Obama to support ground zero mosque

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Condition1 View Post
    I had to look a little more into this. The "mosque" is being built 3-5 blocks over a building in ruins that has been for sale at a very low price. The sight isn't even visible from ground zero due to buildings being in the way. It's, by definition, not a mosque (where people go only for prayer and worship, whatnot.) It's something of a culinary school with a basketball court and 2 floors for muslim worship.

    All of this fear mongering is turning this country into a Nazi state.
    A mosque is a HUGE ass place and it's very boring. They walk in, pray, read the Quarn(some do some don't), walk out. That's it! This building doesn't look like a mosque but there calling it that.
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  2. Quote Originally Posted by Harry Manback View Post
    So lets say someone is acting under their rights, but doing so to spite us in a horrible way, it's ok? Come on. There's got to be a line drawn somewhere. The constitution that was written hundreds of years ago did not envision the type of chaos that goes on these days. Everyone talks about change. Well change is going to have to apply to our "rights" as well. It's gotten out of hand. All this PC garbage has to stop as well. It's bad enough I'm a white man in America these days. But it all ties in to this situation. So many of us feel one way but speak another. Very hypocritical. And all of this because of "religion"? Essentially it boils down to either having human rights or God rights. Pick one.
    if they are doing it out of spite at all ??? no one knows.you gotta believe we have spies within their group watching them.we ran back ground checks on them and everything else.they came up clean and have been given the green light to build.if we in the usa stopped them from building this place we open the flood gates to other acts of hate.the usa is one of the few places where anyone can actually make it and hopefully it stays this way.
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  3. What about the fact that Immam Rauf refuses to denounce terrorist organizations including Hamas. He says one thing about peace here, but goes to the middle east and gives arab interviews that contradict his peaceful statements. No one has been able to refute the fact that for centuries islam has built mosques at sites where they have conquered and turned the states into muslim states. And the fact that the building they bought was damaged by airplane parts from the ATTACK that muslims inflicted on the US. So if it was damaged during their attack, I would consider that part of ground zero.

  4. I think the problem with America today is too many right. We have no identity anymore because we have no focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You can feel free to dislike someone because they act out of spite, but that doesn't mean our government should treat them any differently unless they are committing a crime.
    Define crime? Crime is what we are taught it is by the current people in power. I would find any form of betrayal a crime, but for the most part its a general practice in America.

    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    as much as some may not like this they have every right to build it
    And rednecks have the right to do what they are going to do to it lol. Not necessarily a law-based right(but our laws are now useless and flawed beyond repair, best taken as advice and your true laws left to your moral understanding and desire to stay out from behind bars). But a universal right transcending land laws. By that I mean People A said: If you build that, we gona blow it up. People B said : We dont care, your a buncha panzies, we shall insult you anyways People A then: blow it up... Its the right of common sense.

    Common sense to me means, when an action is going to happen that you wont like, avoid it, no? America protects stupid people, hell we even elect them as presidents, but at some point its gona stop. And it wont be pretty.


    It will be interesting when it all goes down. Because I wonder if it will spark a jihad thingy, or a racial conflict, or a civil war, or nothing at all and we call it tragedy and all go out for ice cream....

    Here is another big question....cant just 3 Christian or Catholic or Jewish "extremists" blow it all to hell, then the rest of the Christian/Catholic/Jewish community suffer absolutely nothing from it? I mean thats how the muslims roll, only seems fair and there are a helluvalot more than 3 who are probably willing or planning on it already. I run into alot of rednecks. Budweiser isnt explosive is it? Because if it is, were all screwed they have the mother load!

    Wait we should call the crusaders from the days of the crusades extremists as well I think.(Then gain consider that the soldiers were a forced tithe from any country under the papacy's control, hell a chunk of them probably were not even fighting for the catholic belief). People look at it as a united offensive, when really the pull of soldiers from each nation left it weaker while they were already fighting wars against each other over land/ old disputes/ etc. I doubt the kings wanted a portion of their troops to go riding off thousands of miles to a war that would not benefit them...


    Im not saying blow it up, but man every one with a Nascar hat will be on their way lol. In essence, the American people have voted "no" on the subject and plan to enforce their vote.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by AtlasEnduring View Post
    Here is another big question....cant just 3 Christian or Catholic or Jewish "extremists" blow it all to hell, then the rest of the Christian/Catholic/Jewish community suffer absolutely nothing from it?
    You mean like Oklahoma City?
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    You mean like Oklahoma City?
    Forgive my ignorance But can you explain? I am sure there is a story to it, but I dont know it.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by AtlasEnduring View Post
    Forgive my ignorance But can you explain? I am sure there is a story to it, but I dont know it.
    The Oklahoma City terrorist bombing was committed by Christians. There has been little to no major backlash against christians in general specifically because of it.
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    The Oklahoma City terrorist bombing was committed by Christians. There has been little to no major backlash against christians in general specifically because of it.
    Ah, ok I think I can recollect some of that story now. Still its a bit harder to compare something like that, to the world trade centers. Something small time like that, to something as grand and multifaceted as 9/11? Dont forget the pentagon, and the one plane that never made it.

    EDIT: BTW, I posted your freaking sig onto my facebook. I laughed pretty hard

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  9. Did Tim Mcveigh and Terry Nichols do their atrocious act in the name of Jesus? I don't recall that part. Because they were Christians doesn't automatically make them religious extremist like Islamic terrorists. If I recall they had a beef with the govt and went off the deep end. But if they didn't do it as a part of their fanatical christianity its like apples to oranges. The history and motives behind it are completely different than the Islamic terrorists that attacked us on 9/11 as part of their RELIGIOUS JIHAD against America. So the Oklahoma city bombing as horrific as it was doesn't hold water as justification to allow this particular group of Muslims the have ties to terrorist organizations, ie the Muslim Brotherhood, to build a mosque as a symbol of their American conquest.

    What about the fact that aren't any residential areas any where close to ground zero any way and people would have to go across the city and pass other mosques to get there.

  10. Stop calling it a mosque, because it's not a mosque. The building is double digits and only 2 floors are dedicated for "prayer." Stop saying it's being built on ground zero, because it's not, despite you're personal definition of ground zero (not to call anyone out.) It's 2-3 blocks in a diagonal direction from the corner of ground zero.

    As for the conspiracy theories, because that's just what they're becoming: Don't let fear mongering get the best of you. There are a lot of things being taken out of context, as usual.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    What about the fact that aren't any residential areas any where close to ground zero any way and people would have to go across the city and pass other mosques to get there.
    There is a christian church and a catholic church much closer to ground zero than the proposed "mosque" is. Let's just change the definition of community center and call it a mosque.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Condition1 View Post
    There is a christian church and a catholic church much closer to ground zero than the proposed "mosque" is. Let's just change the definition of community center and call it a mosque.
    Community center...for Muslims. It has a mosque in it...

    What this really is, is people trying to resist the Muslim influence on our nation. For some odd reason, the government is "over" supporting it which is weird...

    And just as they technically have a right to build it, we technically have the right to say "no" and prevent it. Those who are here first, have the right to do so. Those whose beliefs aided in the building of America I believe have the right to say no in such things. America was not built, in any form, off of muslim faith. Muslim faith as far as I can see only results in poor countries full of angry people, proclaiming peace lol. The only thing I see that I liked is their law system. You cheat on someone, we kill you. You steal, we kill you. You kill, we kill you. But their shiiara law or whatever its called also goes.... Your Gay, we kill you. You dont agree, we kill you. You a woman and dont wear headgear, we kill you.

    And that is what the moderates of their faith follow and do. Death because of that law system happens daily, and those are the crimes. Hell even here in the states they carry it out. You know why those teen muslim girls still wear headgear? Not out of faith, but because they will STILL be killed here in America for it. It happens.

    You can say freedom of religion, but I also say...There is a freedom to resist something we dont like. Tolerance does not mean we have to accept them, it means we tolerate a certain "level" but we limit a point where we no longer tolerate, and then we have to retaliate or lose our identity.

    Its drawing close to that retaliation time. About 90% of people I meet daily, if we come to talking about muslims, they hate them. Even if they know nice ones, they hate muslims as a whole. Its really not going to go well. What does the muslim community stand to gain by building it? Does that outweigh the price they will pay? Or is that what they want?

    You cannot "cut off" terrorist funding for it as of now, no way you can its too late. If that is a facet of it that is. So what is a great strategy to hit America a second time?

    Well now that you have so many muslims here, build something in such a way it will become a target for extremists of another faith that America is recognized for. Then when it gets attacked and destroyed, you now have an excuse to get all the muslims in an uproar, and get a real jihad going.

    Damn is there not one person here who understands military stratagems and political subterfuge? This building/mosque/community center has essentially been denied by the American people, yet thanks to people higher up it will likely get forced through. Then when what is gona happen, happens....it gives them excuses for violence...A way to rally the peaceful ones into a more conflict oriented mindset, and so on. Muslims are blind in faith, and can be driven into doing things. Like any one of any faith, the majority of them are going to be more sheepish and can be slightly manipulated.

  13. [QUOTE=Harry Manback;2562274]So lets say someone is acting under their rights, but doing so to spite us in a horrible way, it's ok? Come on. There's got to be a line drawn somewhere. The constitution that was written hundreds of years ago did not envision the type of chaos that goes on these days. Everyone talks about change. Well change is going to have to apply to our "rights" as well. It's gotten out of hand. All this PC garbage has to stop as well. It's bad enough I'm a white man in America these days. But it all ties in to this situation. So many of us feel one way but speak another. Very hypocritical. And all of this because of "religion"? Essentially it boils down to either having human rights or God rights. Pick one.[/Q

    So, lets see exactly whats wrong with what you said...
    1)The constitution was written hundreds of years ago and did not envision the type of chaos that goes on these days.
    "The founders understood that in framing the constitution they were trying to limit the power of government by taking human nature from the equation. The constitution has been attacked as archaic and obsolete for a myriad of reasons. These attacks illustrate a basic misunderstanding of the constitutions purpose"
    The constitution may not have envisioned everything that could possibly happen, but it did leave room for something we like to call "Ammendments" Thank GOD for the constitution, without it human nature is to hate whatever is different and become ignorant and classify everyone in a certain group as having the same characteristics. Maybe we should put them all in concentration camps? I'm sure you would be happy with that.
    2)Change is going to have to apply to our rights as well.
    Really,now? Personally, I like my rights. You're welcome to give up yours if you like. Or, did you mean that all muslims should lose their rights? I'M ALL FOR TERRORIST HAVING NO RIGHTS AND THEY SHOULD BE DEALT WITH ACCORDING TO THE LAW. To single out a single religion is at the very least ignorant. Every religion has had terrorist at some point.
    3) All this PC garbage has to stop
    I actually agree with you on something. You should be allowed to say just about whatever you want. However, that has nothing to do with letting people of a certain religion practice their reigion without having to feel peseccuted. I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons the pilgrims came over was to escape that very thing.
    4) It's hard enough I'm a white man in America these days
    Seriously guy? Whens the last time you're application got pushed to the back because they saw the name Javier Gonzalez or whatever name and decided to give him the interview first.I'm sure you have some really white sounding name and 9 times out of 10 youre gonna get the interview first. Hard being a white man in America.....thats funny. I could go so far into this.
    5) Human rights or God rights
    As a human you have the right to worship ny God you choose.

    I could keep going but I had a long day training so that I can go overseas and protect the constitution that allows you those rights that you feel need to be changed.You know the ones that allow you to have an oppinion and actually say what you think in an open forum.
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  14. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You are missing the fact that for white conservative males, the best we can ask for is less goverment involvement. And yet here you are asking for more government involvement, hoping for legislation of morality. Hoping they will pass a law to avoid someone acting in a spiteful way.
    Well stated.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Condition1 View Post
    I had to look a little more into this. The "mosque" is being built 3-5 blocks over a building in ruins that has been for sale at a very low price. The sight isn't even visible from ground zero due to buildings being in the way. It's, by definition, not a mosque (where people go only for prayer and worship, whatnot.) It's something of a culinary school with a basketball court and 2 floors for muslim worship.

    All of this fear mongering is turning this country into a Nazi state.
    Agreed.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by AtlasEnduring View Post
    Ah, ok I think I can recollect some of that story now. Still its a bit harder to compare something like that, to the world trade centers. Something small time like that, to something as grand and multifaceted as 9/11? Dont forget the pentagon, and the one plane that never made it.

    EDIT: BTW, I posted your freaking sig onto my facebook. I laughed pretty hard

    "Blood, Sweat, and Tears doesn't mean crying while you struggle to put your tampon in." ~dsade
    While you cannot compare the two separate acts, you can compare the intent behind those acts. And that is what the previous poster is alluding to. There are churches built in and around the area where the Oklahoma City bombing took place. McVeigh was a christian and sought to make mention of that prior to his execution. The point is, while not agreeing with a Mosque being built close to ground zero, they are within their rights to do so. Additionally, it is more of a community rec center, that just happens to house a Mosque, similar to a YMCA.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    While you cannot compare the two separate acts, you can compare the intent behind those acts. And that is what the previous poster is alluding to. There are churches built in and around the area where the Oklahoma City bombing took place. McVeigh was a christian and sought to make mention of that prior to his execution. The point is, while not agreeing with a Mosque being built close to ground zero, they are within their rights to do so. Additionally, it is more of a community rec center, that just happens to house a Mosque, similar to a YMCA.
    McVeigh....dude he was upset about the Waco incident, from what I have gathered after looking into it...

    If anything if you read up on him, he was created by the United States military. A child of true PTSD, in my opinion from what I have seen. He was purely in it for an anti-government reason, and used the Waco incident as an excuse to take action. He wrote an essay I was going over about what the U.S. was doing in war.

    Even satan believes in God, doesnt make him a Christian....

    As for the mosque, the points been made...regardless of what you and I believe, the outcome wont be changed by our beliefs if they build it. That is my point, they really will have no reason to cry about it being blown up if they build it when half of America would enjoy that.

    Its like when someone chooses to drink and drive and they die...yeah they have that freedom of choice, but I wont cry because of their death...I will morn for those whom they may have injured as a side effect though.

    All I am saying is if you have dedicated extremists who already have the stance they will blow it, probably setting back supplies or God knows what, then why will every one call it a "tragedy" when it could have been 100% avoided...

    Unless like I stated, it is a military intent of muslim radicals to purposely make themselves appear as victems giving them a right to retaliate in their minds, and in conjunction rallying the more peaceful muslims into a more conflict oriented mindset.

    So McVeigh-the PTSD product of the United States dirty laundry in a political war and targeting government workers, vs muslim extremists wanting to be martyrs and inflict as much harm on anything American as they can(aka infidels, government workers or citizens its all the same), regardless of their standings politically. One was an upset mentally deranged citizen, and one was a group of religious soldiers doing it for a false god....Not the same at all.

    EDIT: let me bring up a fact proven by history. Christians and muslims cannot co-exist in the same place. Over there, they kill Christians all the time. And no, not the extremists, your average muslim community. Yet Christian nations dont kill muslims all the time. Weird huh...But its bad blood, and its slowly breeding hate here in America. Christians dealing with muslims and vice versa, they do not agree at all. Even the nice ones of each hate the others. You are putting gasoline beside gasoline and setting a fire between them. A nation is either going to be Christian, or muslim. It cannot house both, and should it try....well War WILL come eventually. But instead of some revolution or something, its going to be a religious war.

    Pick your poison, man will fight and kill each other. Many "try" to blame religion....but even without it they would kill. Heck religion at least teachers some of them mercy, which is what creates more conservative sides of faiths and saves lives. Where as if it was war without religion, it would just be pure hatred and anger with no reason to feel guilt for it or to show mercy.

    Yeah my beliefs are Christian, I have my reasons for my beliefs. And I also have my reasons to distrust the muslim community.

    And to be clear I am not saying I'm 100% right or your 100% right. No, instead I am saying look at the facts, look at the manuscript laid before us. Read a chapter ahead in the book, and for once in our lives prevent something instead of watching it come and complain about why it happened instead of preventing it.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by AtlasEnduring View Post
    McVeigh....dude he was upset about the Waco incident, from what I have gathered after looking into it...

    If anything if you read up on him, he was created by the United States military. A child of true PTSD, in my opinion from what I have seen. He was purely in it for an anti-government reason, and used the Waco incident as an excuse to take action. He wrote an essay I was going over about what the U.S. was doing in war.

    Even satan believes in God, doesnt make him a Christian....

    As for the mosque, the points been made...regardless of what you and I believe, the outcome wont be changed by our beliefs if they build it. That is my point, they really will have no reason to cry about it being blown up if they build it when half of America would enjoy that.

    Its like when someone chooses to drink and drive and they die...yeah they have that freedom of choice, but I wont cry because of their death...I will morn for those whom they may have injured as a side effect though.

    All I am saying is if you have dedicated extremists who already have the stance they will blow it, probably setting back supplies or God knows what, then why will every one call it a "tragedy" when it could have been 100% avoided...

    Unless like I stated, it is a military intent of muslim radicals to purposely make themselves appear as victems giving them a right to retaliate in their minds, and in conjunction rallying the more peaceful muslims into a more conflict oriented mindset.

    So McVeigh-the PTSD product of the United States dirty laundry in a political war and targeting government workers, vs muslim extremists wanting to be martyrs and inflict as much harm on anything American as they can(aka infidels, government workers or citizens its all the same), regardless of their standings politically. One was an upset mentally deranged citizen, and one was a group of religious soldiers doing it for a false god....Not the same at all.

    EDIT: let me bring up a fact proven by history. Christians and muslims cannot co-exist in the same place. Over there, they kill Christians all the time. And no, not the extremists, your average muslim community. Yet Christian nations dont kill muslims all the time. Weird huh...But its bad blood, and its slowly breeding hate here in America. Christians dealing with muslims and vice versa, they do not agree at all. Even the nice ones of each hate the others. You are putting gasoline beside gasoline and setting a fire between them. A nation is either going to be Christian, or muslim. It cannot house both, and should it try....well War WILL come eventually. But instead of some revolution or something, its going to be a religious war.

    Pick your poison, man will fight and kill each other. Many "try" to blame religion....but even without it they would kill. Heck religion at least teachers some of them mercy, which is what creates more conservative sides of faiths and saves lives. Where as if it was war without religion, it would just be pure hatred and anger with no reason to feel guilt for it or to show mercy.

    Yeah my beliefs are Christian, I have my reasons for my beliefs. And I also have my reasons to distrust the muslim community.

    And to be clear I am not saying I'm 100% right or your 100% right. No, instead I am saying look at the facts, look at the manuscript laid before us. Read a chapter ahead in the book, and for once in our lives prevent something instead of watching it come and complain about why it happened instead of preventing it.
    Good post. I'm glad someone acknowledges my point about McVeigh. No where have I heard of him doing that in the name of Jesus or anything close to it. It was a completely different set of circumstances. People that don't understand the true Muslim faith don't understand their mandate from Allah they must convert the infidels or kill them. The other reason the blow themselves up is too ensure entry into Heaven. The live by a system of good works vs. bad works. At the end of their life, they have to have done more goods than bad to get into Heaven. BUT, if one isn't sure if they have done enough good, they have an exit strategy, which ironically is bad works. Die as a martyr in the jihad. It overcomes everything bad in their life. So if one is in a mosque with radical immam teaching, like the Fort Hood assassin was when he attended the northern VA mosque, they are encouraged to become a martyr. Funny how that Immam fled to pakistan after being linked to numerous terrorist attacks.

    So you can't have it both ways. You have to understand Islam is about world domination. Immam Rauf has said in the past how to take over America is slowly, one piece at a time. Kind of like the communist plan to take over America.

  19. My general point is that there are many individuals/groups out there, who in the name of religion have committed atrocities.

    Individuals claiming Christianity have taken the lives of abortion doctor(s). While I don't in my heart of hearts support a Mosque being built close to ground zero (I'm from NY), I support their rights to be able to do so.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    While you cannot compare the two separate acts, you can compare the intent behind those acts. And that is what the previous poster is alluding to. There are churches built in and around the area where the Oklahoma City bombing took place. McVeigh was a christian and sought to make mention of that prior to his execution. The point is, while not agreeing with a Mosque being built close to ground zero, they are within their rights to do so. Additionally, it is more of a community rec center, that just happens to house a Mosque, similar to a YMCA.
    You posted here that McVeigh did it in the name of Religion. You said the intent was the same which is not the case.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    You posted here that McVeigh did it in the name of Religion. You said the intent was the same which is not the case.
    Reports circulated that he had a loose affiliation with Elohim City, a Christian Identity commune in Oklahoma. In an interview given to Time Magazine in 2001, McVeigh also mentioned literature that centered deeply around the Christian Identity movement, the Turner Diaries.

    Extreme religious ideology factors largely into these types of acts, including the killing of abortion doctors, such as Dr. George Tiller, whose killer implicitly stated that he was carrying out god's work.

  22. Everything I've read on Elohim City and McVeighs association point to a shared anti-government sentiment. They were retaliating for the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents as opposed to a religious attack.

    Now the guy that killed Dr Tiller is a nut job and as a Christian denounce his "doing Gods work". That is clearly someone with a perverted form of Christianity just as in Elohim City.

  23. Ugh, I am so sick of hearing of this debate.

    Want my opinion? Get rid of religion in general, it is the cause of all this hate.

    Don't agree with me? Then don't think you are any better than a Muslim, or have any more right to a church/mosque than they do. If you believe in freedom of religion for your religion, you damn well believe in it for any other religion.

    Build the mosque, end of story, get back to issues that matter.
    Just inject.
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  24. Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Ugh, I am so sick of hearing of this debate.

    Want my opinion? Get rid of religion in general, it is the cause of all this hate.

    Don't agree with me? Then don't think you are any better than a Muslim, or have any more right to a church/mosque than they do. If you believe in freedom of religion for your religion, you damn well believe in it for any other religion.

    Build the mosque, end of story, get back to issues that matter.
    Amen to that. Organized religion has done more to create divisions throughout the world, than to unite under us under any common thread.
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