What good has Obama done for the U.S.A.?

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    Until Americans are willing to actually give something up nothings getting better. Everyone wants budget cuts until it effects them. Then, not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knotch View Post
    Completely spaced out and forgot about that one, thank you. Added to favorites. It does in a way confirm what I had said though. About $200 billion. I had seen the claims of $5 trillion but it seemed far too convenient and low and behold it was in fact, spin.
    but again, tell me how there was even a dollar in surplus, if the federal debt went up each year? Other than the surplus being spin entirely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL

    but again, tell me how there was even a dollar in surplus, if the federal debt went up each year? Other than the surplus being spin entirely.
    There can be a surplus and debt at the same time. The surplus would be calculated based on debt "payments" due. Not on the entire balance.

    Of course, even in times of surplus our "leaders" never choose to retire debt. It's always easier to spend it. Regardless of party.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahl View Post
    There can be a surplus and debt at the same time. The surplus would be calculated based on debt "payments" due. Not on the entire balance.

    Of course, even in times of surplus our "leaders" never choose to retire debt. It's always easier to spend it. Regardless of party.
    No, thats not true. Surplus in any sort of accounting is "Revenue in vs Expenses Out". You can't make a deficit be a surplus by spin. Either you took in more money than you spent, or you didn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL

    No, thats not true. Surplus in any sort of accounting is "Revenue in vs Expenses Out". You can't make a deficit be a surplus by spin. Either you took in more money than you spent, or you didn't.
    Exactly, "expenses" though are debt payments due. Not the entire debt balance. By your definition almost every corporation in the world is broke. The "surplus" at the time was defined as a budget surplus not a balance sheet surplus. In the budget year they owed less in debt payments than revenue coming in. The key word here is payments.

    I operate on a monthly surplus as I'm able to put money in savings monthly even though I owe a bank for my mortgage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahl View Post
    Exactly, "expenses" though are debt payments due. Not the entire debt balance. By your definition almost every corporation in the world is broke. The "surplus" at the time was defined as a budget surplus not a balance sheet surplus. In the budget year they owed less in debt payments than revenue coming in. The key word here is payments.

    I operate on a monthly surplus as I'm able to put money in savings monthly even though I owe a bank for my mortgage.
    You are thinking about net worth, not surplus or deficit. Surplus has nothing to do with the debt balance or how much you owe. All it has to do with is how much $ comes in vs how much money goes out. What goes out is things like federal paychecks, military expenses, etc as well as the interest payments on the debt. If more goes out than comes in, its a deficit or (in the private world a loss). If more comes in than goes out its a surplus (or in the private world a profit).
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL

    You are thinking about net worth, not surplus or deficit. Surplus has nothing to do with the debt balance or how much you owe. All it has to do with is how much $ comes in vs how much money goes out. What goes out is things like federal paychecks, military expenses, etc as well as the interest payments on the debt. If more goes out than comes in, its a deficit or (in the private world a loss). If more comes in than goes out its a surplus (or in the private world a profit).
    That's exactly what I just said. Lol I think we agree.

    Either way it has little to do with the topic of the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahl View Post
    Until Americans are willing to actually give something up nothings getting better. Everyone wants budget cuts until it effects them. Then, not so much.
    Its a bit more complicated than just budget cuts. There are many policy issues involved along with corporate and political corruption, and unless we fix the core of the problem any budget cut is merely a temporary mask and not a solution.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Not sure it is relevant in anyway to the discussion,but I get a lol out of it.

    http://youtu.be/nK1Z3RQF_TE
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1

    Its a bit more complicated than just budget cuts. There are many policy issues involved along with corporate and political corruption, and unless we fix the core of the problem any budget cut is merely a temporary mask and not a solution.
    I concur!
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    I'm pretty much a libertarian so my side never wins but I'll give my two cents:

    1. I don't see how anyone can call Obama the worst president in history halfway through his term. Just what are you basing that on exactly? He's been in office two years and he's that horrible? Honestly I think anyone who calls someone the "worst president ever" is probably just being completely ignorant. I was against many things that GWB did (and many of the continued things that Obama did) but it is WAY too early to call someone the worst at something. History has a lot to play out to judge the things that these two men have done....Bush even, let alone Obama.

    2. My biggest sadness with Obama is the things he said he would do that he did not: I thought he might change some of the Patriot Act that took away our freedoms, thought he would close Gitmo immediately, thought he would get us out of wars we don't belong in, etc. This has been my biggest sadness with him. I could list many more things he has done that disappointed me. I won't mention some of his spending because I always believed him to be a spender. He didn't really run as someone who didn't believe in government doing more for people.

    3. As for good things he has done: Well I do believe our popularity as a nation has went up. Bush was immensely unpopular across a lot of the world and we were seen as idiots. Obama does appeal to a large amount of people overseas for various reasons. I can list others, but I want to get to my main point in the last paragraph.

    4. I think on the whole Obama has been scrutinized more than any other president in history. A lot of this has to do (obviously) with his race. Things like the birther argument, etc is just not something any other candidate will probably see. A vast majority of Americans HATED him before he did anything. For instance a house near where I live has been flying their flag at half mast since he was elected...this was before he was even sworn in! The vast majority of people I have ever talked to that say they hate him can't pinpoint a reason or say things like "the economy." Some of these people I know directly are in pretty much the exact same situation as they were in 4 years ago. I think the economy struggling is one of the most overblown tales of our time, but that is for another thread. Half the people who mentionthe economy sucking in threads are doing it from their jobs or homes that are air conditioned while taking a break from playing PS3 or Xbox on their flat screen.

    Republicans and Democrats are really the same thing most people just don't want to admit it. Neither side is for small government in the least bit they are just for different forms of big government. They just lie in different ways. Republicans say they are small government, but that's a laugh. Half of them want Christianity taught in schools, gay marriage outlawed, more wars, etc. Democrats will tell lies like they are anti-war and then get into office and don't do anything about the military complex.

    Someone who is truly for small government has no chance of getting elected anyways. And if you really think the country would be much better off with John McCain in office than Barack Obama I'd have to stifle a laugh. My biggest complaints with Obama would be the fact that he hasn't been as socially liberal as I expected him to be. The only thing that changes is the lies politicians make to get elected and that will never change. Like Republicans being all against government health care, but expanding the government health care with the prescription drug program. And it will go on this way for eternity I'm afraid. We will put Republicans in power and get sick of what they do and then we will give the Democrats a shot. Then the same thing will happen and so on and so on.
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    To start Ill give my opinion on statement #1. He is a corporate dictator, he is a anti-constitutional lawyer who extended the patriot act, his birth certificate is a proven fraud, he is establishing a executive dictatorship, his entire family was CIA, and he has connection with the CIA since the early 80's, he is a war monster, he is one blood thirsty beast and has more wars than president Bush, he takes credit on events that were fabricated, he says one thing and does the other, etc....
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    obama has done nothing good as far as i can see...

    and he likes to try to take credit for things he didnt do.....

    IMO, hes filth and only got elected because hes black
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post

    4. I think on the whole Obama has been scrutinized more than any other president in history. A lot of this has to do (obviously) with his race. Things like the birther argument, etc is just not something any other candidate will probably see. A vast majority of Americans HATED him before he did anything. For instance a house near where I live has been flying their flag at half mast since he was elected...this was before he was even sworn in! The vast majority of people I have ever talked to that say they hate him can't pinpoint a reason or say things like "the economy." Some of these people I know directly are in pretty much the exact same situation as they were in 4 years ago. I think the economy struggling is one of the most overblown tales of our time, but that is for another thread. Half the people who mentionthe economy sucking in threads are doing it from their jobs or homes that are air conditioned while taking a break from playing PS3 or Xbox on their flat screen.
    Although I agree that there are race issues, the man has not provided a legitimate birth certificate and to make things worse he fabricated his birth certificate and released it to the public.

    All you have to do is download it directly from the whitehouse and use a photoshop program to split it into multiple layers.

    There is much more to it, but the man is an Indonesian citizen.

    His Indonesian step father who adopted Barry Soetoro (aka Obama) Lolo Soetoro was multi millionare oil guru, and he helped overthrow the Indonesian government which caused the deaths of some 100,000 Indonesians.

    There is much more to his background but this is just for starts.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolo_Soetoro

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indones...nal_Revolution
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    To start Ill give my opinion on statement #1. He is a corporate dictator, he is a anti-constitutional lawyer who extended the patriot act, his birth certificate is a proven fraud, he is establishing a executive dictatorship, his entire family was CIA, and he has connection with the CIA since the early 80's, he is a war monster, he is one blood thirsty beast and has more wars than president Bush, he takes credit on events that were fabricated, he says one thing and does the other, etc....
    For the most part you could say almost all of these things about any politician (which was sort of my point). Other than the conspiracy type theories like his birth certificate and family stuff (which I'm not going to get into here just like in your other thread ) though could you not?

    George W Bush could be called all of those and based on his record so could have John McCain.

    All of those are pretty subjective FWIW, especially at a halfway point in someone's presidency.

    I'm going to reiterate that I'm not interested in getting into all the conspiracy theory stuff. I haven't and won't do the research on that. You're a person who is just very different from me in that regard and it's not something I have the energy or passion to debate.

    My original point was NOT to defend Obama other than the fact to point out that he is probably just as bad as anything on the other side and nothing more/nothing less. You get the same thing whether you go with D or R, just in slightly different tastes of losing your liberty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    For the most part you could say almost all of these things about any politician (which was sort of my point). Other than the conspiracy type theories like his birth certificate and family stuff (which I'm not going to get into here just like in your other thread ) though could you not?

    George W Bush could be called all of those and based on his record so could have John McCain.

    All of those are pretty subjective FWIW, especially at a halfway point in someone's presidency.
    I never said Obama is the worst in history, he is just as blood vicious as many of the rest of them.

    His birth certificate is not a conspiracy theory, its scientifically fake.

    Bush and McCain can rot in hell with Obama some day. They all are the dirtiest, lowliest scum on the planet and they have all so much death and bloodshed on their hands that they have to live with. I dont care what their race is, white, black, that is not the issue, the issue is they are all unconstitutional politicians and murderers.
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    race issues? thats what got him elected in the first place!!!

    he got the minority vote, by fooling people to believe he was gunna pay their bills



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    @ Swollen: Some people like Obama because he's black some people dislike him because he's black. I hardly think any student of history would say he only won the Presidency because he was black. I do think a large part of his criticism is race related in the sense that if a white man had had the same presidency as him so far he wouldn't see as much criticism as he has.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    @ Swollen: Some people like Obama because he's black some people dislike him because he's black. I hardly think any student of history would say he only won the Presidency because he was black. I do think a large part of his criticism is race related in the sense that if a white man had had the same presidency as him so far he wouldn't see as much criticism as he has.
    I think Obama is actually getting far less criticism than Bush (I on the other hand hate both of the equally.) It seems that more people are accepting of the wars because Obama is better at relaying the propaganda messages to the public, reasoning the Bildeberger group had selected him to win the election.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    His birth certificate is not a conspiracy theory, its scientifically fake.
    Just for curiosity sake I googled Obama birth certificate scientifically fake, and here is what the top page brought up....here is one of the "bulleted" points for I guess proving it's fakeness.

    "Take a copy of Obama’s book The Audacity of Hope. Beginning at page 12 and going through page 297, write down the first letter of the first noun on the fourth sentence of the page. You’ll be stunned at the secret message."

    Really?

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama...ertificate.asp

    Anyways, (and seriously) I won't respond to any of the conspiracy theory type stuff from here on out. I've done all that in the past and like with the 9/11 thing I find it a huge waste of time. Clearly we can both find many things that lend credence to one side or the other and these have been hashed out on many other forums. I don't want to get into it. I'd rather read your Anabeta log with my time than debate this
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    @ Swollen: Some people like Obama because he's black some people dislike him because he's black. I hardly think any student of history would say he only won the Presidency because he was black. I do think a large part of his criticism is race related in the sense that if a white man had had the same presidency as him so far he wouldn't see as much criticism as he has.
    well, im not a student of history... im a resident of nj, and its VERY diverse here.... this i do not mind, i have no problem with black people

    - but literally EVERY black person i know (i know alot) voted for obama... and 99% of them have no idea what is going on in the world at all...

    theyre were rallys in every black neighborhood in my area.... and your gunna try to tell me these people didnt elect him because he was black?

    it was at least part of it, and the other part was obamas campaigning... which was obviously the most sucessfull part of his presidency



    if a white man was in the office, he would get JUST AS MUCH criticism as o-bam-bam.

    look at history, every president has had criticism... obama supporters are just opposing the criticism claiming it is race related....


    hes still scum in my book
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post

    Anyways, (and seriously) I won't respond to any of the conspiracy theory type stuff from here on out. I've done all that in the past and like with the 9/11 thing I find it a huge waste of time. Clearly we can both find many things that lend credence to one side or the other and these have been hashed out on many other forums. I don't want to get into it. I'd rather read your Anabeta log with my time than debate this
    Ok my friend, Ill calm down, lol

    Its good you dont jump to conclusions just because I make statements on a board,

    Your a libertarian? How do you feel about Ron Paul running again?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    I think Obama is actually getting far less criticism than Bush (I on the other hand hate both of the equally.) It seems that more people are accepting of the wars because Obama is better at relaying the propaganda messages to the public, reasoning the Bildeberger group had selected him to win the election.
    This I can play with I disagree. I think Obama sees a level of hate two years into his presidency that no one has ever seen. He is well liked by a lot of people, but those that oppose him oppose him with a nature I have never seen before. GWB was certainly disliked and to a large extent, but I think a lot of this was especially evident later in his presidency. The Presidency is a largely thankless job and usually we bitch about the person in power no matter what. I think as his recent numbers have shown Obama will get less popular as his presidency continues. The sheer level of natural hatred I don't think was seen with GWB. Then again I live in a pretty conservative state
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Ok my friend, Ill calm down, lol

    Its good you dont jump to conclusions just because I make statements on a board,

    Your a libertarian? How do you feel about Ron Paul running again?
    I don't care. It's great that he runs because it is fun to listen to him talk (though I don't agree with him on some things) especially at Republican debates, but he has no chance of winning. I do think libertarians on the whole is sorta picking up steam (though I DON'T think the vast majority of tea partiers are libertarian from what I have talked to (seriously Michele Bachmann?!) but he has no chance. I just wish more people would see how hurt we are by a two party system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by swollen87 View Post
    well, im not a student of history... im a resident of nj, and its VERY diverse here.... this i do not mind, i have no problem with black people

    - but literally EVERY black person i know (i know alot) voted for obama... and 99% of them have no idea what is going on in the world at all...

    theyre were rallys in every black neighborhood in my area.... and your gunna try to tell me these people didnt elect him because he was black?

    it was at least part of it, and the other part was obamas campaigning... which was obviously the most sucessfull part of his presidency



    if a white man was in the office, he would get JUST AS MUCH criticism as o-bam-bam.

    look at history, every president has had criticism... obama supporters are just opposing the criticism claiming it is race related....


    hes still scum in my book
    The black guys at my gym dont even consider Obama black, lol shows that it may be more of a regional thing than just color.

    Im sure some people vote white just because their white, and some vote black because their black, etc....

    But there should be other contributing factors such as 8 years of Bush being the top dog of the Republican leadership and being completely disconnected with a large portion of the population.

    I actually voted for Obama, 100% honest, I feel my criticism is quite genuine as everything he has stated in his campaign he has turned his back against.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    This I can play with I disagree. I think Obama sees a level of hate two years into his presidency that no one has ever seen. He is well liked by a lot of people, but those that oppose him oppose him with a nature I have never seen before. GWB was certainly disliked and to a large extent, but I think a lot of this was especially evident later in his presidency. The Presidency is a largely thankless job and usually we bitch about the person in power no matter what. I think as his recent numbers have shown Obama will get less popular as his presidency continues. The sheer level of natural hatred I don't think was seen with GWB. Then again I live in a pretty conservative state

    kansas is 83.8 % white
    and 5.9 % black

    this could be why you see the hatred and not the praising....

    while nj is only 59% white
    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysgaining View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    I don't care. It's great that he runs because it is fun to listen to him talk (though I don't agree with him on some things) especially at Republican debates, but he has no chance of winning. I do think libertarians on the whole is sorta picking up steam (though I DON'T think the vast majority of tea partiers are libertarian from what I have talked to (seriously Michele Bachmann?!) but he has no chance. I just wish more people would see how hurt we are by a two party system.
    I think what happened was Ron Paul actually launched the tea party, next thing you know CNN is portraying Sarah Palin as the leader of the tea party giving public speeches to tea party rallys on national television.

    Its as if the tea party was infiltrated by republicans as a way to levy up and capitalize on a movement at the same time putting the true idea's and leaders of the movement down.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    The black guys at my gym dont even consider Obama black, lol shows that it may be more of a regional thing than just color.

    Im sure some people vote white just because their white, and some vote black because their black, etc....

    But there should be other contributing factors such as 8 years of Bush being the top dog of the Republican leadership and being completely disconnected with a large portion of the population.

    I actually voted for Obama, 100% honest, I feel my criticism is quite genuine as everything he has stated in his campaign he has turned his back against.
    lol at him not being black..

    i feel bad for you voting for abama...
    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysgaining View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by swollen87 View Post
    well, im not a student of history... im a resident of nj, and its VERY diverse here.... this i do not mind, i have no problem with black people

    - but literally EVERY black person i know (i know alot) voted for obama... and 99% of them have no idea what is going on in the world at all...

    theyre were rallys in every black neighborhood in my area.... and your gunna try to tell me these people didnt elect him because he was black?

    it was at least part of it, and the other part was obamas campaigning... which was obviously the most sucessfull part of his presidency



    if a white man was in the office, he would get JUST AS MUCH criticism as o-bam-bam.

    look at history, every president has had criticism... obama supporters are just opposing the criticism claiming it is race related....


    hes still scum in my book
    @ Swollen: Clearly the vast majority of blacks voted for Obama, but keep in mind that is still just 12.5% of the population. And I know a TON of whites who are just as stupid about what's going on in the world who DIDN'T vote for Obama solely because he is black. He couldn't win the election with just the black vote though he obviously carried that by a large margin.

    My point was that a lot of the hate towards him was taking place before he even got into office and a lot of it is less to do with his policies than his skin color. Seriously if people are going to fly the flag at half mast BEFORE someone does ANYTHING I think that shows they don't like something. And I've heard countless people say things like "that's what we get for letting an N word in office."

    This is not to say that I think all his criticism is race related, but I do think things like the rise of some militias and the big fear of him even before he had really settled in was race related.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    I think what happened was Ron Paul actually launched the tea party, next thing you know CNN is portraying Sarah Palin as the leader of the tea party giving public speeches to tea party rallys on national television.

    Its as if the tea party was infiltrated by republicans as a way to levy up and capitalize on a movement at the same time putting the true idea's and leaders of the movement down.
    I vote for Ron Paul along with like 4 other people
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    I vote for Ron Paul along with like 4 other people
    He wont be running as a congressman anymore, if he loses the election (and I expect him to lose, unfortunatly ) then thats pretty much an end of that era.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    @ Swollen: Some people like Obama because he's black some people dislike him because he's black. I hardly think any student of history would say he only won the Presidency because he was black. I do think a large part of his criticism is race related in the sense that if a white man had had the same presidency as him so far he wouldn't see as much criticism as he has.
    I'm sorry but you are sooooooo far off the mark here. He was elected because he was black. Period. A white man with the same upbringing, education and experience as he had would never have made it through the primaries.

    And none of my criticisms of him are based on skin color, i'm about as non-racist as it gets. His poilicies and ideals are crazy, as well as the people he associated with and considers his mentors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    I'm pretty much a libertarian so my side never wins but I'll give my two cents:

    1. I don't see how anyone can call Obama the worst president in history halfway through his term. Just what are you basing that on exactly? He's been in office two years and he's that horrible? Honestly I think anyone who calls someone the "worst president ever" is probably just being completely ignorant. I was against many things that GWB did (and many of the continued things that Obama did) but it is WAY too early to call someone the worst at something. History has a lot to play out to judge the things that these two men have done....Bush even, let alone Obama.
    I dunno, he's created more debt than any other president. He used the money we took on in debt to buy banks, buy General Motors and other assorted socialist/communist things which congress isn't authorized to do. He's changing the definition of rights - in the constitution + bill of rights if you read it the rights are rights against government intrusion in. Now with Obama more has been done to define rights as things the government owes you. He's also been the most adept at making statements that make himself sound like he is compromising and working with republicans while the whole time knowing the democrats in congress won't vote for it and he can pull some minor excuse out of his ass as to what they changed.

    And the very very very worst thing is that he will not veto the whole "super congress" nonsense that is being added into the bills for the debt ceiling. It suddenly throws out our constitution entirely, makes the rank and file of congress useless, and puts all the power into 12 mens hands.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...tml?1311626737
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'm sorry but you are sooooooo far off the mark here. He was elected because he was black. Period. A white man with the same upbringing, education and experience as he had would never have made it through the primaries.

    And none of my criticisms of him are based on skin color, i'm about as non-racist as it gets. His poilicies and ideals are crazy, as well as the people he associated with and considers his mentors.
    Are you talking about his policies and ideals that he campaigned on? Or the ones he actually engaged in? Because the 2 are 2 totally opposite extremes.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Are you talking about his policies and ideals that he campaigned on? Or the ones he actually engaged in? Because the 2 are 2 totally opposite extremes.
    both really, because they both were the extremes
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    both really, because they both were the extremes
    Thats what I thought you would say, lol

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post

    And the very very very worst thing is that he will not veto the whole "super congress" nonsense that is being added into the bills for the debt ceiling. It suddenly throws out our constitution entirely, makes the rank and file of congress useless, and puts all the power into 12 mens hands.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...tml?1311626737
    Lets not forget this "constitutional lawyer" extended the Patriot act, is establishing an executive dictatorship w/ countless executive orders and even went to war with Libya without consulting congress.

    This "Super Congress" appears to only be icing on the cake to hand the country over to the private entities.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL

    I dunno, he's created more debt than any other president. He used the money we took on in debt to buy banks, buy General Motors and other assorted socialist/communist things which congress isn't authorized to do. He's changing the definition of rights - in the constitution + bill of rights if you read it the rights are rights against government intrusion in. Now with Obama more has been done to define rights as things the government owes you. He's also been the most adept at making statements that make himself sound like he is compromising and working with republicans while the whole time knowing the democrats in congress won't vote for it and he can pull some minor excuse out of his ass as to what they changed.

    And the very very very worst thing is that he will not veto the whole "super congress" nonsense that is being added into the bills for the debt ceiling. It suddenly throws out our constitution entirely, makes the rank and file of congress useless, and puts all the power into 12 mens hands.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...tml?1311626737
    This is such a tired argument. Tarp and the auto bailouts were initiated under Bush bro. Now, Obama has done a horrible job of improving that situation but pinning the while thing to him is silly.

    Obama has continued Bush's over reach and expansion of powers of the president. Bush created the Patriot Act which is a direct violation of rights. Obama extended it. Bush lied us into a war. Obama is ignoring existing law getting us into another.

    I voted for both of them. They both suck. But...I still believe the other option presented in both cases was worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahl View Post
    This is such a tired argument. Tarp and the auto bailouts were initiated under Bush bro. Now, Obama has done a horrible job of improving that situation but pinning the while thing to him is silly.

    Obama has continued Bush's over reach and expansion of powers of the president. Bush created the Patriot Act which is a direct violation of rights. Obama extended it. Bush lied us into a war. Obama is ignoring existing law getting us into another.

    I voted for both of them. They both suck. But...I still believe the other option presented in both cases was worse.
    What your stating in the first statement you make is what I always trying telling people, there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans and this country is hijacked by a 1 party duopoly system. When it comes to big issues they all put on a show on TV, and when the doors close they all shake hands and make deals.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahl View Post
    This is such a tired argument. Tarp and the auto bailouts were initiated under Bush bro. Now, Obama has done a horrible job of improving that situation but pinning the while thing to him is silly.

    Obama has continued Bush's over reach and expansion of powers of the president. Bush created the Patriot Act which is a direct violation of rights. Obama extended it. Bush lied us into a war. Obama is ignoring existing law getting us into another.

    I voted for both of them. They both suck. But...I still believe the other option presented in both cases was worse.
    TARP + the bailouts were done by the democrat controlled congress, not by Bush. Obama is just an extension of them. And Obama's 800+ billion stimulus package was all his.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    TARP + the bailouts were done by the democrat controlled congress, not by Bush. Obama is just an extension of them. And Obama's 800+ billion stimulus package was all his.
    I thought Bush started the bailouts actually and had congress approve of them. There were many bailouts perhaps we all got lost here, lol

    for example,
    http://articles.cnn.com/2008-09-24/p..._s=PM:POLITICS
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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