Obama to support ground zero mosque
- 09-07-2010, 01:06 AM
- 09-07-2010, 01:13 AM
09-07-2010, 01:45 AM
If anything if you read up on him, he was created by the United States military. A child of true PTSD, in my opinion from what I have seen. He was purely in it for an anti-government reason, and used the Waco incident as an excuse to take action. He wrote an essay I was going over about what the U.S. was doing in war.
Even satan believes in God, doesnt make him a Christian....
As for the mosque, the points been made...regardless of what you and I believe, the outcome wont be changed by our beliefs if they build it. That is my point, they really will have no reason to cry about it being blown up if they build it when half of America would enjoy that.
Its like when someone chooses to drink and drive and they die...yeah they have that freedom of choice, but I wont cry because of their death...I will morn for those whom they may have injured as a side effect though.
All I am saying is if you have dedicated extremists who already have the stance they will blow it, probably setting back supplies or God knows what, then why will every one call it a "tragedy" when it could have been 100% avoided...
Unless like I stated, it is a military intent of muslim radicals to purposely make themselves appear as victems giving them a right to retaliate in their minds, and in conjunction rallying the more peaceful muslims into a more conflict oriented mindset.
So McVeigh-the PTSD product of the United States dirty laundry in a political war and targeting government workers, vs muslim extremists wanting to be martyrs and inflict as much harm on anything American as they can(aka infidels, government workers or citizens its all the same), regardless of their standings politically. One was an upset mentally deranged citizen, and one was a group of religious soldiers doing it for a false god....Not the same at all.
EDIT: let me bring up a fact proven by history. Christians and muslims cannot co-exist in the same place. Over there, they kill Christians all the time. And no, not the extremists, your average muslim community. Yet Christian nations dont kill muslims all the time. Weird huh...But its bad blood, and its slowly breeding hate here in America. Christians dealing with muslims and vice versa, they do not agree at all. Even the nice ones of each hate the others. You are putting gasoline beside gasoline and setting a fire between them. A nation is either going to be Christian, or muslim. It cannot house both, and should it try....well War WILL come eventually. But instead of some revolution or something, its going to be a religious war.
Pick your poison, man will fight and kill each other. Many "try" to blame religion....but even without it they would kill. Heck religion at least teachers some of them mercy, which is what creates more conservative sides of faiths and saves lives. Where as if it was war without religion, it would just be pure hatred and anger with no reason to feel guilt for it or to show mercy.
Yeah my beliefs are Christian, I have my reasons for my beliefs. And I also have my reasons to distrust the muslim community.
And to be clear I am not saying I'm 100% right or your 100% right. No, instead I am saying look at the facts, look at the manuscript laid before us. Read a chapter ahead in the book, and for once in our lives prevent something instead of watching it come and complain about why it happened instead of preventing it.
09-07-2010, 08:37 AM
So you can't have it both ways. You have to understand Islam is about world domination. Immam Rauf has said in the past how to take over America is slowly, one piece at a time. Kind of like the communist plan to take over America.
09-07-2010, 10:34 AM
My general point is that there are many individuals/groups out there, who in the name of religion have committed atrocities.
Individuals claiming Christianity have taken the lives of abortion doctor(s). While I don't in my heart of hearts support a Mosque being built close to ground zero (I'm from NY), I support their rights to be able to do so.
09-07-2010, 11:48 AM
09-07-2010, 01:34 PM
Extreme religious ideology factors largely into these types of acts, including the killing of abortion doctors, such as Dr. George Tiller, whose killer implicitly stated that he was carrying out god's work.
09-07-2010, 03:07 PM
Everything I've read on Elohim City and McVeighs association point to a shared anti-government sentiment. They were retaliating for the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents as opposed to a religious attack.
Now the guy that killed Dr Tiller is a nut job and as a Christian denounce his "doing Gods work". That is clearly someone with a perverted form of Christianity just as in Elohim City.
09-07-2010, 03:14 PM
Ugh, I am so sick of hearing of this debate.
Want my opinion? Get rid of religion in general, it is the cause of all this hate.
Don't agree with me? Then don't think you are any better than a Muslim, or have any more right to a church/mosque than they do. If you believe in freedom of religion for your religion, you damn well believe in it for any other religion.
Build the mosque, end of story, get back to issues that matter.
09-07-2010, 04:15 PM
09-07-2010, 04:47 PM
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...Quran.Burning/ <----Let's attempt to rationalize this one?
Or as I like to call it, the conservative strategy of..."Let's piss them off and see if that works"...brilliant.
09-07-2010, 05:23 PM
09-07-2010, 05:35 PM
Burning a Quran is blatant hate though, just as burning a bible would be. Both of these statements coming from a very proud athiest. I am anti-religion, but I have no reason to actively spread hate about a religion or target it. My family is religious, I do not in any form condemn them. When religions start treating each other the same way, life would be easier.
The prophet was featured in south park many seasons ago, previous to the debate that happened last season.
09-07-2010, 05:38 PM
Burning the US flag was determined to be protected by freedom of speech, no reason burning a Quaran is any different. Just like no laws against them building a civic center more than 2 blocks away from ground zero.
09-07-2010, 05:43 PM
Burn an american flag in front of a patriot, you will probably get your ass kicked.
Burn a gay pride flag in front of a homosexual, get your ass kicked.
Burn a bible in front of a christian, expect retaliation.
Why is this seen as something that wouldnt, by nature, lead to retaliation?
09-07-2010, 05:49 PM
How about people actually act on the morality they claim to have? I don't recall anywhere in the bible where it says it's cool to kick anyone's ass over ink on paper anything...nor words, nor much of anything else.
They are doing what they think is right/within their rights. Should the threat of violence by ignorants make them cower?
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09-07-2010, 05:49 PM
Why can't burning the Quaran be viewed as retaliation for them burning US flags in the street and carrying presidential effigies around?
Just because someone is doing something out of retaliation doesn't make them morally superior to the person who did what offends them.
09-07-2010, 06:06 PM
God I always make myself promise to stay out of political threads, and again here I end up...
Anyone who thinks actively burning the Quran, or any book from any culture or religion is the "right" thing to do is inadequately equipped mentally. I'd love to hear how it is the right thing to do. P.S. Extremist thought 9/11 was the right thing to do. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. Belief you are doing the right thing doesnt equate to it being the correct thing to do.
It can be viewed as retaliation. Doesnt make it right. Retaliation leads to more retaliation which leads to more retaliation. The problem is this: When you are attacking the Quran, you are attacking the religion. One that 95+% of its followers have no association a terrorist group. I know many here are not city people, which can lead to more shielded views of other races/religions (I dont mean this offensively - my views on both are different living in a mixed neighborhood than when I was in suburbia). But I am sure you have all met a follower of Islam at some point. Did they try to kill you? Would they if they had the chance? In 99% of cases the answers are no.
This would be no different than if I started burning down churches because I saw on TV a pedo got arrested. I mean Catholics are pedophiles right? Even their leaders, all pedos correct? No, that is not true. Not at all. Now you see how associating the thoughts of a few to the masses does not work.
09-07-2010, 06:18 PM
As with racism, people who are looking to be offended will find a way to be offended regardless of what you do unless you totally kowtow to them.
09-07-2010, 06:19 PM
Personally I'm not the least bit religious, so I believe all religions are fair play. Comedy is comedy and that's fine, however, if you get into areas that hint at extremism, you're asking for trouble. There is nothing right about what this so called "christian" deems appropriate in the form of burning copies of the Qur'an, irrespective of what they do on their side (flag burning), we should always look to uphold ourselves to a higher standard of decency.
This idiot has every right in the world to burn the Qur'an, however, it doesn't preclude him from being a nimrod. I'm going to venture a guess and say that this "preacher" in all likelihood received a very limited education.
09-07-2010, 06:21 PM
09-07-2010, 06:49 PM
Should I start burning bibles in the street because the Catholic Church still thinks women using contraception are whores? Or because they preach only abstinence? Lets ask Bristol how that is working out...
I also am not looking to be offended. As I mentioned, if I had my way, Religion would disappear, overnight, and I would be a happy man. I have no need to protect Islam or any other religion. I personally say to hell with them all.
..and SouthPaw, I am with you on all fronts.
09-07-2010, 06:54 PM
HTS I am with you on getting rid of religion. However, we as a species are foolish enough to find another reason to hate and kill each other.
At the end of the day, this is not a Mosque nor is it on ground zero. End of thread IMO
09-07-2010, 07:16 PM
They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.-- Pastor Martin Niemoller
I didn't originally make the comparison of this speech and the targeting of a group, but it's something of a fair warning.
I want to make clear once again that I did not originally make the comparison of this quote/speech to the community center situation. If you want a link to the video I will send you the link via PM.
09-07-2010, 07:17 PM
09-07-2010, 09:37 PM
09-07-2010, 10:32 PM
I find interesting the way some talk about other religions with what seems to be piety and hypocrisy.By that I mean this, religion is a personal or institutionalized system grounded in belief.That would mean atheism itself is a religion and yet some of those who practice it would like to see other religions gone.Sounds a lot like the extremes in those other religions they seem to look down on.
Also they love to talk about the atrocities of those other religions but ignore those of thier own.Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot,Kim Jong-il,Tito,Castro to name a few. Atheist all and responsible for more deaths than all other religions this past century.
Hey, I say there is room for all.
09-07-2010, 11:02 PM
Anyhow, I get the gist of what you're saying but there really isn't anyone getting killed in the name of atheism. To go back past your time frame of the last century, Spanish conquistadors killed millions upon millions upon millions in the name of God... and resources. Point being, the natives were read some religious stuff in Spanish (i'll look it up, I have the book) and given the option to convert, then they were killed for not converting.
No Atheist group, in the name of Atheism, has ever mass murdered anywhere near to millions. Ole Columbus (or Colon) and his boys brought an entire race to extinction (The Natives of what is now Haiti.) Extinction.
09-08-2010, 12:28 AM
Do you really believe religion to be the cause of the atrocities you mentioned? More like religion was used to justify what was actually done to gain land, money,and power.Just as when communist atheists killed those who believed in God because they were a danger to the state, when what they really meant was they were a danger to the control they held on the people.
09-08-2010, 01:33 AM
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