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    Question for Obama sparks Web buzz


    The Buzz Log - Town Hall Exchange Sparks Big Buzz - Yahoo! Buzz

    So who else is tired of defending him?

    PS
    Mr. O, I don't think she asked anything funny, why did you laugh at her?

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    I'm not tired of defending him, because I knew he was a sack of crap from the day he showed up in congress. Anyone who wins their first political seat (in the Illinois state senate) by waiting until the day after people are able to enter the race to systematically use legal maneuvers to disqualify all of his opponents is essentially dishonest and disingenous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcjames View Post
    The Buzz Log - Town Hall Exchange Sparks Big Buzz - Yahoo! Buzz

    So who else is tired of defending him?

    PS
    Mr. O, I don't think she asked anything funny, why did you laugh at her?
    I'm not tired of defending him.I hate hearing people cry and moan about this and that.Level minded people are smart enough to know he isn't going to fix things in his first term(granted he gets a second term of course) there's simply too many things wrong in order for him to do that.He was the lesser of the evils in the race he isn't perfect but the rest of the people running would have made things ALOT worse imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    I'm not tired of defending him.I hate hearing people cry and moan about this and that.Level minded people are smart enough to know he isn't going to fix things in his first term(granted he gets a second term of course) there's simply too many things wrong in order for him to do that.He was the lesser of the evils in the race he isn't perfect but the rest of the people running would have made things ALOT worse imo.
    If he would have simply done nothing in office, we would be better off.
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    this is the problem imo. He might have been the lesser of 2 evils, but that goes to show how awful our choices are now. There is no prospective leadership in this country. It is all corrupt
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    this is the problem imo. He might have been the lesser of 2 evils, but that goes to show how awful our choices are now. There is no prospective leadership in this country. It is all corrupt
    Amen... of course I disagree of which one was lesser.

    Lets just hope "Man of the Year" really happens!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    this is the problem imo. He might have been the lesser of 2 evils, but that goes to show how awful our choices are now. There is no prospective leadership in this country. It is all corrupt
    I dunno, Chris Christie in NJ looks pretty good honestly.
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    Better yet.. how about Stephen Colbert... he was sponsored in the last race by Dorito's!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I dunno, Chris Christie in NJ looks pretty good honestly.
    I definitely agree... but you just said that to the man who would rape his dog given the chance!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I dunno, Chris Christie in NJ looks pretty good honestly.
    that just shows you arent near NJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Amen... of course I disagree of which one was lesser.

    Lets just hope "Man of the Year" really happens!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    There is no prospective leadership in this country. It is all corrupt
    this is the biggest problem you have people high in power that are dirty, you have to fix things from the top and work your way down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    this is the biggest problem you have people high in power that are dirty, you have to fix things from the top and work your way down.
    agreed, not to sound all "ZeroV" but thi is an enormous problem that can be fixed through a revolution. (Thomas Jefferson would be proud)
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    this is the biggest problem you have people high in power that are dirty, you have to fix things from the top and work your way down.
    That is completely impossible to do. You have to start at the lowest level and trickle up to fix things. A real statesman will never be elected directly to president.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    agreed, not to sound all "ZeroV" but thi is an enormous problem that can be fixed through a revolution. (Thomas Jefferson would be proud)
    May not have liked many of the things Zero said.. but he was dead on when it came to some things.

    remember though... it will not be televised.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    that just shows you arent near NJ
    No, but I grew up there till I was 21, and know the sort of liberal nonsense that generally dominates the state.

    Also, somehow when Obama does something that the majority of the public is against you'd call it him "doing the right thing no matter what", but when Christie balanced the NJ budget its somehow wrong? Deficit spending can't go on indefinitely, and unions are no less a special interest group than any other special interest group. Whether teachers union, toll workers union, AFL-CIO, etc. They each have their own axes to grind, and are special interest groups.
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    Christie talks big, but has no procedural know-how. He recently cost the state 400 million in federal funding for our educational system. Seeing as you grew up there (as did I), you realize how important this money is/was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Monk View Post
    Christie talks big, but has no procedural know-how. He recently cost the state 400 million in federal funding for our educational system. Seeing as you grew up there (as did I), you realize how important this money is/was.
    Did "he" cost the state $400 mil, or did one of his underlings who filled out or filed something wrong? From what I remember hearing about it, it was something incorrectly filed.

    And besides, taken from the outside view (living in Florida now), education is a local issue, there shouldn't be federal funding necessary for it. Its another piece of the reasons why our federal deficit goes up and up and up. It becomes a shuffle of blame, the state throws their hands up in the air and says "we can't manage this" and the federal government swoops in with cash stolen from all 50 states. That way the state doesn't have to raise their sales/real estate/income taxes themselves, and can avoid blame.

    But like any shell game or accounting gimmick, you can only get away with it for so long before it all falls apart. We saw it with Enron, we saw it with a bunch of the Wall Street groups, we saw it with banks, we saw it in Greece and are likely to see it soon in possibly Spain + Turkey as well. I think Ireland is at fairly deep risk too.
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    Fat Cats, and Big Corp, will always trump the well-being of this country. I'm sure Obama had big plans for when he got into office, about how he was going to turn this country around.

    It gonna be a long hard road if he's honest. Too many hands in his face going "oh no, your not thinning my pockets". Greed has reigned supreme.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolf0420 View Post
    Fat Cats, and Big Corp, will always trump the well-being of this country. I'm sure Obama had big plans for when he got into office, about how he was going to turn this country around.

    It gonna be a long hard road if he's honest. Too many hands in his face going "oh no, your not thinning my pockets". Greed has reigned supreme.
    Would you not be upset if one man wanted to take an unequal amount of earned money from your family as opposed to another? Well being isn't spreading around the wealth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolf0420 View Post
    Fat Cats, and Big Corp, will always trump the well-being of this country. I'm sure Obama had big plans for when he got into office, about how he was going to turn this country around.

    It gonna be a long hard road if he's honest. Too many hands in his face going "oh no, your not thinning my pockets". Greed has reigned supreme.
    Oh please, he overturned centuries contract law in the bankruptcies of GM + Chrysler by paying out unsecured debts (to the unions) before secured debts (bondholders) and took over both companies. He took over banks, and just continues to seek more and more governmental control over corporations - ie socialism 1 inch at a time.

    He was never honest about turning this country around, his goal is closer to a 1 world government which turns us in the wrong direction (as we have the highest lifestyle internationally, which means we lose the most).
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    Underling or not, its his administration that created the mistake. As the face of it, and the de facto manager; he takes responsibility.

    And the federal government money wasn't just money thrown in the air. It was part of a program designed to foster better educational systems in the states competing (known as Race To The Top).

    To philosophically disagree w/ federal funding is one thing, but to bring that in as a point when the money already existed and was clearly going to go somewhere (its not like it up and disappeared) is a little besides the point. Its like the republican governors who swore up and down they would take no stimulus/bail-out funds, and then subsequently did. Practicality wins out over politics any day (if they know whats good for them).

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Did "he" cost the state $400 mil, or did one of his underlings who filled out or filed something wrong? From what I remember hearing about it, it was something incorrectly filed.

    And besides, taken from the outside view (living in Florida now), education is a local issue, there shouldn't be federal funding necessary for it. Its another piece of the reasons why our federal deficit goes up and up and up. It becomes a shuffle of blame, the state throws their hands up in the air and says "we can't manage this" and the federal government swoops in with cash stolen from all 50 states. That way the state doesn't have to raise their sales/real estate/income taxes themselves, and can avoid blame.

    But like any shell game or accounting gimmick, you can only get away with it for so long before it all falls apart. We saw it with Enron, we saw it with a bunch of the Wall Street groups, we saw it with banks, we saw it in Greece and are likely to see it soon in possibly Spain + Turkey as well. I think Ireland is at fairly deep risk too.
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    And just to show that even Christie is not above political blame and spin. (My main point being that mostly all politicians are simply that....players of politics)

    Christie faulted the Obama administration's lack of "common sense" for not accepting verbal confirmation of the correct fiscal year numbers not included in the faulty paperwork.

    "This is the stuff that drives people crazy about government, about Washington," Christie said.

    State Assembly Speaker Sheila Oliver said the error was "a stunning mistake that is going to hurt New Jersey's children."

    The U.S. Department of Education did not immediately respond to a request seeking reaction to Christie's views. Comments from experts who analyzed state Race to the Top applications and determined the winners reveal that New Jersey's budget-reporting error was likely not the key reason behind its losing out by three points. The independent panel of reviewers repeatedly cited the Christie administration's inability to get most or all of the state's school districts, or Local Education Agencies, to go along with the plan as the reason for rejecting New Jersey's application.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Monk View Post
    And just to show that even Christie is not above political blame and spin. (My main point being that mostly all politicians are simply that....players of politics)
    Sounds like a bunch of pandering to me. Looks like Fed wanted to bring discredit to Christie since he is the biggest threat right now. When in fact the issue could have been resolved and not a big deal. But......

    Using kids as a political football.
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    Again I'm talking about the fat cats of corp America who are still taking million dollar bonuses, all the while, the hard working "man" is getting **** on, and laid off. Just trying to make ends meet, and can't even afford insurance to keep him healthy and working.



    Recession over, my ass.
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    The independent panel of reviewers repeatedly cited the Christie administration's inability to get most or all of the state's school districts, or Local Education Agencies, to go along with the plan as the reason for rejecting New Jersey's application.
    Which is a fault of the teachers unions, not of Christie. When you have special interest groups that support the status quo and their own gains over the goals they are supposed to serve (education in this instance) its pretty hard to get them to agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolf0420 View Post
    Again I'm talking about the fat cats of corp America who are still taking million dollar bonuses, all the while, the hard working "man" is getting **** on, and laid off. Just trying to make ends meet, and can't even afford insurance to keep him healthy and working.



    Recession over, my ass.
    The CEOs of major corporations have tons more responsibility as well as skills + education than they did 40 years ago, but the average blue collar worker has neither any more responsibility or skills than they did 40 years ago. Blue collar jobs are basically dead in the US, other than lame service jobs. You can partially thank unions for that.

    and yeah, the recession isn't over and won't be in real world terms for most people for at least a decade, if ever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolf0420 View Post
    Again I'm talking about the fat cats of corp America who are still taking million dollar bonuses, all the while, the hard working "man" is getting **** on, and laid off. Just trying to make ends meet, and can't even afford insurance to keep him healthy and working.



    Recession over, my ass.
    If it is a private institution, the million dollar bonuses are of no concern to anyone. You are making gross generalizations that propagate from one side of the isle to demonize Capitalism in support of another agenda. Then again, unfortunately we have effectively moved away from Capitalism into Corporatism, the final nail was nationalizing private institutions. Kudo's TARP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    If it is a private institution, the million dollar bonuses are of no concern to anyone. You are making gross generalizations that propagate from one side of the isle to demonize Capitalism in support of another agenda. Then again, unfortunately we have effectively moved away from Capitalism into Corporatism, the final nail was nationalizing private institutions. Kudo's TARP.
    I think even worse was the financial reform bill, which gives the president the ability to decide on his own that a corporation is "too big to fail" and enable governmental takeover and dismantling of it, with no criteria necessary. He could decide as it gets closer to his re-election to determine that Rupert Murdoch's NewsCorp is "too big to fail" and have the government take it over to dismantle Fox News's and the other conservative reporting. A ridiculous warping of the constitution to enable that sort of power in any individual.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    No, but I grew up there till I was 21, and know the sort of liberal nonsense that generally dominates the state.

    Also, somehow when Obama does something that the majority of the public is against you'd call it him "doing the right thing no matter what", but when Christie balanced the NJ budget its somehow wrong? Deficit spending can't go on indefinitely, and unions are no less a special interest group than any other special interest group. Whether teachers union, toll workers union, AFL-CIO, etc. They each have their own axes to grind, and are special interest groups.
    I wouldnt say that about Obama if I disagreed.

    Christie is just being very short sighted. We need to look at what he has done in order to balance the budget. In essence, attack state employees and promise not to fund their pensions.

    However, what he doesnt realize is that he is forcing state employees who are on the cusp of retirement, to retire early and level the pension all together. Additionally, he is taking the state that is nationally recognized as #3 in education and destroying the system. Bravo
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I wouldnt say that about Obama if I disagreed.

    Christie is just being very short sighted. We need to look at what he has done in order to balance the budget. In essence, attack state employees and promise not to fund their pensions.

    However, what he doesnt realize is that he is forcing state employees who are on the cusp of retirement, to retire early and level the pension all together. Additionally, he is taking the state that is nationally recognized as #3 in education and destroying the system. Bravo
    I look at it the exact opposite. Looking at the long view, dealing with the pain and bleeding now, instead of exacerbating the issue longer. State employees are the issue here... somehow the government is growing larger and faster than the private sector.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I look at it the exact opposite. Looking at the long view, dealing with the pain and bleeding now, instead of exacerbating the issue longer. State employees are the issue here... somehow the government is growing larger and faster than the private sector.
    they arent growing faster and larger, it is just that there is a recession right now and the private sector feels it more.

    I look at it like this: my school board agreed to a particualr contract, which cannot and should not be renegotitated. During times of economic boom, teachers didnt ask the board to reopen the contacts to get more money.

    Additionally, most teachers went into teaching for a variety of reasons, one of which was security. I have friends who make double or triple what I do, but have a major job security problem that I do not. Its a trade off.

    This is not a total state employee issue.
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    I agree w/ the above exactly. And no side is blameless. To say something is solely one person's fault is terribly short-sighted and uninformed. The teacher's unions definitely need reform and to afford some concessions, but Christie definitely needs to come a ways inroads also. To paint this as right/wrong misses the picture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    they arent growing faster and larger, it is just that there is a recession right now and the private sector feels it more.

    I look at it like this: my school board agreed to a particualr contract, which cannot and should not be renegotitated. During times of economic boom, teachers didnt ask the board to reopen the contacts to get more money.

    Additionally, most teachers went into teaching for a variety of reasons, one of which was security. I have friends who make double or triple what I do, but have a major job security problem that I do not. Its a trade off.

    This is not a total state employee issue.
    You just proved your own problem.

    Why is being a teacher thought of being completely secure in your job? Because of the unions that made it to where it takes an act of God to fire someone, or apparently diddling the kids.

    Teachers should be held to standards and be compensated based on merit, not because you have been breathing longest in that school.

    Christie gave the Union opportunity to avoid what he had done, but the union wouldn't budge, so someone with the purse strings had to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    they arent growing faster and larger, it is just that there is a recession right now and the private sector feels it more.

    I look at it like this: my school board agreed to a particualr contract, which cannot and should not be renegotitated. During times of economic boom, teachers didnt ask the board to reopen the contacts to get more money.

    Additionally, most teachers went into teaching for a variety of reasons, one of which was security. I have friends who make double or triple what I do, but have a major job security problem that I do not. Its a trade off.

    This is not a total state employee issue.
    They are growing larger and larger, each year the public sector grows, and it is a non-GDP positive growth sector.

    In general if you look at public sector employee vs private sector, the public sector supporters say that even including the cost of benefits the pay is about on par. What they neglect to mention in talking about that is that for non-degreed employees (high school diploma only), the average public sector worker makes 2x as much as he would in the private sector, and almost as much as degreed employees.

    And for teachers specifically, i'm not sure why so many expect to make similar wages as the private sector, given that with all the holidays, half days, etc teachers have roughly an 8 month work schedule vs 11-12 in the private sector. You'd have to think that teachers should make around 2/3 what other degreed professionals do, because thats roughly what they put in timewise.
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    No, AE's point is valid. Contracts are signed in both actual law and the spirit of the law. To retroactively change them invalidates the entire notion of having a contract to begin w/.
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    Timewise? Easy I have worked in both and thwe time I put in for tea9hing far exceeds what I did in banking. I will address the other points later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Monk View Post
    I agree w/ the above exactly. And no side is blameless. To say something is solely one person's fault is terribly short-sighted and uninformed. The teacher's unions definitely need reform and to afford some concessions, but Christie definitely needs to come a ways inroads also. To paint this as right/wrong misses the picture.
    No, it really is that simple. You can't indefinitely spend money you don't have. At some point, you have to start making unpleasant choices. Teachers isn't the only spot where spending cuts are being made, but again, their union has year by year made public school teachers effectively less and less competitive with private schools. Not counting parochial schools, most states are paying about the same (within 10% or so) and yet in the end are not preparing kids for college as well as private schools

    The study behind this showed that after putting in controls for Socio Economic Status, that state standardized acheivement tests were roughly equal however...

    While controlling for SES eliminated most public school/private-school differences in achievement test scores, it did not eliminate differences in the most widely used test of developed abilities, the SAT. (As I explained more fully here, developed abilities are those nurtured through schoolwork, reading, engaging a piece of art, and any other activities that spark critical thinking. Developed abilities aren't inborn traits but honed competencies, more akin to athletic skill gained through practice rather than raw IQ. By contrast, achievement tests measure the amount of material students have committed to memory in any particular field.) Combined with high-school grades, SAT scores are the best predictor of how kids will do in their freshman year of college. And the data in the new study shows that private-school students outperform public-school students on the SAT.

    Isn't that just because richer private-school kids can afford to be coached more before the SAT? No remember that this study carefully controlled for socioeconomic status. Rather, it appears private schools do more to develop students' critical-thinking abilities not just the rote memorization required to do well on achievement tests.



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    Where is this contract that was being encroached on? I have read it that people's salary and what not listed in the contract are being honored, just now teachers are losing their jobs due to lack of funds.

    if I remember correctly that was what was being offered, to reorg the contract so there are funds there to keep people on board, but the union denied that and now the money is STILL not there, so people have to lose their jobs.

    People like this not willing to take the pay cut to help his union member out, which is what he is actually there for. No one is completely altruistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Monk View Post
    No, AE's point is valid. Contracts are signed in both actual law and the spirit of the law. To retroactively change them invalidates the entire notion of having a contract to begin w/.
    You mean like was done with GM's bankruptcy and paying unsecured debts before secured debts out of the bankruptcy proceedings?

    Contracts are always subject to renegotiation. And they can be turned down as well, as happened there. Although I don't know whether during "fat years" whether any given teachers union did attempt to renegotiate terms or not, its been common in other industries with their unions, for the union to ask for a contract renegotiation mid cycle. When the choice is renegotiation or layoffs and the union chooses layoffs, the laid off people can complain to the union. Hawaii is the perfect example, because the union couldn't come to terms with the state, teachers had every friday off (as well as the students of course)
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