Impeach Gov. Andrew Cuomo 4 violating New Yorker's 2nd Amendment

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I unfortunately got denied at one point due to having a security clearance... Ironic.

    Why the NICS system denies people is not well published. What is supposed to be the only limits are people underage and of violent crimes. Which we all know has been trampled on by multiple metro area's. In Chicago they had a 28 year ban on hand guns completely, a blatant disregard to what is supposed to be an inalienable right.

    What people don't understand is the proposed legislation by Ms. Dianne is infringing on a civil right.

    "Civil Right" - a right or rights belonging to a person by reason of citizenship including especially the fundamental freedoms and privileges guaranteed by the 13th and 14th amendments and subsequent acts of congress including the right to legal, social and economic equality.

    This makes gun ownership as much of a civil right as freedom of speech, religion and freedom of the press.
    Meaning limiting what make and model of rifle a citizen wishes to possess is a complete disregarding of a civil right.

    I am not one to say the world is going to end tomorrow on this debate alone.. but allowing one more freedom to be restricted to those who believe they know better is just allowing Big Brother to run your lives.

    I don't care if Hollywood makes another violent movie or GaGa wears her damn Abrams tank bra on stage... but I sure as well would stand next to them just to allow them to do so. Regardless of ones personal feelings on a subject, allowing freedoms to be restricted for any reason should be looked down upon with disgust.
    You mean the proposed ban on assault weapons/capacity limitations? Even with those restrictions in place, provided that one meets the basic requirements, they can go out purchase firearms. When taking into account person to person sales of firearms, in addition to gun show purchases, background checks are rarely if ever performed/enforced in these instances. That's a problem, not a limitation of freedoms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I don't find that idiotic at all.

    Problem is we haven't done so. I took an oath to protect our Constitution of the US... if that is replaced with another Constitution, then that will be the one to be protected.

    .
    you bastard! are you a lawmaker?!?! lol
    are you helping the problem or adding to it??
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I don't find that idiotic at all.

    Problem is we haven't done so. I took an oath to protect our Constitution of the US... if that is replaced with another Constitution, then that will be the one to be protected.

    It is the people's choice on how to proceed with the government. Instead of rewriting it, our previous generations just amended it to fit the current climate. Should we begin the process of getting 50 states to ratify a new consitution to fit our new climate, I am all for that. As long as peoples voices are heard.

    Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to wipe out the laws of the land completely and start fresh.. considering some of the albatross laws out there today. Like jail time for non violent crimes like smoking a little dope.. come on now.
    The process for seeking/implementing amendments to the Constitution are overly cumbersome, to the point that in this political climate, it's nearly impossible. There is a reason why there have been so few amendments made to the Constitution since its inception, and that was by design, unfortunately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    The process for seeking/implementing amendments to the Constitution are overly cumbersome, to the point that in this political climate, it's nearly impossible. There is a reason why there have been so few amendments made to the Constitution, and that was by design, unfortunately.
    as it should be, the constituion was to protect the rights of the civilians, not add to the power of the govt. I dont understand why its unfortunate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    as it should be, the constituion was to protect the rights of the civilians, not add to the power of the govt. I dont understand why its unfortunate.
    It's unfortunate that a document written hundreds of years ago, remains inflexible and is viewed by some as being infallible, contrary to what Jefferson himself advocated at the time.
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    i never said it was infallable, neither did jefferson, hence why he wrote his letters to madison. but jefferson was also an advocate of personal liberties and freedoms, and he knew that the constitution wasnt perfect nor comprehensive. he advocated a review of the consitution to make sure that ALL citizens have EVERY GOD GIVEN RIGHT available to them and that it would NOT BE INFRINGED UPON, be it by means of obsessive and undue legislation,or the govt creating laws to prevent these rights, hence my comment about slavery, suffrage, and so on and so forth
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    i never said it was infallable, neither did jefferson, hence why he wrote his letters to madison. but jefferson was also an advocate of personal liberties and freedoms, and he knew that the constitution wasnt perfect nor comprehensive. he advocated a review of the consitution to make sure that ALL citizens have EVERY GOD GIVEN RIGHT available to them and that it would NOT BE INFRINGED UPON, be it by means of obsessive and undue legislation,or the govt creating laws to prevent these rights, hence my comment about slavery, suffrage, and so on and so forth
    No, no and no. He advocated for the review and revision of the Constitution equating it to generational evolution, meaning that the Constitution should reflect the "current" needs of the "current" generation as to avoid being enslaved by the ideals of prior generations. You're interpreting your own meaning and intent behind the words in his letter, rather than letting the words speak for themselves.

    Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right. It may be said, that the succeeding generation exercising, in fact, the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law had been expressly limited to nineteen years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be, indeed, if every form of government were so perfectly contrived, that the will of the majority could always be obtained, fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves; their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils, bribery corrupts them, personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents; and other impediments arise, so as to prove to every practical man, that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:459, Papers 15:396

    [B]"[B]etween society and society, or generation and generation, there is no municipal obligation, no umpire but the law of nature. . . . y the law of nature, one generation is [therefore] to another as one independent nation to another."
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    Jefferson examined the question of re-constitution especially closely. In his letter to Madison, he occasionally supplements his 'entailed estate' description of intergenerational relations with a description based more on the concepts and language of international law:
    "[B]etween society and society, or generation and generation, there is no municipal obligation, no umpire but the law of nature. . . . [B]y the law of nature, one generation is [therefore] to another as one independent nation to another." f184
    Just as the entailed estate analogy, with its terminology of usufruct and waste, lends itself to issues of land use and property rights, the national sovereignty analogy is well suited to the analysis of power, control, and authority issues which arise between generations. To characterize generations as separate nations is to impliedly reject any generation's authority to legislate for a later generation. The analogy almost presupposes Jefferson's conclusion: that no constitution or law can be perpetual, that every constitution and law requires periodic re-ratification to remain effective.

    Jefferson maintains that re-ratification of constitutions and other legislation is required once every generation, and he defines a generation as the period after which a majority of those alive at the time of a law's passage shall themselves have passed away. Applying tables of mortality from the period, Jefferson calculates that:
    "Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right." f185
    In addition to his philosophic argument for expiring old laws and constitutions, Jefferson makes certain practical arguments. Like Sidney, he stresses the need for governmental institutions to keep pace with the evolution of human reason and understanding, f186 and he identifies periodic re-constitution and re-legislation as mechanisms for insuring that evolution. On practical grounds, he rejects the opportunity for amendment or repeal as an adequate substitute for the requirement of expiration and re-ratification. f187
    The same principles which invalidate perpetual constitutions and hereditary monarchies also invalidate, by implication, other perpetual legislation. Complementing the generational right of re-constitution, then, must be a generational right of re-legislation. Paine had applied the principle of generational sovereignty to ordinary legislation in a 1786 communication to the Pennsylvania legislature, in language which closely anticipated the tone of Jefferson's 1789 letter to Madison. Defending the state's right to revoke the Bank of North America's charter, Paine explained that a perpetual charter could not exist:
    "As we are not to live for ever ourselves, and other generations are to follow us, we have neither the power nor the right to govern them, or to say how they shall govern themselves. . . . [It is] the summit of human vanity . . . to be dictating to the world to come." f188
    He went on to suggest that 30 years was the average length of a generation, that any public act could not be in force longer than that term, and that it would be useful to have an explicit notation to that effect in the constitution. f189
    Reflecting the same general philosophy, numerous state constitutions forbade the legislative creation of perpetual or hereditary privileges. f190
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    No, no and no. He advocated for the review and revision of the Constitution equating it to generational evolution, meaning that the Constitution should reflect the "current" needs of the "current" generation as to avoid being enslaved by the ideals of prior generations. You're inferring meaning and intent behind the words in his letter, rather than letting the words speak for themselves.

    Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right. It may be said, that the succeeding generation exercising, in fact, the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law had been expressly limited to nineteen years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be, indeed, if every form of government were so perfectly contrived, that the will of the majority could always be obtained, fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves; their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils, bribery corrupts them, personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents; and other impediments arise, so as to prove to every practical man, that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:459, Papers 15:396

    [B]"[B]etween society and society, or generation and generation, there is no municipal obligation, no umpire but the law of nature. . . . y the law of nature, one generation is [therefore] to another as one independent nation to another."
    so by jeffersons logic with that, if your allowing his words to speak for themselves; murder, embezzlementt, and fraud would all be ok in todays society, because those laws would have expired well over 19 years ago.

    I understand what your saying about the inferring, but to a certain degree inferments have to be made as he is not here, to explain his thoughts and words and why he chose them when writing to madison, based on his other written works. Jefferson throught his life, was always an advocate of limited government-fewer laws, fewer lawmakers, fewer problems. he also taught that you cant rule morality.

    the point that ax is trying to make is that the NY laws and the laws that obama administration are proposing are obsessive and intrusive. Yes they still have the right on paper to bear arms, but their laws and restrictions are making it next to impossible to own or purchase one. This is what jefferson was against.

    also what ax is saying is that polliticians and lawmakers are smart and they know that "dat der constition" is a big problem in forcing their ideology and problems with guns on the rest of us. they know that they cant outright take guns away from people and make guns illegal (even though they have before, look at chicago) so they pass ridiculous laws and registration regulations and tariffs that make it unfeasable for most of the general public to obtain firearms
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    so by jeffersons logic with that, if your allowing his words to speak for themselves; murder, embezzlementt, and fraud would all be ok in todays society, because those laws would have expired well over 19 years ago.

    I understand what your saying about the inferring, but to a certain degree inferments have to be made as he is not here, to explain his thoughts and words and why he chose them when writing to madison, based on his other written works. Jefferson throught his life, was always an advocate of limited government-fewer laws, fewer lawmakers, fewer problems. he was also taught that you cant rule morality.

    the point that ax is trying to make is that the NY laws and the laws that obama administration are proposing are obsessive and intrusive. Yes they still have the right on paper to bear arms, but their laws and restrictions are making it next to impossible to own or purchase one. This is what jefferson was against.

    also what ax is saying is that polliticians and lawmakers are smart and they know that "dat der constition" is a big problem in forcing their ideology and problems with guns on the rest of us. they know that they cant outright take guns away from people and make guns illegal (even though they have before, look at chicago) so they pass ridiculous laws and registration regulations and tariffs that make it unfeasable for most of the general public to obtain firearms
    You don't have to interpret or infer intent behind his words, because his words are clear. And respectfully, that is the silliest comment that I've read in some time..."o by jeffersons logic with that, if your allowing his words to speak for themselves; murder, embezzlementt, and fraud would all be ok in todays society, because those laws would have expired well over 19 years ago." That is not what he expressed at ALL! Calling for the review/revision of the Constitution does NOT equate to complete removal of law. Lol. :/

    Explain to me in detail how it is becoming nearly IMPOSSIBLE to own a firearm?
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    You don't have to interpret or infer intent behind his words, because his words are clear. And respectfully, that is the silliest comment that I've read in some time..."o by jeffersons logic with that, if your allowing his words to speak for themselves; murder, embezzlementt, and fraud would all be ok in todays society, because those laws would have expired well over 19 years ago." That is not what he expressed at ALL! Calling for the review/revision of the Constitution does NOT equate to complete removal of law. Lol. :/

    Explain to me in detail how it is becoming nearly IMPOSSIBLE to own a firearm?
    lol i know it was a bit of a stretch and exageration but i was trying to illistrate a point. so ill give you that one, i should have picked something not so extreme.

    how much detail,
    background checks on the local, state and federal level, taxes and terrifs on the registration, purchase, and ownership of the weapon that must be renewed every so often, placeing manufacturing tarrifs on ammunition and also placing the taxes on ammo seperate from regular sales tax (federal ammo tax), and also calling for the registration of ammo purchases, not to mention they want to limit the amount of ammo we can purchase...and this is all to be funded by the purchaser? this could easily turn buying a gun that currently cost 400 dollars (about average SRV of a polymer handgun which is now being ruled an assault weapon by the current administration) into a an affair that could end up in the thousands depending on where the purchaser lives, which isnt all that far fetched for NY.

    i know obsessive is a relative term but does that seem like a reasonable a
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    I personally look at any gun control being an infringement of my 2nd amendment right.

    As far as I'm concerned I have the right to bear (carry) arms (weapons). It does not say I have the right to carry certain firearms that the government sees fit and it does not say I have the right to bear arms only in certain states with certain permits.

    Note I say INFRINGE not STRIP. Which is an important difference to point out because everytime someone says something about the 2nd amendment being infringed upon southpaw replies with "but you can still get guns." Yes, you're right. Certain people can get certain weapons depending upon the state they live in, but its still an infringement upon my 2nd amendment right as an American citizen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    I personally look at any gun control being an infringement of my 2nd amendment right.

    As far as I'm concerned I have the right to bear (carry) arms (weapons). It does not say I have the right to carry certain firearms that the government sees fit and it does not say I have the right to bear arms only in certain states with certain permits.

    Note I say INFRINGE not STRIP. Which is an important difference to point out because everytime someone says something about the 2nd amendment being infringed upon southpaw replies with "but you can still get guns." Yes, you're right. Certain people can get certain weapons depending upon the state they live in, but its still an infringement upon my 2nd amendment right as an American citizen.
    hes also arguing that the consitution is outdated that because jefferson advocating a revision of the constitution every 19 years, we should add or take away rights, ive tried pointing out that the 2nd ammendment right is a godgiven right, not a right that can be controlled by man.

    i dunno jimbo can you help me out?? or am i yankin an ass by his ears?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post

    hes also arguing that the consitution is outdated that because jefferson advocating a revision of the constitution every 19 years, we should add or take away rights, ive tried pointing out that the 2nd ammendment right is a godgiven right, not a right that can be controlled by man.

    i dunno jimbo can you help me out?? or am i yankin an ass by his ears?
    Well my knowledge of those letters is fairly minimal.

    However, if he is specifically talking about the constitution then that does not necessarily apply to the Bill of Rights. Also, he relies upon Jefferson's beliefs but completely ignores the fact that Jefferson was not the only founding father.

    He voiced his beliefs and the others did not necessarily agree, because if they did they would have set it up the way Jefferson believed to be best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    hes also arguing that the consitution is outdated that because jefferson advocating a revision of the constitution every 19 years, we should add or take away rights, ive tried pointing out that the 2nd ammendment right is a godgiven right, not a right that can be controlled by man.

    i dunno jimbo can you help me out?? or am i yankin an ass by his ears?
    God given....whose god? :/
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Well my knowledge of those letters is fairly minimal.

    However, if he is specifically talking about the constitution then that does not apply
    his letters covered a number of things, but this particular letter that he is referencing is refering to the consitution
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    God given....who's god? :/
    anybodies god, jeffersons included. jefferson being a polytheist was all inclusive can leave anybody out
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Well my knowledge of those letters is fairly minimal.

    However, if he is specifically talking about the constitution then that does not apply
    So something that you admit to having little knowledge of, in your own estimation does not apply to the argument. Awesome logic there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post

    his letters covered a number of things, but this particular letter that he is referencing is refering to the consitution
    Sorry, mobile posting. That sent before I had finished.
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    I agree add Bloomberg.. I hate those two stupid sobs. That why there so much crime, everyone should own a gun. Automatic should be your choice not nys or NYC politicians choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    anybodies god, jeffersons included. jefferson being a polytheist was all inclusive can leave anybody out
    Glad you brought that up, as Jefferson also advocated for the separation of religion and government. Your turn...
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    It's not like the criminals will follow the law how ignorant are these politicians.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post

    So something that you admit to having little knowledge of, in your own estimation does not apply to the argument. Awesome logic there.
    Let's not go to extremes here, I know it is your bread and butter, but do not equate "little knowledge" to mean "no knowledge."
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    Gun control laws are only gonna keep certain guns away from law abiding citizens. Criminals do not care about the previous laws that we had let alone the new gun laws. If a criminal wants a gun they will get any gun they want. Sure if they get caught it will be worse for them but has that ever stopped a criminal from committing a crime before?
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    its also important to mention that the constitution uses the term "creator", which is a reference to a diety, jefferson uses the words god, lord, savior, and almighty in his letters and essays.
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Glad you brought that up, as Jefferson also advocated for the separation of religion and government. Your turn...
    lol my turn? is this a game of chess or go-fish?

    he did advocate it but jefferson was also intellegent enough to admit that all laws and morals are based in religion, thats why the original laws of this country were based on the teachings of religous text, ie the Ten commandments specificallly.

    also when jefferson called for the seperation of church and state, (not religion and state i might add) he was against a national/official religion or church being established, he was also against any church or religous organization being the legislative or ruling authority for the country.
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    its also important to mention that the constitution uses the term "creator", which is a reference to a diety, jefferson uses the words god, lord, savior, and almighty in his letters and essays.
    Subjective as it also makes no mention of god. My mother created me.
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    Wow... what a cluster **** of a thread now.

    God given, whose god, all god, your god, I have no god.

    Glad we could stay on topic.

    /unsubbed
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Wow... what a cluster **** of a thread now.

    God given, whose god, all god, your god, I have no god.

    Glad we could stay on topic.

    /unsubbed
    You didn't see me bringing it up...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Wow... what a cluster **** of a thread now.

    God given, whose god, all god, your god, I have no god.

    Glad we could stay on topic.

    /unsubbed
    This happens a lot in these threads.

    Generally when someone makes a valid argument SP begins to argue semantics to avoid addressing a point he doesn't have a practiced response for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Subjective as it also makes no mention of god. My mother created me.
    biology lesson...your mother AND father created you. even if your mother was a hermaphrodite its still physiologically impossible for a human to reproduce autonomously.

    so either your not human or you have a momma and a daddy.

    not to get petty though.

    and yes creator is subjective as to who a creator is, but it certainly isnt the governtment, which is the point the comment/reference was making. so even if you refer to you mother as the subjective creator, she is the one that has endowed those rights upon you, not the government.

    i couldnt help but notice you chose to ignore the fact that jefferson made numerous specific reference to a diety or higher power in his letters.
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
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    your turn...lol
    Quote Originally Posted by iparatroop View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post

    God given....who's god? :/
    You brought it up right here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANotaur View Post
    biology lesson...your mother AND father created you. even if your mother was a hermaphrodite its still physiologically impossible for a human to reproduce autonomously.

    so either your not human or you have a momma and a daddy.

    not to get petty though.

    and yes creator is subjective as to who a creator is, but it certainly isnt the governtment, which is what it was making. so even if you refer to you mother as the subjective creator, she is the one that has endowed those rights upon you, not the government.

    i couldnt help but notice you chose to ignore the fact that jefferson made numerous specific reference to a diety or higher power in his letters.
    Awesome captain "literal." I didn't ignore anything. When you examine Jefferson's writing in its entirely, he is detailing his personal belief system, at no point does he inject his personal beliefs into the discussion when describing the role of government, as Jefferson indicated in his own words - "wall of separation between church and state."
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    You brought it up right here.
    In response to your statement..."godgiven right." Jesus man...seriously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post

    In response to your statement..."godgiven right." Jesus man...seriously.
    Nice reading comprehension.

    I have not said that once.

    Also, it is his view that the right is God given, as he believes in God, is he not allowed to express his views because you don't believe in God?

    You brought this God argument up over someone else's word choice and then attempted to say you didn't bring it up.

    At this point I am positive that you are a troll, you never bring anything to the discussion. When other posters make a point in opposition to your views you refuse to acknowledge their views and begin to argue over semantics in an effort to show your percieved intellectual superiority.

    Make an argument about the topic at hand or don't reply.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Nice reading comprehension.

    I have not said that once.

    Also, it is his view that the right is God given, as he believes in God, is he not allowed to express his views because you don't believe in God?

    You brought this God argument up over someone else's word choice and then attempted to say you didn't bring it up.

    At this point I am positive that you are a troll, you never bring anything to the discussion. When other posters make a point in opposition to your views you refuse to acknowledge their views and begin to argue over semantics in an effort to show your percieved intellectual superiority.

    Make an argument about the topic at hand or don't reply.

    The subject was brought up by Manotaur (my mistake not you), with his response..."ive tried pointing out that the 2nd ammendment right is a godgiven right." Which means he invited it into the discussion, I simply responded. You can insult me, I don't mind. I lol @ most of that stuff considering who's making the argument.

    Just for clarification, you say I bring nothing to the discussion, yet I offered Thomas Jefferson's own words, and some of you offer nothing more than broad, simplistic interpretations based on opinion. And I'm the one who doesn't offer anything of substance to the discussion? Comedy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post

    The subject was brought up by Manotaur (my mistake not you), with his response..."ive tried pointing out that the 2nd ammendment right is a godgiven right." Which means he brought it into the discussion, I simply responded.
    You responded over semantics.

    We get it, you don't believe in God. Good for you.

    His point had nothing to do with God and the words "God given" can be interchanged with 'unalienable" if you prefer.

    If you have an argument to make about the points at hand then make it. If not, go troll elsewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Awesome captain "literal." I didn't ignore anything. When you examine Jefferson's writing in its entirely, he is detailing his personal belief system, at no point does he inject his personal beliefs into the discussion when describing the role of government, as Jefferson indicated in his own words - "wall of separation between church and state."
    that still doesnt contest or resolve the creator issue, i simply used your example of your mother being your creator. by that logic, your mother is your source of rights, not the government. So no matter how you interpret creator, the end result is the same. rights dont come from the government. so if they dont come from the government, they cant take them away.

    and there is a "wall of seperation of church and state", just because the laws of the land and the teachings of religous texts have common themes doesnt mean that a religion or church is the governing body

    ...your turn
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    You responded over semantics.

    We get it, you don't believe in God. Good for you.

    His point had nothing to do with God and the words "God given" can be interchanged with 'unalienable" if you prefer.

    If you have an argument to make about the points at hand then make it. If not, go troll elsewhere.
    Lol@telling me I'm arguing over semantics, when that is EXACTLY what you're doing now.
  

  
 

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