girl in my homeroom doesnt stand for pledge
- 09-11-2005, 12:59 PM
- 09-11-2005, 01:53 PM
Have you considered that she might be Canadian, or a member of a religion such as Jehovah's Witness that prohibits it on theological grounds?
(My parents are Canadian, and while they would not recite the Pledge of Allegiance they opted to stand among others in respect, but that's an individual choice. Some non-citizens do not stand, and it's not a slight it's just a custom)
09-11-2005, 01:57 PM
On the Iraq issue - I respect every soldier who is willing to sacrifice his life for his country - but the unfortunate American military personnel that are dying in Iraq are not dying for the freedom of the US or to protect the rights of its citizens- they were sent there by the US government to fight a war that is based purely on oil. They have dressed it up as a mission to "save" the people of Iraq or to make the world safer by elliminating a dictator who "had weapons of mass destruction" - the people of Iraq are not saved - there were no WMD's - The truth of the matter is that the US foreign policy towards countries with vast reserves of oil is riddled with double standards. On one hand we have members of the Bush administration harping on about ridding the world of dictators like Saddam to bring liberty and democracy to the Iraq people - on the other hand they spew out propaganda against a democratically elected leader of Venezuela simply because Mr. Chavez is of the opinion that the people of his country and not US corporations should benefit from the sale of his oil - they call him a collaborator with the "axis of evil" . Only in the last few days the Bush administration is looking for international support in imposing sanctions on Iran for developing nuclear capabilities - Iran has the right to do what it likes - if its enemies can build nuclear weapons then why shouldn't it have them too. It seems too much of a coincidence that Iran is endowed with vast oil reserves.
I am not anti American - I have lived in the US for a time and it is a great country no doubt -it has done much good for the world. Its foreign policy however is far from being just or right. Maybe this girl realised that and this is her way of protesting.
09-11-2005, 02:12 PM
Your right, we wont stop because society and pop culture "pounded it in our head" that it was acceptabe.Originally Posted by Brooklyn
09-11-2005, 02:22 PM
As opposed to before, when society and religion pounded it in our head that sex was wrong, dirty and evil?Originally Posted by davisville64
09-11-2005, 02:33 PM
You forgot that back in the day there were fewer teen pregnancies and less adultry.Originally Posted by Brooklyn
09-11-2005, 03:27 PM
Yes, and racism, social inequality of the sexes, sheltered ignorance and blind faith in religious leaders and government. With change comes challenges. The real problem leading to more teen pregnancies and more adultery is a lack of proper education. If kids were taught to value other people as well as themselves, taught proper and all-inclusive sex education, taught to be absolutely sure they had found the right partner for life before making such a serious commitment, these problems could be mostly avoided.You forgot that back in the day there were fewer teen pregnancies and less adultry.
Where do I place the majority of the blame? On the conservatives who fail to change with the needs of society. When a theory is disproven, it is no longer advanced as viable or useful for scientific research. The conservatives believe in beating a dead horse long after it has rotted to the bone. Teaching the same limited and outdated material doesn't help anyone, it just causes either unrealistic thinking or the student to ignore his teachers. When schools teach kids family values, they make them believe that they should find someone and marry them. Yet, at the same time, there is more emphasis than ever on self-satisfaction at the expense of others. This leads to mismatched couples who commit too early when they might have found someone for whom they are better suited. They wind up married and miserable, and often either divorce or if they follow their conservative upbringing, find an outlet from their frustrations with their partner in the form of an affair. You tell me that these people would not have been better off just being single or breaking it off before it was too late. Then there's often children involved, who suffer most from the wants and fights of their unhappy parents. If these people were taught to date extensively instead of jumping into marriage with the first person who caught their eye much of that problem could be avoided.
09-11-2005, 05:59 PM
I disagree. The only thing that needs to be increased is moral values, not education. Everyone knows that if you bang the girl might get pregnant. As for adultry goes, if you one day decide you picked the wrong partner, get a divorce. Dont go cheating on him/her.Originally Posted by Brooklyn
09-12-2005, 03:42 AM
That's absurd. If you're not increasing education, you're decreasing education. Decreasing education means you favor more ignorance over more knowledge. What are "moral values"? Who defines what is moral and what is not? I'd bet I would have a very different idea of what "moral values" are than you. This is the whole point I made about discrimination. By assuming that everyone would or should adhere to your sense of morality, you close your mind to the reality that not everyone thinks or believes what you do. What would you prefer was done to persons who disagree with your concept of right and wrong?I disagree. The only thing that needs to be increased is moral values, not education.
09-12-2005, 04:04 AM
Now while I'm all for moral values, a person must understand that morals and norms will differ from person to person. Education is necessary because while moral values can be preached to a person, what happens when that person is out of the shadow of the person holding those values over their heads? I know many "moral" people who, after having left the shelter of ultra-strict, puritanical moral values go hog wild because the governor was turned off and everything that was repressed as "bad" or "impure" was allowed to come out. Now would you rather someone know what they're up against and be honestly advised or rather left in the dark to fend for themselves? I know how it can be...because I was one of those people. Have I had sex out of wedlock? Yes. Does that make me any worse of a person or better yet a Christian? No. why? Because I know the odds and I know my moral values and I don't try to press them onto anyone else. You may try to win over someone with your arguments, but remember that not everyone holds the same opinion and many do not take kindly to having morals forced upon them because that only creates more resentment. Remember, Jesus spent just as much time with the sinners as he did with the saints... My $0.02Originally Posted by davisville64
09-12-2005, 06:04 AM
A little 411..... EVERYONE my age knows what birth controll is. They simply choose NOT to use it. EVERYONE my age knows drinking and driving is bad but they CHOOSE to use it. Who has morals that say drinking and driving is ok?
09-12-2005, 06:33 AM
My thoughts exactly.Originally Posted by The Doberman
There was this car with all the traditional Anti-American bumper stickers. But one went way over the line it said: "US Army" and had 2 Nazi Swatzikas next to it. Obviously something she made herself.
Now, hooray for the lady exercising her right to speech - but these types of people are merely trying to make a statement and annoy others. That's all it is. Plenty of Amiercans oppose our president but don't have lunatic crap like that on their cars.
So hooray for me when I threw a full 1 gallon frozen apple bottle (weighed ~10lbs) threw her windshield in the middle of the night. The stickers were off once she got a new windshield.
This was in response to her (a middle aged women, probably early 40s) vandalizing my car months earlier.
she wanted attention and she got it.
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09-12-2005, 07:26 AM
Some of the best writing I've ever heard in a movie. Think about this for a few minutes.Originally Posted by davisville64
"America isn't easy.
America is advanced citizenship.
You've got to want it bad, because it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil who is standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.
You want to claim this land as the 'land of the free'? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest.
Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the 'land of the free.'"
09-12-2005, 07:27 AM
Please. Don't come ot my country. We're tolerant of people's individuality and you just won't fit in. Stay where you are.Originally Posted by davisville64
09-12-2005, 07:35 AM
Little 411, the mind of a teenager is hardwired to do dumb ****.. seriously dumb****, but for the most part, those of us that are parents manage to confinence most of the teenagers of the folly of doing dumb****. There are those that have to learn it the hardway
Originally Posted by davisville64
09-12-2005, 08:08 AM
I'm staying out of most of this.. but I did want to say:
(1) I'm shocked to learn that students in school still stand and say the pledge! I thought that was outlawed since the pledge mentions God. Or do they edit that part out?
(2) The Flag does not represent Democrats or Republicans, it does not represent Bush or Congress... it represents our country and its ideals, not its current politics or the present morality (and/or intelligence level) of it's general populace (thank goodness). Still, I've got little problem with her refusing to stand. I've got more problem with the rubes who, during the anthem, don't bother to stand, keep their hats on, and don't even stop drinking their beer and talking. These are grown ups who aren't 'protesting' anything (no matter how misguided or misplaced) they are just disrespectful.
09-12-2005, 09:28 AM
For one I would like to clarify if she smells like cigarettes she is not a Jehovah's Witness. Two everyone has the right not to say the pledge. Not standing up I agree is disrespectful thats why Jeh. Wit. will stand they just won't say the pledge. They do not say the pledge not because they do not respect the flag or nation but because their allegiance (sp?)/ worship they believe should be given to God alone. If you know any witnesses you know how important it is not to be displaying any form of idolatry and to them the pledge could be considered such. What she did was disrespectful but just because someone doesn't pledge their allegiance to a FLAG absolutely does NOT mean they do not have respect for the flag or what it stands for. We are all lucky to live in a nation to have the right to practice whatever religion we please and to also have the right to not be punished for that so who then are you or I to criticize someone for doing what they believe is right. Remember this and when the situation arises again just turn the other cheek. Whether or not you agree it is her right!
Let me fix my first line from "if she smells like cigarettes" to "if she smokes cigarettes". There is a difference, my bad.
Last edited by max-rot98; 09-12-2005 at 10:29 AM.
09-12-2005, 09:55 AM
I have conflicted feelings about the pledge.
I willingly say it though when I remind myself that I am saluting the concept the USA represents, not the current government. I also leave out the "under God" part because I'm an atheist, and to me that's like saying "under the invisible pink unicorn." So I just say "one nation, indivisible..."
As for her reasons for not saluting, maybe her religion forbids it. Perhaps she's a Jehovah's Witness or something. IIRC, they are not allowed to say any pledges, oaths, or creeds and I think they believe prayer is supposed to be private not public; though I may be wrong about that last part. I do know they do not believe in celebrating any holidays whether religious or otherwise and they do not recognize birthdays.
There could be any number of reasons why she doesn't say the pledge. Perhaps she is disgusted with our current administration and views the pledge as saluting our government rather than our nation. Perhaps she still views it as saluting our nation but refrains from it as a protest against our current administration.
There are a hundred and one valid reasons for her to not salute or say the pledge and what makes the USA great is that she has that right.
EDIT: Whoops. Didn't see the second page of replies. Just noticed the Jehovah's Witness thing was covered already. Anyway, my final point is still valid.
Last edited by Nullifidian; 09-12-2005 at 10:25 AM.
09-12-2005, 02:02 PM
Sounds a little one-sided to me. She lives in a place where she can enjoy the FREEDOM to make this CHOICE.
You, on the other hand, you wish to IMPOSE YOUR BELIEF's on her, and take away her choice. That's something that I don't think America stands for.
Regardless of whether or not YOU feel she is being disrespectful, it is fully in her right. Heck, even if she smokes cigarattes and puts needles in her arms - still doesn't take away any of her rights.
You cannot control the actions of others. You can only control your own reactions and how you react to others.
09-12-2005, 02:05 PM
LOL. You familar with the religious right? That's all they ****ing do is impose their beliefs on others.Originally Posted by Sunder
And, reading some of the comments from this guy it's apparent which line he falls on - extreme!
09-12-2005, 02:14 PM
And the liberal left doesn't?Originally Posted by houseman
Who are the ones undermining voters with judges?
I'm no religious person, hell, I don't even think I believe in God (not as most people know God anyway), but I get damn sick of people claiming that the religious right are the ones who are constantly imposing their values on others, when it is the other way around. Hell, I just recently saw a cross in San Diego being torn down-- a cross that was on church property on a big hill-- because it was "in public" and the ACLU took the church to court, and who did the judge side with? Of course, the ACLU, despite the fact that it was on the churches property! Not long before that, the boy scouts were kicked out of Balboa Park because they are "a religious organization"....wow ACLU, picking on little kids b/c their parents believe in God...talk about a new low!
09-12-2005, 02:22 PM
Religious Fanatasim seems largely to be a republican thing from what I see. I'm sure it exists in Democratics too but the amount of times I see it preached by republicans seems to prevail over those by Dems.Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
Perhaps perception is not reality here.
You bring up an interesting point though. See, I don't impose my non-religious views on others until someone who is into religious gets on me because I do not practice a faith (read: Christian). Perhaps the scenerio that you just described is finally a little pay back for the christian movement demonizing those who are not christian?
09-12-2005, 09:16 PM
No offense to you youngsters, but most people her age usually don't know **** about politics. Most of the time they take stances to be "extreme" or "radical". Hopefully when they get older they'll realize how stupidly they were acting. Just let it go and roll your eyes, because she has the right to disrespect the country that protects her.
09-12-2005, 09:49 PM
The right does tend to migrate to the republicans, thus the pandering, but that's irrelevant. (I'm neither religious nor republican )Originally Posted by houseman
Now, 'payback' is a very stupid term to use. If it wasn't just a poor choice in wording, it sounds like reaching for justification to me. The religious movement has had almost no power for at least a couple decades, so this is nothing new. Its just that now, there seems to be a proactive movement against religion and its getting more attention.
At least you were willing to acknowledge my point
I've still yet to see a christian kick an athiest out of anything, or impose anything on them other than a debate over "moral issues", whereas IMO the actions against christians have been discriminatory (see boyscouts) and a violation of property rights (see church--and those two examples are just a couple I had off of the top of my head). Usually, its christians saying something stupid like "oh, well, sorry deary, you're going to hell....hate to tell you that." or "you can't kill a living person, and as soon as you concieve, that child is alive" or "God made adam and eve, not adam and steve", which can be viewed as a violation of rights, but then again, is "marriage" a right?
Anyway, I guess we can agree to disagree....
09-12-2005, 11:47 PM
Davis, if that offends then you're in for a rude awakening when you enter the real world and work with other people. I disagree with the girls attitude but if you start forcing people to do things then the democracy becomes a dictatorship and you will be the one who is screwed when you disagree with the popular view.
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