girl in my homeroom doesnt stand for pledge
- 09-12-2005, 07:08 AM
I'm staying out of most of this.. but I did want to say:
(1) I'm shocked to learn that students in school still stand and say the pledge! I thought that was outlawed since the pledge mentions God. Or do they edit that part out?
(2) The Flag does not represent Democrats or Republicans, it does not represent Bush or Congress... it represents our country and its ideals, not its current politics or the present morality (and/or intelligence level) of it's general populace (thank goodness). Still, I've got little problem with her refusing to stand. I've got more problem with the rubes who, during the anthem, don't bother to stand, keep their hats on, and don't even stop drinking their beer and talking. These are grown ups who aren't 'protesting' anything (no matter how misguided or misplaced) they are just disrespectful.
- 09-12-2005, 08:28 AM
For one I would like to clarify if she smells like cigarettes she is not a Jehovah's Witness. Two everyone has the right not to say the pledge. Not standing up I agree is disrespectful thats why Jeh. Wit. will stand they just won't say the pledge. They do not say the pledge not because they do not respect the flag or nation but because their allegiance (sp?)/ worship they believe should be given to God alone. If you know any witnesses you know how important it is not to be displaying any form of idolatry and to them the pledge could be considered such. What she did was disrespectful but just because someone doesn't pledge their allegiance to a FLAG absolutely does NOT mean they do not have respect for the flag or what it stands for. We are all lucky to live in a nation to have the right to practice whatever religion we please and to also have the right to not be punished for that so who then are you or I to criticize someone for doing what they believe is right. Remember this and when the situation arises again just turn the other cheek. Whether or not you agree it is her right!
Let me fix my first line from "if she smells like cigarettes" to "if she smokes cigarettes". There is a difference, my bad.
Last edited by max-rot98; 09-12-2005 at 09:29 AM.
- 09-12-2005, 08:55 AM
I have conflicted feelings about the pledge.
I willingly say it though when I remind myself that I am saluting the concept the USA represents, not the current government. I also leave out the "under God" part because I'm an atheist, and to me that's like saying "under the invisible pink unicorn." So I just say "one nation, indivisible..."
As for her reasons for not saluting, maybe her religion forbids it. Perhaps she's a Jehovah's Witness or something. IIRC, they are not allowed to say any pledges, oaths, or creeds and I think they believe prayer is supposed to be private not public; though I may be wrong about that last part. I do know they do not believe in celebrating any holidays whether religious or otherwise and they do not recognize birthdays.
There could be any number of reasons why she doesn't say the pledge. Perhaps she is disgusted with our current administration and views the pledge as saluting our government rather than our nation. Perhaps she still views it as saluting our nation but refrains from it as a protest against our current administration.
There are a hundred and one valid reasons for her to not salute or say the pledge and what makes the USA great is that she has that right.
EDIT: Whoops. Didn't see the second page of replies. Just noticed the Jehovah's Witness thing was covered already. Anyway, my final point is still valid.
Last edited by Nullifidian; 09-12-2005 at 09:25 AM.
09-12-2005, 01:02 PM
Sounds a little one-sided to me. She lives in a place where she can enjoy the FREEDOM to make this CHOICE.
You, on the other hand, you wish to IMPOSE YOUR BELIEF's on her, and take away her choice. That's something that I don't think America stands for.
Regardless of whether or not YOU feel she is being disrespectful, it is fully in her right. Heck, even if she smokes cigarattes and puts needles in her arms - still doesn't take away any of her rights.
You cannot control the actions of others. You can only control your own reactions and how you react to others.
09-12-2005, 01:05 PM
LOL. You familar with the religious right? That's all they ****ing do is impose their beliefs on others.Originally Posted by Sunder
And, reading some of the comments from this guy it's apparent which line he falls on - extreme!
09-12-2005, 01:14 PM
And the liberal left doesn't?Originally Posted by houseman
Who are the ones undermining voters with judges?
I'm no religious person, hell, I don't even think I believe in God (not as most people know God anyway), but I get damn sick of people claiming that the religious right are the ones who are constantly imposing their values on others, when it is the other way around. Hell, I just recently saw a cross in San Diego being torn down-- a cross that was on church property on a big hill-- because it was "in public" and the ACLU took the church to court, and who did the judge side with? Of course, the ACLU, despite the fact that it was on the churches property! Not long before that, the boy scouts were kicked out of Balboa Park because they are "a religious organization"....wow ACLU, picking on little kids b/c their parents believe in God...talk about a new low!
09-12-2005, 01:22 PM
Religious Fanatasim seems largely to be a republican thing from what I see. I'm sure it exists in Democratics too but the amount of times I see it preached by republicans seems to prevail over those by Dems.Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
Perhaps perception is not reality here.
You bring up an interesting point though. See, I don't impose my non-religious views on others until someone who is into religious gets on me because I do not practice a faith (read: Christian). Perhaps the scenerio that you just described is finally a little pay back for the christian movement demonizing those who are not christian?
09-12-2005, 08:16 PM
No offense to you youngsters, but most people her age usually don't know **** about politics. Most of the time they take stances to be "extreme" or "radical". Hopefully when they get older they'll realize how stupidly they were acting. Just let it go and roll your eyes, because she has the right to disrespect the country that protects her.
09-12-2005, 08:49 PM
The right does tend to migrate to the republicans, thus the pandering, but that's irrelevant. (I'm neither religious nor republican )Originally Posted by houseman
Now, 'payback' is a very stupid term to use. If it wasn't just a poor choice in wording, it sounds like reaching for justification to me. The religious movement has had almost no power for at least a couple decades, so this is nothing new. Its just that now, there seems to be a proactive movement against religion and its getting more attention.
At least you were willing to acknowledge my point
I've still yet to see a christian kick an athiest out of anything, or impose anything on them other than a debate over "moral issues", whereas IMO the actions against christians have been discriminatory (see boyscouts) and a violation of property rights (see church--and those two examples are just a couple I had off of the top of my head). Usually, its christians saying something stupid like "oh, well, sorry deary, you're going to hell....hate to tell you that." or "you can't kill a living person, and as soon as you concieve, that child is alive" or "God made adam and eve, not adam and steve", which can be viewed as a violation of rights, but then again, is "marriage" a right?
Anyway, I guess we can agree to disagree....
09-12-2005, 10:47 PM
Davis, if that offends then you're in for a rude awakening when you enter the real world and work with other people. I disagree with the girls attitude but if you start forcing people to do things then the democracy becomes a dictatorship and you will be the one who is screwed when you disagree with the popular view.
09-12-2005, 10:55 PM
Yeah, you've kind have to learn to just deal with it later on in life...
09-13-2005, 05:41 AM
I guess you haven't followed the last two Presidential elections.Originally Posted by davisville64
09-13-2005, 06:05 AM
Just a quick quip... if she gets caught putting needles in her arm... alot of her rights will be taken away.Originally Posted by Sunder
09-14-2005, 01:40 AM
sure she has the right to stand but if she chooses to actually use that right then why doesn't she do something about it and not just sit there and disrespect all those who died for this coutnry to be as great as it is?
saluting the flag/pledge is about respect/honoring America/americans... if you don't agree with how america is being run currently, DO SOMETHING OR GET THE **** OUT. You are just there b/c you can make a living for your family? taking advantage of our great coutnry, get the **** out, we dont need you
you want to leave but cant afford it? you are most likely ignorant and that is why you choose to disrespect stuff on the limited knowledge you have
there was a time when the flag actually meant something (still does). Do you remember that people in wars would risk their lives just to carry the flag on the battle field?!?!?!?! they are basically spitting in the true American's faces
09-14-2005, 05:18 AM
09-14-2005, 05:41 AM
I just love how some of you people will be the first to bitch about freedom of speech which included freedom of expression but get pissed off when one chooses to exercise that right in a way that's not inline with your own thinking.
09-14-2005, 06:34 AM
No attitudes like this is what we don't need.. remember the founding fathers were a bunch of dissenters also who thought it wasn't cool to to "march to the beat" of King George's drum. Gentlemen it takes all types to make this a strong countryOriginally Posted by BULK_CITY
09-14-2005, 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by houseman
Originally Posted by matthewd
09-14-2005, 09:22 AM
Yup. This must be some kind of powerful girl that can have such a great effect on you. Do you think she stays up late at night and wonders/complains to other people about you?Originally Posted by Iron Warrior
I agree 100% that what she is doing is disrespectful, and I do feel it is a shame that people don't respect their own country as much as they did in the "olden days". But IT DOESN'T MATTER. I also agree 100% that it is within her right to do this. And guess what, when you leave your little high school, you'd better learn how to tolerate other people better or else you're going to end up a bitter person. Do you really not have anything better to worry about than wasting so much of your energy on this chick?
Exactly. I may not agree with what other people say or do - but I'll be damned if I let some little highschool kid try to tell me how to run my life.Originally Posted by houseman
And it runs both ways: if you don't like it - YOU can leave the country, because you obviously have a problem with one of their beliefs in people's rights.
And don't come here to Canada. Guess what? It will be worse for you here. Heck, they tried to change the name of "Christmas Tree" to "Holiday Tree" in order to stop oppressing all those people who don't beleive in Christmas. You have to wear a helmet on a motorcycle here, unless you're a specific religious belief that has a tourban on your head.
Want to know what pisses me off? Weapons are NOT ALLOWED in schools. Yet, some kid in Ontario successfully won his case in court to allow him to carry a 12" "ceramonial dagger" to school on the grounds of religious discrimination.
I'll trade you the kid that is allowed to carry a knife to school for this chick who doesn't stand up for the flag anyday.
09-14-2005, 08:41 PM
LOL I think people need to man up! Who cares what a 17 year old girl thinks. I really like the post about how she should leave if she don't like it. Correct me if I'm wrong but last time I checked 17 is not an adult so really she can't legally leave even if she wants to.
09-14-2005, 10:47 PM
Hey guy I think your problem got solved in part today. A
federal judged ruled the pledge of allegiance "unconstitutional"
today since the inclusion of "under God" violated a person's
right to religious freedom. He put a restraining order on all schools.
Teachers cannot lead the class in the allegiance. A
person may recite it privately but not in a public forum as to
restrict another person's religious beliefs.
All over 2 words. Remember that "under God" was added into the
pledge in 1954, I think, by Congressional act & was not part of the
original pledge. I bet you eventually see it removed permanently
in the future.
09-15-2005, 07:14 AM
Why is it that so many Christians have so much difficulty understanding why creationism is such a HUGE violation of freedom of religion?Originally Posted by shootmeagain
Evolution is a current valid scientific theory . Creationism is not and never will be. Additionally, Creationism is a Judeo-Christian concept. If an official government agency, such as a public school, were to teach it, that means that is a government institution favoring one religion over another. That is EXPRESSLY forbidden in the Constitution. Evolution on the otherhand is NOT a part of any religion. It is not founded on religion nor does it take religion into account at all. Thus teaching it favors no religion over any other.
09-15-2005, 07:57 AM
Creationism is not a science. It's not a theory. It's a belief. Evolution is a theory because it explains, predicts, and interprets. Creationism does none of these. And I believe Null's point was if you were to teach creationism in the schools, whose version do you teach? Christian, Hindu, Pagan, Roman Catholic, etc. All these are acceptable forms of religion yet you cannot teach just one of them without showing bias. There are young earth creationists (universe is 6000 years old) and there are evolution creationists saying that god started it all with the snap of his finger but then evolution took over. It's the fanatics on either side that are screwing this whole debate up. There are more than a few brilliant scientists that are faithful to their religion yet accept evolution. This shows no conflict of interest IMO. However, science is to be taught as such, science. Not religion. Separation of church and state is a great thing.
09-15-2005, 09:00 AM
he's smart for a big fella ain't he
09-15-2005, 09:02 AM
For a big guy....... I guessOriginally Posted by glenihan
10-18-2005, 01:59 PM
The girl who wouldnt stand droped out of school last week
10-18-2005, 02:11 PM
SHOOT HER WITH A NAILGUN!!!
10-18-2005, 02:27 PM
Good for her. Now it's time to get knocked up and live off of the government for the rest of her life.Originally Posted by davisville64
10-18-2005, 02:29 PM
10-18-2005, 04:09 PM
I wanted to say that but im on thin ice right now as of getting banned. I know what you mean, she disses the country and doesnt stand for the flag, but now shes going to collect from it.Originally Posted by natedogg
10-18-2005, 07:32 PM
Then again she might not.. no one can predict the future..
10-18-2005, 07:35 PM
maybe she joined the military and decided to serve our country.
lol i'm just being a pain in the ass now.
10-19-2005, 12:31 AM
thats just too great...lololOriginally Posted by davisville64
10-19-2005, 02:59 PM
Being new to the Board i just read this, I don't think she is anti american, but your right who knows, perhaps being big and being in high school she is embarrassed and doesn't want to stand, I assume kids are unkind to her, she most likely wants to disapear and not draw ANY attention to herself, although this does she is young as you are.Originally Posted by davisville64
She may have a MEDICAL ISSUE that makes it hard for her to lose weight, don't judge till you know BOTH sides.
10-19-2005, 03:03 PM
Huh?Originally Posted by Mrs. Gimpy!
You think it's great someone dropped out of school?
10-19-2005, 03:50 PM
I'm not sure that is what she meant but it was pretty poorly written regardless.Originally Posted by houseman
It is her right not to pledge allegiance. Its a socialist pledge and our country was founded on the ideas that not everyone has to be the same. It is her right to drop out and yes, her right to get free money.
However very, very few people actually like being on welfare. Its a symbol that you're **** (for a lack of better phrasing) and suck at life. Many people who live below the poverty line don't get welfare for this reason. Also, its not just get free money and do nothing. There's a lot more restrictions to how you can get that money. If you don't shape up, no money for you. Statistics I believe show that its about 1% at most of people who don't work and receive welfare (disabilities excluded).
Odds are this girl has 0 self esteem and the prick who threw the pen cap at her was just a confirmation of what she thought. That she's worthless and not fit for academics. She will probably kill herself, abuse drugs/sex in a few weeks. Even the whole anti-US thing is just people with low self esteem who want to project. No different than a promiscuous girl who gets around because she's hiding the fact that she feels she's worth nothing.
10-19-2005, 04:01 PM
id tell that bitch a peice of my mind. THis country is going straight to hell with all the **** people are trying to pull today. It makes me sick seeing people with no respect for a flag that still makes me shiver with pride everytime is ee it.
10-19-2005, 04:03 PM
agreed it was poorly written!Originally Posted by The Experiment
10-19-2005, 05:18 PM
She has that right not to take part in the National Anthem. This is America and we have those kinds of rights. This is not Nazi Germany. I have relatives that don't take part in the national anthem because of religious reason and they pay their taxes, they are the first to help a stranger, and they are the perfect citizen. As an American we have so many rights and choices we can make and that what make this a great country. Some of the choices that people make may not appeal to you but that's life. I don't like reading about the Klu Klux Klan/Neo Nazis marching because of what they stand for but they have that right because that's one of the rights the constitution gave them.
Yes, your friend should have been thrown in detention or even kick out of school because NO one has the right to place harm towards another person. So, if your friend had beaten or rape or even killed her because she made a personal choice...IN YOUR MIND YOU WOULD HAD SAID SHE DESERVE IT. Did you know in some countries in the world, these acts are committed towards people that don't think, act, or worship like the majority? I notice your age and all I have to say is>>>You have a lot to learn about life and this little incident regarding other people rights, should had been taught to you at an EARLY age by your parents and also have been touch on by the school system.
YOU AND YOUR FRIEND BEHAVIOR SICKEN ME and before you start talking about the U.S and the National Anthem, maybe you should study the constitution. I thought all grade school and high school student have to pass the constitution test before graduating from High School?????????
I attend a lot of sports events and I don't stand all the time when they sing the National Anthem and that's my right. WHAT, you and your friends would had thrown a pen cap at me?????
Wow, I just had a flash back. I just remember what I did to a guy who threw a pen at me in high school. Let me put it this way, I kicked his mofo ass and he was bigger and older than me. Ahhh, those was the days.
Originally Posted by davisville64
10-19-2005, 07:07 PM
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