Election of 2012....Who ya got?

[AE14]

I disagree. He tried to differentiate the two plenty of times.

And I think his platform would be very successful....Wisconsin showed that, even though Democrats and the media tried to portray the entire state against Walker....in the end, he won....and that union fight was MUCH more public than anything NJ had.

I disagree. He has specifically come out and called teachers lazy and selfish. He has also gone after cops and firefighters as well. Hell....he cut cops in Newark of all places

Walker and Christie are very different. Christie comes off as a bully. Walker is more polished (personality wise) imo

[Bolanrox]

does anyone really like Christie? at this point hasnt he pi$$ed off just about everyone in the state?

[EasyEJL]

does anyone really like Christie? at this point hasnt he pi$$ed off just about everyone in the state?

Right now most states as well as the federal government are faced with choices that require pissing off everyone. Deficit spending doesn't work in the long run, someone has to pay the bill eventually.

[vinnythestick]

In my experience serving in the federal government, and attending the ****e-y public schools that I did; I'm fairly confident in saying that a good number of people enjoying their guaranteed stipend, free health care, and 30 day vacations don't hunger for advancement. THEY'RE LAZY!! lol. And every military general knows he's getting a nice comfy chair as a board member somewhere. it's a system.

[Admin]

I disagree. He has specifically come out and called teachers lazy and selfish. He has also gone after cops and firefighters as well. Hell....he cut cops in Newark of all places

Walker and Christie are very different. Christie comes off as a bully. Walker is more polished (personality wise) imo

Sometimes the truth hurts. Some ARE lazy and selfish.

A bully is someone who picks on those less powerful.....the unions are by no means, less powerful.


The problem unions have, especially public employee unions, is the more you complain about your benefits and having to pay more into your retirement, the rest of the population within the private sector arent even sure they can keep their job. Until they realize that, they are on the losing side.

[AE14]

Sometimes the truth hurts. Some ARE lazy and selfish.

A bully is someone who picks on those less powerful.....the unions are by no means, less powerful.


The problem unions have, especially public employee unions, is the more you complain about your benefits and having to pay more into your retirement, the rest of the population within the private sector arent even sure they can keep their job. Until they realize that, they are on the losing side.

I agree, SOME are lazy and selfish, the same as in the private sector. However, as you and I know, to compare public and private sector jobs is ridiculous. At the end of the day, everyone has a choice about what field they want to go in, and to purposely go after those that chose a safer situation is silly. There is greater risk/reward in the private sector. However, the reason that many of us chose private sector jobs was the idea of security, to all of a sudden reopen collective bargaining sets a bad precedent imo. Hell, when things were going well, the unions did not ask to reopen and get more did they?

To assume that the unions have the sway as the governor and his cronies is ill advised, and his behavior is the quintessential bully routine. He looks downright foolish.

So keeping this on target with the topic, Christie will not run in 2012, and even if he did, he would not get far. Once his financial situation comes to the forefront (as well as the helicopter to his sons baseball game) he's done.

I am hopeful that the GOP comes up with someone of relevance that can make this a race, as I am itching to find someone to believe in. I dont think that person is there though.

[EasyEJL]

At the end of the day, everyone has a choice about what field they want to go in, and to purposely go after those that chose a safer situation is silly. There is greater risk/reward in the private sector. However, the reason that many of us chose private sector jobs was the idea of security, to all of a sudden reopen collective bargaining sets a bad precedent imo. Hell, when things were going well, the unions did not ask to reopen and get more did they?

Actually when a contract was set to expire soon, the unions very much played heavy handed with extracting maximum benefit. But you are wrong, there isn't both more risk + reward in the private sector, public sector employees are higher paid by education level than private sector, and paid higher per hour worked than public sector.... so they've gotten to where they have less risk, and more reward.

[Admin]

I agree, SOME are lazy and selfish, the same as in the private sector. However, as you and I know, to compare public and private sector jobs is ridiculous. At the end of the day, everyone has a choice about what field they want to go in, and to purposely go after those that chose a safer situation is silly. There is greater risk/reward in the private sector. However, the reason that many of us chose private sector jobs was the idea of security, to all of a sudden reopen collective bargaining sets a bad precedent imo. Hell, when things were going well, the unions did not ask to reopen and get more did they?

In the private sector, its very easy to fire employees. As a teacher in NJ, its not....there is a major difference.

To assume that the unions have the sway as the governor and his cronies is ill advised, and his behavior is the quintessential bully routine. He looks downright foolish.

Actually they did in the past...And he looks good to a LOT of people. Some people think the unions need to get bullied around.

So keeping this on target with the topic, Christie will not run in 2012, and even if he did, he would not get far. Once his financial situation comes to the forefront (as well as the helicopter to his sons baseball game) he's done.

Nobody cares about his finances....as was the case with Obama....and nobody cares about the helicopter incident...except people who want to make it an issue and would never vote for him anyway. Most of the public could care less.

I am hopeful that the GOP comes up with someone of relevance that can make this a race, as I am itching to find someone to believe in. I dont think that person is there though.

Nope..they won't. Romney is a pure politician and Bachman and Perry are both idiots.

[AE14]

Actually when a contract was set to expire soon, the unions very much played heavy handed with extracting maximum benefit. But you are wrong, there isn't both more risk + reward in the private sector, public sector employees are higher paid by education level than private sector, and paid higher per hour worked than public sector.... so they've gotten to where they have less risk, and more reward.

This is wrong. I get paid far less with 2 masters degrees than if I was inure private sector.

On your example, what happened when the unions played games? Nothing until it expired. That's why what the governor did was legally wrong.

[EasyEJL]

This is wrong. I get paid far less with 2 masters degrees than if I was inure private sector.

not than you would doing the same job in the private sector. Moreso than for educators, i'm talking about just high school graduates working in the public sector though. From the US Dept of Labor

Total employer compensation costs for private industry workers averaged $28.10 per
hour worked in March 2011. Total employer compensation costs for State and local government
workers averaged $40.54 per hour worked in March 2011.

On your example, what happened when the unions played games? Nothing until it expired. That's why what the governor did was legally wrong.[/QUOTE]

The other option was for the state to declare bankruptcy, rendering all labor contracts null and void then renegotiating from nothing. It was good enough for Obama to do with GM, including stealing money from the bondholders to give to the unions, why isn't it good enough to be used the other way around?

[seccsi]

In the private sector, its very easy to fire employees. As a teacher in NJ, its not....there is a major difference.

Agreed, but I'm a teacher and you need to know part of the reason for things like tenure. Look it IS too hard to get rid of crap teachers, but it's also arguably too easy to get rid of them before tenure. Take me for example, before tenure I could basically be fired if a parent had a significant beef with me or a board member (and I teach at a small school so pissing off a board member enough would be like a death sentence). You don't face that in the private sector. Generally speaking if you do a good job you will keep your job (unless the company goes under). You won't have a board member with an agenda (he gave Johnny a D) or a parent with an agenda colluding with the board member.

Until the crap system that is school boards running schools is changed then something like tenure is all but going to be necessary. Does it protect some crap teachers? Certainly and it's a crying shame. But it also has kept some of the best teachers ever teaching. Comparing teaching to the private sector is foolish, they have little in common. Keep in mind doctors and lawyers answer to other doctors and lawyers. Teachers answer to citizens who usually have never taught and who often have an agenda.

Small schools (enrollment around 600 or less) in Kansas generally have 7 board members all of whom usually have agendas. They only run while their kid is in high school, and the vast majority of them have never taught. It isn't anywhere near like the private sector.

Granted I haven't followed nor know or care about the situation in New Jersey. I did find it sort of ironic that Christie said teachers should have taken a salary freeze to be part of the "shared sacrifice", but doesn't he usually clamor against Obama when he talks of shared sacrifice? The hypocrisy of politicians is sometimes mind numbing.

[seccsi]

As far as unions go I'm mixed. I'll admit we have a lot of problems stemming from some of them, but let's not forget many of us take for granted things unions gave us. I'm talking safety in the workplace, a 40 hour work week, paid vacation, etc. I'm not saying that they aren't filled with their share of issues, but let's not forget that a lot of us are significantly benefiting from actions in the past by organized workers. We could still have children working 18 hour days if not for some of the actions of organized workers.

Another thing is as far as I'm aware here the public employees don't have anything that legislators didn't put into law. So to act like they are hijacking it at least here is not really accurate. Shockingly I hear legislators here talking about changing my pension, but I don't hear them talking about changing the pension they have.


I don't really want to get into the union debate, because a lot of it depends on what union we are talking about and acting as if they are all the same is pretty pointless.

[seccsi]

Triple post what

Total employer compensation costs for private industry workers averaged $28.10 per
hour worked in March 2011. Total employer compensation costs for State and local government
workers averaged $40.54 per hour worked in March 2011.

This is pretty misleading. Almost 46 percent of the workers in the private sector have no more than a high school diploma while almost half of the public sector workers have at least a college degree. Your statistics don't mean anything as far as proving his assertion that he would make more in the private sector (though arguably neither would mine as obviously it clearly depends on where he works). I think his point is that the average ceiling is much higher in the private sector for someone as highly educated as himself.

[vinnythestick]

Small schools (enrollment around 600 or less) in Kansas generally have 7 board members all of whom usually have agendas. They only run while their kid is in high school, and the vast majority of them have never taught. It isn't anywhere near like the private sector.

Then why teach? Why work in such a flawed system? Teachers represent the future of the country! In a situation in which I knew my job could be put at risk by someone with an 'agenda', I would leave. This is the reason the public sector is lazy, because there is no pressure. Public sector doesn't have to create a profit, they just need to balance the checkbook. Thats it. Work with a budget. So the senior management is getting baited by business entities, and they just do whatever to stay out of the newspaper, but so long as the money they use this year is in the budget, then they consider themselves god's gift to earth.

So senior management is lazy, and junior management just falls in line.

You are perpetuating a broken system. By dealing with it, you enable it. Simple.

The US military is probably the most wasteful business entity there is. They have been deemed unauditable for several years now, if I read correctly. But they say "oh my god we die for you" and no one complains about them, no one can.

The structure of the public system enables mediocre success, but I think Christy isn't getting himself anywhere speaking like that.

[EasyEJL]

Take me for example, before tenure I could basically be fired if a parent had a significant beef with me or a board member (and I teach at a small school so pissing off a board member enough would be like a death sentence). You don't face that in the private sector. Generally speaking if you do a good job you will keep your job (unless the company goes under).

Full of incorrect In the private sector, most states have a 90 day probation period - they can fire you for no reason, no recourse for you, no unemployment. Even beyond that, they can fire you for no reason, employment is at will by both parties. Sure you may still be eligible for unemployment but big whoop. And the politics or a pissed off customer are reason enough to fire someone. And who was having the layoffs during the last 5 years? Not public sector employees. Since 2004, total number of federal government employees has grown from 4.1 million to almost 4.5 million, while the private sector has lost jobs. Not sure about state and local though, I can't find anyone who collates them all.

Tenure occurs far too soon. Perhaps it made sense at the 10 year mark, but 2 years out of college having a job for life (with non contributory pension) unless you ritually sacrifice a child during class is ridiculous.

[seccsi]

Full of incorrect In the private sector, most states have a 90 day probation period - they can fire you for no reason, no recourse for you, no unemployment. Even beyond that, they can fire you for no reason, employment is at will by both parties. Sure you may still be eligible for unemployment but big whoop. And the politics or a pissed off customer are reason enough to fire someone. And who was having the layoffs during the last 5 years? Not public sector employees. Since 2004, total number of federal government employees has grown from 4.1 million to almost 4.5 million, while the private sector has lost jobs. Not sure about state and local though, I can't find anyone who collates them all.

Tenure occurs far too soon. Perhaps it made sense at the 10 year mark, but 2 years out of college having a job for life (with non contributory pension) unless you ritually sacrifice a child during class is ridiculous.

Buzz, ding, wrong How many private sector people are firing people who do a great job because of a parent? How many private sector people are firing people because a school board member is mad? Generally speaking if you do a great job in the private sector you will have a job (assuming the company doesn't go under). Sure a boss can fire you for any reason, but the purpose of tenure is to protect the unique nature of the teaching job. And it's usually three years. People bitch about tenure, but it's necessary in a flawed system with school board. Its too difficult to get rid of bad teachers, but let's not act as if the private and public sector are the same in regards to teaching.

Also it isn't true that teachers have a job for life after 2 (actually three years). You can still get fired for many reasons. Agreed that it is more difficult than it should be (usually) to get rid of crap ones. But part of that is because it is difficult to gauge exactly what makes a good teacher in measurable terms.

Am I in an alternate reality? Where is all this non contributory pension? Mine certainly isn't, in fact I pay more than my legislators and yet they receive more when they retire. Where are these ideas that big businesses don't hire illegals? Where are all these false ideas coming from? Honestly I don't know where you guys get some of these falsehoods from. Only 31% of public sector employees belong to a union, and pensions average 2.9 percent of state funding according to figures.

[seccsi]

Then why teach? Why work in such a flawed system? Teachers represent the future of the country! In a situation in which I knew my job could be put at risk by someone with an 'agenda', I would leave. This is the reason the public sector is lazy, because there is no pressure. Public sector doesn't have to create a profit, they just need to balance the checkbook. Thats it. Work with a budget. So the senior management is getting baited by business entities, and they just do whatever to stay out of the newspaper, but so long as the money they use this year is in the budget, then they consider themselves god's gift to earth.

So senior management is lazy, and junior management just falls in line.

You are perpetuating a broken system. By dealing with it, you enable it. Simple.

The US military is probably the most wasteful business entity there is. They have been deemed unauditable for several years now, if I read correctly. But they say "oh my god we die for you" and no one complains about them, no one can.

The structure of the public system enables mediocre success, but I think Christy isn't getting himself anywhere speaking like that.

I don't know what you do, but I'm pretty sure a lot of systems are flawed. This would be like saying why work at Microsoft because you disagree with the amount of breaks. I teach because I want to teach and I coach because I want to coach. It's what I choose for my career and despite all the flaws I love my job for the most part. I generally look forward to going to work all the time. I'm in a unique position to shape young people's lives. Yeah a lot of things are messed up about it, but anytime you try to educate the entire nation the system is going to be messed up to some extent.

Unlike businesses I can't get rid of bad product. I can't tell a kid from a broken home to go to hell. I can't not teach a kid because he isn't as smart as others. We have a lot of things wrong with public education, but I wouldn't give up my job for anything in the world. I love it.

And you really show your complete bias by talking about the public sector being lazy. You know how many people work in the public sector? This would be like saying all auto mechanics are lazy because you know of one. I would put the hour I work during the year up against almost anyone. With football now I'm going to work at least 12 hours a day usually 6 days a week. I'm practicing basketball during Christmas break. I'm watching game tape on Sundays. I'm doing my lesson plans Sunday afternoon because I'm too busy to do them during the week.

The VAST majority of people in the private or public sector couldn't keep up with me. I have tons of friends working "private sector" jobs who marvel at the amount I work. And you want to talk about me being lazy? You can feel free to keep your myths going (hell other people do), but it doesn't make them true in the least bit. I would love to have the salary and hours of many of my "private sector" friends.

Yet I wouldn't assume just because I know some private sector people who work less than me that all private sector people work less than me or aren't hard working. Then again I know the problems with making large scale generalizations so I don't do it.

[AE14]

Triple post what



This is pretty misleading. Almost 46 percent of the workers in the private sector have no more than a high school diploma while almost half of the public sector workers have at least a college degree. Your statistics don't mean anything as far as proving his assertion that he would make more in the private sector (though arguably neither would mine as obviously it clearly depends on where he works). I think his point is that the average ceiling is much higher in the private sector for someone as highly educated as himself.

The ceiling is much higher in the private sector. I used to work in the private sector and in my mid 20s made more than I did teaching in my 30's. That has now changed since I am in admin. However, I made the switch for the security purpose, as I knew the private sector could be uncertain

[AE14]

Full of incorrect In the private sector, most states have a 90 day probation period - they can fire you for no reason, no recourse for you, no unemployment. Even beyond that, they can fire you for no reason, employment is at will by both parties. Sure you may still be eligible for unemployment but big whoop. And the politics or a pissed off customer are reason enough to fire someone. And who was having the layoffs during the last 5 years? Not public sector employees. Since 2004, total number of federal government employees has grown from 4.1 million to almost 4.5 million, while the private sector has lost jobs. Not sure about state and local though, I can't find anyone who collates them all.

Tenure occurs far too soon. Perhaps it made sense at the 10 year mark, but 2 years out of college having a job for life (with non contributory pension) unless you ritually sacrifice a child during class is ridiculous.

Tenure is dependent on the state. Most states are between 3-5 years (at least in the NE). That is a huge difference from 90 days

[EasyEJL]

Tenure is dependent on the state. Most states are between 3-5 years (at least in the NE). That is a huge difference from 90 days

But in the private sector you can still without cause be laid off at any time, just after 90 days you are eligible for unemployment. And seccsi seems to want to make up reality here that the private sector jobs ate normally for life too, apparently never having worked in the private sector and ignoring what's happened to US employment the last 5 years. Once a teacher hits tenure its a real job for life, with virtually no chance of firing unless they go to jail for something