Muliculturism has Failed

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    I would rather have our teens taking the jobs of the illegals and cancel unemployment benefits forcing all citizens to work instead of having open borders. It is the governments responsibility to defend our borders. It should be a military zone. Its not just Mexicans crossing .

    http://www.thehotjoints.com/2010/05/...er-in-arizona/

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...4d11f4fe3a.421

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    Quote Originally Posted by omni View Post
    I would rather have our teens taking the jobs of the illegals and cancel unemployment benefits forcing all citizens to work instead of having open borders. It is the governments responsibility to defend our borders. It should be a military zone. Its not just Mexicans crossing .

    http://www.thehotjoints.com/2010/05/...er-in-arizona/

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...4d11f4fe3a.421
    Good points omni. LOL....I can't rep you again yet.

    Just a few clarifications that I believe need to be shared.

    "Immigrant" does not automatically mean a bad person.

    "Illegal immigrant" is a bad person by the very definition of the term. If they come to the US illegally to work, they are committing multiple felonies to do so. If a US citizen is convicted of an equivalent crime, they lose the right to vote, own firearms and who knows what the hell else. And yeah, I know that fruit will go up, dishes won't get washed, houses won't get framed etc etc. But, there has got to be a better and safer way to allow these people to work here and pay income taxes.

    Being a conservative does not mean you are a racist or that you are culturally insensitive.
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    This is a long article but worth reading. Illegal Aliens - America's
    21st Century Slave Class
    http://www.rense.com/general72/21st.htm

    While I was reading this, I was wondering if the legal immigrants were working side by side in the same jobs as the illegal immigrants. If they are, then I see a solution to the "who's going to pick our vegetables" argument.
    Another thing I was thinking about is...Why doesn't the Mexican government take care of their own people? They have cheap labor. Why can't they design a car, tv , cell phone or appliances? They can open schools to educate the kids and then colleges. The Mexican government change things.
    Maybe instead of guarding our boarders, we should expand our borders all the way through South America. The first new buildings could be large prisons for the gangs and drug cartels. Imagine all the roads, buildings, farming, new industry and vacation spots we could have all with cheap labor. All the cheap labor would be taxed and America would thrive again. Most Democrats and Liberals are OK with cheap labor from illegal immigrats anyway so why not expand and make everyone happy. All the Mexican people would be happy to have America come to them. It would be years before they realized we only wanted them for cheap labor...kind of like slaves.(tongue in cheek)
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    Multiculturalism never worked.
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    From the United Kingdom to France to Spain to Germany, leaders or former leaders have decried multiculturalism as a poisonous experiment for their nations.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...e-melting-pot/
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    I'm not as sold on the dangers of multiculturalism... but it does appear that Europe walks on egg-shells around Islam..maybe residual fear from the Ottoman days


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    Multiculturalism is quite obviously a failure anywhere you go. You can't have multiple groups who think and act differently and expect them to live peacefully among each other. The very definition of multiculturalism can be summed up as "cluster-fck of beliefs."

    Read the US Constitution. If you agree with it, stay in the States. If you don't, you shouldn't be here. - The United States Culture is the United States Constitution; the Supreme Law of the Land. It is NOT a living document. It is NOT flexible.

    So many ignorant citizens believe the Constitution to be this massive rule book for their lives when in fact it's a small, almost pamphlet size article that says what the government cannot do.

    Case Law has completely fcked up our constitution and has made it completely unrecognizable. It's almost as if they've copied a cassette tape, and made a copy of the copy, and then a copy of that copy, and so on to where the instruments and lyrics can't even be made out anymore.
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    Multiculteralism does seem to throw a wrench in things. Its one thing to stick in groups and people who speak your natural language when your a first generation immigrant. From what i understand (and have heard directly from my grandma) the immigrants that came here through ellis island wanted to be american. Initially they only knew there culture and language, but the urge to become american is something most of todays immigrants lack. I know hispanics born in america that can barely speak english. In contrast my grandma's mother would only speak english to her children, she refused to let them learn her native language because they were americans now. Todays immigrants run around waving their native coutries flag, talking down the country they are living in, the one that provides them and most likely their entire extended family back home a means of survival. Wtf?
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    So yes, i'd rather pay 15$ for a head of lettuce than get a cheap one pick by someone who hates my country. i'm sure all our food prices would go up, but atleast the money would stay in the US instead of being western unioned to south america.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    Multiculturalism is quite obviously a failure anywhere you go. You can't have multiple groups who think and act differently and expect them to live peacefully among each other. The very definition of multiculturalism can be summed up as "cluster-fck of beliefs."

    Read the US Constitution. If you agree with it, stay in the States. If you don't, you shouldn't be here. - The United States Culture is the United States Constitution; the Supreme Law of the Land. It is NOT a living document. It is NOT flexible.

    So many ignorant citizens believe the Constitution to be this massive rule book for their lives when in fact it's a small, almost pamphlet size article that says what the government cannot do.

    Case Law has completely fcked up our constitution and has made it completely unrecognizable. It's almost as if they've copied a cassette tape, and made a copy of the copy, and then a copy of that copy, and so on to where the instruments and lyrics can't even be made out anymore.
    Speaking of the constituion i'm confused where "the right to bear arms" became the right to keep one only in your house in a gun safe and never actually 'bear'(carry) it?
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    I will now never support anything from Utah. Irish Cannon has it right, case law is screwing up the constitution. Utah Grants Amnesty to Illegals. Check out this link...

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...y-to-illegals/
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    There was still the established american conservative culture, which has slowly been dismantled by the progressives. Also the huge influx of hispanic illegal aliens who have piles of children once they manage to cross the border has been continuing to push a change in the established US culture.

    Hi, everyone. This is my first post and I'd like to say I feel glad to be joining the ranks. I find this forum very interesting for several reasons:

    A) Most people on here wouldn't be considered fat, and or lazy which has pretty much become some sort of standard in America... it's nice to connect with people that share my values in basic health consciousness.

    B) This forum makes me think of steroids which is ummm.... not PC, but is structured in such a fashion as to promote intelligence, health, and sensibility (and from what I've seen so far doesn't even promote steroid usage but to be honest I haven't had the chance to examine the forum well enough). Awesome, now if only we can all get marijuana legalized too .

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    Now moving on to your quote ImJ2x, sorry I raped the thread haha.

    Obviously, you aren't the type of person that needs to be corrected, I've already seen this in plenty of your well written responses, but I cant help but notice your remark on latin people. Without calling you names you don't deserve to be called, I have to poke a little fun at you. I'm one of three children my mother had when she legally entered the United States from the Dominican Republic. I'm 24, an entrepreneur, a veteran, I live in NYC, and I'm finishing up my bachelors. When you discuss The Great Experiment, I want you to imagine a case study such as mine. A Chicago born native that's seen race relations between blacks and whites evolve over my lifetime.

    From my experience you have 2 different types of whites, those that still feel bad about racism, and inequality, and those that are defensive about it. The ones that feel bad tend to overcompensate i.e. "whites can never say nigga" considering how popular the word is in mainstream media, considering how many white people buy albums from black celebrities, and considering just how much black culture has benefitted from white support, I think its safe to use a word that's now considered a term of endearment. I know plenty of whites that wish they can say something like "you my nigga" without fear of persecution. the ones that feel defensive are usually harder to define. they can be racist, they can have disdain for black activists, they can claim reverse racism, they feel cheated by affirmative action, etc. These arent always bad people, they're just tired of looking like the bad guys, and some embrace the role or had bad parenting and backwards communities which encourage racist behavior. The third and unmentioned type of whites are the ones that dont care, they prefer phrases like "to each their own".

    Blacks fall into categories as well. Some feel as if the world hates them, and act accordingly. They suffer from low self-esteem, come from all the bad areas, and literally become products of their environments. As we all know, it's a slippery slope, and many can't recover. This perpetuates the "ghetto" mentality, that whites hate blacks and blacks will never get anywhere. On the other hand, you have the MILLIONS of blacks that have thrived, and are now very successful people, and birth successful children. Our freaking president is black for crying out loud. I believe they are the single biggest reason race relations are progressing exponentially. Not only are they living proof that blacks can make it, but also proof that whites arent 'evil'. They strengthen race relations all across the board. The third type of black is the conspiracy theorist. To them all whites are the devil, white news spins black people to be gangsters, and black people are victims. These people strain race relations, and they strain black self-esteem. I think these Al Sharptons of the world are like the racist tea-partyers. Just there to mess it up for everyone.

    Everything else is other. hispanics, european-americans (wait are they white?), asians, orientals. We're still on the sidelines.

    The comment you made about illegal hispanics can be misconstrued on so many levels. I could go Al Sharpton on you and say all sorts of things about your racist rant and blah, blah, blah. but as an american that has sat on the sidelines of this white/black racism 'thing', I know the only respectful way to put an end to discriminatory behavior is: don't be a douche bro, its not cool. the last thing anyone needs is a disparaging comment made towards hispanics. the last thing anyone needs is a disparaging comment made towards ANY race.

    Though its annoying for me to write this, and probably even more annoying for anyone to read it, we have to acknowledge ****ed up **** when we see it. Now I better make sure I dont say anything bad about chinks lmao.

    Vin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJ2x View Post
    Just don't make the assumption that all these freeloaders are the "step children." The vast majority of them are biological children (to use your analogy).
    Not to mention the fact that we all came into this "family" from other places. And for the same reason they come today: economic opportunity.
    [Yes, I realize I'm that rare Conservative who is pro-immigration. (Although George W. was the same.) I just wish we could bring more order to the situation by securing the border, and streamling the Naturalization process. And granting Amnesty/Citizenship to the vast majority of "illegals" who are gainfully employed (and willing to learn English) and deporting the relatively few who aren't.]
    --The World, According To J2x
    case in point exactly. i almost feel bad for criticizing your first post, you definitely believe in equality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnythestick

    case in point exactly. i almost feel bad for criticizing your first post, you definitely believe in equality.
    Believing in equality isn't incompatible with believing people who entered the country illegally should be sent back to their homes
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    Wait. WOW, I just realized something.... Ok my complaint was with EasyEJL, Imj2x has nothing to do with this.

    Your last comment Easy is true. That wasnt my argument, my argument was in the context of your words. You offhandedly classified every hispanic as an illegal and a baby factory. You singlehandedly transformed a thread which could have been about french multiculturalism into an illegal immigrant discussion. Yes, we all know conservative americans still claim rights to this country, but summarizing the entire shift of american culture with "illegal immigrant baby factories?"

    Not to say anything bad about you, but you stereotyped an entire race.

    Maybe the face of the country is changing because of the amount of gays that have slipped into mainstream media, or the amount of black americans that have and are finding success, or the insane amount of cultural transformation occuring because of the internet.

    I highly doubt border jumpers that pick lettuce and cotton are doing any damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnythestick
    I highly doubt border jumpers that pick lettuce and cotton are doing any damage.
    I never categorized a race as such, I used federal government statistics on birth rates. And I have no prejudices against any person of any race that has a right to be in this country. I'm married to a Hispanic woman, and have a rainbow of friends.

    But the border jumpers that pick lettuce do cause damage, huge damage. Right now estimates are something over 12 million illegals here. With no access to social security, food stamps, etc, its reasonable to assume the majority are working. Unemployment is around 14 million people. Still they are no harm?

    Their children born here are citizens (and recall, the constitutional amendment for that was designed so that when slaves were given rights their children became citizens) which is fine, other than the occurrence of pregnant women border hopping then getting on welfare, food stamps, etc in the child's name after they are born. What's worst about these kids though is that they aren't raised as or to be Americans, the are raised as Mexicans living in America. And that's wrong.
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    The problem isn't with the illegals themselves, people get mad at the wrong people. If I told you that you could jump this fence and have a lot better life would you do it? I'd say the vast majority of us would. So basically people get mad at those who come here because the opportunity is better. Not to mention I don't think illegals are taking a lot of high quality work. Why are we getting angry at these people and not the business men who hire them?

    They are being hired for two reasons...either they will do the work no one else wants (which I think a LOT of people ignore this fact), or they will do the work cheaper. It blows my mind that people get mad directly at these usually uneducated people who are working the crappiest of the crap jobs and not getting mad at the very wealthy people who hire them to save some money. It's a simple fact, if jobs weren't available they wouldn't come over here. You're blaming the wrong people.

    I guess that just surprises me. People's beef is with the uneducated guy who's working some of the ****tiest jobs in existence for **** wages and they AREN'T mad at the rich guys sitting on a yacht paying these people less than what they'd pay someone who's legal?

    That's when I think race does play a big part in this. I hear people say racist crap about illegal immigrants all the time. And it blows my mind that people would get mad at them and ignore the other guys. Then again I suppose when you're white and racist it doesn't make sense to get mad at a white guy.

    Let Maddox talk some sense into these morons: http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart
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    You again are totally off. They don't work for big corporations, they work for small businesses. And as far as them doing jobs nobody else would do, that's the biggest liberal joke line ever. Those jobs would still need to be done if the illegals weren't here, and people would do them.

    The other liberal joke line is the wealthy paying less in taxes. It's just flat out untrue. You can say it all you want, and it makes an emotional line, but the irs data disagrees.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You again are totally off. They don't work for big corporations, they work for small businesses. And as far as them doing jobs nobody else would do, that's the biggest liberal joke line ever. Those jobs would still need to be done if the illegals weren't here, and people would do them.

    The other liberal joke line is the wealthy paying less in taxes. It's just flat out untrue. You can say it all you want, and it makes an emotional line, but the irs data disagrees.
    Dont really want be involved in the pointless debate here but Just a quick correction, a vast majority of illegal immigrants are in fact employed by corporations. Many meat packaging plants employ almost entirely illegals, hell some advertise in Mexico and then bus them into the states illegally. And no it's not that Americans WONT do the job it's Americans won't do the job under those ****ty conditions.
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    Hey Rawstrength, I enjoyed the article. I imagine that The prosecution would have been considered as "pro-Republican" and the defense "pro-Democrat." So to me this quote...

    "C. Counts Dismissed

    Twenty-four counts were dismissed. Nine counts alleging violations relating to Social Security cards were dismissed on the defendants’ motion due to the court’s refusal to interpret “identification document” as listed in 18 U.S.C. 1546(b) to include Social Security cards.[161] Fifteen other counts were dismissed, including all of the seven related to bringing illegal aliens to the United States for the purpose of commercial advantage and private financial gain,[162] seven of the ten counts related to transporting illegal aliens for the purpose of commercial advantage and private finan-cial gain,[163] and one of the eight counts of causing, inducing, aiding and abetting illegal aliens to possess counterfeit immigration and work authorization documents.[164]
    D. The Jury Acquittal

    Only twelve of the original thirty-six counts remained when it was time for the jury to deliberate. After seven weeks of trial, the jury deliberated for less than one day and brought back a verdict of “not guilty” on all counts.[165] The company and other defendants were acquitted of all remaining charges, which had alleged that they conspired to recruit and smuggle unauthorized workers to work in poultry processing plants.[166] No fines were imposed and no one went to jail.

    After the verdict, jurors said prosecutors were unconvincing.[167] “We felt like the government didn’t properly present its case. There were a lot of loopholes,” said one forty-three-year-old female juror.[168] "

    ...means that many laws were broken and thanks to the defense, our "American" laws were not upheld.

    Where is OSHA? shouldn't they make sure that a business like Tyson is safe for American or Legal immigrants to work in? No human should have to work in unsafe working conditions. Maybe companies like Tyson should follow all laws and regulations.
    I really do feel bad for the poor in Mexico. I've been there and seen it. I especially feel bad for the ones who WANT to work. If I were one of them I would do everything I could to get out of poverty too.
    For people who want to come here and work there is a Green Card designed for just that. If they decide to stay and live here there's the process of becoming a citizen. If the youth and lazy Americans don't want to certain jobs, then those jobs should be available to immigrants willing to obey OUR laws and get a Green Card. How much money in taxes are being lost to illegal immigration? The solution isn't to simply tax the rich but, to go after the employers helping people get out of paying taxes. Who pays zero taxes? Go after those people for additional revenue.

    As far as multiculturalism, if your goal is to reject 235 years of U.S. history and culture by changing it into your vision of Latin hood, then Spanish-only barrios make sense. There is also the option of going back where you came from if this country’s customs, language, religion, and culture offend you.
    Most legal immigrants came here for something better and to become an American, not to change America into what they just moved away from.

    I think its funny to see how many Black and Hispanic people vote for Democrats and not Republicans. Most illegal immigrants aren't bad people and have good "moral" values and seem, by there values, that they ARE Republicans. My best friend voted for Obama because he's Black. I talked to a mexican guy And he said that the Democrats are the "brown Government" and the Republicans are the "white Government." Thats the furthest thing from the truth.

    Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Republican. Back then, almost all black Americans were Republicans because since 1854 until today they've been the anti-slavery party , the Republican Party has been for freedom and civil rights for blacks. The Democrat Party has always been, the party of the four S's: slavery, secession, segregation and now socialism.
    It was the Democrats who fought to keep blacks in slavery and passed the Jim Crow laws. The Democrats started the Ku Klux Klan to lynch and terrorize blacks. The Democrats fought to prevent the passage of every civil rights law beginning with the civil rights laws of the 1860s, and continuing with the civil rights laws of the 1950s and 1960s.

    Dr. King was fighting the Democrats who stood in the school house doors, turned skin-burning fire hoses on blacks and let loose dogs on them. It was a "Republican President" (Eisenhower) who pushed to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1957. It was was Eisenhower who actually took action to end segregation in the military.

    John F. Kennedy is lauded as a proponent of civil rights, but, Kennedy voted against the 1957 Civil Rights Act while he was still a senator. It was Democrat Atty. Gen. Robert Kennedy, had Dr. King wiretapped and investigated by the FBI on suspicion of being a Communist in order to undermine Dr. King.

    In March of 1968, while referring to Dr. King's leaving Memphis, Tennessee, Democrat Sen. Robert Byrd (W.Va.), a former member of the Ku Klux Klan, called Dr. King a "trouble-maker" who starts trouble. A few weeks later, Dr. King returned to Memphis and was assassinated on April 4, 1968.
    It was the Republicans who fought to free blacks from slavery and amended the Constitution to grant blacks freedom (13th Amendment), citizenship (14th Amendment) and the right to vote (15th Amendment). Republicans passed the civil rights laws of the 1860s, including the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Reconstruction Act of 1867 that was designed to establish a new government system in the Democrat-controlled South, one that was fair to blacks. Republicans also started the NAACP and affirmative action with Republican President Richard Nixon.
    Few black Americans know that it was Republicans who founded the Historically Black Colleges and Universities.

    Republican Sen. Barry Goldwater, in 1964, wanted to force the Democrats in the South to stop passing discriminatory laws and end the need to continuously enact federal civil rights legislation.

    Democrat President Lyndon Johnson, in 1967, because Dr. King's was protesting against the Vietnam War, the Democrat President referred to Dr. King as "that Nigger preacher."

    Democrats, the racist "Dixiecrats" did not all migrate to the Republican Party. "Dixiecrats" declared that they would rather vote for a "yellow dog" than vote for a Republican because the Republican Party was know as the party for blacks. Today, some of those "Dixiecrats" continue their political careers as Democrats, including Robert Byrd, who is well known for having been a "Keagle" in the Ku Klux Klan.

    I can go on and on but maybe later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You again are totally off. They don't work for big corporations, they work for small businesses. And as far as them doing jobs nobody else would do, that's the biggest liberal joke line ever. Those jobs would still need to be done if the illegals weren't here, and people would do them.

    The other liberal joke line is the wealthy paying less in taxes. It's just flat out untrue. You can say it all you want, and it makes an emotional line, but the irs data disagrees.
    I don't know what you mean by totally off. You were wrong on Reagan and you're wrong on this. The idea that illegals don't work for corporations is laughable. Hell when I was younger I WORKED for big businesses that hired illegals. The point doesn't change, if people didn't hire them they wouldn't be here.

    We had a lot of illegals when unemployment was lower so your laughable stance that we have a high unemployment is just because of illegals is factually wrong. Illegals ARE doing ****ty jobs no one else will do for less. You can try and call that a joke line, but it's true. Are illegals taking great jobs and doing them in great conditions? You're insane to think that. And I don't know what you were going with on the tax thing because I didn't mention anything about that.

    I don't have time to prove you wrong on everything because you don't want to believe anything other than what you've said. Very similar to Reagan where I proved that he was big government, you have a stance and you won't bend on it. I don't have time for arguments with close minded people, it doesn't matter what you show them they will continue to keep their head in the sand. By all means be mad at the wrong people, a lot of Americans are.
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    Let's not let facts get in the way of strong appeals to emotion. Strong appeals to emotion are the broscience of political thought. It's ignoring everything that could be counter to your argument which is what most of our politicians do anyways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    Let's not let facts get in the way of strong appeals to emotion. Strong appeals to emotion are the broscience of political thought. It's ignoring everything that could be counter to your argument which is what most of our politicians do anyways.
    Excuse me?

    I don't understand your response, are you suggesting what I posted was "broscience" (made up/only based on popular beliefs and not facts) or somehow invalid?
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    In the US educational system we have "NO Grades NO Play" we simply need to to adopt this to the "NO contribute i.e. pay taxes NO benefits" the top 1% of American earners pay over half the taxes collected. Everyone needs to pay to get things in return i.e. social security and medicare; and we need to stop bailing out companies that are in debt let them fail and the customers will find another company to work with also we need to stop giving billions away in foreign aid and solving the other countries problems. We have our own problems to solve and no country will pick a fight with us if we have the biggest and most weapons. Revive the Cold War
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    Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    Excuse me?

    I don't understand your response, are you suggesting what I posted was "broscience" (made up/only based on popular beliefs and not facts) or somehow invalid?
    Actually just the opposite, I said you are bringing facts into debates where people just like to say things. Sure anyone can say small businesses are the only ones hiring illegals, it doesn't make it true in the least bit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    Actually just the opposite, I said you are bringing facts into debates where people just like to say things. Sure anyone can say small businesses are the only ones hiring illegals, it doesn't make it true in the least bit.
    lol... Ohh I was confused for a sec there. Anyway I dont like to get involved in these Internet debates over politics. Just about 10 times out of 10 the other person isn't gonna cate what you say or what you bring to the table. It is extremely difficult to change someones mindset and beliefs and for something so trivial it just isn't worth the time and effort IMO
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    Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    lol... Ohh I was confused for a sec there. Anyway I dont like to get involved in these Internet debates over politics. Just about 10 times out of 10 the other person isn't gonna cate what you say or what you bring to the table. It is extremely difficult to change someones mindset and beliefs and for something so trivial it just isn't worth the time and effort IMO
    Completely agreed. I don't know why I get into it. I guess you see things sometimes that you think are so false and wrong you just have to say something. It is very trivial and most people aren't going to change beliefs no matter what you put in front of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi

    Completely agreed. I don't know why I get into it. I guess you see things sometimes that you think are so false and wrong you just have to say something. It is very trivial and most people aren't going to change beliefs no matter what you put in front of them.
    So tyson employs 11 million illegals? The majority are hires by small businesses - hotels, farms, all sorts of low skilled menial labor positions. Large corporations don't have that many of those sort of positions to go around. And you can use bad logic and words I never stated "illegals caused unenployment" to avoid the reality of the fact that regardless of when unemployment was lower it now when its higher that it would be lower without the illegals.

    Illegal aliens are no different than squatters. Find an abandoned home in foreclosure. Move into it and live there. Do you somehow have a right to that home then ? No, regardless of whether you now the lawn, reprint it, etc (like the % of aliens who pay taxes or otherwise are helpful in the community). The act of breaking in to the house is the same as breaking in to this country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    So tyson employs 11 million illegals? The majority are hires by small businesses - hotels, farms, all sorts of low skilled menial labor positions. Large corporations don't have that many of those sort of positions to go around. And you can use bad logic and words I never stated "illegals caused unenployment" to avoid the reality of the fact that regardless of when unemployment was lower it now when its higher that it would be lower without the illegals.

    Illegal aliens are no different than squatters. Find an abandoned home in foreclosure. Move into it and live there. Do you somehow have a right to that home then ? No, regardless of whether you now the lawn, reprint it, etc (like the % of aliens who pay taxes or otherwise are helpful in the community). The act of breaking in to the house is the same as breaking in to this country.
    No Tyson doesn't employ 11 million illegals and I never said that. You claimed illegals don't work for big corporations. That statement is demonstrably false. Large corporations hire illegals when it benefits them. Obviously if they don't have menial labor jobs they aren't hiring illegals. I don't know where you get this idea that big businesses don't hire them. As I said I've WORKED in big businesses that hire them.

    This entire country since it's existence has consisted of people coming into it to try and better themselves. America, land of opportunity. This is WHY these people are coming in to the country. Its to make life better for themselves. They are coming in and working the crappiest jobs for the crappiest wages with next to no benefits. Why are you mad at them? They are only coming here to better themselves and because they can find better paying jobs in this country than where they come from.

    IF PEOPLE DIDN'T HIRE ILLEGALS THEY WOULDN'T COME. It really is as simple as that. I hear racist people in my neck of the woods say every possible racist thing about these hispanic people and it disgusts me. Everyone is getting mad at the wrong person. They are getting mad at the person who has it the crappiest (the illegal worker) and ignoring the people who have it the best and benefit from it the most (the person exploiting them).

    And make no mistake about it these business owners ARE exploiting them. That's why they are hired, because they will do it for less pay and no benefits. Look I'm not happy we have a lot of illegals in this country and I certainly think it is a problem. But I'm not even remotely mad at them for coming into the country to try and better their lot in life. I think a ton of us if we were in their situation would do the same. I was just pointing out the problem and solution is obvious to this problem.
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    This country was built by people coming here legally, not jumping the border. There is a path to coming here legally available to people of most nations. The fact that some people want to jump the line because their country sucks doesn't give them the right to.

    Our federal is constitutionally empowered to do 2 things - protect our borders and regulate interstate commerce. Protecting our borders includes stopping and deporting illegal aliens. The abject failure of our government to accomplish one of its 2 tasks should be what upsets you, not the people hiring them.

    As even with your Harvard study, apparently there isn't a concerted purposeful effort by companies to hire illegal aliens or skirt identity verification processes or there would have been real convictions and fines. You want to know who the largest single employer of illegals is? The federal government. They exempt themselves from the same identity verification process that private businesses have to follow.

    Your sympathy for the illegals based on the crappy home countries they come from is understandable, however having sympathy for then doesn't mean that because an unskilled non English speaking person manages to cross the Rio Grande that they have more right to be here than an English speaking doctor from that same country who has followed all the legal immigration procedures and is awaiting a visa.
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    And I'll agree, the solution is obvious - stop the federal government from shirking its responsibility, and have them deal with illegals. Doing anything with employers is fruitless without that. All that it would accomplish if suddenly no illegals were employed would be creating huge ghettos of illegals, with a jump in crime and fraud. They need to be sent home.
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    The results of that specific case is irrelevant. I merely posted it just to showed your impossible did exist. As to why they won, I mean come on.. Do you have any idea the kind of budget a company like Tyson has? Does no one remember back when that cattle farm sued Oprah and dragged the case out for years and she eventually settled. And this is Oprah who many would consider a very wealthy, influential and powerful individual. The notion that "well they got not guilty so they must not have done it" is ridiculous. If that's the case the I guess OJ really didn't do it

    Oh and they know exactly who they are hiring. How else do you explain them advertising seeking employers in Mexico?

    The problem is Americans are cheap! They want to pay $1 for there cheeseburgers and the illegal immigrants allow that to happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    This country was built by people coming here legally, not jumping the border. There is a path to coming here legally available to people of most nations. The fact that some people want to jump the line because their country sucks doesn't give them the right to.

    Our federal is constitutionally empowered to do 2 things - protect our borders and regulate interstate commerce. Protecting our borders includes stopping and deporting illegal aliens. The abject failure of our government to accomplish one of its 2 tasks should be what upsets you, not the people hiring them.

    As even with your Harvard study, apparently there isn't a concerted purposeful effort by companies to hire illegal aliens or skirt identity verification processes or there would have been real convictions and fines. You want to know who the largest single employer of illegals is? The federal government. They exempt themselves from the same identity verification process that private businesses have to follow.

    Your sympathy for the illegals based on the crappy home countries they come from is understandable, however having sympathy for then doesn't mean that because an unskilled non English speaking person manages to cross the Rio Grande that they have more right to be here than an English speaking doctor from that same country who has followed all the legal immigration procedures and is awaiting a visa.
    You're shifting the goalposts, I never stated the federal government wasn't a problem or a major player. The fact of the matter is you wouldn't have an illegal alien problem if illegal aliens couldn't find work. Whether it's in the government, big business or small business the situation doesn't change. I don't get mad at the person doing crappy jobs for crappy wages in a crappy work environment. I also fully disagree that a lot of Americans are jumping at the chance to do things like pick lettuce. This idea that a lot of Americans are wanting to do some of these jobs is pretty laughable. I'm not mad at the workers, they are taking advantage of the better opportunities provided.

    And I would like to see a study on the illegal aliens in the federal government. That may very well be true (it wouldn't surprise me), but it sounds like the kind of right wing talking point like baby factory, corporations don't hire illegals, etc.

    You don't imagine you may act like them in a similar situation? You have a crap home or a family to provide for and I say you can make twice as much by going here? It's DIFFICULT to become an American citizen and the process is long. It's not as if you wouldn't have a lot of these people be legal if the process wasn't so complicated.

    You're off on the employers thing, if they couldn't find work they wouldn't be here. It really is that simple. You should be as pissed at your average boss man citizen exploiting them as you are at the federal government. About the only person I don't really see getting pissed at is the exploited illegal, but that's what most people do. Illegal immigration costs us money and it is a problem. Which is exactly why I'm mad at the people that make it happen, employers looking to exploit workers. Whether that employer is the government, a corporation, or a mom and pop business is completely irrelevant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    The results of that specific case is irrelevant. I merely posted it just to showed your impossible did exist. As to why they won, I mean come on.. Do you have any idea the kind of budget a company like Tyson has?
    Oh, some corporations do have them, but the majority are in small businesses (some of which are corporations as well, I mean I owned a corporation myself, a whopping 2 of us working for it, I think total gross income over 6 years was under 40k).

    But the budget that tyson has looks like my budget compared to the federal governments... So the dollars spent isn't all that meaningful when its a case vs the feds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    You're shifting the goalposts, I never stated the federal government wasn't a problem or a major player. The fact of the matter is you wouldn't have an illegal alien problem if illegal aliens couldn't find work. Whether it's in the government, big business or small business the situation doesn't change. I don't get mad at the person doing crappy jobs for crappy wages in a crappy work environment. I also fully disagree that a lot of Americans are jumping at the chance to do things like pick lettuce. I'm not mad at the workers, they are taking advantage of the better opportunities provided.

    You don't imagine you may act like them in a similar situation. You have a crap home or a family to provide for and I say you can make twice as much by going here? It's DIFFICULT to become an American citizen and the process is long. It's not as if you wouldn't have a lot of these people be legal if the process wasn't so long.

    You're off on the employers thing, if they couldn't find work they wouldn't be here. It really is that simple. You should be as pissed at your average boss man citizen exploiting them as you are at the federal government. About the only person I don't really see getting pissed at is the illegal, but that's what most people do. Excuse me, non English speaking baby factory.
    Do you honestly believe the 12+ million illegals would pack up and go home if nobody hired them? Thats pretty naive. And regardless of your feeling on who is responsible for stopping illegal aliens, its a clearly delineated portion of the Constitution that the federal government is responsible to "protect each of them against invasion" (the states is what it refers to). It is an invasion, although a relatively slow one

    http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/s...ll_pe_2008.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I never categorized a race as such, I used federal government statistics on birth rates. And I have no prejudices against any person of any race that has a right to be in this country. I'm married to a Hispanic woman, and have a rainbow of friends.

    But the border jumpers that pick lettuce do cause damage, huge damage. Right now estimates are something over 12 million illegals here. With no access to social security, food stamps, etc, its reasonable to assume the majority are working. Unemployment is around 14 million people. Still they are no harm?

    Their children born here are citizens (and recall, the constitutional amendment for that was designed so that when slaves were given rights their children became citizens) which is fine, other than the occurrence of pregnant women border hopping then getting on welfare, food stamps, etc in the child's name after they are born. What's worst about these kids though is that they aren't raised as or to be Americans, the are raised as Mexicans living in America. And that's wrong.


    Great point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Do you honestly believe the 12+ million illegals would pack up and go home if nobody hired them? Thats pretty naive. And regardless of your feeling on who is responsible for stopping illegal aliens, its a clearly delineated portion of the Constitution that the federal government is responsible to "protect each of them against invasion" (the states is what it refers to). It is an invasion, although a relatively slow one

    http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/s...ll_pe_2008.pdf
    If they couldn't find work then yes. Either way you know it would end if they couldn't find jobs. The ONLY reason they come into the country is because life is better for them here or they think it will be. The exact same reason anyone ever immigrated to a country. And plenty of people are willing to hire (exploit) them here. I don't really see how you can call it an invasion when so many people are welcoming them with open arms. You don't think corporations and businesses like hiring illegals? Of course they do. You can blame it on the government all you want (and they are a huge problem), but the fact of the matter is many businesses are willingly breaking the law to hire them. It STILL blows my mind that you thought big businesses aren't hiring them. That's just factually incorrect.

    My point all along is people are always mad at the illegal aliens directly which I think is pretty stupid and wasted anger. Personally I'm going to get mad at the businessmen who exploit them and the root of the problem. They are coming here and working miserable jobs in miserable conditions for miserable wages. I have a lot harder time being mad at them than the people who are exploiting them and are the reason they are here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi View Post
    If they couldn't find work then yes. Either way you know it would end if they couldn't find jobs. The ONLY reason they come into the country is because life is better for them here or they think it will be. The exact same reason anyone ever immigrated to a country. And plenty of people are willing to hire (exploit) them here. I don't really see how you can call it an invasion when so many people are welcoming them with open arms. You don't think corporations and businesses like hiring illegals? Of course they do. You can blame it on the government all you want (and they are a huge problem), but the fact of the matter is many businesses are willingly breaking the law to hire them. It STILL blows my mind that you thought big businesses aren't hiring them. That's just factually incorrect.

    My point all along is people are always mad at the illegal aliens directly which I think is pretty stupid and wasted anger. Personally I'm going to get mad at the businessmen who exploit them and the root of the problem. They are coming here and working miserable jobs in miserable conditions for miserable wages. I have a lot harder time being mad at them than the people who are exploiting them and are the reason they are here.
    Well stated.
  

  
 

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