Al Qaeda tries to make a deal with U.S.?

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    Al Qaeda tries to make a deal with U.S.?


    Al Qaeda is trying to make a deal that only france would accept, check it out! They're freggin scared! If I had a poon-tang, it would be wet right now!! Now what do those hippies have to say about the administration "taking their eye off the ball"? When UBL is asking us to stop beating them up, they're taking hits.
    Exerpt:
    ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- The Al-Jazeera network aired a new videotape of Osama bin Laden Friday, in which the al Qaeda leader says that in order to avoid further attacks, the United States should not attack al Qaeda.

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/otsc.nasr/

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    Heh. Pretty naive to think that bin laden is "scared" and that's why he's calmly shooting propaganda video to influence our election 4 days prior.

    Think about why this is released 4 days before the election. It's an obvious attempt to influence it.

    Bin Laden is smart. A majority of Americans, tragically, are not. Because of the misperception that Bush is "tough" on terrorism and Kerry is not, this will jolt many Americans into voting for Bush, just to "stick it" to Bin Laden.

    Tear assing into the wrong country and pissing off our allies, yes, even France, is not "tough", it's stupid.

    Bin Laden knows this and wants it. Think about the last 2 years of American foreign policy. It's a veritable recruiting video for Al Qaeda. The longer Bush is in power, pissing off moderate Muslims, screwing up Iraq, breaking ties with our allies, the better off Bin Laden is. Look at the poll numbers on how many other countries (their citizens, not their leaders) have unfavorable opinions of the US and it's actions:

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nat...ws-nationworld

    And that is just "western" countries. In Arab nations, things are even more dire. 4 more years of Bush and we'll all be really screwed, isolated and drowning in a mess of our own doing.

    Moderate Muslims in countries around the world will be foaming at the mouth to join Bin Laden and fight America. Bin Laden will have won, and it will be the fault of people who, like you, look at this situation and presume that Bush is the answer to this problem. Falling for Bin Laden's trick.
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    Not quite true. Muslims have been pissed at America for more than two decades, and attacking us for just as long. 9/11 was their first big attack, it can in no way be pinned on George W. Bush, nor can further attacks, unless you also blame every president before him all the way back to Truman, and perhaps further. Kerry offers no real change in policy regarding the Middle East, only that he thinks it would be sort of swell if more countries would join us as we masacre Iraqis, and gee he'd like a time machine too so he can go back and change his stances on the issue in the past to reflect the more complete knowledge we have about Iraq now.

    Kerry wants a grand coalition of countries again. Well that grand coalition we had under George H.W. Bush didn't exactly finish the job. In fact the further stationing of troops in Saudi Arabia and the sanctions on Iraq that followed are two reasons Bin Laden always gives for his hatred of the US and as his motivation for carrying out the 9/11 attacks. Both of which can be pinned on the first Bush and Clinton. Bin Laden and other terrorists have pointed to an arab television interview with Madeline Albright, where she said all the death and misery in Iraq as a result of the sanctions was justified, as one of the chief examples of why they are so pissed at the west. The point being Muslim hatred of the US goes back further and is more deeply rooted in that part of the world than most Americans realize, and George W. Bush is responsible for a small fraction of that hatred.

    Only two things can change the middle east and terrorism: a change in US policy towards a military disengagement with that part of the world; or a change in middle east culture. Kerry will do neither, Bush is at least trying to accomplish the latter, though it is probably a futile attempt.

    One other things people avoid looking at is geography. If Iraq and Afghanistan can be stabilized they will likely for some time be host to a US military presence of some force. What's right between Iraq and Afghanistan? Iran. What country is on Iraq's northwestern border and Israel's northeastern? Syria. Strategically that' not a bad place to be if you want to project a quick preemptive attack or a response to a terrorist attack into one of those countries, all else being equal. Whether the problems of the necessary occupations will out weight the benefits is something we can only tell with time.

    As for other countries and their opinions of the US, I couldn't care less. I'd rather be right than popular. That's not to say this war is right, I haven't come to that decision yet. Just to point out the total irrelevance of what other people/countries think. They're going to not like the US, call us cowboys and what not no matter what we do. It might be high time we started living up to that reputation.
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    they call us "crusaders" / "infidels"
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    Bin Laden is smart. A majority of Americans, tragically, are not. Because of the misperception that Bush is "tough" on terrorism and Kerry is not, this will jolt many Americans into voting for Bush, just to "stick it" to Bin Laden.

    Tear assing into the wrong country and pissing off our allies, yes, even France, is not "tough", it's stupid.
    It is ridiculous to believe that the reason why the UN and some of our "allies" aren't supporting us is simply because Bush is a idiot, they were right, and we were wrong on Iraq. There is a plethora of evidence that the UN, France, Germany, and Russia were all getting paid off by Sadam. It may even go as high up as Koffy Annan and the prime minister of France. So the notion that we "alienated our allies" is simply not true. Even more ridiculous is the notion that John Kerry will get our "allies" back on track. France and Germany has already said that they will not support us in Iraq regardless of who gets elected. Kerry has alienated our current allies and the new Iraqi leaders by calling them pawns for the Bush administration. He has not clearly differentiated how his plan is any different from Bush's. In fact it all most identical. Kerry has a plan for everything but can't give any details. In the video Bin Laden basically took a play from the Michael Moore far left play book. The most damning thing that could go against Kerry is an endorsement from Bin Laden. The fact is aside from Israel no one likes us in the middle east.
    Last edited by VanillaGorilla; 10-31-2004 at 02:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jboogie
    Heh. Pretty naive to think that bin laden is "scared" and that's why he's calmly shooting propaganda video to influence our election 4 days prior.
    Well, if our attacks on al Qaeda were nothing for bin Laden to fear what purpose does this "deal" serve? It's a fact that al Qaeda has not been able to pull itself together because they've not been able to create a safe haven for themselves. They've been stopped around the world, and the most notable time being in Northern Africa. They need a break in order to organize and regroup. I think that along with Yasser Arafat, and Kim Jong Il, that Bin Laden would be in favor of Kerry coming into office for a number of reason. The biggest of which being the short transition time from when the old admin leaves and the new admin enters they'll have an opening to organize.
    Think about why this is released 4 days before the election. It's an obvious attempt to influence it.
    Of course it is. He was bashing GWB throughout the whole entire tape. He hates GWB and obviously wants him out of office. He thinks if he "scares" us like this, we'll react like the Spanish poons and elect the pacifist/appeaser who will give al Qaeda whatever it wishes for so they don't pick on them.
    Bin Laden is smart. A majority of Americans, tragically, are not. Because of the misperception that Bush is "tough" on terrorism and Kerry is not, this will jolt many Americans into voting for Bush, just to "stick it" to Bin Laden.
    Yeah, UBL is smart. I don't think it's true to say that Kerry is not being honest when he says he'd hunt down and kill terrorists. He means it. No american wants to see our countrymen killed by psychotic islalmofacists. However, it's blatantly obvious that Kerry is an internationalist and is much weaker on defense than is Bush.
    Tear assing into the wrong country and pissing off our allies, yes, even France, is not "tough", it's stupid.
    Schroeder, Chirac...I can give a rats ass about them. The last thing they care about is America. **** them. What's stupid is thinking that the likes of Chirac, Schroeder, Annon, etc have to be consulted for our actions to be legitimate. Their all blatantly anti-american...they want America to be under the socialist, centrist UN rule.
    Bin Laden knows this and wants it. Think about the last 2 years of American foreign policy. It's a veritable recruiting video for Al Qaeda. The longer Bush is in power, pissing off moderate Muslims, screwing up Iraq, breaking ties with our allies, the better off Bin Laden is. Look at the poll numbers on how many other countries (their citizens, not their leaders) have unfavorable opinions of the US and it's actions:

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nat...ws-nationworld

    And that is just "western" countries. In Arab nations, things are even more dire. 4 more years of Bush and we'll all be really screwed, isolated and drowning in a mess of our own doing.

    Moderate Muslims in countries around the world will be foaming at the mouth to join Bin Laden and fight America. Bin Laden will have won, and it will be the fault of people who, like you, look at this situation and presume that Bush is the answer to this problem. Falling for Bin Laden's trick.
    Well, do your history homework buddy. Islamic radicalism has been a problem FOR CENTURIES. Even the horrible "crusades" were a result of Islam trying to basically convert the world to Islam through death. Take a look at the ottoman empire. This is nothing new. We didn't even have the capacity to interject ourselves of foreign countries when they were doing all of this stuff in the past, yet they still hated the westerners, their religion, their cutlure, etc. This is nothing new and if you think Bush is the problem, think again. He's their problem more than anything.

    I'l disagree with CDB on this. I don't think pullling our asses out of countries all around the globe is going to make them stop hating us. It's not going to stop until the theocracies and dictatoriships fall. There is a very educated pro american sect in the muslim world, Iran haing the prime example with it's college students, who are silenced by their "leaders." Once the oppression and brain washing stops in teh middle east, then the peace will start.
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    KWYCK,

    Once again you build your straw-man argument. Where OBL says:

    "Your security is not in the hands of [Democratic presidential nominee John] Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Any nation that does not attack us will not be attacked."

    What exactly do you seggest that he means? He has made it extremely clear since well before 911 that he considers any US troops in any Islamic country an attack on Islam. Any propping up of secular or other governments that are friendly to our interests (such that he considers against Islam) is an attack.

    His goal is a united states of Islam, extending from Indonesia to East Europe. He plans on it taking generations.

    Your assesment that he's "freggin scared" is simply wishful thinking. My advice is to join the reality-based community.
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    i don't think bin laden cares whether bush or kerry wins. bush was tough after 9/11 and inflicted a serious blow to al qaeda by invading afganistan, but then he ****ed up the invasion of iraq and has isolated the US, while muslim hate towards america has been fed.

    i think bin laden was just hoping that his tape would have an effect on the polls and might throw the election one way or the other so that he could claim victory like in spain where the terrorist attack was seen as something that decided their last election.

    i think the tape is a sign of weakness though because that's all bin laden could manage before this election instead of an actual attack which i'm sure would have been his most desired alternative.

    -5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 5
    i don't think bin laden cares whether bush or kerry wins. bush was tough after 9/11 and inflicted a serious blow to al qaeda by invading afganistan, but then he ****ed up the invasion of iraq and has isolated the US, while muslim hate towards america has been fed.

    i think bin laden was just hoping that his tape would have an effect on the polls and might throw the election one way or the other so that he could claim victory like in spain where the terrorist attack was seen as something that decided their last election.

    i think the tape is a sign of weakness though because that's all bin laden could manage before this election instead of an actual attack which i'm sure would have been his most desired alternative.

    -5
    I gotta agree with you, at least mostly. I'm not sure about your last point, but it's a reasonable supposition. The argument that Bush makes about fighting them in Iraq so that we don't fight them here is a terrible post hoc excuse for the mess he's gotten us into, and it assumes that terrorism fighting is a zero-sum game, which it absolutely is not.

    What do you expect from someone as black-and-white as Bush is? He can't comprehend a non-zero-sum game. Of course, most of the people voting for him can't either.

    I don't think OBL really cares who's President, and he says as much in the tape; the timing just assured maximum media penetration.
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    It is important to notice what he has stopped saying in this speech. He has stopped talking about the restoration of the Global Caliphate. There is no more mention of the return of Andalusia. There is no more anticipation that Islam will sweep the world. He is no longer boasting that Americans run at the slightest wounds; that they are more cowardly than the Russians. He is not talking about future operations to swathe the world in fire but dwelling on past glories. He is basically saying if you leave us alone we will leave you alone. Though it is couched in his customary orbicular phraseology he is basically asking for time out.

    The American answer to Osama's proposal will be given on Election Day. One response is to agree that the United States of America will henceforth act like Sweden, which is on track to become majority Islamic sometime after the middle of this century. The electorate best knows which candidate will serve this end; which candidate most promises to be European-like in attitude and they can choose that path with both eyes open. The electorate can strike that bargain and Osama may keep his word. The other course is to reject Osama's terms utterly; to recognize the pleading in his outwardly belligerent manner and reply that his fugitive existence; the loss of his sanctuaries; the annihilation of his men are but the merest foretaste of what is yet to come: to say that to enemies such as he, the initials 'US' will always mean Unconditional Surrender.

    Osama has stated his terms. He awaits America's answer.
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    Read this link:
    Osama Bin Laden Tape Threatens U.S. States Not to Vote for Bush
    http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SA1404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff
    It is important to notice what he has stopped saying in this speech. He has stopped talking about the restoration of the Global Caliphate. There is no more mention of the return of Andalusia. There is no more anticipation that Islam will sweep the world. He is no longer boasting that Americans run at the slightest wounds; that they are more cowardly than the Russians. He is not talking about future operations to swathe the world in fire but dwelling on past glories. He is basically saying if you leave us alone we will leave you alone. Though it is couched in his customary orbicular phraseology he is basically asking for time out.

    The American answer to Osama's proposal will be given on Election Day. One response is to agree that the United States of America will henceforth act like Sweden, which is on track to become majority Islamic sometime after the middle of this century. The electorate best knows which candidate will serve this end; which candidate most promises to be European-like in attitude and they can choose that path with both eyes open. The electorate can strike that bargain and Osama may keep his word. The other course is to reject Osama's terms utterly; to recognize the pleading in his outwardly belligerent manner and reply that his fugitive existence; the loss of his sanctuaries; the annihilation of his men are but the merest foretaste of what is yet to come: to say that to enemies such as he, the initials 'US' will always mean Unconditional Surrender.

    Osama has stated his terms. He awaits America's answer.

    The interpretation if things left unsaid in one message is mightly presumptive.

    "We want to restore freedom to our Nation and just as you lay waste to our Nation so shall we lay waste to yours. " does not sound like a peace offering, now does it?

    It seems to me that you have your political agenda and you are making what OBL says fit it to your purposes. It's a lot easier to do that with what he doesn't say, isn't it? And he Swedish example? Why didn't he mention France instead? They have been sticking their finger in our eye far more than Sweden. They have the Muslim popuation and they stayed out of the coalition.

    Unconditional Surrender? You have to win something to demand that. After doing OK in Afghanistan (with Clinton's military I might add), we have made an atrocious mess of Iraq that we can neither control nor abandon for years to come. Our armed forces are pinned down and our enemies are taking full advantage of that.

    The Iranian Legislature was chanting "Death to America" just today. That's new- or wasn't heard there for decades before Dubya came along and demonized them. Big chunks of the population of the country were very pro-US until Bush painted them with "Axis of Evil" rhetoric. Now we've lost them for decades to come again. Or is the answer just to invade?

    Bush and his cronies have gotten us into deep ****, and we will be lucky to maintain our status as world military leader before it's all over. We have already lost our status as world moral leader.

    Unbridled arrogance is always self-destructive in the end. When an individual sees things too black and white- as all good or evil, they have what is known as Borderline Personality Disorder. They're the ****-stirrers of the world, causing those around them to divide into factions, using chaos wherever they go. They do horribly self-destructive things, all the while screaming that no one can tell them what to do. Yep. That's just what's happining inside our country and out these days.

    And the supposed Christians now in ascendancy who have seemed to have somewhere lost the docterine of looking at one's own sins before casting stones. I fear we risk becoming that which we have fought for two centuries.

    I do mourn.

    I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshiped by many who think themselves Christians.
    -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price from Paris, January 8, 1789.
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    Personally, I couldn't care less what he has to say. He's a terrorist and should be regarded as such. Arguing about what he may or may not have meant just somehow to me elevates him above his cowardly camel riding cave dwelling maggot status. And In case anyone forgot, it's been a long time before the world regarded us as a moral leader. Most of the world will always hate us because of our power, arrogance, and "freedom" anyway. It also amuses me how people expect an overnight "victory" on the war on terrorism. Terrorists are like roaches. It might take a decade or more to weed these bastards out. Whether or not you think we should've gone to Iraq or not, the fact that Saddam is gone is a big step in protecting ourselves. To think he would have never or has never helped the terrorists in some way harm Americans is foolish. So who gives a **** what the worlds Muslim community thinks about us being there. I don't hear them bitchin up a storm about innocent contractors being brutally beheaded on camera. Hate Bush if you want for going there, it's your right. I don't like everything he's done, but I'm glad my president at least had the balls to do SOMETHING to help keep this country safe.
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    In all, none of this matters. Neither Bush nor Kerry will change US policies in the Middle East in the way that would make Bin Laden not want to attack us. The **** that has pissed he and his ilk off has been happening for a long, long time. The US has been a prime player since Truman, through Republican and Democratic presidents. To the point as to whether or not the tape will affect the election, not in the way he would want, because as far as he's concerned it's all the same ****. All the debate about who the tape will benefit is created by US citizens trying to either give their candidate a leg up or to bash their candidate's opponent.

    I do however think Bin Laden is human, and like other humans is concerned with self preservation. Despite Kerry's rhetoric Bush would love to catch Bin Laden. While I think Bush is closer to his reality in assessing the threat terrorism poses to America, the way he's executed his response to that threat is questionable. Kerry won't change much, just go back to the Clinton years of sanctions against terrorist countries and the occasional trial here and there when we catch one.

    Terrorism is made up of two elements: crazy mother****ers and those who are pissed off enough at the US to follow the crazy mother****ers. Changing US policies in the Middle East, essentially pull out and let them deal with their own problems and just give some humanitarian aid here and there, would take care of the pissed off element for the most part. The crazy mother****ers will always be there, and always hate us and anyone else that catches their fancy. I mean we've got our own terrorists, McVeigh for example. Middle Eastern terrorists would be just as few and far between if we'd stop helping them recruit, but I've said it elsewhere in this particular forum and I'll say it again here: there is nothing special about Bush and his policies when it comes to this issue. It was the sanctions against Iraq and the US military presence on holy land that pissed of Bin Laden and his followers, those were maintained under Clinton, and Kerry will not have significantly different policies. There's little difference between Kerry's ideas and Bush's ideas on this subject. And both happen to be economic idiots as well, Bush a little less than Kerry but just by happenstance.

    As Americans we've essentially been shuffling the same **** in and out of the legislative and executive branches of our government for decades. Everyone's all passionate about this particular election. In the grand scheme of things it won't make a difference which one of them is in office, it's still going to be the same ****.

    So relax, pop a beer, unless you're on cycle of course, and live your life while you have the chance. That's what I'm doing. And when it's time to vote my vote won't go to either of these ****ing losers. My guy probably won't win, but a vote for someone I disagree with is an automatic loss for me anyway, so I might as well go for the hail Mary pass. At least my conscience is going to be clear the day after, because I know I did everything in my power to stop the DC **** Parade.
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    Good post CBD. I pretty much agree with most of it, especially the voting part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by INFOHAZARD
    The interpretation if things left unsaid in one message is mightly presumptive.
    "Any U.S. state that does not toy with our security automatically guarantees its own security.". Hmmm, didn't know fatwas could be conditional, and that OBL gave a crap before 911 who was a blue state and a red state. There is a definate change in this *******s tone.

    Quote Originally Posted by INFOHAZARD
    It seems to me that you have your political agenda and you are making what OBL says fit it to your purposes.
    Touche. Although the same could be said about you.

    Quote Originally Posted by INFOHAZARD
    we have made an atrocious mess of Iraq that we can neither control nor abandon for years to come.
    We have already been involved in Iraq for decades, I bet you didn't mind when clinton lobbed a couple of cruise missles into Iraq, Afganistan, aspring factories in Africa ....


    Quote Originally Posted by INFOHAZARD
    The Iranian Legislature was chanting "Death to America" just today. That's new- or wasn't heard there for decades before Dubya came along and demonized them. Big chunks of the population of the country were very pro-US until Bush painted them with "Axis of Evil" rhetoric. Now we've lost them for decades to come again. Or is the answer just to invade?
    Hasn't been heard for decades or hasn't been reported? As for losing the student protestors, I think not. October and September of this year have had some of the bloodiest aniregime street riots to date.
    http://www.daneshjoo.org/
    Last edited by Jeff; 11-01-2004 at 02:02 PM.
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    IF Osama had a vote, would you vote for the same candidate?
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    Quote Originally Posted by serengo
    IF Osama had a vote, would you vote for the same candidate?
    Good question. But if he was a lights out pass rusher, I'd want the Browns to draft him!
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    Quote Originally Posted by size
    Read this link:
    Osama Bin Laden Tape Threatens U.S. States Not to Vote for Bush
    http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SA1404
    Wait a minute? Doesn't that mean...well...INFOHAZARD couldn't possible be wrong, again, could he?

    He almost had me convinced I was building "straw men"

    When I said "he's freggin scared" I don't mean he's fearful of his life or anything like that. These are radicals who blow themselves up! It's just obvious that he's fearful Al Qaeda will not be as successful and will get increasingly disorganized. Al Qaeda is not in good shape and nobody knows that better than UBL. They're still capable of major attacks I'm sure, but they're being broken down as an organization. That's all there is to it...
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    Wait Kwyck, I think he meant people building straw men shouldn't throw glass houses while living in stones that are all in one basket that's worth a duck in the bush.
  

  
 

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