Election of 2012....Who ya got?
- 08-16-2011, 07:16 PM
I made far more money in the private sector, and at 5pm on friday went home and was thrilled. On Fridays now, all I wanna do is sleep. I am at work by 6:45am and on many days dont leave till after 4pm.
Are there those that take advantage? of course, but the same can be said of the private sector.
- 08-16-2011, 07:18 PM
08-16-2011, 07:47 PM
The problem is that he's a libertarian, and has been consistent his whole career. Nobody in the media likes that.Originally Posted by AE14
08-16-2011, 07:53 PM
The problem isn't individual teachers, its the special interest group of the teachers union as a whole. There are great individual teachers, many of whom deserve making more than they do. But there is a majority of mediocre teachers, and a significant portion that are a total drain on the system. Sadly of course, the worst tend to end up on the inner city schools, making the problems there worse.Originally Posted by AE14
Washington DC wanted to during raise negotiations offer teachers a choice. Accept the 4% raise, or only take a 1% raise but institute a merit based bonus system that could allow teachers to make as much as twice their current pay based on improvement in average student performance. The union officials disallowed it from even being brought to a vote
08-16-2011, 07:59 PM
08-16-2011, 08:00 PM
You do understand the major drawbacks for merit based pay and why it has never worked in education right?Originally Posted by EasyEJL
08-16-2011, 09:00 PM
I'd like to know when and where it was tried, as both have bearing. And I would not in the slightest put it past the union to purposefully sabotage it. But for the union to disallow the teachers to even vote on it shows the culture and character of the union officials.Originally Posted by AE14
08-16-2011, 09:02 PM
Interesting...hmmmmm, um...I forgot what I was going to say?!?
This message was paid for by the Russians
08-16-2011, 09:37 PM
08-16-2011, 09:41 PM
08-16-2011, 09:42 PM
Think of it as in the college setting if it helps. A lot of people in college don't go to class, don't study, and end up failing. A lot of people show up, study, and pass easily. The idea that we should pay the teacher/professor based on how the kids do on some test just doesn't work when you consider all the factors. Crap teachers with great kids would show progress and great teachers with crap kids might not even if they are doing a great job.
08-16-2011, 09:45 PM
08-16-2011, 09:46 PM
08-16-2011, 09:55 PM
You don't test vs generic averages, you test vs that same schools prior year performance. If that school's average for 5th graders was 20% reading at grade level, and in 6th grade you bring that up to 25%, that's a great improvement. If that school had 85% at grade level and you brought it to 90 that's great improvement. Any individual schools demographics don't change much year to year, so your argument is invalid. Saying "there's no good way to measure it" mostly means its primarily snake oil sales.Originally Posted by seccsi
08-16-2011, 09:55 PM
I don't know what that means. Public education has a lot of problems, but it's the only hope for a lot of kids. Ironically the right wants every kid to be born, but then doesn't give a crap what happens to them after that. I call them pro-birth. They want kids to be born, but after they are here **** em. Not on my tax dollar they say.
It's public educations job to try and do the job a lot of parents refuse to do. It's also most of those kids only chances. It is by no means perfect and I fully support changes that make sense. It isn't going anywhere because it isn't like a majority of Americans want to see education taken away. I would love to see a lot of its problems start to become fixed, and I could say that about anything to do with the government. As small government as I am I still believe in its LIMITED role.
Are you an ACist Ax? I used to visit a board with a lot of ACists and even though I disagreed with a lot of them, it was very enlightening discussion.
08-16-2011, 10:01 PM
The idea that you can design a test that measures exactly how good the teacher is doing is not something I buy in the least bit. I see kids who are all A's in junior high turn into high school dropouts. We get warned of problem kids all the time, and sometimes they come into high school and flourish. It's just too much variance to accurately say "this teacher is doing a great job and this test shows it was all them."
If designed properly I'd love merit pay, again I think that would drive my salary way up. I just don't think we know a foolproof way of doing it yet. Too much variance. I also don't see how you'd make it work for middle school and up, though it may be doable at the elementary level. It's much harder to judge my performance on merit when I'm one of 6 teachers a kid has. You can get a lot better gauge when kids have the one and same teacher all year.
08-17-2011, 07:17 AM
Some of the major reasons it doesnt work in education:
1. how do you judge success?
2. where does special ed fit in?
3. are tests scores the goal (if so, we see what happened with cheating scandals)
At the end of the day, it would be exceptionally difficult, even when using a portfolio based assessment as your gauge
08-17-2011, 07:19 AM
08-17-2011, 07:20 AM
08-17-2011, 09:14 AM
08-17-2011, 09:32 AM
now that he declared that he is running. I am putting all my support towards the "The Rent is Too Damn High" party.
08-17-2011, 11:23 AM
08-17-2011, 11:34 AM
I'll agree that designing something that is accurate would be difficult however teachers unions refusing to allow the conversation to begin, rather than them being a part of trying to put together a system that will work is outrageous.
The net gut feeling from parents is that the mediocre teachers are overpaid, and the good teacher are underpaid. My middle daughter had a kindergarten teacher last year who easily deserved twice her pay. It was a ton of factors, organizational skills, involving parents and students, communication, etc.
If you can't test for the success, then you can't measure it, and its not real. With merit based bonuses, cheating would get you bonuses for a year, but then your baseline target improvement would be higher the next year
08-17-2011, 01:25 PM
No good model has been created, and it certainly doesnt look like one is comnig
08-17-2011, 01:30 PM
How do you assess how good or bad a teacher is then? Is it just an art rather than a science? and we should expect teachers to self-evaluate?
Remember that with this specifically looking at how Washington DC attempted to implement it, there was no change in base pay, no relation to losing tenure, only bonuses for teachers (up to a bonus of 100% of salary) for performance. Why is that such a horrible thing?
And again, with unions refusing to even allow the conversation to happen, of course its hard to create a good model. If the union actually looked out for the teachers, rather than looking out for the union, they'd be actively engaged in trying to work out a good model.
08-17-2011, 01:39 PM
IMO, the only way to truly assess teachers is to refine tenure, not get rid of it. Make a portfolio for 3-5 years, and have colleagues and administrators who have observed the teacher sit down and review the portfolio. From their they make the recommendation for renewal of tenure, or dismissal. I totally agree that there are horrible teachers out there who completely take advantage of tenure. However, they are the minority, at least in my district.
I can tell you, from being in the meetings, that most administrators and teachers truly want whats best for the students and are willing to bend over backwards for them, and deal with all the issues that come with students and their parents
08-17-2011, 01:49 PM
And i have to disagree on administrators, particularly administrators who are school board level (not so much the in school admins) are useless bags of crap most of the time, and cause more issues with the feeling of "ownership" over the schools. One in our district on the school's facebook page has repeatedly posted "Please parents, don't make any postings on this page using a teacher's name or about a specific teacher" but at the same time the school board prohibits teachers from having a facebook page for school related. Plenty of other goofy things, we are having 1 hr early release every monday this year (same total school hours per year) but when asked if we could move it to friday instead, the school board administrators said that would significantly increase absenteeism and cause all sorts of problems. When I asked if he had some documentation showing that was actually true vs his opinion he just brushed it off and refused to answer.
08-17-2011, 02:35 PM
The issue with the bonuses is that it opens the doer for merit based pay. We have already seen the reopening and disgardig of collectively bargained contracts. Once again, the fear is that the precedent is set....you know the rest
08-17-2011, 02:38 PM
08-17-2011, 04:02 PM
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