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Muliculturism has Failed

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    Muliculturism has Failed


    In Medieval times, France didn't have a reputation for surrendering or running away. They were very respectable. Today most people have no respect for the French. They have no culture left, thanks to multiculturalism. Will America wise up?
    Here's an article where the French president sees his culture gone.
    Multiculturalism has failed, says French president - Yahoo! News

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    Quote Originally Posted by omni View Post
    In Medieval times, France didn't have a reputation for surrendering or running away. They were very respectable. Today most people have no respect for the French. They have no culture left, thanks to multiculturalism. Will America wise up?
    Here's an article where the French president sees his culture gone.
    Multiculturalism has failed, says French president - Yahoo! News
    My question to you is what the hell does this have to do with America seeing as unlike France or Germany, this country was not built by one particular culture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastone View Post
    My question to you is what the hell does this have to do with America seeing as unlike France or Germany, this country was not built by one particular culture.
    There was still the established american conservative culture, which has slowly been dismantled by the progressives. Also the huge influx of hispanic illegal aliens who have piles of children once they manage to cross the border has been continuing to push a change in the established US culture.
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    France's spectacular decline is not due to "multi-culturalism." It is the inevitable result of decades of socialism/liberalism/progressivism. (Those are very bad words.) When you promise all citizens "cradle to grave" entitlements (which, btw, no socio-economic system can possibly deliver), you remove all incentive for them to work hard and think hard. They become lazy, unproductive, whiny little leeches, rioting in the streets when you take away one of their toys.
    As for the American situation, multi-culturalism is our greatest asset. In fact, it is our identity. We have always been (and shall continue to be) a melting pot of cultures, religions, ideas, languages, even morals. We are The Great Experiment. And we should be proud of this.
    All life on Earth (not just human) has always been shaped by the one unchangeable law: survival of the fittest. European socialism has left them decidedly unfit. We mustn't follow them down that path. And to blame "multi-culturalism" is a very transparent cop out. Don't fall for it.
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    I think another aspect of the problem is that the proponents of socialism/liberalism/progressivism believe that ALL Americans must completely embrace the influx of immigrants and new cultures. They push the idea that these concepts are 1 in the same. Those that don't embrace this are branded racists, bigots, or...OMG....conservatives.

    But, they overlook another human factor. Think of a family situation with a step or adoptive child (aka immigrants). If the family provider (aka the government) goes overboard catering to and pampering the new child, while at the same time neglecting and taking away from the bioligical children (the native citizens), the biological children may feel a bit of resentment. I know I would if I was working hard and paying my taxes so that a huge amount of money could be spent on freeloaders. Oh wait....

    This is not to say that all immigrants are freeloaders. Many work quite hard in fact. But, those that refuse to assimiliate and exploit the system cause multiple issues in both cultural and economic ways.
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    Just don't make the assumption that all these freeloaders are the "step children." The vast majority of them are biological children (to use your analogy).
    Not to mention the fact that we all came into this "family" from other places. And for the same reason they come today: economic opportunity.
    [Yes, I realize I'm that rare Conservative who is pro-immigration. (Although George W. was the same.) I just wish we could bring more order to the situation by securing the border, and streamling the Naturalization process. And granting Amnesty/Citizenship to the vast majority of "illegals" who are gainfully employed (and willing to learn English) and deporting the relatively few who aren't.]
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJ2x View Post
    Just don't make the assumption that all these freeloaders are the "step children." The vast majority of them are biological children (to use your analogy).
    I'm not making the assumption. But, I was paralleling the examples given in the article linked here.

    "My answer is clearly yes, it is a failure," he said in a television interview when asked about the policy which advocates that host societies welcome and foster distinct cultural and religious immigrant groups.
    My family immigrated here a long time ago. And I am VERY aware that we have a huge amount of native freeloaders but they aren't the focus of this article.

    And, we did not "ALL" come here from other places. My wife is 1/4 native American. Her paternal relatives are the original Americans.
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    And even Native Americans came here from somewhere (Siberia, via the Bering Strait, I believe.) The point is, it's human nature to be explorers; to seek a better life around the next corner. And it's the bravest and the strongest who seek, find, and prosper in this "survival of the fittest" game of Life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJ2x View Post
    And granting Amnesty/Citizenship to the vast majority of "illegals" who are gainfully employed (and willing to learn English) and deporting the relatively few who aren't.]
    --The World, According To J2x
    I can't understand anyone who would say that. You are going to reward the people who broke the law to be here, while penalizing the better qualified people from around the globe who have been working for sometimes years to be able to immigrate here legally. Its as ridiculous as our taxation system.
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    People always undermine the driving forces of nature and human motivation. As much as people want to label everything as "bad" and "good", it trivializes the fact that we are an animal species and the drive to improve the environment for our genetic code will prevail in most situations. Obviously we have higher cognitive functioning, but that only allows us to more readily manipulte our situation for our own benefit. We call billionaires that give a million dollars to charity philanthropists, but if morality and prosocial behavior was really what they saught, wouldn't they give away 3/4ths and still live comfortably? As people we love black and white, Greed, Stealing, Cheating, are all "bad". But aren't these merely evolutionary mechanisms to enhance our lot and progress? Whatver you believe the origin of our species is, these are all things that need to be taken into consideration when making government programs. As applicable to immigration, I'm not convinced that we lay claim to this "land" and because it is obviously a much superior environment for improving your lot than Mexico, I think that the only way to control immigration and secure the border is to allow the naturalization of these illegal immigrants that work and could contribute to the economy. Otherwise, people will continue to cross regardless of potential consequences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgassen15 View Post
    As applicable to immigration, I'm not convinced that we lay claim to this "land" and because it is obviously a much superior environment for improving your lot than Mexico, I think that the only way to control immigration and secure the border is to allow the naturalization of these illegal immigrants that work and could contribute to the economy. Otherwise, people will continue to cross regardless of potential consequences.
    totally psycho. How will that control immigration or secure the border? It won't, it will just unleash the floodgates of even more illegal immigrants.

    Sometimes it amazes me how people think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I can't understand anyone who would say that. You are going to reward the people who broke the law to be here, while penalizing the better qualified people from around the globe who have been working for sometimes years to be able to immigrate here legally. Its as ridiculous as our taxation system.
    How many "laws" did our brave forefathers break to be here? Laws are written by men. Flawed men. And Man's laws are always superceded by Nature's Laws. Intelligent men see reality, and are willing to reshape their laws accordingly.
    I work in the hospitality industry in Southern California. We could not run our hotel without the absolutely wonderful Mexican people (legal, illegal-- who knows?) who do the jobs that "real Americans" are unwilling to do. The most impressive people I've met since I moved to Orange County are Mexican. Period. I want these fine, brave people to have a legal and reasonably streamlined path to citizenship. They are not flaunting our laws in any way. In fact, they are willing to put themselves in legal jeopardy to secure a better way of life for their children. (Who will, btw, learn English, within one generation, even if their parents don't.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    totally psycho. How will that control immigration or secure the border? It won't, it will just unleash the floodgates of even more illegal immigrants.

    Sometimes it amazes me how people think.
    It amazes me that after the failure of the prohibition, the War on Drugs, etc., we continue to believe that this "crackdown" attitude is effective. We could transfer the Great Wall to secure the border, but people will still find a way. After the War on Drugs, we got a period of pseudoscience when the governenment tried to deter everyone from certain drug use, now as they finally wise up they're utilizing some drugs for clinical purposes and in the meantime we incarcerated 25% of the world's prisoners and drained funds. During the prohibition alcohol consumption hardly decline, we made a bunch of mob bosses rich, and it was repealed partially because we couldn't secure the entry of alcohol from the border. How is that any different from what we are talking about now. Simply substitute alcohol for drugs. In my opinon, the biggest problem with our borders is preventing the influx of drugs. Other than legalizing drugs so that Americans purchase purely domestically and there isn't a market for drugs from Mexico, (which would also take the strain off of prisons, but that's another issue entirely) the only way to prevent this is to secure the border. What better way to filter out criminals from people merely trying to find a new lot than to naturalize citizens that work and can contribute to the economy. If we did that, the only people illegally crossing would be the drug smugglers, which in turn would relieve the budget and allow border patrol agents to be chasing a much smaller amount of people. Don't kid yourself, I've spent a lot of time in Mexico and know several people that live by a border there. There is a lot of money to be made to help people cross and they are constantly doing it. Right now it is as simple as a text to tell them when to go. We can't just line up a row of people from one side of the country to the next with shotguns and AK's, we have to be rational about policy.
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    Interesting perspective, jgassen-- one which I will consider...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgassen15 View Post
    It amazes me that after the failure of the prohibition, the War on Drugs, etc., we continue to believe that this "crackdown" attitude is effective. We could transfer the Great Wall to secure the border, but people will still find a way. After the War on Drugs, we got a period of pseudoscience when the governenment tried to deter everyone from certain drug use, now as they finally wise up they're utilizing some drugs for clinical purposes and in the meantime we incarcerated 25% of the world's prisoners and drained funds. During the prohibition alcohol consumption hardly decline, we made a bunch of mob bosses rich, and it was repealed partially because we couldn't secure the entry of alcohol from the border. How is that any different from what we are talking about now. Simply substitute alcohol for drugs. In my opinon, the biggest problem with our borders is preventing the influx of drugs. Other than legalizing drugs so that Americans purchase purely domestically and there isn't a market for drugs from Mexico, (which would also take the strain off of prisons, but that's another issue entirely) the only way to prevent this is to secure the border. What better way to filter out criminals from people merely trying to find a new lot than to naturalize citizens that work and can contribute to the economy. If we did that, the only people illegally crossing would be the drug smugglers, which in turn would relieve the budget and allow border patrol agents to be chasing a much smaller amount of people. Don't kid yourself, I've spent a lot of time in Mexico and know several people that live by a border there. There is a lot of money to be made to help people cross and they are constantly doing it. Right now it is as simple as a text to tell them when to go. We can't just line up a row of people from one side of the country to the next with shotguns and AK's, we have to be rational about policy.

    No, because alcohol is a product you consume, not a person who will breed more children, raise the population, while the majority of them are in low end uneducated careers and relying more on government assistance than they pay in taxes. You are comparing apples and oranges.
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    Look at what the penalty is in Mexico itself for being an illegal alien, or granting aid to one and then come back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Look at what the penalty is in Mexico itself for being an illegal alien, or granting aid to one and then come back.
    i'm not sure what it is, but I doubt it's enforced at all. These discussions our great though and whether they are consructive or not isn't clear, but they're at the very least educational. I wish everyone would get on the internet and just talk to people like this instead of voting without any research. My mom said she wouldn't vote for a president that was pro-Abortion, but when I asked her what procedures were used in abortion, if she knew anything else about the candidate, etc. she didn't know. Kinda sad but I think that sorta thing's the trend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    No, because alcohol is a product you consume, not a person who will breed more children, raise the population, while the majority of them are in low end uneducated careers and relying more on government assistance than they pay in taxes. You are comparing apples and oranges.
    true, I was more or less trying to make the generalization of the difficulty of border control.
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    Our founding fathers weren't US born. They were from Europe and wanted a better place for people to live. I don't have a problem with any race of people migrating to the US, but there are legal ways to go about it. I'm against any race of unknown people moving here. We're a country of immigrants. I have relatives that came here legally and get upset that they stood in line for the "American dream", learned the English language and laws because they WANTED to be an American while some people just move in.
    I'm glad to see other Americans around me that cook other types of food, have other religions, and speak English. We have a set of laws that Americans vote on and have respect for. We have values. American values, and in my opinion, if you don't respect the laws that my family had to obey to become an American, then you're disrespecting my father and grandparents.
    The most disrespecting thing that I see on a daily basis is a different national flag being waved. This is America. We have an American flag. Americans from all over the world have fought and died for this country and were buried with OUR flag, not the flag of their ancestors.
    Here are some of the legal requirements of becoming an American that are important to me...

    You must be of good moral character. You cannot have been charged or convicted of any crime for the five years prior to your naturalization application if you are single, or for the three years prior to your naturalization application if you are married to a U.S. citizen.
    You must also be able to read, write, and speak English in order to qualify for naturalization. If you are not able to read, write, or speak English then there are ways to get around this last requirement. If you have a medically verifiable condition that impairs your ability to learn English then you are also exempt from this naturalization requirement.
    A firm understanding of U.S. history and government is the sixth requirement for naturalization.
    The final requirement to qualify for naturalization will take place after you have met all of the above requirements, and it is to take the Oath of Allegiance. This oath states that you will support and defend the U.S. Constitution, obey the law, renounce your allegiance to other countries’ governments, and that you will bear arms for the U.S. Armed Forces, or perform services for the American government if circumstances demand it. If the final statement of this oath goes against your fundamental religious beliefs and you are opposed to bearing arms for the Armed Forces, then you may be allowed to take a modified oath of allegiance that does not require you to vow to bear arms or fight in the U.S. Armed Forces.

    We are Americans for a reason. Some of us weren't born here but have assimilated into OUR culture, learned OUR language and will die for the freedoms OUR culture provides. Our dead soldiers didn't die for illegal immigration. They fought for America.
    Last edited by omni; 02-15-2011 at 10:04 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgassen15 View Post
    true, I was more or less trying to make the generalization of the difficulty of border control.
    Just because something is difficult is not a good reason to simply ignore it or not try. Prohibition was retarded. Trying to keep people coming across our borders illegally is not. There are far too many reasons to list but some of those posted by omni above are great as are terrorism and the financial drain that illegals are placing on tax payers and every level of government.
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    Well ,i do believe that we need a control on the border,but we are humans ,we moved all over the world,north,south ,across the oceans is just a human thing,there is always going to be inmigrants,period!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post
    Just because something is difficult is not a good reason to simply ignore it or not try. Prohibition was retarded. Trying to keep people coming across our borders illegally is not. There are far too many reasons to list but some of those posted by omni above are great as are terrorism and the financial drain that illegals are placing on tax payers and every level of government.
    you obviously have a point with terrorism, but as I stated before this would be lumped in with drug smugglers and not having to worry about finding and prosecuting illegals who truly want to come over and work would free up more border patrol agents to prevent terrorists and drug smugglers from crossing. Also, historically terroristic acts on America have come from our own citizens, McvVeigh and The Unibomber, or via Plane, not from the Mexican border. What you are neglecting is that many of the immigrants have sustainable income and if they were properly taxed, they wouldn't be straining the economy, but helping to facilitate it's recovery since they wouldn't be sending their money back to Mexico, but contributing to our economy. I'm not saying we let any schlub over, or even that all of those over here should be granted citizenship, but aliens that have a sustainable income can contribute to our recovery shoudl be allowed to.


    And difficult in this situation seems synonymous with impossible. Have we really made any progress? I'm all for gutting it out and being headstrong, but I think we're approaching this issue the wrong way.

    Again, just my opinion... valid points from both of you guys.
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    i'm out, this is why I only get on the politics forum like once every couple months, these exchanges go on forever... good discussion guys
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgassen15 View Post
    What you are neglecting is that many of the immigrants have sustainable income and if they were properly taxed, they wouldn't be straining the economy, but helping to facilitate it's recovery since they wouldn't be sending their money back to Mexico, but contributing to our economy..
    LOL....no, I'm not neglecting it. That's why I referenced it above And, that's a damn big IF. There's WAY more to it than just taxes. But, I digress.
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    As far as illegal immigration, I'll break it down on a bodybuilding board for bodybuilders.
    If there's a water fountain nice, cold and refreshing with a line to get a drink, and a guy cuts in front of everyone to take a sip, guess whats going to happen. A black eye from some guys or people yelling to make him go to the back of the line. I don't see someone in the line standing up for him and saying maybe he deserves the water. The water's free just stand in line- it's the same for immigrants of any race.
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    OK tough guys-- It's easy to say "kick em all out and lock down the border." But considering there are 5-10 million of them already here (and without them, major sectors of our economy would collapse), my challenge to you is this: come up with a creative and fair way to allow them to stay. Take your time; impress me...
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    No, because alcohol is a product you consume, not a person who will breed more children, raise the population, while the majority of them are in low end uneducated careers and relying more on government assistance than they pay in taxes. You are comparing apples and oranges.
    E, you know as well as I do, that a crackdown per se will not work because it is half-a$$ed. Additionally because many of those in power get more votes and retain their power the more that are here. There is money to be made by allowing this...and it will continue to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJ2x View Post
    OK tough guys-- It's easy to say "kick em all out and lock down the border." But considering there are 5-10 million of them already here (and without them, major sectors of our economy would collapse), my challenge to you is this: come up with a creative and fair way to allow them to stay. Take your time; impress me...
    There are more than 14 million people on unemployment right now who are actual US citizens with a right to be here. If all the illegals disappeared it would likely lower unemployment.

    There isn't a fair way to allow them to stay, as its unfair to nice educated useful people from all the other countries on the planet that want to immigrate here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    E, you know as well as I do, that a crackdown per se will not work because it is half-a$$ed. Additionally because many of those in power get more votes and retain their power the more that are here. There is money to be made by allowing this...and it will continue to do so.
    Well, its just as you say, a half assed crackdown won't work. Establish a simple system - once deported if you are ever found illegally in the US again its an instant death sentence by border patrol. Then build a real wall, have it set up with automated machine guns to shoot whoever tries to cross.

    Yes they have a right to live, they also have a right to stay in their own country. Our government is empowered to do 2 things by the constitution, regulate interstate commerce and protect our borders. Its amazing how much additional crap they try to do, when they can't get protect the borders right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    There are more than 14 million people on unemployment right now who are actual US citizens with a right to be here. If all the illegals disappeared it would likely lower unemployment.

    There isn't a fair way to allow them to stay, as its unfair to nice educated useful people from all the other countries on the planet that want to immigrate here.
    OK Eric. If you refuse to let them stay; if you're convinced that people are willing to come off unemployment to pick our strawberries and clean our toilets for minimum wage... how do you propose to implement this master plan of yours? Exactly how do you intend to round up 5-10 million Mexicans, and ship them back across the border?
    And why this hatred towards Mexicans? Did a brown person run over your dog when you were a wee lad? Do you feel the same disdain towards blacks? Gays? Women? Jews? I'm just asking...
    My parents are "nice, educated, useful" and super-white people, but they made 6 babies. Does this qualify as a "pile" of children? Maybe it's not too late to send them back to Ireland...
    mw2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJ2x View Post
    I work in the hospitality industry in Southern California. We could not run our hotel without the absolutely wonderful Mexican people (legal, illegal-- who knows?) who do the jobs that "real Americans" are unwilling to do. The most impressive people I've met since I moved to Orange County are Mexican. Period. I want these fine, brave people to have a legal and reasonably streamlined path to citizenship. They are not flaunting our laws in any way. In fact, they are willing to put themselves in legal jeopardy to secure a better way of life for their children. (Who will, btw, learn English, within one generation, even if their parents don't.)
    Your industry is a huge part of the problem. The notion that they do jobs Americans "aren't willing to do" is just plain false the truth is industries like yours take full advantage of the opprotunity to pay illegals a substandard wage that a citizen would not accept thus increasing their own profit margins. Try telling all this to people who work in the healthcare industry whose facilities struggle to stay economically viable because illegals use the hiospital ER as their own personal doctors office for themselves and their children. They know that they cannot be turned away and take advantage of this knowing full well they will never pay one cent of what they owe. I do not call that "wonderful" or "impressive".
    They are "flaunting?" our laws immediately upon entering the country illegally. My wife is Mexican and the first generation of her family born here and she is even opposed to the current immigration situation, probably because her parents came here on work visas and natuarlized the right way instead of running across the border in the middle of the night in clear violation of American law.

    Quote Originally Posted by omni View Post
    We are Americans for a reason. Some of us weren't born here but have assimilated into OUR culture, learned OUR language and will die for the freedoms OUR culture provides. Our dead soldiers didn't die for illegal immigration. They fought for America.
    This is an extremely important point as far as I'm concerned. When our forefathers came here they not only did so the right way, they assimilated themselves into American culture because they wanted to be Americans. Immigrants no longer care to assimilate, they want to take advantage of the land of opprotunity but maintain a seperate cultural identity. I say assimilate or get the hell out.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImJ2x View Post
    my challenge to you is this: come up with a creative and fair way to allow them to stay. Take your time; impress me...
    This post is just silly! Why should anyone undertake this challenge? They are called "illegal" immigrants for a reason they are criminals who entered the country in defiance of our laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Well, its just as you say, a half assed crackdown won't work. Establish a simple system - once deported if you are ever found illegally in the US again its an instant death sentence by border patrol. Then build a real wall, have it set up with automated machine guns to shoot whoever tries to cross.
    Strong union! I'm not sure I would go that far but it sure would make you think twice about running across the border illegally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BUCKNUTS View Post
    Your industry is a huge part of the problem. The notion that they do jobs Americans "aren't willing to do" is just plain false the truth is industries like yours take full advantage of the opprotunity to pay illegals a substandard wage that a citizen would not accept thus increasing their own profit margins.
    Just recently a young man threw up in our lobby bathroom. It was awful; literally everywhere, on the floor and every wall. And the smell was quickly filling the lobby. Before I even had to ask, our Mexican houseman was in there cleaning it up. God bless him. What wage would we have to pay you to clean that mess? Is there such a wage? Or would you just quit? Not all our housemen are Mexicans, but it's only the Mexicans who actually clean the restrooms. The others just plain won't.
    And how many non-hispanic applicants do we get for our housekeeper positions? Zero.
    You can stick your head in the sand and pretend we don't need that portion of the labor force to run America, but we absolutely do. We need them as much as they need us.
    mw2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJ2x View Post
    OK Eric. If you refuse to let them stay; if you're convinced that people are willing to come off unemployment to pick our strawberries and clean our toilets for minimum wage... how do you propose to implement this master plan of yours? Exactly how do you intend to round up 5-10 million Mexicans, and ship them back across the border?
    And why this hatred towards Mexicans? Did a brown person run over your dog when you were a wee lad? Do you feel the same disdain towards blacks? Gays? Women? Jews? I'm just asking...
    My parents are "nice, educated, useful" and super-white people, but they made 6 babies. Does this qualify as a "pile" of children? Maybe it's not too late to send them back to Ireland...
    You implement the master plan by actually doing it. Not by talking about it, not by making half ass raids, not by placing them in detention centers for time while you work out what to do with them. But by throwing them on buses and trains, and taking them back over the border and leaving them there. And by making the penalty for returning a death sentence. If you want to say a death sentence isn't a deterrent, thats fine, but they won't be crossing the border a third time.

    Your parents came here legally, so the number of kids they had is irrelevant. I have no hatred towards mexicans at all.

    I have disgust for people who think that because they illegally cross a border they have a right to the benefits of being a US citizen. There is and always has been a legal way to come into the US and become a naturalized citizen, and I have a great respect for anyone of any group who does that. I see no reason why 11+ million mexican citizen who committed a crime to be here should be given a preference over the also deserving immigrants around the globe who are making the effort to legally cross the border.
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    Throwing millions of people on buses and trains (assuming you can find them) is ludicrous. How much money are you willing to spend to eradicate a large and productive portion of our labor force?
    mw2012
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    And you're honestly willing to kill anyone attempting to cross the border? Would you agree to non-lethal means of enforcement?
    mw2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJ2x View Post
    Throwing millions of people on buses and trains (assuming you can find them) is ludicrous. How much money are you willing to spend to eradicate a large and productive portion of our labor force?
    Allowing criminals to remain in our country just because they've been here a while is ludicrous. I'd spend as much as it takes to remove the criminals from our country, and follow our country's laws. If cost was relevant to dealing with a crime, then no murder or robbery would ever get convicted as the court costs and investigative costs are ridiculous.

    "In 1996, it cost Washington state, on average, $23,279 to prosecute a felony and $593 to prosecute a misdemeanor."

    So should washington have stopped prosecuting people who stole a car (grand theft auto, a felony) where the car was recovered because it was ludicrous to spend more than the value of the car new to prosecute it? thats not including any jail time for the convictee. Using your logic, it would be ludicrous to prosecute it. It surely won't cost $25k per illegal immigrant to send them home to the country where they are a citizen and have the right to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJ2x View Post
    And you're honestly willing to kill anyone attempting to cross the border? Would you agree to non-lethal means of enforcement?
    I am willing to kill them, its the ultimate deterrent. if we could find a non-lethal deterrent that would work thats fine, but short of building a 30 foot electric fence topped with barbed wire, I doubt we can. And we'd need more nukes to power the electric fence
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    Your wall would cost a fortune. Enough buses and trains to move that many people would cost even more. It would absolutely dwarf whatever money we spend prosecuting car thieves. Would we raise taxes (alot) to pay for it? And then, like I said, we're sabotaging our own economy. I can't imagine an America without the contributions these hard-working people make to our society. Would the produce section at the grocery store be empty? Or would the unemployed be willing to give up free money to go pick lettuce in the fields? And at what wage? Are you ready to pay $15 for a head of lettuce?
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    See thats the amazing thing, supply vs demand really works. Would it cripple our economy? No, of course not. Things would adjust, as they always do and in the end it would work just fine.

    I can certainly easily imagine an america without the contributions of people who are here illegally. And thats of any race or color, there are areas where there are pretty huge amounts of asian illegals, and people who have overstayed student or work visa, etc. We issue those visas, we track them, we track addresses of the people on them, yet when they expire does INS normally even go talk to them? Nope, we just hope they go back on their own.
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    We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I see them as an asset to our country; you see them as a liability. But I've been awake all night (working on something awesome), and I need to get some sleep. Peace...
    mw2012
  

  
 

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