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Obamney 2012 - Barack Obama And Mitt Romney Are Essentially The Same Candidate

  1.  11-08-2012  01:10 PM
    Running with the Big Boys DAdams91982's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    So company due to mismanagement, lays off thousands of workers, no severance payments with many losing their pensions in the process. Now they are forced to look for work, but no one is hiring, eventually they are unable to keep up with their mortgage payments and end up losing their homes. What do you say to these people? Sorry...you played by the rules but you're on your own. Meanwhile the company can sell off its debt and restructure, once again receiving benefits, while management walks away with massive bonuses. That's your idea of a plan? That's fair? Or are you simply marrying yourself to a philosophy, an ideal and opting to remain inflexible?
    But really.. why are there no jobs? The economy blows because of government, not capitalism. Not only has the government gotten us into the problem we are in, but now we are looking at the same people to bail us out? Unemployment has become a revenue source income now rather than a life line.

    I am a person that believe the Gov. shouldn't even be the ones to look to for "Getting the people back to work". That should be the free market. The same free market we brutalize with the globes highest corporate tax.

    The last couple generations have an ego about them that they are better than labor, one of the effects for education for all. The illegal work force is thriving in our country for the sheer fact an American feels manual labor is below them, angling for that high paying office job. Not everyone is made to be an academic, yet we keep touting that like it is true. Someone has to flip the burgers, someone has to frame the houses, someone has to pour the concrete.

    Let's be clear here, I don't believe I ever said i believe in tax breaks for outsourcing. But yet, the tax breaks for offshore labor is a myth anyway perpetuated by putting spin on the existing tax law for allowing WAY to many deductions. Offshore labor is deducted as a business expense. That's it, they can use that as a deduction. There isn't some hidden tax incentive for going offshore, it is just cheaper. Change our tax laws in the US to benefit AMERICAN workers, and jobs will return as long as people are willing to take a call center job that is "Below them" when they can make more off their unemployment.
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  2.  11-08-2012  01:11 PM
    ax1
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    Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    You must set the bar really low. Is getting up in the morning the pinnacle of your day? You also suck it up and stop blaming the government for all of your woes. It may not be the government's job to pay for peoples' mortgages/benefits, but it's also not their job to offer corporate protection for companies that outsource labor and mismanage publicly traded companies, yet they do it anyway regardless of the party in charge. And because some people consider themselves corporatists, they defend that position. If that is to be the case, then extend protections for all or NONE. But you'll never see that because ultimately it will be viewed as an anti-business approach.
    Because the wars are my priority, thats who I am. You say you care about people, but then you want the same goverment thats slaughtering people consistently day in day out in meaningless wars to help people.

    My life is very good so stop saying Im blaming goverment for my own woes.

    How about you stop depending on goverment to take care of everything and everybody.

    The government's job is to enforce the constitution which they take oath too.

    Im not a corporatist, you are. I assume you support all those bailouts right? When I support that all those companies should be left alone to crash.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!

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  3.  11-08-2012  01:12 PM
    Running with the Big Boys DAdams91982's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    And all those who oppose it are equally unmatched in facts. There are numerous studies the convey quite the opposite of what is being posted here, saying that when it kicks in fully, it will drive down premiums for most.
    Please provide these. As the Congressional Budget Office themselves believe otherwise in their release in August.
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  4.  11-08-2012  01:12 PM
    ax1
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    Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    What happens if bigfoot really exists? Is that really a unicorn in my back yard? Why I haven't seen the Chupacabra yet? Is the Easter Bunny living in my closet? I know you love "what if" scenarios, but let's meet back here when actual reality offers back the answers. Then we can have a reasonable debate. It's an idea, we'll see it put into practice and only time will tell. If it turns out to be a failure, ultimately it will be repealed. If it turns out to be successful, then ultimately you'll come back here and ask the important questions, like..."what if we're invaded by Count Dooku.What then?"
    You totally dodged important questions that I bought up to validate my point. When I ask how much you dont know, you refer to Unicorns.

    This is the problem, people who support the mandate are clueless to costs.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!

  5.  11-08-2012  01:17 PM
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    Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Because the wars are my priority, thats who I am. You say you care about people, but then you want the same goverment thats slaughtering people consistently day in day out in meaningless wars to help people.

    My life is very good so stop saying Im blaming goverment for my own woes.

    How about you stop depending on goverment to take care of everything and everybody.

    The government's job is to enforce the constitution which they take oath too.

    Im not a corporatist, you are. I assume you support all those bailouts right? When I support that all those companies should be left alone to crash.
    Look at Ford. That is what happens when there are people who actually work hard and change as the times need.

    Ford was in the same position GM was, only difference is GM took the bailout and Ford is strong as ever.

    Now GM cant even get rid of the Feds from their operations.
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  6.  11-08-2012  01:21 PM
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    Originally Posted by DAdams91982

    Look at Ford. That is what happens when there are people who actually work hard and change as the times need.

    Ford was in the same position GM was, only difference is GM took the bailout and Ford is strong as ever.

    Now GM cant even get rid of the Feds from their operations.
    Yep. GM taking that bailout is what put me off of GM. I've always been a Ford guy anyway.
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  7.  11-08-2012  01:26 PM
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    Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    If every budget you present has tax cuts in it for the top earners, and you draw a line in the sand refusing to step away from that position, then the issue becomes inflexible. I agree cuts must be made, but done so in reasonable fashion, not slash and burn.
    honestly, the top 5% of earnings pay the highest % of total US tax revenue since too long ago for me to find it. Its a story line that the democrats use "the rich getting away with tax cuts" but they have year by year been forced to cover more of the burden, not less as the story line goes. If I have to, i'll go through the IRS tables to show you the actual data, but its there. Nobody is asking for more tax cuts for the high income earners. I personally am a fan of letting all the Bush tax cuts expire. Letting them expire for over 250k only generates 50 billion in revenue, letting them all expire generates close to 170 billion. I think letting it expire over 1 million was something like 34 billion, can't recall it exactly. With a 1 trillion deficit, 50 billion isn't even noticeable, but 170 is.

  8.  11-08-2012  01:35 PM
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    Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Because the wars are my priority, thats who I am. You say you care about people, but then you want the same goverment thats slaughtering people consistently day in day out in meaningless wars to help people.

    My life is very good so stop saying Im blaming goverment for my own woes.

    How about you stop depending on goverment to take care of everything and everybody.

    The government's job is to enforce the constitution which they take oath too.

    Im not a corporatist, you are. I assume you support all those bailouts right? When I support that all those companies should be left alone to crash.
    Because I work at a corporation, that makes me a corporatist? I value employee protections, not just my sole protection. Many of these companies that you wanted to let crash, held subsidiaries which were tied into the credit market. If you let one fall, they all fall. The fallout from that is catastrophic for the credit markets/investors. There is a domino effect at hand, pensions, holdings, 401ks that were at stake. Once again, your response is to let people lose everything they've worked for?

  9.  11-08-2012  01:41 PM
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    Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Because I work at a corporation, that makes me a corporatist? I value employee protections, not just my sole protection. Many of these companies that you wanted to let crash, held subsidiaries which were tied into the credit market. If you let one fall, they all fall. The fallout from that is catastrophic for the credit markets/investors. There is a domino effect at hand, pensions, holdings, 401ks that were at stake. Once again, your response is to let people lose everything they've worked for?
    realistically, propping those companies up primarily delays people losing everything they worked for, doesn't stop it. And again, taking a different perspective, given how you talk about the wealthy isn't it true that it would damage them disproportionately more as they have more in investments/net worth?

  10.  11-08-2012  01:42 PM
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    Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Because I work at a corporation, that makes me a corporatist? I value employee protections, not just my sole protection. Many of these companies that you wanted to let crash, held subsidiaries which were tied into the credit market. If you let one fall, they all fall. The fallout from that is catastrophic for the credit markets/investors. There is a domino effect at hand, pensions, holdings, 401ks that were at stake. Once again, your response is to let people lose everything they've worked for?
    The burden shouldn't be taken on others that had nothing to do with it.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!

  11.  11-08-2012  01:45 PM
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    Originally Posted by DAdams91982

    Look at Ford. That is what happens when there are people who actually work hard and change as the times need.

    Ford was in the same position GM was, only difference is GM took the bailout and Ford is strong as ever.

    Now GM cant even get rid of the Feds from their operations.
    The feds own GM. They still owe billions of dollars to the feds. It's is now called government motors.

  12.  11-08-2012  01:52 PM
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    Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    The burden shouldn't be taken on others that had nothing to do with it.
    I don't view people who have played by the rules as being burdens.

  13.  11-08-2012  01:55 PM
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    Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    I don't view people who have played by the rules as being burdens.
    why should my earnings go to support a bank that was failing because of bad choices? As you can see by the fine job done with it, it did absolutely 0 for the people who played by the rules, but did get bank execs big bonuses. Had the banks been allowed to fail instead, it would have created a lot more caution within the financial industry. Instead it let them know that so long as they find a way to take the risky choices or pad books in ways that don't break the law, they can go ahead and do it with assurance that taxpayer dollars will cover it.

    And yes, I know it was a Bush agenda item, I was against many bush agenda pieces including Medicare part D.

  14.  11-08-2012  01:55 PM
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    Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    I don't view people who have played by the rules as being burdens.
    Why not? They should have known that doomsday was coming when they did nothing about the quality of the cars.

    They put a lot of energy being activists for their union but not their product.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!

  15.  11-08-2012  02:16 PM
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    Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    why should my earnings go to support a bank that was failing because of bad choices? As you can see by the fine job done with it, it did absolutely 0 for the people who played by the rules, but did get bank execs big bonuses. Had the banks been allowed to fail instead, it would have created a lot more caution within the financial industry. Instead it let them know that so long as they find a way to take the risky choices or pad books in ways that don't break the law, they can go ahead and do it with assurance that taxpayer dollars will cover it.

    And yes, I know it was a Bush agenda item, I was against many bush agenda pieces including Medicare part D.
    I understand the core principal of your argument and in many ways I agree with you. I'm NOT for bailing out banks either. However, it's not that simple when you take into account what is involved. The holdings these banks had, investments, pension management, a lot of innocent people stood to lose EVERYTHING, at the very least they were able to transfer their investments and walk away with what they had, while some even lost a substantial amount of their earnings. I agree the banks did not play by the rules, but those that did shouldn't have to risk their futures as punishment for that. So again, I understand your point. But my point is, it's not as simple as just letting them crash and walk away. There ramifications are far reaching. I'd say f*ck big banks too, if innocent people weren't harmed as a result. They deserve protections too.

  16.  11-08-2012  02:23 PM
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    Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    I understand the core principal of your argument and in many ways I agree with you. I'm NOT for bailing out banks either. However, it's not that simple when you take into account what is involved. The holdings these banks had, investments, pension management, a lot of innocent people stood to lose EVERYTHING, at the very least they were able to transfer their investments and walk away with what they had, while some even lost a substantial amount of their earnings. I agree the banks did not play by the rules, but those that did shouldn't have to risk their futures as punishment for that. So again, I understand your point. But my point is, it's not as simple as just letting them crash and walk away. There ramifications are far reaching. I'd say f*ck big banks too, if innocent people weren't harmed as a result. They deserve protections too.
    but the bailouts didn't particularly protect them. The bailouts kept the banks open, but the markets crashed, and people lost 40% of their investments anyhow.

  17.  11-08-2012  02:23 PM
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    Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Why not? They should have known that doomsday was coming when they did nothing about the quality of the cars.

    They put a lot of energy being activists for their union but not their product.
    I wasn't just referring to one sector, the auto-industry. :/

  18.  11-08-2012  02:31 PM
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    Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    I wasn't just referring to one sector, the auto-industry. :/
    The industry as a whole failed. Also you cant just blame those on top. Those on top get bugged for higher pay, benefit after benefit, etc....lose incentive to make quality products due to rising cost demands from Unions. Unions ime cause a socialistic state with the workers and they loose all their incentive to do better.

    Its not the job of the tax payer to save these jobs.

    What you have to do is let it crash, liquidate the company and hope someone else picks the company back up. If not then people should have been prepared because there is no such thing as security, only self reliance.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!

  19.  11-08-2012  02:35 PM
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    Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    a lot of innocent people stood to lose EVERYTHING, at the very least they were able to transfer their investments and walk away with what they had, while some even lost a substantial amount of their earnings. I agree the banks did not play by the rules, but those that did shouldn't have to risk their futures as punishment for that. So again, I understand your point. But my point is, it's not as simple as just letting them crash and walk away. There ramifications are far reaching. I'd say f*ck big banks too, if innocent people weren't harmed as a result. They deserve protections too.
    Alot of innocent people are going to be punished that had nothing to do with people making wrong decisions on who to trust with their finances. People have been warned for years not to involve themselves in these ponzi scheme investments, but they get blamed for being a "conspiracy theorist"

    I dont invest my money in these crappy banking institutions. I as well as others shouldnt be responsible for other peoples irresponsible risks trusting some blood thirsty bank to gamble their money.

    The fed is infinitely pumping 80 billion a month in bailout money infinitely. Money is printed out of thin air and currency is devalued and in greater danger of being collapsed globally.

    You cant save everybody, whats important is not letting the system collapse and so far the solutions have amounted to just about nothing other than more debt and having the country closer to collapse.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!

  20.  11-08-2012  02:37 PM
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    Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    but the bailouts didn't particularly protect them. The bailouts kept the banks open, but the markets crashed, and people lost 40% of their investments anyhow.
    The numbers ranged anywhere between 20% to 60% on losses, depending how much you had tied up in the market. The point is it allowed them to walk away with something they'd earned, rather than losing it all. I didn't want to see my parents lose anything, much less everything. They lost over a lifetime's worth of savings. I've seen the impact that its had on my parents. When I look at my father, I can see the pain of that inside him, even though he never talks about it. That he came here with a dream, worked his a$$ off (no entitlements) and took us from sleeping on a wooden floor, to an apt, to eventually our own home. I can't and won't accept that. Here you have two people who did everything right so that their kids could live a better life, and here they are struggling in the years where they are supposed to be enjoying the fruits of their labor. No, can't do it. Won't do it. AX claims his passion is raging against wars, mine is consumer/employee protections.It's why I took advantage of the market and created a compliance firm, not allowing the market to take advantage of me.

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