Pizza Delivery and the ACLU

[AgnosticFront]

http://www.aclu.org/pizza/

check this out.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

the ACLU is very strange to me. They are an ultra liberal group yet they banter on 'freedom' and less government to attack conservatives (namely Bush). They fight for the rights of convicted terrorists to try and make Bush's life harder. They claim to support minority interests yet fight for the rights of Neo-Nazis to march in Jewish neighborhoods.

 

[AgnosticFront]

not to make bush's life harder. dude they have been doin that stuff way before bush... they are the civil liberties union! its not strange. they are fighting for civil liberties.

the ACLU is very strange to me. They are an ultra liberal group yet they banter on 'freedom' and less government to attack conservatives (namely Bush). They fight for the rights of convicted terrorists to try and make Bush's life harder. They claim to support minority interests yet fight for the rights of Neo-Nazis to march in Jewish neighborhoods.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

there is a lot of spite toward Bush. If Kerry were president I don't think the ACLU would be fighting as hard for the rights of detained terrorists. Just my opinion

 

[AgnosticFront]

there is a lot of spite toward Bush. If Kerry were president I don't think the ACLU would be fighting as hard for the rights of detained terrorists. Just my opinion

point taken... but you havn't said anything about the link i posted...

 

[CEDeoudes59]

i personally don't believe it. If the media is a reliable watchdog on the government it would be all over mainstream news. I don't believe the ACLU is a reliable source of... well anything.
The website is setup to scare people and induce paranoia. Certainly if people become scared that the government is delivering pizza to them, the ACLU will see donations.

perhaps I'm just an American Idiot and a drone for the Republican party but I don't believe it. It's really hard to know what believe today. You can't know unless you are physically there or directly involved. All I know is: the government that governs best, governs least. that's just me though... :wave:

 

[kwyckemynd00]

That link "really" hits home, but what I find funny is that those people whom the ACLU support are more likely to implement these types of big gov't, "progressive" systems. :rofl: Oh well, its all about an agenda.

But, despite the irony of the link, it really is dead on and scary. I see that day coming

 

[CEDeoudes59]

But, despite the irony of the link, it really is dead on and scary. I see that day coming

I do too, we probably won't be around then. I only pray that the roots of America won't be banned from the liberal textbooks. If we become a nation of intellectuals we will be eaten alive. While I have marginal faith in our government (shhhh.. don't tell McCain that), I have faith in Americans. We will set things straight and resist the communists. The first step is slamming the border shut. SLAMMING.

wow that just got off-topic.

 

[AgnosticFront]

WHAT COMMUNISTS?? LOL

 

[Iron Warrior]

I just wanna know where the **** they were when we needed our freedom to save 1-Test and 4-AD :frustrate . They just "save" what's in their best interest like many other organizations. The only way they can make headlines is by doing outrageous crap which I hope leads Americans to see how little credibility they have. A real ACLU would not protect terrorists, a real ACLU would be shutting down the borders for the interests of Americans, a real ACLU would be much different :rant:

 

[CEDeoudes59]

AACLU
Anti American Civil Liberties CommUnionists

and exactly, they selectively protect freedoms of those that may benefit them.

 

[Matthew D]

I honestly think that a few of you might want to do some more reading
http://www.aclu.org/

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I honestly think that a few of you might want to do some more reading
http://www.aclu.org/

I wasn't gonna jump in on this one b/c ... well, i try to avoid arguing about politics (although I'll keep my reading up) when it's not an election year

But, when it comes to the ACLU, you pretty much don't "need" to read anything because their actions say enough, IMHO.

 

[AgnosticFront]

You guys are funny with your communist fear thing going on. I thought that was a thing that finally died in the 80's :lol:
Seriously, the cold war is over. There is no communist conspiracy :cheers:

Communism has never been more then an idea for people. Communism doesn't work for people. It may work for certain bugs and fungi... but not for people. It wont ever work for people unless evolution dissolves our ego's sometime in the next several hundred years.


Come on... be real... COMMUNISTS? :blink: That’s like saying the Martians are coming... Communists aren’t real. Any power ever claiming to be communist was pulling wool over your eyes.

Communism is a term that can refer to one of several things: a social and economic system, an ideology which supports that system, or a political movement that wishes to implement that system.

As a social and economic system, communism would be a type of egalitarian society with no state, no privately owned means of production, and no social classes. All property is owned cooperatively and collectively, by the community as a whole, and all people have equal social and economic status and rights. Human need or advancement is not left unsatisfied because of poverty, and is rather solved through distribution of resources as needed. This is thus often the system proposed to solve the problem of the capitalist poverty cycle.

There is no leader in communism thus in a sense it’s a synonym for anarchy

anarchy

(Greek: an, without; archo, rule) A social theory which maintains that the restraint of law is an invasion of the right of a free, intelligent being, that the individual has the right to unlimited self-expression, and that the self-interest of the individual, if intelligently pursued, will best lead to the promotion of the general welfare. The origin of the theory is variously attributed to Diderot (1713-84), the Hebertistes of the French Revolution, and to Proudhon (1809-65). In method some anarchists are evolutionary, believing in the advent of anarchism through propaganda and the use of the ballot. Others are revolutionary and propose to establish anarchism by violence. Nihilists, who believe in the assassination of rulers and other violent acts of opposition to the existing forms of society, represent the radical extreme of revolutionary anarchists. Anarchism is founded on an unwarranted optimism regarding the goodness of unrestrained human nature.

The reason communism has never been established is because someone would have to be pure with no ego, rise to a status of power, create a revolution, establish communism... then disappear into the shadows as just another member of society. That is why it would take a pure soul... who else could just give up their power?

Then once it's established (which it never has been) all the people have to exist without ego as well. ALL THE PEOPLE; because a few greedy people could destroy the system.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

we are headed toward socialism because neither party addresses the border.

 

[CDB]

I honestly think that a few of you might want to do some more reading
http://www.aclu.org/

Some things they do make sense, many others don't. It's because their idea of rights is more accurately defined as entitlements. They take a very activist view of the court system, which a lot of people including a shitload of constitutional scholars disagree with. A lot of their moves are seen as attempts to legislate through a courtroom what people aren't willing to legislate through their representatives.

And the original link is a joke. I've seen it on three other sites in completely different contexts over the last year or so. I guess this is how these guys decided to sell it.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Agnositc, man...you just likened Communism to Anarchy???? Then you said that there was no leader in Communism and quickly followed that by saying in order for Communism to work, someone without a big ego would have to rise to power? <-- :think:

I'm beginning to think you don't know much about communism, my friend

Anyway, communism still does exist, therefore so do communists. There "is" a communist part even here in the US. Socialism is basically just watered down communism and the problem with that is that the gov't in those socialism situations can attain so much power they can turn communist if they would like. Or not...i.e. Britain and the Netherlands after realizing socialism wasn't working (they converted to a less socialism market economy). So, the threat is still there.

Me, personally, I'm not worried about true-form communism. You're right in that sense. Its not going to happen. The only reason its not going to happen is because it doesn't work, not because there aren't crazy people who would love to impliment that type of government....there are! But, socialism on the other hand is being implimented via crazy judges and groups like the ACLU, despite the will of the voter. They just said "f*ck the majority, you're idiots, we know whats best for you and know what you want and we'll do what we want to make it happen while you're all busy holding a job and I'm living off of your tax dollars."

But, I believe the topic was the Pizza Delivery animation

 

[kwyckemynd00]

we are headed toward socialism because neither party addresses the border.

I see it a bit different.

Neither party will close the boarder because we're headed toward socialism and the more state-dependent citizens (yes, they're citizens according to many, just "undocumented" ones ) that exist the more socialist policies they can implement.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

I see it a bit different.

Neither party will close the boarder because we're headed toward socialism and the more state-dependent citizens (yes, they're citizens according to many, just "undocumented" ones ) that exist the more socialist policies they can implement.

ahh i see, the tail wags the dog.
what a world we live in.
Still the greatest place in the world

HaPPY July 4th!!! :cheers: (no drinking on cycle though)

 

[AgnosticFront]

Agnositc, man...you just likened Communism to Anarchy???? Then you said that there was no leader in Communism and quickly followed that by saying in order for Communism to work, someone without a big ego would have to rise to power? <-- :think:

I'm beginning to think you don't know much about communism, my friend

Anyway, communism still does exist, therefore so do communists. There "is" a communist part even here in the US. Socialism is basically just watered down communism and the problem with that is that the gov't in those socialism situations can attain so much power they can turn communist if they would like. Or not...i.e. Britain and the Netherlands after realizing socialism wasn't working (they converted to a less socialism market economy). So, the threat is still there.

Me, personally, I'm not worried about true-form communism. You're right in that sense. Its not going to happen. The only reason its not going to happen is because it doesn't work, not because there aren't crazy people who would love to impliment that type of government....there are! But, socialism on the other hand is being implimented via crazy judges and groups like the ACLU, despite the will of the voter. They just said "f*ck the majority, you're idiots, we know whats best for you and know what you want and we'll do what we want to make it happen while you're all busy holding a job and I'm living off of your tax dollars."

But, I believe the topic was the Pizza Delivery animation

Yes, Communism is supposed to exist without a leader. I was not talking about the chaos form of anarchy.. It can be a synonym for the form of anarchy which states "and that the self-interest of the individual, if intelligently pursued, will best lead to the promotion of the general welfare." The belief that we could be so good that we wouldnt need rules and everything would work together and all people will work together for the good of humanity and the earth.

I didn't say someone with out a big ego. I said someone with NO EGO. This is where it first all falls apart. You know anything about Che Guevara? See the only way someone could give up absolute power is if they had no ego and they believed that is was the best thing for the society.

How can you tell me communism still exists? When did communism ever exist? Socialism exists... Fascism exists and often is mistaken for communism... Although in truth they are completly different...

 

[kwyckemynd00]

That's basically what I said earlier. True communism was never really a reality and it just doesn't work and things like socialism are just watered down communism with the potential to "worsen".

And, still, anarchy and communism have nothing in common. You described anarchy well when you said that its possible we could be so efficient at what we do that we wouldn't need to be governed but the very heart of communism is the government controlling EVERYTHING. So, their really polar opposites, IMHO.

I don't know anything about Che Guevara...may have to do a quick search

I don't think its possible for a human in power not to corrupt. I tend to agree with Lord Acton...."Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely."

 

[AgnosticFront]

communism is the government controlling EVERYTHING

Dude are you pickin up what im puttin down? Apparently Not. True communism has nothing to do with control. It is a hypothetical state in which everybody just decides to work for the common good of humanity. everyone doing their part for the whole. No greed No poverty No war. - Only creation. A BEAUTIFUL thing. too bad it wont work because THERE IS greed and ego and powerstruggles. Like I said, It works for some species of bugs and Fungi; Not for humans.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

have you read the communist manifesto? Marx intended for the burgeious group to have their wealth "taken" and "give" power to the proletariat. There was nothing voluntary about it, bro.

I do agree with you, however, that humans are incapable of what you're describing (and what I would call a utopia, not freggin' communism...)

Read the communist Manifesto... Marx WAS ANYTHING BUT an ideological man. He was a cold, hard, realist.

I now officially declare that you need to actually educate yourself on exactly what communism is

edit: Just as a side note, I actually really like Marx he's a wonderfully entertaining character

 

[CEDeoudes59]

handing over nearly all your money, property and freedom to government for the good of the state is communism. It is sold to the masses as being the 'unselfish' thing to do. Like you said, we are humans, we aren't smurfs (well not I ).

Smurfs deem Marxism a brilliant idea. I never undersood how giving up your money, property and freedom makes everything better.

The American Dream of having a successful (wealthy) family is not a selfish dream - no matter what the liberals tell you.

my 2cents.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

i don't think we are disagreement here anyway.
but the government is made up of people. people like you and I. People with their own self interests and selfish ambitions. Giving a handful of people the power and trust to run the state is asking for trouble. True Socialism is defined as all means of production is controlled by the government (aka the people in charge).
correct me if i am off...

 

[AgnosticFront]

have you read the communist manifesto? Marx intended for the burgeious group to have their wealth "taken" and "give" power to the proletariat. There was nothing voluntary about it, bro.

I do agree with you, however, that humans are incapable of what you're describing (and what I would call a utopia, not freggin' communism...)

Read the communist Manifesto... Marx WAS ANYTHING BUT an ideological man. He was a cold, hard, realist.

I now officially declare that you need to actually educate yourself on exactly what communism is

edit: Just as a side note, I actually really like Marx he's a wonderfully entertaining character

Marxism is not the same as communism.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Socialism isn't really EVERYTHING gov't controlled, but it can ride a fine line.

In a situation where there is a small homogenous and stable population and unselfish leaders, democratic socialism could really flourish. But, in an integrated world with screwed up population ("groups" constantly fighting against each other) it just ain't happening.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Marxism is not the same as communism.

You have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Karl Marx wrote the communism manifesto...he "is" communism.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

google it: http://www.google.com/search?q=karl+marx+communism&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

 

[AgnosticFront]

I know what I’m talking about. and yes I am talking about a Utopia that is the idea that communism is based on. You think Marx is the first person to think of it? Its an idea. all Marx did is skew it. It has been attempted many many times. Certain Tribal peoples actually have done quite well with it. Marx created a fascist state and he disguised it as communism THATS ALL. Now because of him people are all afraid of an idea! it's actually funny.

 

[AgnosticFront]

BTW im really enjoying this conversation :thumbsup:

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I'm done here...you're trying to fix statements you made previously with each additional post.

Marx defines modern communism, really. He basically brought communism to life. His revolutionary works are what we know as communism...People do not associate lost ideological utopian ideals with communism. Besides, the utopia you describe could easily be attained in a market economy, not just communism.

If indeed you do know your stuff, I would suggest being more specific with your posts so that your point / argument is more clear. Because, you can always expand communism as a "class"...right now, it just sounds as if you're playing with words.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

BTW im really enjoying this conversation :thumbsup:

haha, good eal :thumbsup:

 

[AgnosticFront]

if it looks like fascism and it smells like fascism... why call it communism?

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Marxism is not the same as communism.

? :blink: ?

 

[Brooklyn]

Just as a side note, I actually really like Marx he's a wonderfully entertaining character

Groucho, Harpo, Chico or Zeppo? Groucho is my favorite Marx.

Marx created a fascist state and he disguised it as communism THATS ALL.

That depends on your concept of what a "fascist" state is, beyond a basic definition. For example, Nazi Germany was a socialist state, yet the socialism of Hitler is completely different from that of Marx. The Germans despised the communists. Germany's socialism was based on patriotic love for the homeland. Germany's government believed that feeding and taking care of the people would make them love their country and be loyal. Russian Marxism believes that if you starve the people and make them fear you, they will be forced to be loyal. Two completely opposing ideals. Therefore using "communism" or "Marxism" is preferable since it more clearly represents the ideals which Russia attempted to implement.

But, socialism on the other hand is being implimented via crazy judges and groups like the ACLU, despite the will of the voter. They just said "f*ck the majority, you're idiots, we know whats best for you and know what you want and we'll do what we want to make it happen while you're all busy holding a job and I'm living off of your tax dollars."

That's silly. Crazy judges are those who think it is acceptable for the government to take your land to put up Wal Marts ala "eminent domain." The ACLU does not do such things. The voter, though politically incorrect to admit it, is often not very educated and more often absent on Election Day, and so in the interest of both intelligence and erring on the side of caution, it is better to preserve civil liberties and avoid dictatorial control over personal freedom. As for "living off your tax dollars," I am relatively certain that anyone who might end up losing their job for any reason would prefer to have unemployment compensation as opposed to the gutter. Is the system biased? Of course, and corrupt to boot. Does that mean that social services are unnecessary? No, because even if you never need them, you can be sure that someone you know will. A safety net for those down on their luck helps to preserve our economy in the long run, as it helps that person to find another way to become a productive member of society, rather than having to resort to crime and becoming destitute.

If you want to see an example of what communism in the U.S. is like, I've previously stated that you should focus your attention on the sad career of one Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

As for the pizza animation, all this is possible and if certain lawmakers have their way, both Republican and Democrat, we would be living in such an "information age." All it takes is going a step further than the information credit companies already keep on record and routinely supply to third parties.

 

[AgnosticFront]

People do not associate lost ideological utopian ideals with communism.

See... You are talking about it as a physical tangible political structure based on the ideas of Americans about the Russians. I am unconcerned with what people associate... they have been conditioned by propaganda. I am talking about it from a philosophical standpoint. We agree on pretty much all the substance. They only thing we are really arguing about are definitions.

you're trying to fix statements you made previously with each additional post

That’s simply not true. I'm not trying to "fix" anything - nothing needs to be fixed. I was merely explaining my obviously much different perspective to you. I don't like to be held down by the view of what people believe something is. I don’t care what people believe something is. I only care about its essence, its truth. People can believe whatever they want. In the words of Adolph Hitler, "What luck for rulers that men do not think."

 

[AgnosticFront]

"No country has ever had a communist system of government. The countries that we call "Communist" are countries where the dominant political party was the Communist Party. Communist Parties are generally political parties who have working towards achieving "communism" as part of their party platform.The difference between working towards communism and "communism" itself is like the difference between building a house and living in a house. The Soviet Union, for example, never claimed to have achieved communism. In theory, what was taking place in the Soviet Union was an attempt to do the work needed to construct a communist society. Just as building a house is hard work, that has to be done in order to have a house to live in, the Stalinist system of the Soviet Union was seen as the hard work that was being done by everyone to build a communist system. It was never seen by any of the Communists as "communism" itself, any more than a construction foreman would think that the act of building a home is the same as lounging on the couch inside a home. In truth, most Communists today recognize that the Soviet Union was mostly just a large, corrupt, top down bureaucracy that didn't represent the ideals of Marxism or Communism."

 

[AgnosticFront]

"So, contrary to all the popular misconception, "Communism" itself is not about the dominance of the State, in fact it is the opposite; Communism is ultimately about the abolition of the State."

 

[kwyckemynd00]

See... You are talking about it as a physical tangible political structure based on the ideas of Americans about the Russians.

No, I'm speaking of it as it existed...how it is now defined.

I am unconcerned with what people associate... they have been conditioned by propaganda.

That's quite alright, but I'm not a victim of propaganda...I was at the age of 12 conditioned, but now I do my own thinking.

I am talking about it from a philosophical standpoint. We agree on pretty much all the substance. They only thing we are really arguing about are definitions...

Yeah, very true...I just wish that you would have clarified beforehand because the only tangible references we have to communism spurred from Marxism, and relating communism to a philosophical utopia that a few tribes here and there implemented is quite misleading

 

[AgnosticFront]

"Silence is argument carried out by other means."

Ernesto Che Guevara