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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    You speak in such broad terms, reminds me very much of Bush Jr, in other words a very limited understanding of nuanced issues, so you regurgitate the same talking points over and over.

    There isn't a hint of nuance or context within any of your arguments. Yes it costs between 22-24k per student in Newark, and yes graduation rates are low, because much of the priority is focused on crime reduction, one of the major factors as to why the best teachers have opted to go elsewhere. It's much easier to allocate funds in a suburb, than it is in an urban area, where you have a much broader range of issues to deal with, such as what AE14 alluded to in prior post.

    You make these sweeping observations (none of them spelled or articulated correctly but that's another subject altogether), without a shred of context behind them. I understand the conservative approach is to oversimplify life, it's much easier to comprehend simple than it is to observe the facts.
    Again, who was it dsade was referring to on ad hominem grits I wonder....

    and again, why continue to throw more and more and more money on what doesn't work? This is just like stimulus packages in congress. One of the definitions of insanity is repeatedly performing the same steps, and expecting a different result. There is no reason why it should cost more to educate 2 students in Newark to have one of them drop out than it costs to educate 6 students in Los Angeles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    No, those things are also factors, however having one of the worst rates of graduation in the country coupled with one of the highest costs of public education in the country is pretty ridiculous. Its obvious that what the teacher are doing (whether it be the grade school teachers earlier on, or the high school teachers themselves) isn't working. In the private sector, when an employee isn't performing according to expectations do they keep their job? No, but as a teacher you do. One of Charlie Christ's last actions as governor was to veto a bill passed by the state of florida congress setting strict guidelines for teacher performance, and any teacher who falls below those guidelines for 4 years out of 5 loses their job.

    Not all teachers are bad, I've known many good ones, as well as many horrible ones. How many bad teachers (or principals, or guidance counselors, etc) does it take to wreck education? Why should parents have to tolerate incompetence in teachers just because they've been there a while?

    And i'm not a neocon Just very financially conservative, and a firm believer in minimalistic federal government, with individual state governments having more control. Local issues, local solutions. I'd be a constitutionalist except they are psychos religiously, and libertarians just don't quite cut it either.

    Half the time in threads like this I just play devils advocate

    LEt me ask you this: if this is ridiculous, how do you entice the best teachers, administrators etc... to go there? Based on the crime issues, and other problems based on expectations (and the silly NCLB) what would pull a good teacher there?

    For me personally, I would have no reason to do it. I taught in a very blue collar district before, that had a higer crime rate, and to be honest I have no desire to deal with that issue again.

    I do agree that there are problems with tenure and would welcome a 3 year tenure evaluation(I am a tenured teacher mind you) as I know there are some horrible ones. However, to blame newark on teachers is ludicrous
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Again, who was it dsade was referring to on ad hominem grits I wonder....

    and again, why continue to throw more and more and more money on what doesn't work? This is just like stimulus packages in congress. One of the definitions of insanity is repeatedly performing the same steps, and expecting a different result. There is no reason why it should cost more to educate 2 students in Newark to have one of them drop out than it costs to educate 6 students in Los Angeles.
    Easier to address the symptoms, than it is to cure the disease approach? So I ask you what plan would you implement to solve education spending? I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you don't have one, because you're unaware of all the underlying issues in and around Newark, in other words your opinions are uninformed, I.E. talking points. You take a very simple approach to complex issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    LEt me ask you this: if this is ridiculous, how do you entice the best teachers, administrators etc... to go there? Based on the crime issues, and other problems based on expectations (and the silly NCLB) what would pull a good teacher there?

    For me personally, I would have no reason to do it. I taught in a very blue collar district before, that had a higer crime rate, and to be honest I have no desire to deal with that issue again.

    I do agree that there are problems with tenure and would welcome a 3 year tenure evaluation(I am a tenured teacher mind you) as I know there are some horrible ones. However, to blame newark on teachers is ludicrous
    With no ability to change the teachers, calling blaming it on teachers ludicrous is silly. They are involved, they are part of the process. Trying to remove all blame is ludicrous. Are they 100% at fault? No there are other environmental issues, however in other areas with those same environmental issues costs are lower and results are better.

    I think part of the solution there is starting with more better earlier education. A second significant part is use of things like the Dolly Parton Imagination Library, a non-profit run by The United Way in a lot of areas (may be run by others elsewhere). Its a program that monthly puts a single new book in childrens hands from birth to age 5, when they should be starting school. Studies have already shown that the number of books in a house is a better predictor of a child's success in school than the eduction level of their parents. So you start earlier, have the children be better prepared at grade school, and then make sure grade school is taught well.

    Getting better teachers in the high schools themselves is a tougher one though, because who the hell would want to subject themselves to that? My daughter goes to a high school ranked around #140 nationally, and there are still gangs and drug dealers there. I had pondered as a part of a first "retirement" going in to teaching, but my skillset would lend itself best to high school teaching, and screw that
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Easier to address the symptoms, than it is to cure the disease approach? So I ask you what plan would you implement to solve education spending? I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you don't have one, because you're unaware of all the underlying issues in and around Newark, in other words your opinions are uninformed, I.E. talking points. You take a very simple approach to complex issues.
    More and more ad hominem attacks. You can't find a direct flaw in what I say, so instead you call my opinions uninformed. It must be wonderful to be you.

    Apparently you think its a success story to spend 3x what the rest of the country does to have half the students not graduate, or that teachers have nothing to do with the education that children receive. Pick which one of the two it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    With no ability to change the teachers, calling blaming it on teachers ludicrous is silly. They are involved, they are part of the process. Trying to remove all blame is ludicrous. Are they 100% at fault? No there are other environmental issues, however in other areas with those same environmental issues costs are lower and results are better.

    I think part of the solution there is starting with more better earlier education. A second significant part is use of things like the Dolly Parton Imagination Library, a non-profit run by The United Way in a lot of areas (may be run by others elsewhere). Its a program that monthly puts a single new book in childrens hands from birth to age 5, when they should be starting school. Studies have already shown that the number of books in a house is a better predictor of a child's success in school than the eduction level of their parents. So you start earlier, have the children be better prepared at grade school, and then make sure grade school is taught well.

    Getting better teachers in the high schools themselves is a tougher one though, because who the hell would want to subject themselves to that? My daughter goes to a high school ranked around #140 nationally, and there are still gangs and drug dealers there. I had pondered as a part of a first "retirement" going in to teaching, but my skillset would lend itself best to high school teaching, and screw that
    When you say teach high school, are you referring to a real one, or the one Billy Madison went to?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    With no ability to change the teachers, calling blaming it on teachers ludicrous is silly. They are involved, they are part of the process. Trying to remove all blame is ludicrous. Are they 100% at fault? No there are other environmental issues, however in other areas with those same environmental issues costs are lower and results are better.

    I think part of the solution there is starting with more better earlier education. A second significant part is use of things like the Dolly Parton Imagination Library, a non-profit run by The United Way in a lot of areas (may be run by others elsewhere). Its a program that monthly puts a single new book in childrens hands from birth to age 5, when they should be starting school. Studies have already shown that the number of books in a house is a better predictor of a child's success in school than the eduction level of their parents. So you start earlier, have the children be better prepared at grade school, and then make sure grade school is taught well.

    Getting better teachers in the high schools themselves is a tougher one though, because who the hell would want to subject themselves to that? My daughter goes to a high school ranked around #140 nationally, and there are still gangs and drug dealers there. I had pondered as a part of a first "retirement" going in to teaching, but my skillset would lend itself best to high school teaching, and screw that
    I am in no way saying that teachers arent part of the problem. I am referring to your inference that they are the entire problem. It is multifaceted for sure.

    In terms of submitting yourself to it. I will never forget my first day student teaching years ago, and a very troubled high school junior at the time (this is 10 years ago) decided he didnt like my "attitude" and he would challenge me to a fight. It was certainly not something that I had ever thought about or was taught about in grad school. It is not worth the drama at times. Even where I teach now (which is top 10 in NJ) there are still some problems, not like the ones before, but I have had kids come to class too high and then vomit in the room. I have stories that astound me and I was there.

    Education has changed so greatly that it can be a scary prospect. You should try it though Easy. If you find the right school, the job is a friggin blast.

    I will say this, when some of my male student get a little too ****y, I offer them the opportunity to come to the weight room to lift with me for a bit, and I get to use a real high volume routine. Their behavior changes drastically
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    More and more ad hominem attacks. You can't find a direct flaw in what I say, so instead you call my opinions uninformed. It must be wonderful to be you.

    Apparently you think its a success story to spend 3x what the rest of the country does to have half the students not graduate, or that teachers have nothing to do with the education that children receive. Pick which one of the two it is.
    Again...what plan would you implement to limit education spending? WE ALL KNOW THAT'S A COMPLEX QUESTION, A BIT ABOVE YOUR PAY GRADE, BUT WHY NOT ENLIGHTEN US ALL WITH YOUR VAST KNOWLEDGE OF BUDGETARY SPENDING?

    You offer a lot of opinions...but never any real ANSWERS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Again...what plan would you implement to limit education spending? WE ALL KNOW THAT'S A COMPLEX QUESTION, A BIT ABOVE YOUR PAY GRADE, BUT WHY NOT ENLIGHTEN US ALL WITH YOUR VAST KNOWLEDGE OF BUDGETARY SPENDING?
    I have taken school finance, and it sucks. Just thought I would throw that in there
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I have taken school finance, and it sucks. Just thought I would throw that in there
    I was a dual major, Finance and Political Science. =)
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    When you say teach high school, are you referring to a real one, or the one Billy Madison went to?
    Your ad hominem attacks are getting boring, i'm going to put you back on ignore now, byebye
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I am in no way saying that teachers arent part of the problem. I am referring to your inference that they are the entire problem. It is multifaceted for sure.

    In terms of submitting yourself to it. I will never forget my first day student teaching years ago, and a very troubled high school junior at the time (this is 10 years ago) decided he didnt like my "attitude" and he would challenge me to a fight. It was certainly not something that I had ever thought about or was taught about in grad school. It is not worth the drama at times. Even where I teach now (which is top 10 in NJ) there are still some problems, not like the ones before, but I have had kids come to class too high and then vomit in the room. I have stories that astound me and I was there.

    Education has changed so greatly that it can be a scary prospect. You should try it though Easy. If you find the right school, the job is a friggin blast.

    I will say this, when some of my male student get a little too ****y, I offer them the opportunity to come to the weight room to lift with me for a bit, and I get to use a real high volume routine. Their behavior changes drastically
    I never inferred they were the entire cause of the problem, however they are a piece of the issue that should be under state/local control. Its difficult for the state or local authorities to enforce parental involvement, and its also difficult to control crime. But continuing to throw money down a failed path isn't the answer either, nor is throwing your hands up in the air. The way the schools are run is the most controllable piece of the equation, yet the special interest group of teachers unions keeps the hands tied from making any changes to it.

    In Hawaii for example, with the Furlough Fridays (students and teachers getting every friday off due to budget issues) making the state that is 49th in education also having the shortest school year, the state found the money to cover teachers salaries. However, there wasn't enough to also cover non-educational staff, such as school board members. The teachers union refused to accept the offer. Tell me, is that good for education? No, its good for the teachers union though.
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    I'm off to the gym. Not sure what you guys will get out of it, but have fun debating with Billy Madison. I'm just waiting for Captain Insano to show up.
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    This is one of the times I miss Zero V and his rational contributions to threads like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    This is one of the times I miss Zero V and his rational contributions to threads like this.
    Yes, he was quite a zippo, always ready to burst into flames.
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