Election of 2012....Who ya got?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    But in the private sector you can still without cause be laid off at any time, just after 90 days you are eligible for unemployment. And seccsi seems to want to make up reality here that the private sector jobs ate normally for life too, apparently never having worked in the private sector and ignoring what's happened to US employment the last 5 years. Once a teacher hits tenure its a real job for life, with virtually no chance of firing unless they go to jail for something
    I never said private sector jobs are normally for life. I said for the most part you won't get fired for reasons like making a parent mad or a board member with an agenda. Obviously you can get fired because the business isn't doing well or needs to cut (Guess what that has happened in education big time as well lately, even tenured teachers).

    Again my whole point was the reason you have tenure is because of the unique situation teachers find themselves in. It is designed to protect them from those ways of getting fired I mentioned. And you don't have that in the private sector. And I've worked in the private sector thank you very much. In fact this is my first public sector job. When I was in the private sector I never feared a decision I made might cost me my job because it pissed a parent off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    I never said private sector jobs are normally for life. I said for the most part you won't get fired for reasons like making a parent mad or a board member with an agenda. Obviously you can get fired because the business isn't doing well or needs to cut (Guess what that has happened in education big time as well lately, even tenured teachers).
    And so they should....but sorry I don't see the massive layoffs of teachers....the number of jobs lost in the private sector vs. public sector jobs isn't in the same ballpark, or league, or universe for that matter.


    Again my whole point was the reason you have tenure is because of the unique situation teachers find themselves in. It is designed to protect them from those ways of getting fired I mentioned. And you don't have that in the private sector. And I've worked in the private sector thank you very much. In fact this is my first public sector job. When I was in the private sector I never feared a decision I made might cost me my job because it pissed a parent off.

    There is no reason on this earth that justifies a lifetime job with public funds....

    You should get tenure because you "might" get fired from a parent complaining? Please....



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    Quote Originally Posted by Admin View Post
    And so they should....but sorry I don't see the massive layoffs of teachers....the number of jobs lost in the private sector vs. public sector jobs isn't in the same ballpark, or league, or universe for that matter.

    There is no reason on this earth that justifies a lifetime job with public funds....

    You should get tenure because you "might" get fired from a parent complaining? Please....
    I don't see why the first point is relevant. Should the number of jobs lost or gained be equal? My compensation for degree level is certainly much lower than expected in the private sector, but I'm not complaining because it should be equal. Teachers have lost their jobs during the down economy just as people in the private sector has. If you want to blame society for still needing first grade teachers even when the economy is doing poorly, go ahead. It isn't apples to apples though in the least bit.

    As for the second point a lot is wrong with the tenure system, and I've never argued otherwise. The idea that it is a lifetime job is pretty sketchy at best. Many teachers are terminated before tenure and teachers are terminated with tenure. If the system of school boards and influence from things like parents wasn't so flawed then you wouldn't need tenure. Because of that broken system it's a protection against agendas. I'm all for getting rid of the school board system which would probably lessen the need for tenure.

    I'd trade my tenure in a second for real bonuses, raises, and a higher salary. But a lot is wrong with the public school systems and the fixes aren't even close to easy which is why people always argue about what to do.
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    IMO, the reason this country has gone to crap is because of its moral degeneration. Too much greed, no accountability. I'm not saying religious leaders will do any better, but someone with unwavering standards to be upright and someone who cares more about having a morally sound country will be a far better fit for leadership than someone who isn't. And right now, the guy that follows New Testament/ New Covenant Biblical guidance (not a religious prick) to me seems to be what we really need. There is a directly proportional curve with moral/spiritual decay and the downfall of this country's safety and economic growth. We have altogether gone away from what we were founded upon- what works. Yet there are too many people who get bent out of shape when someone else throws some good old-fashoined accountability out there. I think its funny that Americans hate the idea of Biblical teachings yet 80% of the country claims to be Christian. And I hear of so many people that are scared of anyone who takes a spiritual approach on the matter. Strangely, "the man after God's own heart" would actually have everyone else's interest in mind over his own, in other words - selfless. This country is so confused when it comes to religion, spiritual comprehension and politics. Due to his track record and background, I think Obama will run it further into the ground. And I hate that instead of being responsible with his actions he would rather throw the blame on GOP and pretty much everyone but himself. Such a coward..at least admit to your faults and learn from them. I want to see a president and administration that walks the straight and narrow. Someone above reproach.
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    I also don't see the hate for teachers period. Some of you are acting like it's some sort of gravy train where we get paid tons of money, don't have to work, have lifetime jobs and then have some sweet retirement on a yacht. In Kansas where I work we have about 60 teachers. No one I know has a vacation home and the majority of us drive crap cars. We put up with bull**** from parents and kids all the time. I'm constantly busy. And I started out at 32,000. I don't know where these fantasy dreams about people with my life come from, but I can assure you at least in the state of Kanas the gravy train isn't running.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    I also don't see the hate for teachers period. Some of you are acting like it's some sort of gravy train where we get paid tons of money, don't have to work, have lifetime jobs and then have some sweet retirement on a yacht. In Kansas where I work we have about 60 teachers. No one I know has a vacation home and the majority of us drive crap cars. We put up with bull**** from parents and kids all the time. I'm constantly busy. And I started out at 32,000. I don't know where these fantasy dreams about people with my life come from, but I can assure you at least in the state of Kanas the gravy train isn't running.
    The average American worker:
    52 weeks x 5 Days/week = 260 Days
    4 weeks vacation/year = -16 Days*
    10 holidays/year= -10
    3 sick days/year= -3
    3 personal days/year= -3
    Total days worked 228 Days/ year
    * 4 weeks vacation AFTER 4-5 years of employment
    Work day is 8 hours WORK with 1/2 hr. unpaid lunch and 2/15 minutes break/day

    The average teacher:
    School year = 180 days
    14 Holidays/year= -14
    5 personal days/year= -5
    7 Sick days/year- -7
    ? Vacation days/year= ? *
    Total days worked 154 Days/ year

    so 32,000 / 154 = 207.79. That same money as per private industry # of working days = $47,376
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    IMO, the reason this country has gone to crap is because of its moral degeneration. Too much greed, no accountability. I'm not saying religious leaders will do any better, but someone with unwavering standards to be upright and someone who cares more about having a morally sound country will be a far better fit for leadership than someone who isn't. And right now, the guy that follows New Testament/ New Covenant Biblical guidance (not a religious prick) to me seems to be what we really need. There is a directly proportional curve with moral/spiritual decay and the downfall of this country's safety and economic growth. We have altogether gone away from what we were founded upon- what works. Yet there are too many people who get bent out of shape when someone else throws some good old-fashoined accountability out there. I think its funny that Americans hate the idea of Biblical teachings yet 80% of the country claims to be Christian. And I hear of so many people that are scared of anyone who takes a spiritual approach on the matter. Strangely, "the man after God's own heart" would actually have everyone else's interest in mind over his own, in other words - selfless. This country is so confused when it comes to religion, spiritual comprehension and politics. Due to his track record and background, I think Obama will run it further into the ground. And I hate that instead of being responsible with his actions he would rather throw the blame on GOP and pretty much everyone but himself. Such a coward..at least admit to your faults and learn from them. I want to see a president and administration that walks the straight and narrow. Someone above reproach.
    Why are atheists under-represented in prison populations? The crime rate decreased even as church attendance decreased. The last thing I want in office is some theocrat taking away everyone's liberties in the name of the Lord. Persecuting people who are different from them or believe in something different. I have no problem with my President being a religious man, but we need one that shoves it down your throat like I need a third eye.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    so 32,000 / 154 = 207.79. That same money as per private industry # of working days = $47,376
    This works out perfectly because I NEVER work on weekends, never take home anything to grade, never lesson plan at home, never go to conferences in the summer, never go to school plays on the weekend or school dances, never have kids call and ask for help on the weekend, etc. It is literally EXACTLY as those numbers paint it.

    Again I'd put my hours worked up against damn near anybody. I'd put my days as well. Those are our contract days, the idea that the job doesn't require anything outside of contract time is hilarious. Yes it's so cushy. I'm typing this from my 400,000 dollar home and getting ready to go gas up my Ferrari. Why are you guys not teachers? I mean it's so cushy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    This works out perfectly because I NEVER work on weekends, never take home anything to grade, never lesson plan at home, never go to conferences in the summer, never go to school plays on the weekend or school dances, never have kids call and ask for help on the weekend, etc. It is literally EXACTLY as those numbers paint it.

    Again I'd put my hours worked up against damn near anybody. I'd put my days as well. Those are our contract days, the idea that the job doesn't require anything outside of contract time is hilarious.
    Right, and private industry doesn't do the same thing? as well as expect 50+ hour weeks, etc? And you wonder with arguments like that why people have no sympathy for teachers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Right, and private industry doesn't do the same thing? as well as expect 50+ hour weeks, etc? And you wonder with arguments like that why people have no sympathy for teachers.
    When did I say that? I don't really give a **** if people have sympathy for me or not, I don't need it. You're the one claiming teachers don't do that with your little numbers. Once again more "stats" of yours that don't tell any part of the story like the ones you tried to provide earlier about pay.

    I know I work my ass off a lot for minimal pay. I know all my coworkers aren't living high on the hog. I'm just not really sure why some people seem to despise us so much. It isn't like its hard to get a teaching job. How come more people aren't breaking down the doors? Could it be because all of my friends with degrees wouldn't change places with me?

    I mean if everyone has this idea that teaching is a glory gig that pays great and you'll live a life of luxury good news we have plenty of jobs open.

    Now if you'll excuse me I have to go lesson plan. I can't make 28,000 posts because I'm pretty damn busy with my job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    When did I say that? I don't really give a **** if people have sympathy for me or not, I don't need it. You're the one claiming teachers don't do that with your little numbers. Once again more "stats" of yours that don't tell any part of the story like the ones you tried to provide earlier about pay.

    I know I work my ass off a lot for minimal pay. I know all my coworkers aren't living high on the hog. I'm just not really sure why some people seem to despise us so much. It isn't like its hard to get a teaching job. How come more people aren't breaking down the doors? Could it be because all of my friends with degrees wouldn't change places with me?

    I mean if everyone has this idea that teaching is a glory gig that pays great and you'll live a life of luxury good news we have plenty of jobs open.

    Now if you'll excuse me I have to go lesson plan. I can't make 28,000 posts because I'm pretty damn busy with my job.
    Sure, any math that doesn't agree with how you feel must obviously be wrong. Teachers have it easy for the money they get paid for the hours they have to work. The reason people aren't agressively fighting for those jobs? They'd rather have the more cash today in their pocket than work the less hours, or know they'll have guaranteed retirement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Sure, any math that doesn't agree with how you feel must obviously be wrong. Teachers have it easy for the money they get paid for the hours they have to work. The reason people aren't agressively fighting for those jobs? They'd rather have the more cash today in their pocket than work the less hours, or know they'll have guaranteed retirement.
    And any math that agrees with how you feel must be right?

    So your argument is that teachers have it easy for the money they get paid and for the hours to work and then you think people wouldn't want that? Ok, keep dreaming. Must be easy to do when you have time for 28,000 posts yet claim to know so much about hard work.

    You can get the last word as usual, it won't change the fact that you're talking a lot about a job you've never done. Then again I don't go around claiming to know everything about everyone else's job, but I guess that's just something a guy with your kind of time is free to do. I'm not an expert on farming just because I've passed a wheat field, but apparently you're an expert on teaching because you sat in a classroom twenty five years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    And any math that agrees with how you feel must be right?

    So your argument is that teachers have it easy for the money they get paid and for the hours to work and then you think people wouldn't want that? Ok, keep dreaming. Must be easy to do when you have time for 28,000 posts yet claim to know so much about hard work.

    You can get the last word as usual, it won't change the fact that you're talking a lot about a job you've never done. Then again I don't go around claiming to know everything about everyone else's job, but I guess that's just something a guy with your kind of time is free to do.
    The hours you have to work are the hours you have to work, and the pay you get for them is commensurate for that number of hours. Saying teachers are low paid vs the private industry is a joke if you don't take into account days and hours worked. If the position wasn't salaried but hourly instead, the diference would be pretty apparent. Attacking me because of a post count doesn't change the dollars paid per hour worked, sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    The hours you have to work are the hours you have to work, and the pay you get for them is commensurate for that number of hours. Saying teachers are low paid vs the private industry is a joke if you don't take into account days and hours worked. If the position wasn't salaried but hourly instead, the diference would be pretty apparent. Attacking me because of a post count doesn't change the dollars paid per hour worked, sorry.
    I would LOVE to be paid by the hour. If I got paid by the hour for the average bachelor degree I would be making a ton more. The fact is I work a TON of hours for low pay. The contract is contracted time to be in the building. The extra amount of hours it takes to do the job is quite high. I'm surprised you don't know this, but then again how could I expect you to know that? You've never been a teacher. And attacking me because of my profession won't change that. So have a good one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    Why are atheists under-represented in prison populations? The crime rate decreased even as church attendance decreased. The last thing I want in office is some theocrat taking away everyone's liberties in the name of the Lord. Persecuting people who are different from them or believe in something different. I have no problem with my President being a religious man, but we need one that shoves it down your throat like I need a third eye.
    How many people go to church means nothing. Being religious means squat as well. When I was referring to a man after God's own heart, I was referring to someone who isnt religious, who isnt judgmental, who genuinely gives a crap and prefers to do good over evil. Someone whose god isn't money...This is ultimately what the New Testament Christian is called to be like - someone that everyone can appreciate, whether ur an atheist or a God-fearing man. I'm simly saying that we have to have someone in there that does not let the love of money and power (greed) dictate his/her actions and decisions. Its that simple really. No need to get upset. If u disagree, well ok. It certainly wont make me waver in my opinion. I'm just defending what I see to be upright and fair and I'm simply looking for a presidential candidate the closely fits this image. BTW- atheism is under-represented for two reasons. 1) The Holy Bible is allowed in prison and is circulated in prisons. 2) The prison ministry is a common target for missionaries. Thus, meaning that there arent so many atheist in prison to begin with. Maybe they started out that way, but most were probably agnostic really..
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    I'm not saying religious leaders will do any better, but someone with unwavering standards to be upright and someone who cares more about having a morally sound country will be a far better fit for leadership than someone who isn't. And right now, the guy that follows New Testament/ New Covenant Biblical guidance (not a religious prick) to me seems to be what we really need. There is a directly proportional curve with moral/spiritual decay and the downfall of this country's safety and economic growth.
    Can you explain how we validate this person? So far between Catholics "Hide the pedophile priests" and all the other different scams and controversies in other religions where exactly we'll get someone we can be sure isn't just another huge douchebag wearing a frock and carrying a big cross?

    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    Why are atheists under-represented in prison populations? The crime rate decreased even as church attendance decreased. The last thing I want in office is some theocrat taking away everyone's liberties in the name of the Lord. Persecuting people who are different from them or believe in something different. I have no problem with my President being a religious man, but we need one that shoves it down your throat like I need a third eye.
    At least here I agree with you, although i'm not entirely sure whether there is a correlation relationship vs causal there. We don't need a fake prophet talking head, we've had plenty of that through history, actually our last 2 presidents are fine examples.

    Comically as an agnostic, I have a problem with how people have chosen to use "freedom of religion" in thje constitution. When the constitution was signed, most of the states had their official religion and that was perfectly ok. That was put in the constitution to avoid having the federal government force a religion down everyones throats. But the states were still free to do as they wished, and if you didn't like your state's official religion, or how it handled it (school prayer, etc) you were free to move to another state.
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    I'm not gonna make it complicated or get into detail, imma' put it this way, ANYBODY BUT OBAMA WOULD BE GREAAAAT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Catholics "Hide the pedophile priests"
    Lolz
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    Does anyone know when Ron Paul got leprosy? He was 2nd in the straw poll, only 200 votes behind the leader (less than 5% behind) and yet he's being 100% ignored by all news agencies...

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo...xrs=share_copy
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    But in the private sector you can still without cause be laid off at any time, just after 90 days you are eligible for unemployment. And seccsi seems to want to make up reality here that the private sector jobs ate normally for life too, apparently never having worked in the private sector and ignoring what's happened to US employment the last 5 years. Once a teacher hits tenure its a real job for life, with virtually no chance of firing unless they go to jail for something
    you and i both know that this is not entirely accurate. I know in Pa, a tenured teacher is two unsatisfactory reviews away from being let go
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Sure, any math that doesn't agree with how you feel must obviously be wrong. Teachers have it easy for the money they get paid for the hours they have to work. The reason people aren't agressively fighting for those jobs? They'd rather have the more cash today in their pocket than work the less hours, or know they'll have guaranteed retirement.
    Easy, you and I have talked about this before, and you are totally in the wrong here. Teachers get paid far less, and work many, many unpaid hours which is "required" for the job. I have spent more time (chaperoning, watching film for football, sitting on buses, prepping my classrooms in the summer, etc...) than I care to count.

    I made far more money in the private sector, and at 5pm on friday went home and was thrilled. On Fridays now, all I wanna do is sleep. I am at work by 6:45am and on many days dont leave till after 4pm.

    Are there those that take advantage? of course, but the same can be said of the private sector.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Does anyone know when Ron Paul got leprosy? He was 2nd in the straw poll, only 200 votes behind the leader (less than 5% behind) and yet he's being 100% ignored by all news agencies...

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo...xrs=share_copy
    Could there be a republican bias in the media? against one of their own?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14

    Could there be a republican bias in the media? against one of their own?
    The problem is that he's a libertarian, and has been consistent his whole career. Nobody in the media likes that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14

    Easy, you and I have talked about this before, and you are totally in the wrong here. Teachers get paid far less, and work many, many unpaid hours which is "required" for the job. I have spent more time (chaperoning, watching film for football, sitting on buses, prepping my classrooms in the summer, etc...) than I care to count.

    I made far more money in the private sector, and at 5pm on friday went home and was thrilled. On Fridays now, all I wanna do is sleep. I am at work by 6:45am and on many days dont leave till after 4pm.

    Are there those that take advantage? of course, but the same can be said of the private sector.
    The problem isn't individual teachers, its the special interest group of the teachers union as a whole. There are great individual teachers, many of whom deserve making more than they do. But there is a majority of mediocre teachers, and a significant portion that are a total drain on the system. Sadly of course, the worst tend to end up on the inner city schools, making the problems there worse.

    Washington DC wanted to during raise negotiations offer teachers a choice. Accept the 4% raise, or only take a 1% raise but institute a merit based bonus system that could allow teachers to make as much as twice their current pay based on improvement in average student performance. The union officials disallowed it from even being brought to a vote
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL

    The problem is that he's a libertarian, and has been consistent his whole career. Nobody in the media likes that.
    I gotta give you credit...this made me laugh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL

    The problem isn't individual teachers, its the special interest group of the teachers union as a whole. There are great individual teachers, many of whom deserve making more than they do. But there is a majority of mediocre teachers, and a significant portion that are a total drain on the system. Sadly of course, the worst tend to end up on the inner city schools, making the problems there worse.

    Washington DC wanted to during raise negotiations offer teachers a choice. Accept the 4% raise, or only take a 1% raise but institute a merit based bonus system that could allow teachers to make as much as twice their current pay based on improvement in average student performance. The union officials disallowed it from even being brought to a vote
    You do understand the major drawbacks for merit based pay and why it has never worked in education right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14

    You do understand the major drawbacks for merit based pay and why it has never worked in education right?
    I'd like to know when and where it was tried, as both have bearing. And I would not in the slightest put it past the union to purposefully sabotage it. But for the union to disallow the teachers to even vote on it shows the culture and character of the union officials.
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    Interesting...hmmmmm, um...I forgot what I was going to say?!?
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Does anyone know when Ron Paul got leprosy? He was 2nd in the straw poll, only 200 votes behind the leader (less than 5% behind) and yet he's being 100% ignored by all news agencies...

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo...xrs=share_copy
    Gross as I like the guy a lot. The problem is he is for a lot of things Republicans hate. He isn't afraid to call out the hypocrisy of them saying they are small government but using big government tactics in regards to woman's health rights, gays, drugs, etc. Watch him during a debate. At least half the things he is for the rank and file Republicans are against. He is actually small government when most of the right just gives small government lip service. Republicans on the whole are only small government on the stuff they don't want, they want huge government for everything else. He basically calls them out on that and as such can't win and isn't a true player.
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    Ralph Nader anyone?
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'd like to know when and where it was tried, as both have bearing. And I would not in the slightest put it past the union to purposefully sabotage it. But for the union to disallow the teachers to even vote on it shows the culture and character of the union officials.
    Designing a merit based system that works would be next to impossible. Some schools are filled with kids coming from great families who are going to do well in school no matter who teaches them. Some schools are filled with kids coming from crap families who are likely going to struggle or not care no matter who teaches them. Salaries are going to be based on kids taking high stakes test? What if the kid in my school got high the night before? What if his dad beat the crap out of him? What if he hasn't been read to until he started public school? The lion's den is basically never ending.

    Think of it as in the college setting if it helps. A lot of people in college don't go to class, don't study, and end up failing. A lot of people show up, study, and pass easily. The idea that we should pay the teacher/professor based on how the kids do on some test just doesn't work when you consider all the factors. Crap teachers with great kids would show progress and great teachers with crap kids might not even if they are doing a great job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Easy, you and I have talked about this before, and you are totally in the wrong here. Teachers get paid far less, and work many, many unpaid hours which is "required" for the job. I have spent more time (chaperoning, watching film for football, sitting on buses, prepping my classrooms in the summer, etc...) than I care to count.

    I made far more money in the private sector, and at 5pm on friday went home and was thrilled. On Fridays now, all I wanna do is sleep. I am at work by 6:45am and on many days dont leave till after 4pm.

    Are there those that take advantage? of course, but the same can be said of the private sector.
    This is spot on though I'm jealous of you being able to leave anywhere near 4. Out of 187 contract days this year I bet I get to leave before 4 around 25 of them I also plan on spending at least 5 hours at school each weekend as with coaching I have to do all my planning and grading on the weekends. During football season I'm usually at the school around 12 hours except for on days we have JV or varsity games where I can be at the school sometimes as much as 16. And then be at Saturday practice/film as well. Never a dull moment!
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    Think of it as in the college setting if it helps. A lot of people in college don't go to class, don't study, and end up failing. A lot of people show up, study, and pass easily. The idea that we should pay the teacher/professor based on how the kids do on some test just doesn't work when you consider all the factors. Crap teachers with great kids would show progress and great teachers with crap kids might not even if they are doing a great job.
    The problem with so many teachers is that they are teaching in the same government institution they received their own education from.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi

    Designing a merit based system that works would be next to impossible. Some schools are filled with kids coming from great families who are going to do well in school no matter who teaches them. Some schools are filled with kids coming from crap families who are likely going to struggle or not care no matter who teaches them. Salaries are going to be based on kids taking high stakes test? What if the kid in my school got high the night before? What if his dad beat the crap out of him? What if he hasn't been read to until he started public school? The lion's den is basically never ending.

    Think of it as in the college setting if it helps. A lot of people in college don't go to class, don't study, and end up failing. A lot of people show up, study, and pass easily. The idea that we should pay the teacher/professor based on how the kids do on some test just doesn't work when you consider all the factors. Crap teachers with great kids would show progress and great teachers with crap kids might not even if they are doing a great job.
    You don't test vs generic averages, you test vs that same schools prior year performance. If that school's average for 5th graders was 20% reading at grade level, and in 6th grade you bring that up to 25%, that's a great improvement. If that school had 85% at grade level and you brought it to 90 that's great improvement. Any individual schools demographics don't change much year to year, so your argument is invalid. Saying "there's no good way to measure it" mostly means its primarily snake oil sales.
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    I don't know what that means. Public education has a lot of problems, but it's the only hope for a lot of kids. Ironically the right wants every kid to be born, but then doesn't give a crap what happens to them after that. I call them pro-birth. They want kids to be born, but after they are here **** em. Not on my tax dollar they say.

    It's public educations job to try and do the job a lot of parents refuse to do. It's also most of those kids only chances. It is by no means perfect and I fully support changes that make sense. It isn't going anywhere because it isn't like a majority of Americans want to see education taken away. I would love to see a lot of its problems start to become fixed, and I could say that about anything to do with the government. As small government as I am I still believe in its LIMITED role.

    Are you an ACist Ax? I used to visit a board with a lot of ACists and even though I disagreed with a lot of them, it was very enlightening discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You don't test vs generic averages, you test vs that same schools prior year performance. If that school's average for 5th graders was 20% reading at grade level, and in 6th grade you bring that up to 25%, that's a great improvement. If that school had 85% at grade level and you brought it to 90 that's great improvement. Any individual schools demographics don't change much year to year, so your argument is invalid. Saying "there's no good way to measure it" mostly means its primarily snake oil sales.
    You're ignoring a lot of the factors that go into that improvement though. What if 5 of my 20 10th graders get into drugs? What if Dad gets back from the war and starts making Susie read? These type of things have an impact and they are beyond a teachers control. Not to mention you have a lot of problems with the making of tests. You're still relying on students taking high stakes test for the salary of someone else.

    The idea that you can design a test that measures exactly how good the teacher is doing is not something I buy in the least bit. I see kids who are all A's in junior high turn into high school dropouts. We get warned of problem kids all the time, and sometimes they come into high school and flourish. It's just too much variance to accurately say "this teacher is doing a great job and this test shows it was all them."

    If designed properly I'd love merit pay, again I think that would drive my salary way up. I just don't think we know a foolproof way of doing it yet. Too much variance. I also don't see how you'd make it work for middle school and up, though it may be doable at the elementary level. It's much harder to judge my performance on merit when I'm one of 6 teachers a kid has. You can get a lot better gauge when kids have the one and same teacher all year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'd like to know when and where it was tried, as both have bearing. And I would not in the slightest put it past the union to purposefully sabotage it. But for the union to disallow the teachers to even vote on it shows the culture and character of the union officials.
    It as used in NYC for a while in 2007 I believe and failed miserably.

    Some of the major reasons it doesnt work in education:
    1. how do you judge success?
    2. where does special ed fit in?
    3. are tests scores the goal (if so, we see what happened with cheating scandals)

    At the end of the day, it would be exceptionally difficult, even when using a portfolio based assessment as your gauge
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    This is spot on though I'm jealous of you being able to leave anywhere near 4. Out of 187 contract days this year I bet I get to leave before 4 around 25 of them I also plan on spending at least 5 hours at school each weekend as with coaching I have to do all my planning and grading on the weekends. During football season I'm usually at the school around 12 hours except for on days we have JV or varsity games where I can be at the school sometimes as much as 16. And then be at Saturday practice/film as well. Never a dull moment!
    I remember early in my career doing the coaching. Wrestling and football took most of my life. The joke in my house is that i missed most of my daughters first 6 months.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You don't test vs generic averages, you test vs that same schools prior year performance. If that school's average for 5th graders was 20% reading at grade level, and in 6th grade you bring that up to 25%, that's a great improvement. If that school had 85% at grade level and you brought it to 90 that's great improvement. Any individual schools demographics don't change much year to year, so your argument is invalid. Saying "there's no good way to measure it" mostly means its primarily snake oil sales.
    Sorry for all the posts. Each year, teachers get a different crop of students that are the true wild card. I have had years where students would have succeeded regardless of what I did in the classroom, and other years where the students struggled no matter how many efforts I put in to alter and assist. You can never account for what you will get in your classroom at the start of every september
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I remember early in my career doing the coaching. Wrestling and football took most of my life. The joke in my house is that i missed most of my daughters first 6 months.
    I bet the quality of teaching would significantly go up if teachers school scheduled was cut in half at the same pay rate (or even more imo.) Also, you would have more jobs and more people wanting to teach.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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