What good has Obama done for the U.S.A.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    Killing Bin Laden is not a valid response b/c the president did not commit this act himself - it simply occurred during his presidency.

    I don't really keep up with politics but Obama makes me laugh. I recall him saying earlier on during his presidency where he said the depression had been over. LOL idk what country he thought he was presiding over but nothing seems to have improved economically or am I delusional. All Obama does when he speaks anywhere is get into his philosophical rants about how people shouldn't have to choose between prescriptions and putting food on the table, blah, blah, blah.

    He never reveals what he intends to do. That sure wasn't the case during his election campaign. Promises, dreams, candy, and rainbows. He gets elected and I have yet to hear of/see any positive impact he's had on America. He's more of a celebrity icon than a president to me.

    he's made America wake up and smell the coffee.anyone who though obama was going to come into office and fix the mess bush left is insane.it'll take years and years and years to fix the mess.then it will take years and years to fix the mess obama has made.bottom line we as a people need to elect better persons into power from the prez all the way down the list.flush everyone out and start over with people who actually give a **** about us as a nation.this whole politics thing is a huge game and very few players in it are actually playing to actually help us as a nation its more about their interest groups,their needs,money etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    he's made America wake up and smell the coffee.anyone who though obama was going to come into office and fix the mess bush left is insane.it'll take years and years and years to fix the mess.then it will take years and years to fix the mess obama has made.bottom line we as a people need to elect better persons into power from the prez all the way down the list.flush everyone out and start over with people who actually give a **** about us as a nation.this whole politics thing is a huge game and very few players in it are actually playing to actually help us as a nation its more about their interest groups,their needs,money etc.
    if you honestly believe bush is the one who made the mess, you havent been following politics too long



    this has BEEN going on..


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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    he's made America wake up and smell the coffee.anyone who though obama was going to come into office and fix the mess bush left is insane.it'll take years and years and years to fix the mess.then it will take years and years to fix the mess obama has made.bottom line we as a people need to elect better persons into power from the prez all the way down the list.flush everyone out and start over with people who actually give a **** about us as a nation.this whole politics thing is a huge game and very few players in it are actually playing to actually help us as a nation its more about their interest groups,their needs,money etc.
    Agreed.I am not happy with some of the decisions Obama has made,but it is absurd to blame one person for the mess we are in now.Corporate greed and political corruption has been slowly killing us for years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conagher View Post
    Agreed.I am not happy with some of the decisions Obama has made,but it is absurd to blame one person for the mess we are in now.Corporate greed and political corruption has been slowly killing us for years.
    100% true, Obama is a small piece of the puzzle, he is really just the actor on TV but the ones really influencing public policy are all behind the scenes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    he's made America wake up and smell the coffee.anyone who though obama was going to come into office and fix the mess bush left is insane.it'll take years and years and years to fix the mess.then it will take years and years to fix the mess obama has made.bottom line we as a people need to elect better persons into power from the prez all the way down the list.flush everyone out and start over with people who actually give a **** about us as a nation.this whole politics thing is a huge game and very few players in it are actually playing to actually help us as a nation its more about their interest groups,their needs,money etc.
    I think you have it wrong. WE'll never elect a president who will fix any of this. The way this gets fixed is through less government involvement. Failure to raise the debt ceiling is probably the best thing that could happen as it would force the government to become realistic about its spending.

    The on thing that has surprised me with all of the "tax the rich" nonsense is why none of the proposals had entirely removing the cap on how much income you pay social security on. I'm not a fan of our regular progressive tax rates, but at the same time don't see why people are only paying social security on the first $160,000 or so in income either and nothing after that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conagher View Post
    Agreed.I am not happy with some of the decisions Obama has made,but it is absurd to blame one person for the mess we are in now.Corporate greed and political corruption has been slowly killing us for years.
    This times a million. Obviously politicians are going to blame others because that is the way to stay in power, but why are Americans always looking to pin it on one guy? Congress controls the purse strings and Congress has over 500 members. It isn't as if Obama was the first person to run up a deficit and it wasn't like Bush 2 was either. Hell conservative hero Ronald Reagan raised taxes, ran up the deficit, and built up the military complex that sucks out so much of our money today. And that isn't me trying to "blame" Reagan it's just pointing out the fact that you can't just point at one person for our problems and say "there, that is the guy who did it!"

    A fruitless endeavor and one that will always be untrue. Our government has never been ran by one person. Blaming one person is foolish to say the least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    This times a million. Obviously politicians are going to blame others because that is the way to stay in power, but why are Americans always looking to pin it on one guy? Congress controls the purse strings and Congress has over 500 members. It isn't as if Obama was the first person to run up a deficit and it wasn't like Bush 2 was either. Hell conservative hero Ronald Reagan raised taxes, ran up the deficit, and built up the military complex that sucks out so much of our money today. And that isn't me trying to "blame" Reagan it's just pointing out the fact that you can't just point at one person for our problems and say "there, that is the guy who did it!"

    A fruitless endeavor and one that will always be untrue. Our government has never been ran by one person. Blaming one person is foolish to say the least.
    The problem isn't him running up the deficit by itself, its that he is running the national debt up over the GDP (which hasn't happened since the civil war) and the best long term budget plan he has put forward has it being double the GDP in a decade which is worse than Portugal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL

    I think you have it wrong. WE'll never elect a president who will fix any of this. The way this gets fixed is through less government involvement. Failure to raise the debt ceiling is probably the best thing that could happen as it would force the government to become realistic about its spending.

    The on thing that has surprised me with all of the "tax the rich" nonsense is why none of the proposals had entirely removing the cap on how much income you pay social security on. I'm not a fan of our regular progressive tax rates, but at the same time don't see why people are only paying social security on the first $160,000 or so in income either and nothing after that.
    Failure to raise the debt ceiling will be far from the best thing that could happen to us. If you think it will only effect the government youre wrong. Interest rates could skyrocket. They will have no choice but to inflate our way out of debt which is what they're going to do anyway. Not raising it essentially saying were not going to pay our bills. It's hard to get anyone to lend you anything once you've said that.


    And this problem started in the early 80's. Neither "side" has had anything under control since.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I think you have it wrong. WE'll never elect a president who will fix any of this. The way this gets fixed is through less government involvement. Failure to raise the debt ceiling is probably the best thing that could happen as it would force the government to become realistic about its spending.

    The on thing that has surprised me with all of the "tax the rich" nonsense is why none of the proposals had entirely removing the cap on how much income you pay social security on. I'm not a fan of our regular progressive tax rates, but at the same time don't see why people are only paying social security on the first $160,000 or so in income either and nothing after that.
    The problem is the lip service Americans give to small government. I don't think the vast majority of Americans want a small government, Republicans or Democrats. Everyone loves the government programs they benefit from and hates the ones they don't benefit from. They are all for cutting programs that don't help them personally, and strongly opposed to cutting programs that they directly benefit from.

    Ask someone who's receiving unemployment if they think we should get rid of it. Ask someone with family in the military right now if they think their benefits should be cut. Ask someone who's husband is fixing a road giving him a job because of government money if they want that shut down. Ask someone who has a family member getting prescription drugs paid for if they'd like to get rid of that. The idea that Americans actually want smaller government is largely false. We pretty much have the exact government we vote for over and over. We Americans just like to complain about it's size...we largely balk on the necessary methods to reduce it. Sad but true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    The problem isn't him running up the deficit by itself, its that he is running the national debt up over the GDP (which hasn't happened since the civil war) and the best long term budget plan he has put forward has it being double the GDP in a decade which is worse than Portugal.
    Perhaps but we've already been down this road my friend. The problem with blaming Obama for the mess is it ignores what would have been the alternative. Republicans in power would have had a stimulus package, probably bailed out the auto companies (after all they bailed out the banks), wouldn't have left any wars, probably would have had the action in Libya, etc. We would largely be in the exact same shape if we'd put the R in instead of the D.

    Which is great for the staus quo. As long as we're always arguing about R vs. D we won't ever get to the root of the problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahl View Post
    Failure to raise the debt ceiling will be far from the best thing that could happen to us. If you think it will only effect the government youre wrong. Interest rates could skyrocket. They will have no choice but to inflate our way out of debt which is what they're going to do anyway. Not raising it essentially saying were not going to pay our bills. It's hard to get anyone to lend you anything once you've said that.


    And this problem started in the early 80's. Neither "side" has had anything under control since.
    Nope, wrong on the math. Our repayment on national debt is roughly 5% of our total government spending. We can continue to pay that whether or not we raise the debt ceiling. And also wrong, other countries are looking at our rise debt vs GDP and paying a bill late isn't any better than having too high a debt to income ratio. Go ahead and try and get a car loan, your debt to income ratio will totally deny you getting a loan, a few late payments just change your interest rate. The net outcome is going to be about the same from the perspective of inflation or interest rates whether we raise the debt ceiling or not. So i'd prefer we not, and have the federal government finally stop its non-constitutional growth and trim itself back to something manageable. If instead we raise the debt ceiling, government spending continues on like drunken sailors and we continue to have people talk about raising taxes on the rich (penalize the successful, reward the failures) we'll see a worse long term economic potential than if government learns to live within its means just like citizens have to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    Perhaps but we've already been down this road my friend. The problem with blaming Obama for the mess is it ignores what would have been the alternative. Republicans in power would have had a stimulus package, probably bailed out the auto companies (after all they bailed out the banks), wouldn't have left any wars, probably would have had the action in Libya, etc. We would largely be in the exact same shape if we'd put the R in instead of the D.

    Which is great for the staus quo. As long as we're always arguing about R vs. D we won't ever get to the root of the problem.
    And we'd be blaming the R then. I never said a republican would have been significantly better, but the person holding the reins is responsible for where the horse goes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi

    Perhaps but we've already been down this road my friend. The problem with blaming Obama for the mess is it ignores what would have been the alternative. Republicans in power would have had a stimulus package, probably bailed out the auto companies (after all they bailed out the banks), wouldn't have left any wars, probably would have had the action in Libya, etc. We would largely be in the exact same shape if we'd put the R in instead of the D.
    Exactly. McCain strongly supports the Libyan conflict.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    The problem is the lip service Americans give to small government. I don't think the vast majority of Americans want a small government, Republicans or Democrats. Everyone loves the government programs they benefit from and hates the ones they don't benefit from. They are all for cutting programs that don't help them personally, and strongly opposed to cutting programs that they directly benefit from.

    Ask someone who's receiving unemployment if they think we should get rid of it. Ask someone with family in the military right now if they think their benefits should be cut. Ask someone who's husband is fixing a road giving him a job because of government money if they want that shut down. Ask someone who has a family member getting prescription drugs paid for if they'd like to get rid of that. The idea that Americans actually want smaller government is largely false. We pretty much have the exact government we vote for over and over. We Americans just like to complain about it's size...we largely balk on the necessary methods to reduce it. Sad but true.
    I'm pretty sure you are wrong. The "vast majority" of people aren't on those government programs. Those programs today are just mortgagine our childrens and grandchildrens future instead to pay for ****ty government service. And when I say ****ty, I mean wasteful and full of fraud. The sad part is that most of those people don't realize that if the government didn't tax people so heavily at the upper end, and penalize success so much that there would be more opportunities for them to work and they wouldn't need to be collecting food stamps and unemployment. Most elected officials exist to try and create more dependence on government programs, to continue to grow their own power.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'm pretty sure you are wrong. The "vast majority" of people aren't on those government programs. Those programs today are just mortgagine our childrens and grandchildrens future instead to pay for ****ty government service. And when I say ****ty, I mean wasteful and full of fraud. The sad part is that most of those people don't realize that if the government didn't tax people so heavily at the upper end, and penalize success so much that there would be more opportunities for them to work and they wouldn't need to be collecting food stamps and unemployment. Most elected officials exist to try and create more dependence on government programs, to continue to grow their own power.
    Oh I completely disagree. How many people don't have a loved one on some type of government program or know someone on a government program? You don't know a lot of people who have been on unemployment for a stretch over the last few years? You don't know a lot of elderly who are on medicare/medicaid? You don't know any soldiers families who would be against cutting the national defense spending? You don't know any people who are getting ready to get Social Security that wouldn't flip out if you raised the age on them? You don't know a lot of families who would be against cutting education for their children?

    The vast majority of Americans are already on or benefiting from some type of government program and you can damn sure bet they don't want it touched. Again, they are against the government stuff they don't directly benefit from....but touch the stuff they are benefiting from and they will flip out.

    Of course they are full of wasteful spending, the government has never been efficient....but the idea that a lot of Americans are truly for small government is basically absurd. Why do you think lowering the national debt is so difficult? No one can agree on the best way to do it. Raising taxes isn't popular and cutting spending is only popular for those it doesn't effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL

    Nope, wrong on the math. Our repayment on national debt is roughly 5% of our total government spending. We can continue to pay that whether or not we raise the debt ceiling. And also wrong, other countries are looking at our rise debt vs GDP and paying a bill late isn't any better than having too high a debt to income ratio. Go ahead and try and get a car loan, your debt to income ratio will totally deny you getting a loan, a few late payments just change your interest rate. The net outcome is going to be about the same from the perspective of inflation or interest rates whether we raise the debt ceiling or not. So i'd prefer we not, and have the federal government finally stop its non-constitutional growth and trim itself back to something manageable. If instead we raise the debt ceiling, government spending continues on like drunken sailors and we continue to have people talk about raising taxes on the rich (penalize the successful, reward the failures) we'll see a worse long term economic potential than if government learns to live within its means just like citizens have to.
    But if our interest rates rise and they will as the treasury continues to issue bonds to cover debt then that interest payment will also rise. I don't support the continued debt raises either but simply not doing it isn't the responsible thing to do.

    The only thing keeping our rates low is that the rest of the world is in worse shape than we are. Japan has worse debt than Greece. Yet the yen has been rising.

    The only thing to do is raise the limit and cut spending at the same time. AND raise revenues. Social security cap raise as you mentioned is one way. Dividend income rates are another. Altering Medicare prescription coverage to only allow genetics where available is another. There are countless options.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL

    I'm pretty sure you are wrong. The "vast majority" of people aren't on those government programs. Those programs today are just mortgagine our childrens and grandchildrens future instead to pay for ****ty government service. And when I say ****ty, I mean wasteful and full of fraud. The sad part is that most of those people don't realize that if the government didn't tax people so heavily at the upper end, and penalize success so much that there would be more opportunities for them to work and they wouldn't need to be collecting food stamps and unemployment. Most elected officials exist to try and create more dependence on government programs, to continue to grow their own power.
    Ironically the people who mortgaged their grandchildrens futures now actually have grand children. They've been living beyond their means for decades but now they don't want you to touch the programs they are collecting from.

    I see the editorials all the time from seniors complaining about school taxes. They seem to forget that someone was paying those when they were kids in school. Now it's just a burden on them.

    I do agree with you though that most people want smaller government. It's just that they disagree over what agencies should exist. One side prefers big brother and the other side prefers social programs.
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    I'll expand a little Easy....I'm not sure I can think of a single person I know that isn't benefiting from some government program right now. I'm a teacher so of course I don't want public education cut any. My parents are both receiving Social Security so if you took that away from them they would flip. I'm sure my grandmother is benefiting in some way from medicare (I know she gets prescriptions so I'm sure she is saving off some program).

    One of my good friends is still in college and he is receiving student loans and sometimes grants from the government. Another one of my friends is in the Army Rangers and has done three tours. And one of my best friends runs a construction company that is basically only working right now because of the stimulus. Hell he's about as far right as possible, but loved the stimulus...it put money back in his pocket!

    My ex-girlfriend had her kid on Head Start, and was getting government money for rent. I've had multiple friends on unemployment for stretches. I'm not sure I know ANYONE who isn't seeing some type of help from a government program.

    And the thing is they would ALL flip if you took it away while it's benefiting them, or at least be against it if they had a vote on it. So like I said, Americans love to talk small government, but they aren't going to like it if you take away the parts that benefit them.

    This is why cutting the national debt is so difficult. We've all grown to the point where we love the government stuff we get and we also think we shouldn't pay new taxes. It just can't work that way, you can't lower the debt without raising taxes, cutting spending, or some combination. We Americans LOVE to talk small government until we are blue in the face...but it damn sure better not effect or bottom line. And that isn't even something I'd say we should be faulted for...at the end of the day we're all looking out for number one to an extent right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    I'll expand a little Easy....I'm not sure I can think of a single person I know that isn't benefiting from some government program right now. I'm a teacher so of course I don't want public education cut any. My parents are both receiving Social Security so if you took that away from them they would flip. I'm sure my grandmother is benefiting in some way from medicare (I know she gets prescriptions so I'm sure she is saving off some program).

    One of my good friends is still in college and he is receiving student loans and sometimes grants from the government. Another one of my friends is in the Army Rangers and has done three tours. And one of my best friends runs a construction company that is basically only working right now because of the stimulus. Hell he's about as far right as possible, but loved the stimulus...it put money back in his pocket!

    My ex-girlfriend had her kid on Head Start, and was getting government money for rent. I've had multiple friends on unemployment for stretches. I'm not sure I know ANYONE who isn't seeing some type of help from a government program.

    And the thing is they would ALL flip if you took it away while it's benefiting them, or at least be against it if they had a vote on it. So like I said, Americans love to talk small government, but they aren't going to like it if you take away the parts that benefit them.

    This is why cutting the national debt is so difficult. We've all grown to the point where we love the government stuff we get and we also think we shouldn't pay new taxes. It just can't work that way, you can't lower the debt without raising taxes, cutting spending, or some combination. We Americans LOVE to talk small government until we are blue in the face...but it damn sure better not effect or bottom line. And that isn't even something I'd say we should be faulted for...at the end of the day we're all looking out for number one to an extent right?
    But what you say right there is the crux of the problem. People expect federal government to provide those services (which the fedaral government isn't entitled to by the constitution). But the money can't come from nowhere, and raising the taxes on the successful penalizes them, while rewarding those who are non-successful. If you've ever tried training a dog or raising children, you know what sort of results that gives you - a growth in failure, a stop in success. The cost of all of those programs as filtered through the ridiculous federal government is far more expensive than if the federal government shrank to nothing and the money stayed in private circulation. The stimulus bill created jobs at a cost of $270,000 per job because thats how the federal government rolls. If that same $270,000 had stayed in private circulation instead of the government touching it, it would have created at least 2-3 jobs instead.

    Most unemployment comes from states, not federal government, only the ridiculous extensions come from federal government. And again both studies have found that after the first year on unemployment, people basically "give up" and have gotten used to living on that amount and no longer seriously try to find a job as well as the fact that if the federal government wasn't spending that money there would be more money in private industries to create jobs. And for every $1 that goes out in unemployment benefits from the federal government almost $2 has to come in.

    What you are seeing and talking about is the continued growth of people expecting the world to owe them something just because a sperm and an egg met. And thats not reality, and doesn't work anywhere for any significant length of time. Watch the movie IOUSA.



    This movie was done by the prior head of the Congressional Budget Office. An accountant, non partisan, and he makes no attempts at placing blame on anyone in particular, just blame in our outrageous spending. But he gives an accounting view of what will happen over the next 20 years if we don't drastically change how we do things. And not raising the debt ceiling is one way to force drastic changes today. Otherwise within 20-40 years tax rates across the board will have to more than double to JUST pay social security and the interest on the national debt without any other programs being funded at all. Rip the baindaid off today, stop kicking the can another generation down the road.
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    So in a nutshell, people like those programs because they aren't smart enough to understand what the long term consequences of those programs are, or they just don't care because they believe someone else in the future will have to deal with it.
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    I have seen I.O.U.S.A. and love it. And it's really not important to the overall aspect of my argument. People have come to EXPECT that from the government, hence my whole argument that people aren't actually for small government when the government benefits them. It's not as important how we got here as where we go from here. And you didn't really get to the heart of my argument...that Americans AREN'T for small government. It's something they like to put lip service to. Yet I listen to local political talk and people are all talking things the government SHOULD be doing. It SHOULD be making it illegal to have an abortion. It SHOULD be making it illegal for gays to marry. It SHOULD be fixing these damn potholes in the capital city. And these are "conservatives." Supposedly the people who vote for the party of small government. That doesn't sound like small government to me. It sounds like big government.

    Cutting the national debt is actually not difficult, we know exactly how to do it. Raise revenues, cut spending, or both/some combination. The thing that makes it difficult is Americans have come to expect all these things from the government AND believe we should have low taxes. The two just don't jive together if you want a balanced budget.

    We have basically been having these types of debates since the beginning of the country though. Hell they were arguing about the national debt big time in the early 1900's. And we will probably continue to kick it down the road until we burst.
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    Most of the people I know are willing to see cuts in the programs they get value out of today to ensure that they continue, rather than have them go some unknown length of time forwards and then stop entirely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post

    This is why cutting the national debt is so difficult. We've all grown to the point where we love the government stuff we get and we also think we shouldn't pay new taxes. It just can't work that way, you can't lower the debt without raising taxes, cutting spending, or some combination. We Americans LOVE to talk small government until we are blue in the face...but it damn sure better not effect or bottom line. And that isn't even something I'd say we should be faulted for...at the end of the day we're all looking out for number one to an extent right?
    I think to start is actually simple, stop the 5 illegal wars, send all our WWII troops home + close down imperialist military bases still in continuation from WWII, end the silly expensive un-successful war on drugs for starters.

    Did you know we have enough oil in Montana/Dakata to completely 100% get us out of national debt and also supply the US with enough oil until 2040?

    Its really not that complicated, but the corruption on all end going on is nearly impossible to remove.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Most of the people I know are willing to see cuts in the programs they get value out of today to ensure that they continue, rather than have them go some unknown length of time forwards and then stop entirely.
    But my question is are they just saying that? It's much easier to say it and talk about how great it is than to make it happen. We can all talk about how we want smaler government, but the truth is it WOULD be painful for a period. To see a smaller unemployment check, to be close to retirement age and see it go up, to get less funding for college, etc. It's very easy to say you would take the cuts in programs. But in the last 30 years the size of the federal government has exploded, and look at the facts. We have had all Presidents but one serve both terms. We have career politicians in Congress. The same Presidents who let the debt explode, the same members of Congress, very little turnover. They certainly aren't supporting small government with their vote.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    I think to start is actually simple, stop the 5 illegal wars, send all our WWII troops home + close down imperialist military bases still in continuation from WWII, end the silly expensive un-successful war on drugs for starters.

    Did you know we have enough oil in Montana/Dakata to completely 100% get us out of national debt and also supply the US with enough oil until 2040?

    Its really not that complicated, but the corruption on all end going on is nearly impossible to remove.
    Of course you and I realize how easy that is, but we both know we aren't going to end all these wars and we won't stop the war on drugs. You know for a fact what would happen if a presidential candidate wanted to severly cut military funding....his opponent would say he supports terrorism and hates the troops and would win in a landslide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    Of course you and I realize how easy that is, but we both know we aren't going to end all these wars and we won't stop the war on drugs. You know for a fact what would happen if a presidential candidate wanted to severly cut military funding....his opponent would say he supports terrorism and hates the troops and would win in a landslide.
    Yes of course, especially when everything is going the total opposite direction Id like it to be.

    I was almost led to believe Obama was an anti-war president, and he happens to be a bloody war time president. What they say has no meaning to me anymore.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi

    Of course you and I realize how easy that is, but we both know we aren't going to end all these wars and we won't stop the war on drugs. You know for a fact what would happen if a presidential candidate wanted to severly cut military funding....his opponent would say he supports terrorism and hates the troops and would win in a landslide.
    Imagine what the unemployment rate is without wars and the drug war... That's reason enough for them to keep locking up "undesirables".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahl View Post
    Imagine what the unemployment rate is without wars and the drug war... That's reason enough for them to keep locking up "undesirables".
    But..these "undesirables" cost money, this country is bankrupt. If collapsed then what will the unemployment rate look like then?
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1

    But..these "undesirables" cost money, this country is bankrupt. If collapsed then what will the unemployment rate look like then?
    $40,000 a year to feed another person into the prison industrial complex. Cheaper to treat them but you know this country won't go for that. Now we have private prisons to feed.

    Now thats a jobs program!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Yes of course, especially when everything is going the total opposite direction Id like it to be.

    I was almost led to believe Obama was an anti-war president, and he happens to be a bloody war time president. What they say has no meaning to me anymore.
    Anti-war president would be one of many misleading promises from O. The 2 million immigrants deported in the last 2 years is a hot topic at the moment. Whether you are for or against it, this is something O promised wouldn't happen for familes that have american children when he took office.
    How about the fact he's quicker to back any republican view before his own party.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi

    But my question is are they just saying that? It's much easier to say it and talk about how great it is than to make it happen. We can all talk about how we want smaler government, but the truth is it WOULD be painful for a period. To see a smaller unemployment check, to be close to retirement age and see it go up, to get less funding for college, etc. It's very easy to say you would take the cuts in programs. But in the last 30 years the size of the federal government has exploded, and look at the facts. We have had all Presidents but one serve both terms. We have career politicians in Congress. The same Presidents who let the debt explode, the same members of Congress, very little turnover. They certainly aren't supporting small government with their vote.
    No, they mean it, and do support small government with their votes. The problem comes from every bill going through confess having tons of addons to buy other votes. And it will be painful for a while, but the longer we put it off, the worse it will be when we are suddenly forced to face it immediately
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahl

    $40,000 a year to feed another person into the prison industrial complex. Cheaper to treat them but you know this country won't go for that. Now we have private prisons to feed.

    Now thats a jobs program!
    And only $2 for a bullet. Put in a 3 strikes and you are dead policy for all felonies as well as illegal immigration and it would save billions as well as (in the case of deporting or executing illegals) create jobs
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Most of the people I know are willing to see cuts in the programs they get value out of today to ensure that they continue, rather than have them go some unknown length of time forwards and then stop entirely.
    Did they say they would rather have their benefits cut over closing loop holes for Exxon and GE?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL

    And only $2 for a bullet. Put in a 3 strikes and you are dead policy for all felonies as well as illegal immigration and it would save billions as well as (in the case of deporting or executing illegals) create jobs
    Well if your solution to addiction is to kill someone then I see no sense in discussing anything. Hope none if your family ever goes down that road bro.

    We let child Molesters out of prison but 3 strikes rules have junkies in for life. Thats big government in my eyes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessep76

    Did they say they would rather have their benefits cut over closing loop holes for Exxon and GE?
    It's funny how those are considered loopholes, but somehow the person making $25,000 a year and doesn't even pay his full social security 7.5% after all the tax breaks is carrying too much burden.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahl

    Well if your solution to addiction is to kill someone then I see no sense in discussing anything. Hope none if your family ever goes down that road bro.

    We let child Molesters out of prison but 3 strikes rules have junkies in for life. Thats big government in my eyes.
    For all felonies. Most drug possession is a misdemeanor or gets plead to misdemeanor anyhow unless its in distribution quantities
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    No, they mean it, and do support small government with their votes. The problem comes from every bill going through confess having tons of addons to buy other votes. And it will be painful for a while, but the longer we put it off, the worse it will be when we are suddenly forced to face it immediately
    I just don't know if I buy a lot of people supporting small government with their votes. It's pretty obvious that since the 80's our leaders have exploded the size of government (well it started before that, but that's just been the time I've been alive). And we have largely put those same leaders back in power (only one President didn't serve both terms, numerous members in Congress serving then and now.) I'm not saying no one supports small government, but clearly the majority does not. I just don't see how else to explain the same Congress members and the same Presidents over and over. It just doesn't make sense (IMO) to say Americans are for small government when Bush 2 got two terms and quite frankly I think Obama will as well.

    And your second point is spot on, but we have known it would be painful for a long time and Americans have largely ignored it. Politicians don't want to do the things that will deal with it because they aren't politically popular and will likely cost them their jobs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi

    I just don't know if I buy a lot of people supporting small government with their votes. It's pretty obvious that since the 80's our leaders have exploded the size of government (well it started before that, but that's just been the time I've been alive). And we have largely put those same leaders back in power (only one President didn't serve both terms, numerous members in Congress serving then and now.) I'm not saying no one supports small government, but clearly the majority does not. I just don't see how else to explain the same Congress members and the same Presidents over and over. It just doesn't make sense (IMO) to say Americans are for small government when Bush 2 got two terms and quite frankly I think Obama will as well.

    And your second point is spot on, but we have known it would be painful for a long time and Americans have largely ignored it. Politicians don't want to do the things that will deal with it because they aren't politically popular and will likely cost them their jobs.
    The issue is that you have the choice of a Republican or Democrat. That the tea party did so well should be proof that people are showing it with their vote.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi

    I just don't know if I buy a lot of people supporting small government with their votes. It's pretty obvious that since the 80's our leaders have exploded the size of government (well it started before that, but that's just been the time I've been alive). And we have largely put those same leaders back in power (only one President didn't serve both terms, numerous members in Congress serving then and now.) I'm not saying no one supports small government, but clearly the majority does not. I just don't see how else to explain the same Congress members and the same Presidents over and over. It just doesn't make sense (IMO) to say Americans are for small government when Bush 2 got two terms and quite frankly I think Obama will as well.

    And your second point is spot on, but we have known it would be painful for a long time and Americans have largely ignored it. Politicians don't want to do the things that will deal with it because they aren't politically popular and will likely cost them their jobs.
    That won't because the longer they are there the more powerful they become. It's not just about their job it's about WINNING the majority.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    The issue is that you have the choice of a Republican or Democrat. That the tea party did so well should be proof that people are showing it with their vote.
    Yes the two party system continually kills us. Sadly the tea party movement was dead before it could arise and has been absorbed by the religious right. If the tea party is small government with crazies like Michele Bachmann as a leader then I know longer support small government. These people want to outlaw a woman's right to choose, think you can pray yourself straight, think we should have prayer in schools etc. They despise America as much as they claim Obama does. They want 1950 back here again.

    The tea party movement stopped being libertarian a while back. And it was a sad day when it stopped.
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