Obama to support ground zero mosque

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    You mean like Oklahoma City?
    Forgive my ignorance But can you explain? I am sure there is a story to it, but I dont know it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtlasEnduring View Post
    Forgive my ignorance But can you explain? I am sure there is a story to it, but I dont know it.
    The Oklahoma City terrorist bombing was committed by Christians. There has been little to no major backlash against christians in general specifically because of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    The Oklahoma City terrorist bombing was committed by Christians. There has been little to no major backlash against christians in general specifically because of it.
    Ah, ok I think I can recollect some of that story now. Still its a bit harder to compare something like that, to the world trade centers. Something small time like that, to something as grand and multifaceted as 9/11? Dont forget the pentagon, and the one plane that never made it.

    EDIT: BTW, I posted your freaking sig onto my facebook. I laughed pretty hard

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    Did Tim Mcveigh and Terry Nichols do their atrocious act in the name of Jesus? I don't recall that part. Because they were Christians doesn't automatically make them religious extremist like Islamic terrorists. If I recall they had a beef with the govt and went off the deep end. But if they didn't do it as a part of their fanatical christianity its like apples to oranges. The history and motives behind it are completely different than the Islamic terrorists that attacked us on 9/11 as part of their RELIGIOUS JIHAD against America. So the Oklahoma city bombing as horrific as it was doesn't hold water as justification to allow this particular group of Muslims the have ties to terrorist organizations, ie the Muslim Brotherhood, to build a mosque as a symbol of their American conquest.

    What about the fact that aren't any residential areas any where close to ground zero any way and people would have to go across the city and pass other mosques to get there.
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    Stop calling it a mosque, because it's not a mosque. The building is double digits and only 2 floors are dedicated for "prayer." Stop saying it's being built on ground zero, because it's not, despite you're personal definition of ground zero (not to call anyone out.) It's 2-3 blocks in a diagonal direction from the corner of ground zero.

    As for the conspiracy theories, because that's just what they're becoming: Don't let fear mongering get the best of you. There are a lot of things being taken out of context, as usual.
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    What about the fact that aren't any residential areas any where close to ground zero any way and people would have to go across the city and pass other mosques to get there.
    There is a christian church and a catholic church much closer to ground zero than the proposed "mosque" is. Let's just change the definition of community center and call it a mosque.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Condition1 View Post
    There is a christian church and a catholic church much closer to ground zero than the proposed "mosque" is. Let's just change the definition of community center and call it a mosque.
    Community center...for Muslims. It has a mosque in it...

    What this really is, is people trying to resist the Muslim influence on our nation. For some odd reason, the government is "over" supporting it which is weird...

    And just as they technically have a right to build it, we technically have the right to say "no" and prevent it. Those who are here first, have the right to do so. Those whose beliefs aided in the building of America I believe have the right to say no in such things. America was not built, in any form, off of muslim faith. Muslim faith as far as I can see only results in poor countries full of angry people, proclaiming peace lol. The only thing I see that I liked is their law system. You cheat on someone, we kill you. You steal, we kill you. You kill, we kill you. But their shiiara law or whatever its called also goes.... Your Gay, we kill you. You dont agree, we kill you. You a woman and dont wear headgear, we kill you.

    And that is what the moderates of their faith follow and do. Death because of that law system happens daily, and those are the crimes. Hell even here in the states they carry it out. You know why those teen muslim girls still wear headgear? Not out of faith, but because they will STILL be killed here in America for it. It happens.

    You can say freedom of religion, but I also say...There is a freedom to resist something we dont like. Tolerance does not mean we have to accept them, it means we tolerate a certain "level" but we limit a point where we no longer tolerate, and then we have to retaliate or lose our identity.

    Its drawing close to that retaliation time. About 90% of people I meet daily, if we come to talking about muslims, they hate them. Even if they know nice ones, they hate muslims as a whole. Its really not going to go well. What does the muslim community stand to gain by building it? Does that outweigh the price they will pay? Or is that what they want?

    You cannot "cut off" terrorist funding for it as of now, no way you can its too late. If that is a facet of it that is. So what is a great strategy to hit America a second time?

    Well now that you have so many muslims here, build something in such a way it will become a target for extremists of another faith that America is recognized for. Then when it gets attacked and destroyed, you now have an excuse to get all the muslims in an uproar, and get a real jihad going.

    Damn is there not one person here who understands military stratagems and political subterfuge? This building/mosque/community center has essentially been denied by the American people, yet thanks to people higher up it will likely get forced through. Then when what is gona happen, happens....it gives them excuses for violence...A way to rally the peaceful ones into a more conflict oriented mindset, and so on. Muslims are blind in faith, and can be driven into doing things. Like any one of any faith, the majority of them are going to be more sheepish and can be slightly manipulated.
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    [QUOTE=Harry Manback;2562274]So lets say someone is acting under their rights, but doing so to spite us in a horrible way, it's ok? Come on. There's got to be a line drawn somewhere. The constitution that was written hundreds of years ago did not envision the type of chaos that goes on these days. Everyone talks about change. Well change is going to have to apply to our "rights" as well. It's gotten out of hand. All this PC garbage has to stop as well. It's bad enough I'm a white man in America these days. But it all ties in to this situation. So many of us feel one way but speak another. Very hypocritical. And all of this because of "religion"? Essentially it boils down to either having human rights or God rights. Pick one.[/Q

    So, lets see exactly whats wrong with what you said...
    1)The constitution was written hundreds of years ago and did not envision the type of chaos that goes on these days.
    "The founders understood that in framing the constitution they were trying to limit the power of government by taking human nature from the equation. The constitution has been attacked as archaic and obsolete for a myriad of reasons. These attacks illustrate a basic misunderstanding of the constitutions purpose"
    The constitution may not have envisioned everything that could possibly happen, but it did leave room for something we like to call "Ammendments" Thank GOD for the constitution, without it human nature is to hate whatever is different and become ignorant and classify everyone in a certain group as having the same characteristics. Maybe we should put them all in concentration camps? I'm sure you would be happy with that.
    2)Change is going to have to apply to our rights as well.
    Really,now? Personally, I like my rights. You're welcome to give up yours if you like. Or, did you mean that all muslims should lose their rights? I'M ALL FOR TERRORIST HAVING NO RIGHTS AND THEY SHOULD BE DEALT WITH ACCORDING TO THE LAW. To single out a single religion is at the very least ignorant. Every religion has had terrorist at some point.
    3) All this PC garbage has to stop
    I actually agree with you on something. You should be allowed to say just about whatever you want. However, that has nothing to do with letting people of a certain religion practice their reigion without having to feel peseccuted. I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons the pilgrims came over was to escape that very thing.
    4) It's hard enough I'm a white man in America these days
    Seriously guy? Whens the last time you're application got pushed to the back because they saw the name Javier Gonzalez or whatever name and decided to give him the interview first.I'm sure you have some really white sounding name and 9 times out of 10 youre gonna get the interview first. Hard being a white man in America.....thats funny. I could go so far into this.
    5) Human rights or God rights
    As a human you have the right to worship ny God you choose.

    I could keep going but I had a long day training so that I can go overseas and protect the constitution that allows you those rights that you feel need to be changed.You know the ones that allow you to have an oppinion and actually say what you think in an open forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You are missing the fact that for white conservative males, the best we can ask for is less goverment involvement. And yet here you are asking for more government involvement, hoping for legislation of morality. Hoping they will pass a law to avoid someone acting in a spiteful way.
    Well stated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Condition1 View Post
    I had to look a little more into this. The "mosque" is being built 3-5 blocks over a building in ruins that has been for sale at a very low price. The sight isn't even visible from ground zero due to buildings being in the way. It's, by definition, not a mosque (where people go only for prayer and worship, whatnot.) It's something of a culinary school with a basketball court and 2 floors for muslim worship.

    All of this fear mongering is turning this country into a Nazi state.
    Agreed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtlasEnduring View Post
    Ah, ok I think I can recollect some of that story now. Still its a bit harder to compare something like that, to the world trade centers. Something small time like that, to something as grand and multifaceted as 9/11? Dont forget the pentagon, and the one plane that never made it.

    EDIT: BTW, I posted your freaking sig onto my facebook. I laughed pretty hard

    "Blood, Sweat, and Tears doesn't mean crying while you struggle to put your tampon in." ~dsade
    While you cannot compare the two separate acts, you can compare the intent behind those acts. And that is what the previous poster is alluding to. There are churches built in and around the area where the Oklahoma City bombing took place. McVeigh was a christian and sought to make mention of that prior to his execution. The point is, while not agreeing with a Mosque being built close to ground zero, they are within their rights to do so. Additionally, it is more of a community rec center, that just happens to house a Mosque, similar to a YMCA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    While you cannot compare the two separate acts, you can compare the intent behind those acts. And that is what the previous poster is alluding to. There are churches built in and around the area where the Oklahoma City bombing took place. McVeigh was a christian and sought to make mention of that prior to his execution. The point is, while not agreeing with a Mosque being built close to ground zero, they are within their rights to do so. Additionally, it is more of a community rec center, that just happens to house a Mosque, similar to a YMCA.
    McVeigh....dude he was upset about the Waco incident, from what I have gathered after looking into it...

    If anything if you read up on him, he was created by the United States military. A child of true PTSD, in my opinion from what I have seen. He was purely in it for an anti-government reason, and used the Waco incident as an excuse to take action. He wrote an essay I was going over about what the U.S. was doing in war.

    Even satan believes in God, doesnt make him a Christian....

    As for the mosque, the points been made...regardless of what you and I believe, the outcome wont be changed by our beliefs if they build it. That is my point, they really will have no reason to cry about it being blown up if they build it when half of America would enjoy that.

    Its like when someone chooses to drink and drive and they die...yeah they have that freedom of choice, but I wont cry because of their death...I will morn for those whom they may have injured as a side effect though.

    All I am saying is if you have dedicated extremists who already have the stance they will blow it, probably setting back supplies or God knows what, then why will every one call it a "tragedy" when it could have been 100% avoided...

    Unless like I stated, it is a military intent of muslim radicals to purposely make themselves appear as victems giving them a right to retaliate in their minds, and in conjunction rallying the more peaceful muslims into a more conflict oriented mindset.

    So McVeigh-the PTSD product of the United States dirty laundry in a political war and targeting government workers, vs muslim extremists wanting to be martyrs and inflict as much harm on anything American as they can(aka infidels, government workers or citizens its all the same), regardless of their standings politically. One was an upset mentally deranged citizen, and one was a group of religious soldiers doing it for a false god....Not the same at all.

    EDIT: let me bring up a fact proven by history. Christians and muslims cannot co-exist in the same place. Over there, they kill Christians all the time. And no, not the extremists, your average muslim community. Yet Christian nations dont kill muslims all the time. Weird huh...But its bad blood, and its slowly breeding hate here in America. Christians dealing with muslims and vice versa, they do not agree at all. Even the nice ones of each hate the others. You are putting gasoline beside gasoline and setting a fire between them. A nation is either going to be Christian, or muslim. It cannot house both, and should it try....well War WILL come eventually. But instead of some revolution or something, its going to be a religious war.

    Pick your poison, man will fight and kill each other. Many "try" to blame religion....but even without it they would kill. Heck religion at least teachers some of them mercy, which is what creates more conservative sides of faiths and saves lives. Where as if it was war without religion, it would just be pure hatred and anger with no reason to feel guilt for it or to show mercy.

    Yeah my beliefs are Christian, I have my reasons for my beliefs. And I also have my reasons to distrust the muslim community.

    And to be clear I am not saying I'm 100% right or your 100% right. No, instead I am saying look at the facts, look at the manuscript laid before us. Read a chapter ahead in the book, and for once in our lives prevent something instead of watching it come and complain about why it happened instead of preventing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtlasEnduring View Post
    McVeigh....dude he was upset about the Waco incident, from what I have gathered after looking into it...

    If anything if you read up on him, he was created by the United States military. A child of true PTSD, in my opinion from what I have seen. He was purely in it for an anti-government reason, and used the Waco incident as an excuse to take action. He wrote an essay I was going over about what the U.S. was doing in war.

    Even satan believes in God, doesnt make him a Christian....

    As for the mosque, the points been made...regardless of what you and I believe, the outcome wont be changed by our beliefs if they build it. That is my point, they really will have no reason to cry about it being blown up if they build it when half of America would enjoy that.

    Its like when someone chooses to drink and drive and they die...yeah they have that freedom of choice, but I wont cry because of their death...I will morn for those whom they may have injured as a side effect though.

    All I am saying is if you have dedicated extremists who already have the stance they will blow it, probably setting back supplies or God knows what, then why will every one call it a "tragedy" when it could have been 100% avoided...

    Unless like I stated, it is a military intent of muslim radicals to purposely make themselves appear as victems giving them a right to retaliate in their minds, and in conjunction rallying the more peaceful muslims into a more conflict oriented mindset.

    So McVeigh-the PTSD product of the United States dirty laundry in a political war and targeting government workers, vs muslim extremists wanting to be martyrs and inflict as much harm on anything American as they can(aka infidels, government workers or citizens its all the same), regardless of their standings politically. One was an upset mentally deranged citizen, and one was a group of religious soldiers doing it for a false god....Not the same at all.

    EDIT: let me bring up a fact proven by history. Christians and muslims cannot co-exist in the same place. Over there, they kill Christians all the time. And no, not the extremists, your average muslim community. Yet Christian nations dont kill muslims all the time. Weird huh...But its bad blood, and its slowly breeding hate here in America. Christians dealing with muslims and vice versa, they do not agree at all. Even the nice ones of each hate the others. You are putting gasoline beside gasoline and setting a fire between them. A nation is either going to be Christian, or muslim. It cannot house both, and should it try....well War WILL come eventually. But instead of some revolution or something, its going to be a religious war.

    Pick your poison, man will fight and kill each other. Many "try" to blame religion....but even without it they would kill. Heck religion at least teachers some of them mercy, which is what creates more conservative sides of faiths and saves lives. Where as if it was war without religion, it would just be pure hatred and anger with no reason to feel guilt for it or to show mercy.

    Yeah my beliefs are Christian, I have my reasons for my beliefs. And I also have my reasons to distrust the muslim community.

    And to be clear I am not saying I'm 100% right or your 100% right. No, instead I am saying look at the facts, look at the manuscript laid before us. Read a chapter ahead in the book, and for once in our lives prevent something instead of watching it come and complain about why it happened instead of preventing it.
    Good post. I'm glad someone acknowledges my point about McVeigh. No where have I heard of him doing that in the name of Jesus or anything close to it. It was a completely different set of circumstances. People that don't understand the true Muslim faith don't understand their mandate from Allah they must convert the infidels or kill them. The other reason the blow themselves up is too ensure entry into Heaven. The live by a system of good works vs. bad works. At the end of their life, they have to have done more goods than bad to get into Heaven. BUT, if one isn't sure if they have done enough good, they have an exit strategy, which ironically is bad works. Die as a martyr in the jihad. It overcomes everything bad in their life. So if one is in a mosque with radical immam teaching, like the Fort Hood assassin was when he attended the northern VA mosque, they are encouraged to become a martyr. Funny how that Immam fled to pakistan after being linked to numerous terrorist attacks.

    So you can't have it both ways. You have to understand Islam is about world domination. Immam Rauf has said in the past how to take over America is slowly, one piece at a time. Kind of like the communist plan to take over America.
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    My general point is that there are many individuals/groups out there, who in the name of religion have committed atrocities.

    Individuals claiming Christianity have taken the lives of abortion doctor(s). While I don't in my heart of hearts support a Mosque being built close to ground zero (I'm from NY), I support their rights to be able to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    While you cannot compare the two separate acts, you can compare the intent behind those acts. And that is what the previous poster is alluding to. There are churches built in and around the area where the Oklahoma City bombing took place. McVeigh was a christian and sought to make mention of that prior to his execution. The point is, while not agreeing with a Mosque being built close to ground zero, they are within their rights to do so. Additionally, it is more of a community rec center, that just happens to house a Mosque, similar to a YMCA.
    You posted here that McVeigh did it in the name of Religion. You said the intent was the same which is not the case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    You posted here that McVeigh did it in the name of Religion. You said the intent was the same which is not the case.
    Reports circulated that he had a loose affiliation with Elohim City, a Christian Identity commune in Oklahoma. In an interview given to Time Magazine in 2001, McVeigh also mentioned literature that centered deeply around the Christian Identity movement, the Turner Diaries.

    Extreme religious ideology factors largely into these types of acts, including the killing of abortion doctors, such as Dr. George Tiller, whose killer implicitly stated that he was carrying out god's work.
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    Everything I've read on Elohim City and McVeighs association point to a shared anti-government sentiment. They were retaliating for the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents as opposed to a religious attack.

    Now the guy that killed Dr Tiller is a nut job and as a Christian denounce his "doing Gods work". That is clearly someone with a perverted form of Christianity just as in Elohim City.
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    Ugh, I am so sick of hearing of this debate.

    Want my opinion? Get rid of religion in general, it is the cause of all this hate.

    Don't agree with me? Then don't think you are any better than a Muslim, or have any more right to a church/mosque than they do. If you believe in freedom of religion for your religion, you damn well believe in it for any other religion.

    Build the mosque, end of story, get back to issues that matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Ugh, I am so sick of hearing of this debate.

    Want my opinion? Get rid of religion in general, it is the cause of all this hate.

    Don't agree with me? Then don't think you are any better than a Muslim, or have any more right to a church/mosque than they do. If you believe in freedom of religion for your religion, you damn well believe in it for any other religion.

    Build the mosque, end of story, get back to issues that matter.
    Amen to that. Organized religion has done more to create divisions throughout the world, than to unite under us under any common thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    Everything I've read on Elohim City and McVeighs association point to a shared anti-government sentiment. They were retaliating for the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents as opposed to a religious attack.

    Now the guy that killed Dr Tiller is a nut job and as a Christian denounce his "doing Gods work". That is clearly someone with a perverted form of Christianity just as in Elohim City.
    http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...Quran.Burning/ <----Let's attempt to rationalize this one?

    Or as I like to call it, the conservative strategy of..."Let's piss them off and see if that works"...brilliant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...Quran.Burning/ <----Let's attempt to rationalize this one?

    Or as I like to call it, the conservative strategy of..."Let's piss them off and see if that works"...brilliant.
    I think that guy is out of line also as do a lot of conservatives I've talked to. It does raise the question again of how its ok for the Christianity haters to piss on a crucifix or make a virgin mary out of elephant dung. But its not ok for a journalist to make a political cartoon about the prophet or for comedy central to censor any derogatory depictions of Mohammed but its ok for them to make derrogatory reference to Jesus Christ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    I think that guy is out of line also as do a lot of conservatives I've talked to. It does raise the question again of how its ok for the Christianity haters to piss on a crucifix or make a virgin mary out of elephant dung. But its not ok for a journalist to make a political cartoon about the prophet or for comedy central to censor any derogatory depictions of Mohammed but its ok for them to make derrogatory reference to Jesus Christ.
    Anyone can make comments about anyone. Muhammad is no more protected than Jesus is, from a law standard. I do not condone a comic who depicts the prophet. That **** got out of hand and is annoying. As you said, if I can draw Jesus in a non religious manner, muhammad is in line for the same treatment.

    Burning a Quran is blatant hate though, just as burning a bible would be. Both of these statements coming from a very proud athiest. I am anti-religion, but I have no reason to actively spread hate about a religion or target it. My family is religious, I do not in any form condemn them. When religions start treating each other the same way, life would be easier.

    Edit:
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    The prophet was featured in south park many seasons ago, previous to the debate that happened last season.
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    Burning the US flag was determined to be protected by freedom of speech, no reason burning a Quaran is any different. Just like no laws against them building a civic center more than 2 blocks away from ground zero.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Burning the US flag was determined to be protected by freedom of speech, no reason burning a Quaran is any different. Just like no laws against them building a civic center more than 2 blocks away from ground zero.
    I wasn't claiming it was against the law.

    Burn an american flag in front of a patriot, you will probably get your ass kicked.
    Burn a gay pride flag in front of a homosexual, get your ass kicked.
    Burn a bible in front of a christian, expect retaliation.

    Why is this seen as something that wouldnt, by nature, lead to retaliation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    I wasn't claiming it was against the law.

    Burn an american flag in front of a patriot, you will probably get your ass kicked.
    Burn a gay pride flag in front of a homosexual, get your ass kicked.
    Burn a bible in front of a christian, expect retaliation.

    Why is this seen as something that wouldnt, by nature, lead to retaliation?
    Initiate violence for any of these retarded reasons: go to prison and deal with your conscience for being a violent, irrational dirtbag.

    How about people actually act on the morality they claim to have? I don't recall anywhere in the bible where it says it's cool to kick anyone's ass over ink on paper anything...nor words, nor much of anything else.

    They are doing what they think is right/within their rights. Should the threat of violence by ignorants make them cower?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    I wasn't claiming it was against the law.

    Burn an american flag in front of a patriot, you will probably get your ass kicked.
    Burn a gay pride flag in front of a homosexual, get your ass kicked.
    Burn a bible in front of a christian, expect retaliation.

    Why is this seen as something that wouldnt, by nature, lead to retaliation?
    Come on, you'd let a gay guy kick your ass?

    Why can't burning the Quaran be viewed as retaliation for them burning US flags in the street and carrying presidential effigies around?

    Just because someone is doing something out of retaliation doesn't make them morally superior to the person who did what offends them.
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    God I always make myself promise to stay out of political threads, and again here I end up...

    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Initiate violence for any of these retarded reasons: go to prison and deal with your conscience for being a violent, irrational dirtbag.

    How about people actually act on the morality they claim to have? I don't recall anywhere in the bible where it says it's cool to kick anyone's ass over ink on paper anything...nor words, nor much of anything else.

    They are doing what they think is right/within their rights. Should the threat of violence by ignorants make them cower?
    Oh I completely agree. I don't believe in violence, I believe violence just leads to more violence. I am just stating the obvious in what would happen.

    Anyone who thinks actively burning the Quran, or any book from any culture or religion is the "right" thing to do is inadequately equipped mentally. I'd love to hear how it is the right thing to do. P.S. Extremist thought 9/11 was the right thing to do. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. Belief you are doing the right thing doesnt equate to it being the correct thing to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Come on, you'd let a gay guy kick your ass?

    Why can't burning the Quaran be viewed as retaliation for them burning US flags in the street and carrying presidential effigies around?

    Just because someone is doing something out of retaliation doesn't make them morally superior to the person who did what offends them.
    Joking aside, One of the biggest guys at my gym is, at least i believe, gay. Not only could he kick my ass, he could probably crush me. But I know you meant that as a joke.

    It can be viewed as retaliation. Doesnt make it right. Retaliation leads to more retaliation which leads to more retaliation. The problem is this: When you are attacking the Quran, you are attacking the religion. One that 95+% of its followers have no association a terrorist group. I know many here are not city people, which can lead to more shielded views of other races/religions (I dont mean this offensively - my views on both are different living in a mixed neighborhood than when I was in suburbia). But I am sure you have all met a follower of Islam at some point. Did they try to kill you? Would they if they had the chance? In 99% of cases the answers are no.

    This would be no different than if I started burning down churches because I saw on TV a pedo got arrested. I mean Catholics are pedophiles right? Even their leaders, all pedos correct? No, that is not true. Not at all. Now you see how associating the thoughts of a few to the masses does not work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    It can be viewed as retaliation. Doesnt make it right. Retaliation leads to more retaliation which leads to more retaliation. The problem is this: When you are attacking the Quran, you are attacking the religion.
    No, its no different than burning a US flag, literally. It can also be a symbol of the governments of most of the middle east, as they use Sharia law to govern by. Anyone here support stoning of the woman in Iran because of adultery? Sharia law there.

    As with racism, people who are looking to be offended will find a way to be offended regardless of what you do unless you totally kowtow to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Come on, you'd let a gay guy kick your ass?

    Why can't burning the Quaran be viewed as retaliation for them burning US flags in the street and carrying presidential effigies around?

    Just because someone is doing something out of retaliation doesn't make them morally superior to the person who did what offends them.
    It's simple because we as Americans would like to believe that we uphold ourselves to a higher standard. What they do is of no consequence. How we carry ourselves in spite of it, is the litmus test. Hate should not be met with more hate.

    Personally I'm not the least bit religious, so I believe all religions are fair play. Comedy is comedy and that's fine, however, if you get into areas that hint at extremism, you're asking for trouble. There is nothing right about what this so called "christian" deems appropriate in the form of burning copies of the Qur'an, irrespective of what they do on their side (flag burning), we should always look to uphold ourselves to a higher standard of decency.

    This idiot has every right in the world to burn the Qur'an, however, it doesn't preclude him from being a nimrod. I'm going to venture a guess and say that this "preacher" in all likelihood received a very limited education.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    God I always make myself promise to stay out of political threads, and again here I end up...



    Oh I completely agree. I don't believe in violence, I believe violence just leads to more violence. I am just stating the obvious in what would happen.

    Anyone who thinks actively burning the Quran, or any book from any culture or religion is the "right" thing to do is inadequately equipped mentally. I'd love to hear how it is the right thing to do. P.S. Extremist thought 9/11 was the right thing to do. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. Belief you are doing the right thing doesnt equate to it being the correct thing to do.




    Joking aside, One of the biggest guys at my gym is, at least i believe, gay. Not only could he kick my ass, he could probably crush me. But I know you meant that as a joke.

    It can be viewed as retaliation. Doesnt make it right. Retaliation leads to more retaliation which leads to more retaliation. The problem is this: When you are attacking the Quran, you are attacking the religion. One that 95+% of its followers have no association a terrorist group. I know many here are not city people, which can lead to more shielded views of other races/religions (I dont mean this offensively - my views on both are different living in a mixed neighborhood than when I was in suburbia). But I am sure you have all met a follower of Islam at some point. Did they try to kill you? Would they if they had the chance? In 99% of cases the answers are no.

    This would be no different than if I started burning down churches because I saw on TV a pedo got arrested. I mean Catholics are pedophiles right? Even their leaders, all pedos correct? No, that is not true. Not at all. Now you see how associating the thoughts of a few to the masses does not work.
    Perfectly stated and last I checked Hakeem Olajuwon(muslim) never tried to kill David Robinson(christian), except in the post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    No, its no different than burning a US flag, literally. It can also be a symbol of the governments of most of the middle east, as they use Sharia law to govern by. Anyone here support stoning of the woman in Iran because of adultery? Sharia law there.

    As with racism, people who are looking to be offended will find a way to be offended regardless of what you do unless you totally kowtow to them.
    Come on man. This one should be obvious to you. Do I support the stoning of a woman in Iran due to adultery? No. But it is no different than a country being upset with our justice system. Many countries are against Capital Punishment, they can disagree with our countries use of it just as I can disagree with them stoning. It is not our countries job to police that.

    Should I start burning bibles in the street because the Catholic Church still thinks women using contraception are whores? Or because they preach only abstinence? Lets ask Bristol how that is working out...

    I also am not looking to be offended. As I mentioned, if I had my way, Religion would disappear, overnight, and I would be a happy man. I have no need to protect Islam or any other religion. I personally say to hell with them all.


    ..and SouthPaw, I am with you on all fronts.
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    HTS I am with you on getting rid of religion. However, we as a species are foolish enough to find another reason to hate and kill each other.

    At the end of the day, this is not a Mosque nor is it on ground zero. End of thread IMO
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    They came first for the Communists,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and by that time no one was left to speak up.-- Pastor Martin Niemoller

    I didn't originally make the comparison of this speech and the targeting of a group, but it's something of a fair warning.

    I want to make clear once again that I did not originally make the comparison of this quote/speech to the community center situation. If you want a link to the video I will send you the link via PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    HTS I am with you on getting rid of religion. However, we as a species are foolish enough to find another reason to hate and kill each other.

    At the end of the day, this is not a Mosque nor is it on ground zero. End of thread IMO
    This.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Should I start burning bibles in the street because the Catholic Church still thinks women using contraception are whores? Or because they preach only abstinence?
    If you want to and feel strongly about it, then yes you should. That how things do actually change, by individuals taking actions, and building consensus. That also is how our founding fathers envisioned it, people being involved, and using free speech for something more than **** jokes.
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    I find interesting the way some talk about other religions with what seems to be piety and hypocrisy.By that I mean this, religion is a personal or institutionalized system grounded in belief.That would mean atheism itself is a religion and yet some of those who practice it would like to see other religions gone.Sounds a lot like the extremes in those other religions they seem to look down on.
    Also they love to talk about the atrocities of those other religions but ignore those of thier own.Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot,Kim Jong-il,Tito,Castro to name a few. Atheist all and responsible for more deaths than all other religions this past century.
    Hey, I say there is room for all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 416 View Post
    I find interesting the way some talk about other religions with what seems to be piety and hypocrisy.By that I mean this, religion is a personal or institutionalized system grounded in belief.That would mean atheism itself is a religion and yet some of those who practice it would like to see other religions gone.Sounds a lot like the extremes in those other religions they seem to look down on.
    Also they love to talk about the atrocities of those other religions but ignore those of thier own.Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot,Kim Jong-il,Tito,Castro to name a few. Atheist all and responsible for more deaths than all other religions this century.
    Hey, I say ther is room for all.
    Atheism is non-belief in the supernatural. This is not to insult religions and it's going based on Richard Dawkin's book "The God Delusion." He also calls out agnostics saying that either you do or don't believe. This I don't agree with, personally. The size, expansion, mysteries of the universe and how things work... I mean, no energy in the universe is wasted, it's got to go somewhere, to me that's not "death," it's more like re-distribution.

    Anyhow, I get the gist of what you're saying but there really isn't anyone getting killed in the name of atheism. To go back past your time frame of the last century, Spanish conquistadors killed millions upon millions upon millions in the name of God... and resources. Point being, the natives were read some religious stuff in Spanish (i'll look it up, I have the book) and given the option to convert, then they were killed for not converting.

    No Atheist group, in the name of Atheism, has ever mass murdered anywhere near to millions. Ole Columbus (or Colon) and his boys brought an entire race to extinction (The Natives of what is now Haiti.) Extinction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Condition1 View Post
    Atheism is non-belief in the supernatural. This is not to insult religions and it's going based on Richard Dawkin's book "The God Delusion." He also calls out agnostics saying that either you do or don't believe. This I don't agree with, personally. The size, expansion, mysteries of the universe and how things work... I mean, no energy in the universe is wasted, it's got to go somewhere, to me that's not "death," it's more like re-distribution.

    Anyhow, I get the gist of what you're saying but there really isn't anyone getting killed in the name of atheism. To go back past your time frame of the last century, Spanish conquistadors killed millions upon millions upon millions in the name of God... and resources. Point being, the natives were read some religious stuff in Spanish (i'll look it up, I have the book) and given the option to convert, then they were killed for not converting.

    No Atheist group, in the name of Atheism, has ever mass murdered anywhere near to millions. Ole Columbus (or Colon) and his boys brought an entire race to extinction (The Natives of what is now Haiti.) Extinction.
    I did not deny atrocities have happened in the name of religion.But atheist do try to deny atheism's part in many atrocities.You say millions and millions and millions, but the people i mentioned were responsible for well over 100 million and some say 100s of millions in the name of communism of which one of the most important foundational beliefs is atheism.

    Do you really believe religion to be the cause of the atrocities you mentioned? More like religion was used to justify what was actually done to gain land, money,and power.Just as when communist atheists killed those who believed in God because they were a danger to the state, when what they really meant was they were a danger to the control they held on the people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    If you want to and feel strongly about it, then yes you should. That how things do actually change, by individuals taking actions, and building consensus. That also is how our founding fathers envisioned it, people being involved, and using free speech for something more than **** jokes.
    My answer was to leave the church. This is protest in a civilized manner, and I feel if more members would open their eyes to the organization they follow, they would as well, and change would come. Instead blind faith is promoted. It was when I did this that athiesm in general made sense to me.
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