, and while I don't necessarily think he's right about anyone here, way too many liberals are blinded by hate for George Bush to acknowledge anything positive about him. He's a war time president and he's just going to take a lot of flack for that. It's inevitable that most of it will come from the other party, and that some large degree of people will be unhinged over the issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    ...We act like Iraq had this phenominal record keeping system. ....
    We don't act. We know for a fact. One of the reasons the Europeans are so against the invasion is the intelligence archive the Iraqis kept. All those records of black room dealing.

    When we took Baghdad, the US got the intelligence bonanza. We took the whole archive of Saddam's dealing with the Europeans (how do you think the corruption of the UN Oil for Food program was discovered?) and the whole archive of Russia's spy network in the middle east, operating out of their Iraqi liason offices. Word is, we got some record of Chirac's family business dealing with Saddam and co. Chirac has been a good buddy of Saddam for years. It was Chirac who sold him the nuke reactor that the Israelis took out in Osirak. (Only the French can pretend with a straight face that the world's second largest oil reserve needs nuclear reactor for energy.) The funny thing is, before the invasion to topple Saddam, Chirac actually offered to lead the invasion. His condition was, the French alone would take and occupy Baghdad. Yeah, the American knew he wanted to secure the papers that link him to Saddam. Tough sh1t, Chirac! After that, the French decided that invading Iraq is a bad thing. LOL

    Well, word is, the US got the whole archive instead. And the papers will be used to blackmail Chirac when necessary. LOL

    In most dictatorship, exhaustive record keeping is the norm. When you work for a murderous scum like Saddam and co, you need all the paperwork to cover your ass. So, good record keeping is a matter of necessity, when you work for a ruthless murderer.

    As for WMD, we have tons of solid info on what WMD materials Iraq had and are currently unaccounted for. Hundreds of tons of chemicals and toxins, don't just disappear into thin air. The last I heard, we had the coordinates where they are buried in the Syrian desert. That is not some top secret. The information was given to Dr. Hans Blix. I have no idea why there is no follow up on that. It is widely known, among the intelligence circle, that the Baathists, the Syrians and the French intelligence have been collaborating hard to makesure that no WMD can be found in Iraq. Their objective is to deny the US any proof. The Baathist's case is clear. The Syrian did it, because they wanted the Iraq invasion to be a failure. They are afraid that they will be experiencing regime change too. The French.. oh well. Nothing new there.


    On further note, when Libya came clean on its WMD program, the Libyans handed over their whole archive on WMD. We got the whole dossier on the international nuclear blackmarket with Pakistan's A.Q. Khan as the center figure.

    With the European's dramatic failure in persuading Iran to abandon going nuclear, several Gulf states are procuring their own nukes with the help of Pakistan. So, a fine mess is in the making. Let's see how long it takes for all the haters to blame it all on America and Bush.
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    LOL, Department of Defense and CIA official refute Santorum's claims about WMDs being found:


    FOX NEWS:

    Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.

    "This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."

    "It turned out the whole country was an ammo dump," he said, adding that on more than one occasion, a conventional weapons site has been uncovered and chemical weapons have been discovered mixed within them.


    New York Times, June 23, 2006

    "Two Republicans, Representative Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, and Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania held a news conference on Wednesday to announce that, as Mr. Santorum put it, "We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."

    American intelligence officials hastily scheduled a background briefing for the news media on Thursday to clarify that. Hoekstra and Mr. Santorum were referring to an Army report that described roughly 500 munitions containing "degraded" mustard or sarin gas, all manufactured before the 1991 gulf war and found scattered through Iraq since 2003.

    Such shells had previously been reported and do not change the government conclusion, the officials said."
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    all those ****ty WMD were given to the Iraqi's by the U.S to help aide in the fight against Iran during the 80's
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright
    LOL, Department of Defense and CIA official refute Santorum's claims about WMDs being found:

    FOX NEWS:

    Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.

    "This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."

    "It turned out the whole country was an ammo dump," he said, adding that on more than one occasion, a conventional weapons site has been uncovered and chemical weapons have been discovered mixed within them.


    New York Times, June 23, 2006

    "Two Republicans, Representative Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, and Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania held a news conference on Wednesday to announce that, as Mr. Santorum put it, "We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."

    American intelligence officials hastily scheduled a background briefing for the news media on Thursday to clarify that. Hoekstra and Mr. Santorum were referring to an Army report that described roughly 500 munitions containing "degraded" mustard or sarin gas, all manufactured before the 1991 gulf war and found scattered through Iraq since 2003.

    Such shells had previously been reported and do not change the government conclusion, the officials said."
    This is only bad for Santorum and Hoekstra. It has no relevance on anything else. OTOH, you can say this shows that the administration does not spin nor lie about the facts, which is a lot more than what one can say about the previous administration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    This is only bad for Santorum and Hoekstra. It has no relevance on anything else. OTOH, you can say this shows that the administration does not spin nor lie about the facts, which is a lot more than what one can say about the previous administration.
    It also means this report means diddly squat.


    Btw, you were right about Saddam and record keeping. I did some looking up on that, and they were meticulous. In fact, they kept extensive audio records of ALL of their cabinet meetings. There is one particular set of tapes that was analyzed that discussed terrorism in the US and Iraq's WMD program. The conclusions and what was said?

    1) Saddam said terrorist acts were goin to happen to the US but Iraq will NOT be a part these acts or be involved in any way, just that he predicts they will happen
    3) They planned to start up a WMD program when conditions permitted but conditions did not permit.


    In other words, the tapes showed that Iraq was NOT linked to terrorism against the USA and they showed that although Iraq wanted a WMD program and would have started one given the chance, they did not have a WMD program.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    It also means this report means diddly squat.


    Btw, you were right about Saddam and record keeping. I did some looking up on that, and they were meticulous. In fact, they kept extensive audio records of ALL of their cabinet meetings. There is one particular set of tapes that was analyzed that discussed terrorism in the US and Iraq's WMD program. The conclusions and what was said?

    1) Saddam said terrorist acts were goin to happen to the US but Iraq will NOT be a part these acts or be involved in any way, just that he predicts they will happen
    3) They planned to start up a WMD program when conditions permitted but conditions did not permit.

    In other words, the tapes showed that Iraq was NOT linked to terrorism against the USA and they showed that although Iraq wanted a WMD program and would have started one given the chance, they did not have a WMD program.
    I've been looking here and there for translations of those tapes, where'd you find them? I'd be interested in reading more. To the points you made I think you're right, but in the end that means we would have had to continue the sanctions, UN inspections, enforcement of no fly zones and who knows what other measures to keep Saddam marginalized until he died or there was some other shift in the regime that allowed a lessening or removal of those policies. Not to mention that most estimates say those sanctions resulted in the deaths of more than 30-50 times as many Iraqis as did the current war, mostly the poor Iraqis. Those sanctions and our presence in Saudi Arabia were also key points in UBL's mobilization against the US, so there's no guarantee that following that course wouldn't have pissed the terrorists off just as much as the Iraq war. Despite what can justly be seen as strategy screw ups I'm coming more to the opinion that the Iraq war while not justified may have been the only practical solution to ****ty problem that we created ourselves. And lest we forget the apparently unstoppable US urge to mess around in other countries and get ourselves involved in lots of messes is not limited to Republican nation builders.

    Not arguing with you on this Null, just seems to me that a lot of people leveling criticisms at Bush, especially on humanitarian grounds, seem to forget the previous situation wasn't all that wonderful itself, either in a humanitarian sense or a strategic sense. We truly were acting as the world police force there, constant patrols and munitions dropped on a regular basis, which would have had to continue to keep this guy marginalized. I guess if you have cancer and have two options, limit its growth or get rid of it, getting rid of it should be the answer unless there's some major health risk involved that's more dangerous to keeping it around, and of course one would also have to weight the benefits of success into that, however unlikely.
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    Btw, regarding this:

    “We have not told them the truth about the imported material,” one says. He adds, “Where was the nuclear material transported to? A number of them were transported out of Iraq.” He also says: “We will confess, but not to the biological program.”

    IIRC in 1996 they DID fess up about the biological program after UN investigations uncovered discrepencies in data. These tapes were from circa 1995.
  

  
 

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