Election of 2012....Who ya got?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Admin View Post
    In the private sector, its very easy to fire employees. As a teacher in NJ, its not....there is a major difference.
    Agreed, but I'm a teacher and you need to know part of the reason for things like tenure. Look it IS too hard to get rid of crap teachers, but it's also arguably too easy to get rid of them before tenure. Take me for example, before tenure I could basically be fired if a parent had a significant beef with me or a board member (and I teach at a small school so pissing off a board member enough would be like a death sentence). You don't face that in the private sector. Generally speaking if you do a good job you will keep your job (unless the company goes under). You won't have a board member with an agenda (he gave Johnny a D) or a parent with an agenda colluding with the board member.

    Until the crap system that is school boards running schools is changed then something like tenure is all but going to be necessary. Does it protect some crap teachers? Certainly and it's a crying shame. But it also has kept some of the best teachers ever teaching. Comparing teaching to the private sector is foolish, they have little in common. Keep in mind doctors and lawyers answer to other doctors and lawyers. Teachers answer to citizens who usually have never taught and who often have an agenda.

    Small schools (enrollment around 600 or less) in Kansas generally have 7 board members all of whom usually have agendas. They only run while their kid is in high school, and the vast majority of them have never taught. It isn't anywhere near like the private sector.

    Granted I haven't followed nor know or care about the situation in New Jersey. I did find it sort of ironic that Christie said teachers should have taken a salary freeze to be part of the "shared sacrifice", but doesn't he usually clamor against Obama when he talks of shared sacrifice? The hypocrisy of politicians is sometimes mind numbing.


  2. As far as unions go I'm mixed. I'll admit we have a lot of problems stemming from some of them, but let's not forget many of us take for granted things unions gave us. I'm talking safety in the workplace, a 40 hour work week, paid vacation, etc. I'm not saying that they aren't filled with their share of issues, but let's not forget that a lot of us are significantly benefiting from actions in the past by organized workers. We could still have children working 18 hour days if not for some of the actions of organized workers.

    Another thing is as far as I'm aware here the public employees don't have anything that legislators didn't put into law. So to act like they are hijacking it at least here is not really accurate. Shockingly I hear legislators here talking about changing my pension, but I don't hear them talking about changing the pension they have.


    I don't really want to get into the union debate, because a lot of it depends on what union we are talking about and acting as if they are all the same is pretty pointless.
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  3. Triple post what

    Total employer compensation costs for private industry workers averaged $28.10 per
    hour worked in March 2011. Total employer compensation costs for State and local government
    workers averaged $40.54 per hour worked in March 2011.
    This is pretty misleading. Almost 46 percent of the workers in the private sector have no more than a high school diploma while almost half of the public sector workers have at least a college degree. Your statistics don't mean anything as far as proving his assertion that he would make more in the private sector (though arguably neither would mine as obviously it clearly depends on where he works). I think his point is that the average ceiling is much higher in the private sector for someone as highly educated as himself.

  4. Small schools (enrollment around 600 or less) in Kansas generally have 7 board members all of whom usually have agendas. They only run while their kid is in high school, and the vast majority of them have never taught. It isn't anywhere near like the private sector.
    Then why teach? Why work in such a flawed system? Teachers represent the future of the country! In a situation in which I knew my job could be put at risk by someone with an 'agenda', I would leave. This is the reason the public sector is lazy, because there is no pressure. Public sector doesn't have to create a profit, they just need to balance the checkbook. Thats it. Work with a budget. So the senior management is getting baited by business entities, and they just do whatever to stay out of the newspaper, but so long as the money they use this year is in the budget, then they consider themselves god's gift to earth.

    So senior management is lazy, and junior management just falls in line.

    You are perpetuating a broken system. By dealing with it, you enable it. Simple.

    The US military is probably the most wasteful business entity there is. They have been deemed unauditable for several years now, if I read correctly. But they say "oh my god we die for you" and no one complains about them, no one can.

    The structure of the public system enables mediocre success, but I think Christy isn't getting himself anywhere speaking like that.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    Take me for example, before tenure I could basically be fired if a parent had a significant beef with me or a board member (and I teach at a small school so pissing off a board member enough would be like a death sentence). You don't face that in the private sector. Generally speaking if you do a good job you will keep your job (unless the company goes under).
    Full of incorrect In the private sector, most states have a 90 day probation period - they can fire you for no reason, no recourse for you, no unemployment. Even beyond that, they can fire you for no reason, employment is at will by both parties. Sure you may still be eligible for unemployment but big whoop. And the politics or a pissed off customer are reason enough to fire someone. And who was having the layoffs during the last 5 years? Not public sector employees. Since 2004, total number of federal government employees has grown from 4.1 million to almost 4.5 million, while the private sector has lost jobs. Not sure about state and local though, I can't find anyone who collates them all.

    Tenure occurs far too soon. Perhaps it made sense at the 10 year mark, but 2 years out of college having a job for life (with non contributory pension) unless you ritually sacrifice a child during class is ridiculous.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Full of incorrect In the private sector, most states have a 90 day probation period - they can fire you for no reason, no recourse for you, no unemployment. Even beyond that, they can fire you for no reason, employment is at will by both parties. Sure you may still be eligible for unemployment but big whoop. And the politics or a pissed off customer are reason enough to fire someone. And who was having the layoffs during the last 5 years? Not public sector employees. Since 2004, total number of federal government employees has grown from 4.1 million to almost 4.5 million, while the private sector has lost jobs. Not sure about state and local though, I can't find anyone who collates them all.

    Tenure occurs far too soon. Perhaps it made sense at the 10 year mark, but 2 years out of college having a job for life (with non contributory pension) unless you ritually sacrifice a child during class is ridiculous.
    Buzz, ding, wrong How many private sector people are firing people who do a great job because of a parent? How many private sector people are firing people because a school board member is mad? Generally speaking if you do a great job in the private sector you will have a job (assuming the company doesn't go under). Sure a boss can fire you for any reason, but the purpose of tenure is to protect the unique nature of the teaching job. And it's usually three years. People bitch about tenure, but it's necessary in a flawed system with school board. Its too difficult to get rid of bad teachers, but let's not act as if the private and public sector are the same in regards to teaching.

    Also it isn't true that teachers have a job for life after 2 (actually three years). You can still get fired for many reasons. Agreed that it is more difficult than it should be (usually) to get rid of crap ones. But part of that is because it is difficult to gauge exactly what makes a good teacher in measurable terms.

    Am I in an alternate reality? Where is all this non contributory pension? Mine certainly isn't, in fact I pay more than my legislators and yet they receive more when they retire. Where are these ideas that big businesses don't hire illegals? Where are all these false ideas coming from? Honestly I don't know where you guys get some of these falsehoods from. Only 31% of public sector employees belong to a union, and pensions average 2.9 percent of state funding according to figures.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by vinnythestick View Post
    Then why teach? Why work in such a flawed system? Teachers represent the future of the country! In a situation in which I knew my job could be put at risk by someone with an 'agenda', I would leave. This is the reason the public sector is lazy, because there is no pressure. Public sector doesn't have to create a profit, they just need to balance the checkbook. Thats it. Work with a budget. So the senior management is getting baited by business entities, and they just do whatever to stay out of the newspaper, but so long as the money they use this year is in the budget, then they consider themselves god's gift to earth.

    So senior management is lazy, and junior management just falls in line.

    You are perpetuating a broken system. By dealing with it, you enable it. Simple.

    The US military is probably the most wasteful business entity there is. They have been deemed unauditable for several years now, if I read correctly. But they say "oh my god we die for you" and no one complains about them, no one can.

    The structure of the public system enables mediocre success, but I think Christy isn't getting himself anywhere speaking like that.
    I don't know what you do, but I'm pretty sure a lot of systems are flawed. This would be like saying why work at Microsoft because you disagree with the amount of breaks. I teach because I want to teach and I coach because I want to coach. It's what I choose for my career and despite all the flaws I love my job for the most part. I generally look forward to going to work all the time. I'm in a unique position to shape young people's lives. Yeah a lot of things are messed up about it, but anytime you try to educate the entire nation the system is going to be messed up to some extent.

    Unlike businesses I can't get rid of bad product. I can't tell a kid from a broken home to go to hell. I can't not teach a kid because he isn't as smart as others. We have a lot of things wrong with public education, but I wouldn't give up my job for anything in the world. I love it.

    And you really show your complete bias by talking about the public sector being lazy. You know how many people work in the public sector? This would be like saying all auto mechanics are lazy because you know of one. I would put the hour I work during the year up against almost anyone. With football now I'm going to work at least 12 hours a day usually 6 days a week. I'm practicing basketball during Christmas break. I'm watching game tape on Sundays. I'm doing my lesson plans Sunday afternoon because I'm too busy to do them during the week.

    The VAST majority of people in the private or public sector couldn't keep up with me. I have tons of friends working "private sector" jobs who marvel at the amount I work. And you want to talk about me being lazy? You can feel free to keep your myths going (hell other people do), but it doesn't make them true in the least bit. I would love to have the salary and hours of many of my "private sector" friends.

    Yet I wouldn't assume just because I know some private sector people who work less than me that all private sector people work less than me or aren't hard working. Then again I know the problems with making large scale generalizations so I don't do it.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    Triple post what



    This is pretty misleading. Almost 46 percent of the workers in the private sector have no more than a high school diploma while almost half of the public sector workers have at least a college degree. Your statistics don't mean anything as far as proving his assertion that he would make more in the private sector (though arguably neither would mine as obviously it clearly depends on where he works). I think his point is that the average ceiling is much higher in the private sector for someone as highly educated as himself.
    The ceiling is much higher in the private sector. I used to work in the private sector and in my mid 20s made more than I did teaching in my 30's. That has now changed since I am in admin. However, I made the switch for the security purpose, as I knew the private sector could be uncertain

  9. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Full of incorrect In the private sector, most states have a 90 day probation period - they can fire you for no reason, no recourse for you, no unemployment. Even beyond that, they can fire you for no reason, employment is at will by both parties. Sure you may still be eligible for unemployment but big whoop. And the politics or a pissed off customer are reason enough to fire someone. And who was having the layoffs during the last 5 years? Not public sector employees. Since 2004, total number of federal government employees has grown from 4.1 million to almost 4.5 million, while the private sector has lost jobs. Not sure about state and local though, I can't find anyone who collates them all.

    Tenure occurs far too soon. Perhaps it made sense at the 10 year mark, but 2 years out of college having a job for life (with non contributory pension) unless you ritually sacrifice a child during class is ridiculous.
    Tenure is dependent on the state. Most states are between 3-5 years (at least in the NE). That is a huge difference from 90 days

  10. Quote Originally Posted by AE14
    Tenure is dependent on the state. Most states are between 3-5 years (at least in the NE). That is a huge difference from 90 days
    But in the private sector you can still without cause be laid off at any time, just after 90 days you are eligible for unemployment. And seccsi seems to want to make up reality here that the private sector jobs ate normally for life too, apparently never having worked in the private sector and ignoring what's happened to US employment the last 5 years. Once a teacher hits tenure its a real job for life, with virtually no chance of firing unless they go to jail for something

  11. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    But in the private sector you can still without cause be laid off at any time, just after 90 days you are eligible for unemployment. And seccsi seems to want to make up reality here that the private sector jobs ate normally for life too, apparently never having worked in the private sector and ignoring what's happened to US employment the last 5 years. Once a teacher hits tenure its a real job for life, with virtually no chance of firing unless they go to jail for something
    I never said private sector jobs are normally for life. I said for the most part you won't get fired for reasons like making a parent mad or a board member with an agenda. Obviously you can get fired because the business isn't doing well or needs to cut (Guess what that has happened in education big time as well lately, even tenured teachers).

    Again my whole point was the reason you have tenure is because of the unique situation teachers find themselves in. It is designed to protect them from those ways of getting fired I mentioned. And you don't have that in the private sector. And I've worked in the private sector thank you very much. In fact this is my first public sector job. When I was in the private sector I never feared a decision I made might cost me my job because it pissed a parent off.
  12. Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    I never said private sector jobs are normally for life. I said for the most part you won't get fired for reasons like making a parent mad or a board member with an agenda. Obviously you can get fired because the business isn't doing well or needs to cut (Guess what that has happened in education big time as well lately, even tenured teachers).
    And so they should....but sorry I don't see the massive layoffs of teachers....the number of jobs lost in the private sector vs. public sector jobs isn't in the same ballpark, or league, or universe for that matter.


    Again my whole point was the reason you have tenure is because of the unique situation teachers find themselves in. It is designed to protect them from those ways of getting fired I mentioned. And you don't have that in the private sector. And I've worked in the private sector thank you very much. In fact this is my first public sector job. When I was in the private sector I never feared a decision I made might cost me my job because it pissed a parent off.

    There is no reason on this earth that justifies a lifetime job with public funds....

    You should get tenure because you "might" get fired from a parent complaining? Please....



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  13. Quote Originally Posted by Admin View Post
    And so they should....but sorry I don't see the massive layoffs of teachers....the number of jobs lost in the private sector vs. public sector jobs isn't in the same ballpark, or league, or universe for that matter.

    There is no reason on this earth that justifies a lifetime job with public funds....

    You should get tenure because you "might" get fired from a parent complaining? Please....
    I don't see why the first point is relevant. Should the number of jobs lost or gained be equal? My compensation for degree level is certainly much lower than expected in the private sector, but I'm not complaining because it should be equal. Teachers have lost their jobs during the down economy just as people in the private sector has. If you want to blame society for still needing first grade teachers even when the economy is doing poorly, go ahead. It isn't apples to apples though in the least bit.

    As for the second point a lot is wrong with the tenure system, and I've never argued otherwise. The idea that it is a lifetime job is pretty sketchy at best. Many teachers are terminated before tenure and teachers are terminated with tenure. If the system of school boards and influence from things like parents wasn't so flawed then you wouldn't need tenure. Because of that broken system it's a protection against agendas. I'm all for getting rid of the school board system which would probably lessen the need for tenure.

    I'd trade my tenure in a second for real bonuses, raises, and a higher salary. But a lot is wrong with the public school systems and the fixes aren't even close to easy which is why people always argue about what to do.

  14. IMO, the reason this country has gone to crap is because of its moral degeneration. Too much greed, no accountability. I'm not saying religious leaders will do any better, but someone with unwavering standards to be upright and someone who cares more about having a morally sound country will be a far better fit for leadership than someone who isn't. And right now, the guy that follows New Testament/ New Covenant Biblical guidance (not a religious prick) to me seems to be what we really need. There is a directly proportional curve with moral/spiritual decay and the downfall of this country's safety and economic growth. We have altogether gone away from what we were founded upon- what works. Yet there are too many people who get bent out of shape when someone else throws some good old-fashoined accountability out there. I think its funny that Americans hate the idea of Biblical teachings yet 80% of the country claims to be Christian. And I hear of so many people that are scared of anyone who takes a spiritual approach on the matter. Strangely, "the man after God's own heart" would actually have everyone else's interest in mind over his own, in other words - selfless. This country is so confused when it comes to religion, spiritual comprehension and politics. Due to his track record and background, I think Obama will run it further into the ground. And I hate that instead of being responsible with his actions he would rather throw the blame on GOP and pretty much everyone but himself. Such a coward..at least admit to your faults and learn from them. I want to see a president and administration that walks the straight and narrow. Someone above reproach.

  15. I also don't see the hate for teachers period. Some of you are acting like it's some sort of gravy train where we get paid tons of money, don't have to work, have lifetime jobs and then have some sweet retirement on a yacht. In Kansas where I work we have about 60 teachers. No one I know has a vacation home and the majority of us drive crap cars. We put up with bull**** from parents and kids all the time. I'm constantly busy. And I started out at 32,000. I don't know where these fantasy dreams about people with my life come from, but I can assure you at least in the state of Kanas the gravy train isn't running.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    I also don't see the hate for teachers period. Some of you are acting like it's some sort of gravy train where we get paid tons of money, don't have to work, have lifetime jobs and then have some sweet retirement on a yacht. In Kansas where I work we have about 60 teachers. No one I know has a vacation home and the majority of us drive crap cars. We put up with bull**** from parents and kids all the time. I'm constantly busy. And I started out at 32,000. I don't know where these fantasy dreams about people with my life come from, but I can assure you at least in the state of Kanas the gravy train isn't running.
    The average American worker:
    52 weeks x 5 Days/week = 260 Days
    4 weeks vacation/year = -16 Days*
    10 holidays/year= -10
    3 sick days/year= -3
    3 personal days/year= -3
    Total days worked 228 Days/ year
    * 4 weeks vacation AFTER 4-5 years of employment
    Work day is 8 hours WORK with 1/2 hr. unpaid lunch and 2/15 minutes break/day

    The average teacher:
    School year = 180 days
    14 Holidays/year= -14
    5 personal days/year= -5
    7 Sick days/year- -7
    ? Vacation days/year= ? *
    Total days worked 154 Days/ year

    so 32,000 / 154 = 207.79. That same money as per private industry # of working days = $47,376

  17. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    IMO, the reason this country has gone to crap is because of its moral degeneration. Too much greed, no accountability. I'm not saying religious leaders will do any better, but someone with unwavering standards to be upright and someone who cares more about having a morally sound country will be a far better fit for leadership than someone who isn't. And right now, the guy that follows New Testament/ New Covenant Biblical guidance (not a religious prick) to me seems to be what we really need. There is a directly proportional curve with moral/spiritual decay and the downfall of this country's safety and economic growth. We have altogether gone away from what we were founded upon- what works. Yet there are too many people who get bent out of shape when someone else throws some good old-fashoined accountability out there. I think its funny that Americans hate the idea of Biblical teachings yet 80% of the country claims to be Christian. And I hear of so many people that are scared of anyone who takes a spiritual approach on the matter. Strangely, "the man after God's own heart" would actually have everyone else's interest in mind over his own, in other words - selfless. This country is so confused when it comes to religion, spiritual comprehension and politics. Due to his track record and background, I think Obama will run it further into the ground. And I hate that instead of being responsible with his actions he would rather throw the blame on GOP and pretty much everyone but himself. Such a coward..at least admit to your faults and learn from them. I want to see a president and administration that walks the straight and narrow. Someone above reproach.
    Why are atheists under-represented in prison populations? The crime rate decreased even as church attendance decreased. The last thing I want in office is some theocrat taking away everyone's liberties in the name of the Lord. Persecuting people who are different from them or believe in something different. I have no problem with my President being a religious man, but we need one that shoves it down your throat like I need a third eye.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    so 32,000 / 154 = 207.79. That same money as per private industry # of working days = $47,376
    This works out perfectly because I NEVER work on weekends, never take home anything to grade, never lesson plan at home, never go to conferences in the summer, never go to school plays on the weekend or school dances, never have kids call and ask for help on the weekend, etc. It is literally EXACTLY as those numbers paint it.

    Again I'd put my hours worked up against damn near anybody. I'd put my days as well. Those are our contract days, the idea that the job doesn't require anything outside of contract time is hilarious. Yes it's so cushy. I'm typing this from my 400,000 dollar home and getting ready to go gas up my Ferrari. Why are you guys not teachers? I mean it's so cushy.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    This works out perfectly because I NEVER work on weekends, never take home anything to grade, never lesson plan at home, never go to conferences in the summer, never go to school plays on the weekend or school dances, never have kids call and ask for help on the weekend, etc. It is literally EXACTLY as those numbers paint it.

    Again I'd put my hours worked up against damn near anybody. I'd put my days as well. Those are our contract days, the idea that the job doesn't require anything outside of contract time is hilarious.
    Right, and private industry doesn't do the same thing? as well as expect 50+ hour weeks, etc? And you wonder with arguments like that why people have no sympathy for teachers.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Right, and private industry doesn't do the same thing? as well as expect 50+ hour weeks, etc? And you wonder with arguments like that why people have no sympathy for teachers.
    When did I say that? I don't really give a **** if people have sympathy for me or not, I don't need it. You're the one claiming teachers don't do that with your little numbers. Once again more "stats" of yours that don't tell any part of the story like the ones you tried to provide earlier about pay.

    I know I work my ass off a lot for minimal pay. I know all my coworkers aren't living high on the hog. I'm just not really sure why some people seem to despise us so much. It isn't like its hard to get a teaching job. How come more people aren't breaking down the doors? Could it be because all of my friends with degrees wouldn't change places with me?

    I mean if everyone has this idea that teaching is a glory gig that pays great and you'll live a life of luxury good news we have plenty of jobs open.

    Now if you'll excuse me I have to go lesson plan. I can't make 28,000 posts because I'm pretty damn busy with my job.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    When did I say that? I don't really give a **** if people have sympathy for me or not, I don't need it. You're the one claiming teachers don't do that with your little numbers. Once again more "stats" of yours that don't tell any part of the story like the ones you tried to provide earlier about pay.

    I know I work my ass off a lot for minimal pay. I know all my coworkers aren't living high on the hog. I'm just not really sure why some people seem to despise us so much. It isn't like its hard to get a teaching job. How come more people aren't breaking down the doors? Could it be because all of my friends with degrees wouldn't change places with me?

    I mean if everyone has this idea that teaching is a glory gig that pays great and you'll live a life of luxury good news we have plenty of jobs open.

    Now if you'll excuse me I have to go lesson plan. I can't make 28,000 posts because I'm pretty damn busy with my job.
    Sure, any math that doesn't agree with how you feel must obviously be wrong. Teachers have it easy for the money they get paid for the hours they have to work. The reason people aren't agressively fighting for those jobs? They'd rather have the more cash today in their pocket than work the less hours, or know they'll have guaranteed retirement.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Sure, any math that doesn't agree with how you feel must obviously be wrong. Teachers have it easy for the money they get paid for the hours they have to work. The reason people aren't agressively fighting for those jobs? They'd rather have the more cash today in their pocket than work the less hours, or know they'll have guaranteed retirement.
    And any math that agrees with how you feel must be right?

    So your argument is that teachers have it easy for the money they get paid and for the hours to work and then you think people wouldn't want that? Ok, keep dreaming. Must be easy to do when you have time for 28,000 posts yet claim to know so much about hard work.

    You can get the last word as usual, it won't change the fact that you're talking a lot about a job you've never done. Then again I don't go around claiming to know everything about everyone else's job, but I guess that's just something a guy with your kind of time is free to do. I'm not an expert on farming just because I've passed a wheat field, but apparently you're an expert on teaching because you sat in a classroom twenty five years ago.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    And any math that agrees with how you feel must be right?

    So your argument is that teachers have it easy for the money they get paid and for the hours to work and then you think people wouldn't want that? Ok, keep dreaming. Must be easy to do when you have time for 28,000 posts yet claim to know so much about hard work.

    You can get the last word as usual, it won't change the fact that you're talking a lot about a job you've never done. Then again I don't go around claiming to know everything about everyone else's job, but I guess that's just something a guy with your kind of time is free to do.
    The hours you have to work are the hours you have to work, and the pay you get for them is commensurate for that number of hours. Saying teachers are low paid vs the private industry is a joke if you don't take into account days and hours worked. If the position wasn't salaried but hourly instead, the diference would be pretty apparent. Attacking me because of a post count doesn't change the dollars paid per hour worked, sorry.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    The hours you have to work are the hours you have to work, and the pay you get for them is commensurate for that number of hours. Saying teachers are low paid vs the private industry is a joke if you don't take into account days and hours worked. If the position wasn't salaried but hourly instead, the diference would be pretty apparent. Attacking me because of a post count doesn't change the dollars paid per hour worked, sorry.
    I would LOVE to be paid by the hour. If I got paid by the hour for the average bachelor degree I would be making a ton more. The fact is I work a TON of hours for low pay. The contract is contracted time to be in the building. The extra amount of hours it takes to do the job is quite high. I'm surprised you don't know this, but then again how could I expect you to know that? You've never been a teacher. And attacking me because of my profession won't change that. So have a good one.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    Why are atheists under-represented in prison populations? The crime rate decreased even as church attendance decreased. The last thing I want in office is some theocrat taking away everyone's liberties in the name of the Lord. Persecuting people who are different from them or believe in something different. I have no problem with my President being a religious man, but we need one that shoves it down your throat like I need a third eye.
    How many people go to church means nothing. Being religious means squat as well. When I was referring to a man after God's own heart, I was referring to someone who isnt religious, who isnt judgmental, who genuinely gives a crap and prefers to do good over evil. Someone whose god isn't money...This is ultimately what the New Testament Christian is called to be like - someone that everyone can appreciate, whether ur an atheist or a God-fearing man. I'm simly saying that we have to have someone in there that does not let the love of money and power (greed) dictate his/her actions and decisions. Its that simple really. No need to get upset. If u disagree, well ok. It certainly wont make me waver in my opinion. I'm just defending what I see to be upright and fair and I'm simply looking for a presidential candidate the closely fits this image. BTW- atheism is under-represented for two reasons. 1) The Holy Bible is allowed in prison and is circulated in prisons. 2) The prison ministry is a common target for missionaries. Thus, meaning that there arent so many atheist in prison to begin with. Maybe they started out that way, but most were probably agnostic really..

  26. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    I'm not saying religious leaders will do any better, but someone with unwavering standards to be upright and someone who cares more about having a morally sound country will be a far better fit for leadership than someone who isn't. And right now, the guy that follows New Testament/ New Covenant Biblical guidance (not a religious prick) to me seems to be what we really need. There is a directly proportional curve with moral/spiritual decay and the downfall of this country's safety and economic growth.
    Can you explain how we validate this person? So far between Catholics "Hide the pedophile priests" and all the other different scams and controversies in other religions where exactly we'll get someone we can be sure isn't just another huge douchebag wearing a frock and carrying a big cross?

    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    Why are atheists under-represented in prison populations? The crime rate decreased even as church attendance decreased. The last thing I want in office is some theocrat taking away everyone's liberties in the name of the Lord. Persecuting people who are different from them or believe in something different. I have no problem with my President being a religious man, but we need one that shoves it down your throat like I need a third eye.
    At least here I agree with you, although i'm not entirely sure whether there is a correlation relationship vs causal there. We don't need a fake prophet talking head, we've had plenty of that through history, actually our last 2 presidents are fine examples.

    Comically as an agnostic, I have a problem with how people have chosen to use "freedom of religion" in thje constitution. When the constitution was signed, most of the states had their official religion and that was perfectly ok. That was put in the constitution to avoid having the federal government force a religion down everyones throats. But the states were still free to do as they wished, and if you didn't like your state's official religion, or how it handled it (school prayer, etc) you were free to move to another state.

  27. I'm not gonna make it complicated or get into detail, imma' put it this way, ANYBODY BUT OBAMA WOULD BE GREAAAAT.
    Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free.
    -Jim Morrison

  28. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Catholics "Hide the pedophile priests"
    Lolz
    Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free.
    -Jim Morrison

  29. Does anyone know when Ron Paul got leprosy? He was 2nd in the straw poll, only 200 votes behind the leader (less than 5% behind) and yet he's being 100% ignored by all news agencies...

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo...xrs=share_copy

  30. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    But in the private sector you can still without cause be laid off at any time, just after 90 days you are eligible for unemployment. And seccsi seems to want to make up reality here that the private sector jobs ate normally for life too, apparently never having worked in the private sector and ignoring what's happened to US employment the last 5 years. Once a teacher hits tenure its a real job for life, with virtually no chance of firing unless they go to jail for something
    you and i both know that this is not entirely accurate. I know in Pa, a tenured teacher is two unsatisfactory reviews away from being let go
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