Impeach Gov. Andrew Cuomo 4 violating New Yorker's 2nd Amendment

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    anybodies god, jeffersons included. jefferson being a polytheist was all inclusive can leave anybody out
    Glad you brought that up, as Jefferson also advocated for the separation of religion and government. Your turn...


  2. It's not like the criminals will follow the law how ignorant are these politicians.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post

    So something that you admit to having little knowledge of, in your own estimation does not apply to the argument. Awesome logic there.
    Let's not go to extremes here, I know it is your bread and butter, but do not equate "little knowledge" to mean "no knowledge."

  4. Gun control laws are only gonna keep certain guns away from law abiding citizens. Criminals do not care about the previous laws that we had let alone the new gun laws. If a criminal wants a gun they will get any gun they want. Sure if they get caught it will be worse for them but has that ever stopped a criminal from committing a crime before?

  5. its also important to mention that the constitution uses the term "creator", which is a reference to a diety, jefferson uses the words god, lord, savior, and almighty in his letters and essays.
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
    I'm usually crying when people take naked pictures of me. Fcuking childhood.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Glad you brought that up, as Jefferson also advocated for the separation of religion and government. Your turn...
    lol my turn? is this a game of chess or go-fish?

    he did advocate it but jefferson was also intellegent enough to admit that all laws and morals are based in religion, thats why the original laws of this country were based on the teachings of religous text, ie the Ten commandments specificallly.

    also when jefferson called for the seperation of church and state, (not religion and state i might add) he was against a national/official religion or church being established, he was also against any church or religous organization being the legislative or ruling authority for the country.
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
    I'm usually crying when people take naked pictures of me. Fcuking childhood.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    its also important to mention that the constitution uses the term "creator", which is a reference to a diety, jefferson uses the words god, lord, savior, and almighty in his letters and essays.
    Subjective as it also makes no mention of god. My mother created me.

  8. Wow... what a cluster **** of a thread now.

    God given, whose god, all god, your god, I have no god.

    Glad we could stay on topic.

    /unsubbed
    The Historic PES Legend

  9. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Wow... what a cluster **** of a thread now.

    God given, whose god, all god, your god, I have no god.

    Glad we could stay on topic.

    /unsubbed
    You didn't see me bringing it up...

  10. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Wow... what a cluster **** of a thread now.

    God given, whose god, all god, your god, I have no god.

    Glad we could stay on topic.

    /unsubbed
    This happens a lot in these threads.

    Generally when someone makes a valid argument SP begins to argue semantics to avoid addressing a point he doesn't have a practiced response for.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Subjective as it also makes no mention of god. My mother created me.
    biology lesson...your mother AND father created you. even if your mother was a hermaphrodite its still physiologically impossible for a human to reproduce autonomously.

    so either your not human or you have a momma and a daddy.

    not to get petty though.

    and yes creator is subjective as to who a creator is, but it certainly isnt the governtment, which is the point the comment/reference was making. so even if you refer to you mother as the subjective creator, she is the one that has endowed those rights upon you, not the government.

    i couldnt help but notice you chose to ignore the fact that jefferson made numerous specific reference to a diety or higher power in his letters.
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
    I'm usually crying when people take naked pictures of me. Fcuking childhood.

  12. your turn...lol
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
    I'm usually crying when people take naked pictures of me. Fcuking childhood.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post

    God given....who's god? :/
    You brought it up right here.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    biology lesson...your mother AND father created you. even if your mother was a hermaphrodite its still physiologically impossible for a human to reproduce autonomously.

    so either your not human or you have a momma and a daddy.

    not to get petty though.

    and yes creator is subjective as to who a creator is, but it certainly isnt the governtment, which is what it was making. so even if you refer to you mother as the subjective creator, she is the one that has endowed those rights upon you, not the government.

    i couldnt help but notice you chose to ignore the fact that jefferson made numerous specific reference to a diety or higher power in his letters.
    Awesome captain "literal." I didn't ignore anything. When you examine Jefferson's writing in its entirely, he is detailing his personal belief system, at no point does he inject his personal beliefs into the discussion when describing the role of government, as Jefferson indicated in his own words - "wall of separation between church and state."

  15. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    You brought it up right here.
    In response to your statement..."godgiven right." Jesus man...seriously.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post

    In response to your statement..."godgiven right." Jesus man...seriously.
    Nice reading comprehension.

    I have not said that once.

    Also, it is his view that the right is God given, as he believes in God, is he not allowed to express his views because you don't believe in God?

    You brought this God argument up over someone else's word choice and then attempted to say you didn't bring it up.

    At this point I am positive that you are a troll, you never bring anything to the discussion. When other posters make a point in opposition to your views you refuse to acknowledge their views and begin to argue over semantics in an effort to show your percieved intellectual superiority.

    Make an argument about the topic at hand or don't reply.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Nice reading comprehension.

    I have not said that once.

    Also, it is his view that the right is God given, as he believes in God, is he not allowed to express his views because you don't believe in God?

    You brought this God argument up over someone else's word choice and then attempted to say you didn't bring it up.

    At this point I am positive that you are a troll, you never bring anything to the discussion. When other posters make a point in opposition to your views you refuse to acknowledge their views and begin to argue over semantics in an effort to show your percieved intellectual superiority.

    Make an argument about the topic at hand or don't reply.

    The subject was brought up by Manotaur (my mistake not you), with his response..."ive tried pointing out that the 2nd ammendment right is a godgiven right." Which means he invited it into the discussion, I simply responded. You can insult me, I don't mind. I lol @ most of that stuff considering who's making the argument.

    Just for clarification, you say I bring nothing to the discussion, yet I offered Thomas Jefferson's own words, and some of you offer nothing more than broad, simplistic interpretations based on opinion. And I'm the one who doesn't offer anything of substance to the discussion? Comedy.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post

    The subject was brought up by Manotaur (my mistake not you), with his response..."ive tried pointing out that the 2nd ammendment right is a godgiven right." Which means he brought it into the discussion, I simply responded.
    You responded over semantics.

    We get it, you don't believe in God. Good for you.

    His point had nothing to do with God and the words "God given" can be interchanged with 'unalienable" if you prefer.

    If you have an argument to make about the points at hand then make it. If not, go troll elsewhere.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Awesome captain "literal." I didn't ignore anything. When you examine Jefferson's writing in its entirely, he is detailing his personal belief system, at no point does he inject his personal beliefs into the discussion when describing the role of government, as Jefferson indicated in his own words - "wall of separation between church and state."
    that still doesnt contest or resolve the creator issue, i simply used your example of your mother being your creator. by that logic, your mother is your source of rights, not the government. So no matter how you interpret creator, the end result is the same. rights dont come from the government. so if they dont come from the government, they cant take them away.

    and there is a "wall of seperation of church and state", just because the laws of the land and the teachings of religous texts have common themes doesnt mean that a religion or church is the governing body

    ...your turn
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
    I'm usually crying when people take naked pictures of me. Fcuking childhood.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    You responded over semantics.

    We get it, you don't believe in God. Good for you.

    His point had nothing to do with God and the words "God given" can be interchanged with 'unalienable" if you prefer.

    If you have an argument to make about the points at hand then make it. If not, go troll elsewhere.
    [email protected] me I'm arguing over semantics, when that is EXACTLY what you're doing now.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    that still doesnt contest or resolve the creator issue, i simply used your example of your mother being your creator. by that logic, your mother is your source of rights, not the government. So no matter how you interpret creator, the end result is the same. rights dont come from the government. so if they dont come from the government, they cant take them away.

    and there is a "wall of seperation of church and state", just because the laws of the land and the teachings of religous texts have common themes doesnt mean that a religion or church is the governing body

    ...your turn
    We are a land governed by the rule of law, which is created/crafted where? Government. Ironic isn't it.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post

    [email protected] me I'm arguing over semantics, when that is EXACTLY what you're doing now.
    I guess so, although you haven't made any post in the past two pages that was anything but semantics.

    Hard to argue an opposing view point when there isn't one, especially considering you have ignored every post I have made except for the ones about semantics.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    I guess so, although you haven't made any post in the past two pages that was anything but semantics.

    Hard to argue an opposing view point when there isn't one, especially considering you have ignored every post I have made except for the ones about semantics.
    Because you NEVER offer anything of substance. You come in here with your "opinions" of what you "think" to be the case. I offered various writings from Thomas Jefferson himself, NOT my own assumptions, nor my own interpretations. What did you offer?

  24. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    We are a land governed by a set of laws, which is created where? Government.
    so the constitution and bill of rights was written by govt, to set limititations on itself, which give and take away rights? i dont understand that logic. like you really have lost me there

    and frankly using your words "my mother created me". if my mother is my creator, then how can government also be my creator? also doesnt the constitution recognize the rights as individual liberties and not collective liberties? so I have an individual right to bear arms that was set forth by the government in the constution which was writen to limit its own powers to what rights they can and cant take away from me because they are rights that were given to me by my creator, which is govt. makes perfect sense

    i gues you win...damn didnt see this one coming
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
    I'm usually crying when people take naked pictures of me. Fcuking childhood.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    so the constitution and bill of rights was written by govt, to set limititations on itself, which give and take away rights? i dont understand that logic. like you really have lost me there

    and frankly using your words "my mother created me". if my mother is my creator, then how can government also be my creator? also doesnt the constitution recognize the rights as individual liberties and not collective liberties? so I have an individual right to bear arms that was set forth by the government in the constution which was writen to limit its own powers to what rights they can and cant take away from me because they are rights that were given to me by my creator, which is govt. makes perfect sense

    i gues you win...damn didnt see this one coming
    The Constitution is a framework outlining the role of government. I used Thomas Jefferson's writings to support the contention that he felt it should remain a living document, flexible and up for review and revisions every 19 years. Those examples are substantive, not based on Southpaw's opinions and/or interpretations. See these aren't my opinions, these are his expressions. "My mother created me," was figurative, NOT literal. :/

  26. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    The Constitution is a framework outlining the role of government. I used Thomas Jefferson's writings to support the contention that he felt it should remain a living document, flexible and up for review and revisions every 19 years. See these aren't my opinions, these are his expressions. "My mother created me," was figurative, NOT literal. :/
    it is a framework of its role, and that role is to protect the rights of its citizens, which are endowed by their creator, whoever that may be. its to PROTECT the rights, not take them away or make it unreasonable to exercise them.
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
    I'm usually crying when people take naked pictures of me. Fcuking childhood.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    The Constitution is a framework outlining the role of government. I used Thomas Jefferson's writings to support the contention that he felt it should remain a living document, flexible and up for review and revisions every 19 years. Those examples are substantive, not based Southpaw's opinions and/or interpretations. See these aren't my opinions, these are his expressions. "My mother created me," was figurative, NOT literal. :/
    i understand that it was figurative and not literal but even by that same logic becuase you contested my reference to the word creator by making an example that expresses that it is a secular term, not theological. i simply responded by using that same logical to illistrate that either way creator, no matter how subjective it is or if you choose to interpret it as secular or theological or literal, is not the government.
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
    I'm usually crying when people take naked pictures of me. Fcuking childhood.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    it is a framework of its role, and that role is to protect the rights of its citizens, which are endowed by their creator, whoever that may be. its to PROTECT the rights, not take them away or make it unreasonable to exercise them.
    Above all else, the document is NOT infallible, nor should it be inflexible per my examples.
    Our Constitution makes no mention of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important.

    In the eighty-five essays that make up The Federalist, God is mentioned only twice (both times by Madison, who uses the word, as Gore Vidal has remarked, in the "only Heaven knows" sense). In the Declaration of Independence, He gets two brief nods: a reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the famous line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." More blatant official references to a deity date from long after the founding period: "In God We Trust" did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and "under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954 [see Elisabeth Sifton, "The Battle Over the Pledge," April 5, 2004].
    In 1797 our government concluded a "Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, or Barbary," now known simply as the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 of the treaty contains these words:
    As the Government of the United States...is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility of Musselmen—and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
    This document was endorsed by Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and President John Adams. It was then sent to the Senate for ratification; the vote was unanimous. It is worth pointing out that although this was the 339th time a recorded vote had been required by the Senate, it was only the third unanimous vote in the Senate's history. There is no record of debate or dissent. The text of the treaty was printed in full in the Philadelphia Gazette and in two New York papers, but there were no screams of outrage, as one might expect today.
    The Founding Fathers were not religious men, and they fought hard to erect, in Thomas Jefferson's words, "a wall of separation between church and state." John Adams opined that if they were not restrained by legal measures, Puritans—the fundamentalists of their day—would "whip and crop, and pillory and roast." The historical epoch had afforded these men ample opportunity to observe the corruption to which established priesthoods were liable, as well as "the impious presumption of legislators and rulers," as Jefferson wrote, "civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time."
    If we define a Christian as a person who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then it is safe to say that some of the key Founding Fathers were not Christians at all. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine were deists—that is, they believed in one Supreme Being but rejected revelation and all the supernatural elements of the Christian Church; the word of the Creator, they believed, could best be read in Nature. John Adams was a professed liberal Unitarian, but he, too, in his private correspondence seems more deist than Christian.
    SOURCE: Our Godless Constitution, Brooke Allen, THE NATION, February 21, 2005 issue
    Here is further evidence that God was not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution...
    It has often been seen on the Internet that to find God in the Constitution, all one has to do is read it, and see how often the Framers used the words "God," or "Creator," "Jesus," or "Lord." Except for one notable instance, however, none of these words ever appears in the Constitution, neither the original nor in any of the Amendments. The notable exception is found in the Signatory section, where the date is written thusly: "Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The use of the word "Lord" here is not a religious reference, however. This was a common way of expressing the date, in both religious and secular contexts. This lack of any these words does not mean that the Framers were not spiritual people, any more than the use of the word Lord means that they were. What this lack of these words is expositive of is not a love for or disdain for religion, but the feeling that the new government should not involve itself in matters of religion. In fact, the original Constitution bars any religious test to hold any federal office in the United States.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    The subject was brought up by Manotaur (my mistake not you), with his response..."ive tried pointing out that the 2nd ammendment right is a godgiven right." Which means he invited it into the discussion, I simply responded. You can insult me, I don't mind. I lol @ most of that stuff considering who's making the argument.

    Just for clarification, you say I bring nothing to the discussion, yet I offered Thomas Jefferson's own words, and some of you offer nothing more than broad, simplistic interpretations based on opinion. And I'm the one who doesn't offer anything of substance to the discussion? Comedy.
    Wow...I go away for a couple of hours, Im still catching up...

    Anyways..I dont believe in God, but I dont see what the big deal is with the wording even if biased by personal belief.

    If someone says "godgiven right", I personally just interpret that as a natural right, god or not. Personal freedom is a natural right, or a right given by god of that's what you believe in....

    I dont see the purpose into clinging to the word "god" in the documents as relevant as to the rights themselves. Its just contributing to distracting away from the the issues.
    This message was paid for by the Russians

  30. There is some irony in saying that gun ownership is a god given right and cannot be taken away by man, in lieu of the fact that these documents were written by.... MEN.
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