Officer refuses to go to Iraq
- 06-08-2006, 07:02 AM
Officer refuses to go to Iraq
komo news | Fort Lewis Soldier Says He'll Refuse To Go To Iraq
This really pisses me off. I think this guy is just a candy-ass pansy. He probably joined the military just to get free college and never actually expected to have to defend his country. I hope he gets court martialed and spends some significant time in a military prison. I bet the other soldiers in his unit feel this way too.
And what is this crap about an "illegal" war? How can this war be illegal when Congress authorized it? He must think American policy should be dictated by the United Nations
- 06-08-2006, 01:43 PM
- 06-08-2006, 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by ArnoldIsMyIdol
06-08-2006, 01:47 PM
wow... just like a female to find some excuse not to go to a combat zone. not saying all women do it..
06-08-2006, 01:50 PM
06-08-2006, 01:53 PM
06-08-2006, 01:53 PM
Yes you can have them, but they just don't mean much, unless you got the stripes and the stars.Originally Posted by Brent
06-08-2006, 01:55 PM
they mean something when someone actually voices it. you'd be surprised at the number of "injuries" that are suddently acquired right before a combat situation that makes them undeployable.
sure, it's a job and he signed up for the duty. but i ask this: would you risk death for something you don't believe in?
06-08-2006, 01:56 PM
06-08-2006, 02:01 PM
Well, I never thought this war was a great idea, however if I were a service member I would perform my duties to the best of my abilities..that's what you swear to do when you enlist. There really is no way around that IMO.
A soldier does not have the luxury of picking and chosing their battles. They can question or refuse orders that are not legal, but outside of that..ya gotta roll when told to.
06-08-2006, 02:02 PM
true, but you kinda lose faith in the system when your commander in chief changes his purpose for the war on a whim. i went because i thought we were looking for nuclear weapons. turns out, that was a lie.Originally Posted by bioman
06-08-2006, 02:03 PM
okay good point... BUT... he went to college, hell.. maybe even to West Point or Citadel with the prior knowledge that he could be and will be deployed at some point in time.... if he is an infantry officer then he knew damn well what he was getting himself into. basiclly your tax dollars paid for his college degree, he didnt. I dont like having to goto 3rd world countries to get shot at for no reason.. but it has to be done. I'll happily go back to Iraq or afghanistan...Originally Posted by Beelzebub
06-08-2006, 02:12 PM
When you signed up, you signed up to fight the country's battles and to obey the chain of command. You don't sign up to join only the battles that you believe in or to obey only those commands you agree with. If you can't live up to that, then don't sign up.
06-08-2006, 02:15 PM
06-08-2006, 02:32 PM
Everything in life involves choices. And the choices you make, have consequences. You don't get to pick and choose what you like, out of a chain of events that you initiate by the choices you make. That is life, like it or not.
The military will not be able to function if the soldiers are to decide, on the eve of battle, if they are going to saddle up or to sit out this one. Men like that, do not belong to the warrior elite.
06-08-2006, 02:40 PM
good point. but would you rather have your back guarded by a nervous friendly with a firearm who is already confused as to why he is there? there are a lot of consequences to consider here that are not being looked at other than "fulfulling his duty", which is true - he should fulfill it. but not everything is so black and white.
06-08-2006, 02:42 PM
I have a lot of respect for you and I thank you for your service.Originally Posted by Beelzebub
I have to say though, that it is not a soldier's place to decide whether the war is just or not.
06-08-2006, 02:44 PM
again, this is easy to say on a board. your perspective changes real quick when you feel your butt pucker up at the sound of an AK-47 being fired in your direction, or when a car bomb goes off and all you see is a red mist that used to be your buddy.Originally Posted by jrkarp
06-08-2006, 02:51 PM
I know that perspectives change.
But he volunteered to be an artillery officer (I'm pretty sure I saw him wearing field artillery insignia on one of the news sites) in the United States Army. He volunteered for this job, knowing full well what it entailed and what risk he was taking, and also swearing an oath to follow orders. I am not aware of how he got his commission, but it was most likely ROTC or via West Point, so he got a college education out of the US taxpayers.
I could respect him a little of he filed for conscientious objector status, saying that he now realizes that he opposes all war.
But for him to do this in this manner, especially criticizing the Army and the president like this, while men are fighting and dying, I feel is inexcusable. How would it feel to be in Iraq and see this news, that one of your brothers, a 'leader' is acting in this way?
06-08-2006, 03:00 PM
i've pretty much said all that i needed to say, it's starting to go in circles. this is just my opinion on the matter and it could very well be wrong.
06-08-2006, 03:05 PM
How many times do I have to tell you... you have no opinion!Originally Posted by Beelzebub
Beelzebub.... remember the atomicnutrition boards? I always pictured you as a small dude. haha
06-08-2006, 03:08 PM
06-08-2006, 03:56 PM
Sort of a brick wall when it comes to these situations.
1. ou signed up to fight for the country and it's interests(that would include oil etc)
2. We tried Nazi military members for war crimes because they followed their commands.
No, this isn't Nazi Germany or anything close to it but I used a drastic comparison for a reason.
You expect the military to do what they are told regardless because that is what they signed up for but at the same token you all expect them to know when to just decide when they should step back and not do something.
Just like Beelz said. It's easy to armchair these things but try being in the shoes and figuring this all out. It's a rough life with rough decisions. If he/she is willing to take the consequences then go for it. They stood up for what they believed in and paid the price. Not much you can say about that and unless you know a person you can't decide if they are a coward or not. I know people who have pulled people from burning buildings while getting injured themselves that would not want to fight in this war. Does that make them a coward? I don't think so.
06-08-2006, 03:58 PM
You're entitled to your opinion, and opinions themselves cannot be wrong.Originally Posted by Beelzebub
06-08-2006, 04:03 PM
There are circumstances under which soldiers are obligated not to follow orders. Military personnel are not under an obligation to obey illegal orders (such as an order to mow down a room full of unarmed women and children or summarily execute a prisoner) and can be punished for doing so.Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
Of course, during a time of war, you can be summarily executed (i.e., shot on the spot) for refusing to obey an order, but I don't think that's happened in over 100 years.
06-08-2006, 04:10 PM
Yeah, on paper it looks good but the probem comes when you're knee deep in the **** and you have to make those decisions and taking that all in with the circumstances. You're required to follow orders and you're required to know when they are illegal but I don't ever remember getting the illegal order hand book when I was in.
06-08-2006, 04:14 PM
I've never seen it in the manual either. It is ****ty to hold people to a standard that they are not informed of. But that's the military.Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
06-08-2006, 04:18 PM
Yup, which is why I just shrug when stories like these come up. This person decided to take the heat round prior to being in the war and putting themselves in a situation where lives could of been in danger/lost.
It would be one thing to want out of going and thinking you didn't have to suffer the penalties that comes along with it.
06-08-2006, 05:27 PM
I totally respect what you are saying, Beezle. If I were enlisted and involved directly in this military mess..I'd have a pretty wicked attitude about now. I'd like to "think" I would do all my duties, but can't possibly know that having never been in a war. I do know I could certainly lose it in a combat situation where I am questioning my involvment in that theater.
06-08-2006, 05:29 PM
I'm not sure how he got his commission, but it wasn't through ROTC and it wasn't from West Point. He didn't even get his commission until after the war started. You almost have to question his motives when it comes to joining after the war started and being in control of a Stryker brigade which pretty much assures that you're gonna go to war. His commitment was only for three years, his commitment is done in December. He volunteered for this and he knows exactly what he was getting into, with circumstances like that you almost have to wonder if he joined for the sole purpose of doing this.
06-08-2006, 05:32 PM
He went through OCS? OCS is the hardest way in the Army to become an officer. If that's how he got his commission, I am extremely surprised that he is doing this now. (I'm assuming OCS, because direct commissions in non-specialty branches are extremely rare and I don't think we're doing battlefield commissions in this war.)Originally Posted by mywetnightmares
At least my tax dollars didn't pay for his education though.
06-08-2006, 05:54 PM
06-08-2006, 06:10 PM
That and the way he is going about this, as in making lots of noise about the political side of it....Originally Posted by mywetnightmares
He does not look like his is under a lot of stress or pressure neither. He looks pretty happy about the stink he is causing.
Army officer refuses to deploy to Iraq on Yahoo! News Photos
Before you know it, the sleaze ball will be running for Congress in some bleeding heart district. This charade seems like a campaign stunt. He is not new to politics. His father is the head of the Campaign Spending commission in Haiwaii.
If he is actually willing to bear the consequences as he proclaimed, he would not be rallying the bleeding hearts as shown in the photos. Hypocrite. He is putting on a dog and pony show.
06-08-2006, 07:12 PM
Everyone wants their 15 minutes. If he has an agenda then he needs to suffer max. consequences under melingering among as many other UCMJ infractions as possible.
06-08-2006, 07:18 PM
agreed. if there are ulterior motives that he's not speaking of, then feed him to the wolves. hell, just for not going when he's supposed to go, max him out. i'm just saying that i don't believe this issue is so night and day, right and wrong. this won't be the last one to do this.Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
06-08-2006, 07:50 PM
Probably not, but I would like to point out that almost all of the of soldiers and marines that I have spoken to who have served in Iraq (and it's been quite a few) are very supportive of both the war and of the president. That's all I am going to say about that because I do not want the thread to diverge from the main topic.Originally Posted by Beelzebub
I get the feeling that this guy is out to make a political statement. He gets commissioned after the war starts, into a unit that virtually guarantees combat, and then acts like this, all smiling and easy about it? Doesn't smell right.
I also don't like seeing him wearing the uniform. I know he can, but I just don't like it.
06-08-2006, 08:12 PM
Beelze (or anyone else who has served),
I would like to ask your perspective on something. This guy was an officer, a leader. He trained with his men. He led them. Now he's making a spectacle of himself. Regardless of how he feels personally about the war, is he not acting selfishly by allowing his guys to go into a combat zone, while he stays home acting like this?
My perspective is a little different, because I went through ROTC (had to leave for personal reasons, as I switched to being a part time student for a while, and as I was not on scholarship, they let me out), but as someone who has had officer training, to me what he is doing seems almost like a betrayal of his guys.
06-08-2006, 10:23 PM
I don't think that this lieutenant knows how much trouble he could be in.
First, he stated, "It is the duty, the obligation of every soldier, and specifically the officers, to evaluate the legality, the truth behind every order — including the order to go to war." This is wrong It is not the duty of every soldier to evaluate the legality of every order. It is the duty of every soldier is to follow all LAWFUL orders.
It sounds as if he has been planning this. If it can be proven that he is doing this to encourage other soldiers to do this, he would be guilty of formenting a mutiny - a capital offense. This is Article 94 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice:
ART. 94. MUTINY OR SEDITION
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;
(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;
(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.
(b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court- martial may direct.
Smells funny to me. In my mind either the Army gave a commission to an idiot not aware of current events or he planned this all along.
06-08-2006, 10:32 PM
here some info that goes a little deeper into the motive behind all of this.
Hawaii Reporter: Hawaii Reporter
Hawaii Reporter: Hawaii Reporter
Update: Here is some registration information concerning the proprietor of the Watada support website...
Created On:31-May-2006 1832 UTC
Last Updated On:31-May-2006 18:30:39 UTC
Expiration Date:31-May-2007 1832 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:Nettuner Corp. dba Webmasters.com (R1310-LROR)
Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
Registrant Name:Jeff Paterson
Registrant Organization:Not in Our Name
06-09-2006, 12:44 AM
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