Obama to support ground zero mosque

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    A war sounds like a great idea...now, if you will just go ahead and select some parents, siblings, and other loved ones that you are willing to feed into the culling machinery for extermination and betterment of the species...
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    A war sounds like a great idea...now, if you will just go ahead and select some parents, siblings, and other loved ones that you are willing to feed into the culling machinery for extermination and betterment of the species...
    Essentially that is the brutal honesty of what is coming. Consider it like unto a man who will cut off his own arm if it is necessary to survive. Society will do the same, or else as a whole die.

    IE something that happened on the news a couple years ago. A man went hiking by himself in some ravines, a minor rockslide caught him and a bolder(weighing something like 1200 lbs) pinned and crushed his arm. The poor bastard after waiting for a time(day or two???) cut his arm off with a pocket knife....sheering and stabbing the tendons at the join where the elbow is and ripping his arm free...

    Not pretty, hurts like hell, but it was the only way he survived...That time is sadly coming on a wide scale.


    War and death are the curse of mankind. With it we die, and yet without it we die.
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    Here is an interesting read on why there are so many radical muslims. Dying as a martyr guarantees entry into Heaven according to Islam. In Islam, on judgement day, you have to have done more good works than bad works to get in. The only surefire way a person will know they get in and the only way that supersedes a life of GOOd vs Bad is to die a martyr. If you aren't a soldier in an actual battle, it is hard to be killed in holy war. So the only way around that is to kill yourself and other innocent people in the name of Allah. That is the fundamental teaching in islam. If people ignore this little detail, they will never understand why muslims are radical and want to kill non muslims. It hs nothing to do with tolerance because Islam is completely intolerant. This is at the heart of radical islam.
    Are there Muslims that don't subscfibew tp this theology? Sure. But people have tp understand the root cause. Appeasing Muslims that want to die and kill you with them doesn't work.
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    in reviewing it more, the guy's ties to hamas are strong enough that i'm reversing my earlier opinion, and no longer believe he should be allowed to build this. I don't have a problem with a mosque being built there, but not at the hands of this guy. If this were still a Bush presidency, I'd almost bet this guy's bank accounts would be seized as part of funding terrorist Hamas activities.
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    It's not a question of religious freedom, it's more of a moral issue. They are exploiting the American rights, laughing at us behind our backs. There are certain unspoken and unwritten rules to life in general, some lines you just don't cross. Unfortunately for the "good" muslim people, this is only going to create more hatred and controversy toward them because of many peoples ignorant and blanketed views.
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    Simple point that needs to be taken into account. Christians and other Americans cant offend muslims through any action, so why can a muslim offend a Christian as well as the entire American population by one and it be ok?
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    Here is an interesting read on why there are so many radical muslims. Dying as a martyr guarantees entry into Heaven according to Islam. In Islam, on judgement day, you have to have done more good works than bad works to get in. The only surefire way a person will know they get in and the only way that supersedes a life of GOOd vs Bad is to die a martyr. If you aren't a soldier in an actual battle, it is hard to be killed in holy war. So the only way around that is to kill yourself and other innocent people in the name of Allah. That is the fundamental teaching in islam. If people ignore this little detail, they will never understand why muslims are radical and want to kill non muslims. It hs nothing to do with tolerance because Islam is completely intolerant. This is at the heart of radical islam.
    Are there Muslims that don't subscfibew tp this theology? Sure. But people have tp understand the root cause. Appeasing Muslims that want to die and kill you with them doesn't work.
    There also seem to be a lot of Christians that don't subscribe to the whole killing witches, killing disobedient children, etc. orders contained in the bible. Christianity, if followed to the letter, is just as intolerant.

    They are called extremists for a reason.
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    How many Christians hijacked 2 planes and flew them into the World Trade Center. Its comparing apples to oranges. Christians aren't on a mission to destroy any and all non Christians. How many Catholic terrorists groups are on the terror watch list? Any muslim that is a fundamental worshiper and follower is taught to kill non believers. Christianity does not teach you must kill others to ensure entry into heaven. That is why muslims become suicide bombers. You can't gloss over that one fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by omni View Post
    I think the majority of Americans would disagree with you.
    ya most people i know disagree....it is a touchy subject
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    http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/polit...100353429.html


    ^^^^^^VOTE NOW!!!! 44% furious against this project!^^^^^^


    http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-cont...enter_Site.htm


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10989002


    A Marist poll of voters in New York City found 53% opposed the mosque. Only 34% thought it would facilitate cultural understanding while half thought it was offensive.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10991021


    Majority of NYC Voters Oppose Mosque Near WTC Site… Half Call It “Offensive”

    53% oppose constructing the mosque two blocks from Ground Zero while 34% favor its development. 13% are unsure.

    Republicans are expressing the most dissatisfaction with the new structure. 74% oppose building a cultural center which includes a place of worship while just 16% of the city’s GOP support the move. Half of Democrats and 52% of non-enrolled voters think the mosque should not be erected while 38% and 35%, respectively, believe it should.

    68% of Republicans believe the mosque is offensive to those who died in the terrorist attacks while 20% believe it will foster understanding about Islam. 47% of Democrats think the center insults the victims and their families compared with 37% of those who see the mosque as a move toward tolerance. The same proportions of non-enrolled voters — 47% and 37%, respectively — share these opinions.

    http://maristpoll.marist.edu/810-blo...in-five-years/
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    As an intellectual, understanding, and smart human being with the capability of fore thought in predicting future events, and predicting the reactions of the masses... why would anyone agree to build a mosque near ground zero?

    That is one the most moronic ideas anyone could agree upon.

    You MUST know it will be controversial, you MUST know it will be hated, and YOU must know the possibility of danger that lurks... not from terrorists, but danger at the hands of angry Americans (or angry humans not to generalize to Americans). Some humans have such low moral values that they will attack the mosque itself with rocks, bricks, graffiti, and HATE. You MUST know this will happen. So then, why would you build this mosque?

    Are the builders and people agreeing to do this living in some fantasy land with world peace? I don't think anyone is that stupid. This is the real world. You know you are asking for trouble building something like this.

    You know there are many Americans who will disagree, but will never act on their disagreement.

    But..

    You know there are a few Americans who will disagree, and ACT on their anger.

    Whoever is building this must be a retard not to predict the trouble brewing from this. They are welcoming the trouble... I'm telling you.
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    Theres a big difference between what people are allowed to do in America and what might be considered socially appropriate.

    Conservatives love to talk about freedom until it comes to people they disagree with (Muslims, homosexuals, science, etc.). This is an issue based on religious tolerance, a fundamental issue when it comes to the American dialog.

    Is it distasteful? Yes, at least in the current social climate (maybe too soon). Do they have a right to do it? **** yes, if you disagree then you I dont know whart the ****. This is AMERICA. Worship who you want. If you have the money then build where you want. Capitalism at work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nice jorts View Post
    Theres a big difference between what people are allowed to do in America and what might be considered socially appropriate.

    Conservatives love to talk about freedom until it comes to people they disagree with (Muslims, homosexuals, science, etc.). This is an issue based on religious tolerance, a fundamental issue when it comes to the American dialog.

    Is it distasteful? Yes, at least in the current social climate (maybe too soon). Do they have a right to do it? **** yes, if you disagree then you I dont know whart the ****. This is AMERICA. Worship who you want. If you have the money then build where you want. Capitalism at work.
    An Liberals love to talk about equality until it comes to people of the Christian faith. If this was anything about religous tolerance and equality, the Greek Orthodox church would be built as well, but they got shot down, and the Mosque got fast tracked through without the same guidelines as the Orthodox church.

    And the Church was there prior to 9/11. To say this is anything about religous tolerance is ignorant to the debate at hand.
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    this is why i dont believe in anything...i just live my life and try to live happy. Almost every religion has a very violent past and present. people praise something and think they are good people and then start killing which isnt what a "religous" person should do. try being a good person instead. makes no sense at all. its a vicious cycle and nothing gets resolved ever. i respect everyones beliefs otherwise. im not educated enough on this topic to the level that you all are but i felt that i wanted to say something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Manback View Post
    It's not a question of religious freedom, it's more of a moral issue. They are exploiting the American rights, laughing at us behind our backs. There are certain unspoken and unwritten rules to life in general, some lines you just don't cross. Unfortunately for the "good" muslim people, this is only going to create more hatred and controversy toward them because of many peoples ignorant and blanketed views.
    this is exactly what is happening in my eyes. they know this is the place they can get away with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    An Liberals love to talk about equality until it comes to people of the Christian faith. If this was anything about religous tolerance and equality, the Greek Orthodox church would be built as well, but they got shot down, and the Mosque got fast tracked through without the same guidelines as the Orthodox church.

    And the Church was there prior to 9/11. To say this is anything about religous tolerance is ignorant to the debate at hand.
    The issue with the greek orthodox church was that they wanted taxpayer supported funds in the form of money and free land (i believe in excess of $40-$60 dollars) whereas the mosque is being built complete on purchased land using private funds.

    Apples and oranges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    The issue with the greek orthodox church was that they wanted taxpayer supported funds in the form of money and free land (i believe in excess of $40-$60 dollars) whereas the mosque is being built complete on purchased land using private funds.

    Apples and oranges.
    Incorrect, it was a zoning issue that it would be taller than allowed, but the mosque is not following this same guideline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Incorrect, it was a zoning issue that it would be taller than allowed, but the mosque is not following this same guideline.
    Not what this says at all:

    Arey was referring to the address, about 100 yards away from the original site, where the government earlier proposed relocating the church. The Port Authority and the church announced a deal in July 2008 under which the Port Authority would grant land and up to $20 million to help rebuild the church -- in addition, the authority was willing to pay up to $40 million to construct a bomb-proof platform underneath.

    Within a year, the deal fell through and talks ended -- apparently for good, according to the Port Authority.

    The archdiocese and Port Authority now offer sharply conflicting accounts of where things went wrong. The Port Authority has claimed the church was making additional demands -- like wanting the $20 million up front and wanting to review plans for the surrounding area. They say the church can still proceed on its own if it wishes.


    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...o-church-dead/
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    How many Christians hijacked 2 planes and flew them into the World Trade Center. Its comparing apples to oranges. Christians aren't on a mission to destroy any and all non Christians. How many Catholic terrorists groups are on the terror watch list? Any muslim that is a fundamental worshiper and follower is taught to kill non believers. Christianity does not teach you must kill others to ensure entry into heaven. That is why muslims become suicide bombers. You can't gloss over that one fact.
    We didn't have those tools available when we did it. We drowned, burned and tortured people in all sorts of ways during The Crusades. its really not apples to oranges, its apples to apples....we just got it out of our system early. Granted its in the past but we were just as bad at one point. I'm currently getting ready to go on deployment and I don't hate muslims. Most muslims are tolerant and pacifist, some even want our help. That being said, I don't mind a mosque being built but with the stipulations that the funder has no ties to terrorist groups and that the church can be built as well. Muslim extremist are a minority of the religion, unfortunately the media doesn't focus on the muslims that are on our side. There are muslims all over the world...should we hate all of them? Also, for those of you that think we should stoop to their level, you're pretty much asking for more American soldiers to die. During Desert Storm thousands of Husseins soldiers layed down arms without firing a single shot at us because they knew they would be treated humanely. That's. That's that many less of the enemy that the U.S. had to worry about during fire fights. There's a reason for everything we do and why only 1% of us do it. I'm not sympathetic to muslim extremist and I hate terrorist, but we can't classify all muslims into 1 group. We have a constitution for a reason and it applies to everyone.
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    as much as some may not like this they have every right to build it
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1slowcivic View Post
    We have a constitution for a reason and it applies to everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    as much as some may not like this they have every right to build it
    So lets say someone is acting under their rights, but doing so to spite us in a horrible way, it's ok? Come on. There's got to be a line drawn somewhere. The constitution that was written hundreds of years ago did not envision the type of chaos that goes on these days. Everyone talks about change. Well change is going to have to apply to our "rights" as well. It's gotten out of hand. All this PC garbage has to stop as well. It's bad enough I'm a white man in America these days. But it all ties in to this situation. So many of us feel one way but speak another. Very hypocritical. And all of this because of "religion"? Essentially it boils down to either having human rights or God rights. Pick one.
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    You can feel free to dislike someone because they act out of spite, but that doesn't mean our government should treat them any differently unless they are committing a crime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You can feel free to dislike someone because they act out of spite, but that doesn't mean our government should treat them any differently unless they are committing a crime.
    Our government does more for "them" than they do for "us". Us being white males, them being everybody else. I support the advancement of white males, not out of hate for others, in fact I understand that we weren't given the choice to be born so therefore we're all equal in that sense, but just like the every other racial group supporting their cause, I'm supporting mine. You can be as liberal as you want. Your beliefs are yours, mine are mine. But I'm not just going to run with it because it's what the government deems right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Manback View Post
    Our government does more for "them" than they do for "us". Us being white males, them being everybody else. I support the advancement of white males, not out of hate for others, in fact I understand that we weren't given the choice to be born so therefore we're all equal in that sense, but just like the every other racial group supporting their cause, I'm supporting mine. You can be as liberal as you want. Your beliefs are yours, mine are mine. But I'm not just going to run with it because it's what the government deems right.
    You are missing the fact that for white conservative males, the best we can ask for is less goverment involvement. And yet here you are asking for more government involvement, hoping for legislation of morality. Hoping they will pass a law to avoid someone acting in a spiteful way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You are missing the fact that for white conservative males, the best we can ask for is less goverment involvement. And yet here you are asking for more government involvement, hoping for legislation of morality. Hoping they will pass a law to avoid someone acting in a spiteful way.
    You make a good point. I don't need the government, but as we know, we can't avoid government involvement. So as the saying goes "if you can't beat them, join them". The government makes these laws and adaptations because of other racial/minority groups complaining. So now it's our turn to complain. We all have our moral beliefs, which is why the minorities stand up. They feel they are being persecuted. Ok, I can understand that. But when, as a white man, I feel persecuted, I can't complain? This isn't just about the mosque, this goes much deeper. Everyone says the constitution this and the constitution that. But what they are missing is that now we are the ones are becoming unfairly treated. All because everyone wants to remain PC and fix everything that happened in the past. Well you know what, I wasn't there for much of the wrong-doings. I'm sure as hell not going to feel sorry for actions that I did not commit. Yes things have been unfair and people treated wrong in the past. But it's done with, time to move on. You can only play the race card so much. If your homeland is so great, then by all means, go home.
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    But more government involvement is what is causing the unfair atmosphere. We need to continue to minimize governed involvement, get rid of equal opportunity laws, because as the constitution says "All men are created equal." Nowhere does it state the the government should try to equalize adults. what too many people fail to realize is that more government = less rights.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    But more government involvement is what is causing the unfair atmosphere. We need to continue to minimize governed involvement, get rid of equal opportunity laws, because as the constitution says "All men are created equal." Nowhere does it state the the government should try to equalize adults. what too many people fail to realize is that more government = less rights.
    [The bold is an excellent point]

    Agreed. But now the question is, how?

    Unfortunately, I just don't see it happening. A) because people are too ignorant to realize what's going on and B) The government has far too much power in many aspects to let this society become a less goverend society.

    The only way real change can and will happen is once again thru a revolutionary war. And like I mentioned, I just don't see that happening.
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    Hopefully, we'll see some actual change this november's election, and hopefully as well it won't go like the way the last set of republican majority did, forgetting what they got elected for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Manback View Post
    [The bold is an excellent point]

    Agreed. But now the question is, how?

    Unfortunately, I just don't see it happening. A) because people are too ignorant to realize what's going on and B) The government has far too much power in many aspects to let this society become a less goverend society.

    The only way real change can and will happen is once again thru a revolutionary war. And like I mentioned, I just don't see that happening.
    100% correct. People will not revolt, in the majority people are just too stupid and content
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    Why on ground zero though? I'd be offended if it were a christian church ensuing that we are "a christian nation." There's a line between exercising your rights and deliberately being arrogant.

    However, if "we" care so much for the location now, why didn't "we" use the location for something more meaningful by now?
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    Obama gives your tax dollars to rebuild Muslim mosques around the world
    While millions of Americans struggle to keep their homes and jobs, President Barack Obama can't give your tax dollars away fast enough.
    August 26, 2010


    Dear Bill,


    According to the Associated Press, the Obama administration will give away nearly $6 million of American tax dollars to restore 63 historic and cultural sites, including Islamic mosques and minarets, in 55 nations. See the State Department document here.

    This is an outrage! Our country is broke. And can you imagine what the ACLU and others on the secular left would say if these monies had been spent to repair Christian churches? They would be screaming “separation of church and state!” Funding Islam on foreign soil with American taxpayer money? Not a whimper.

    The latest taxpayer givaway includes $76,000 for a 16th century mosque in China, $67,000 for a mosque in Pakistan, $77,000 to restore minarets in Nigeria and Mauritania, and $50,000 for an Islamic Monument in India.

    Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton says the U.S. program to restore Islamic and other cultural sites in other countries is taxpayer money well spent.
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    I had to look a little more into this. The "mosque" is being built 3-5 blocks over a building in ruins that has been for sale at a very low price. The sight isn't even visible from ground zero due to buildings being in the way. It's, by definition, not a mosque (where people go only for prayer and worship, whatnot.) It's something of a culinary school with a basketball court and 2 floors for muslim worship.

    All of this fear mongering is turning this country into a Nazi state.
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    There HAS to be a reason that America is better every other country. If the freedom is what makes it better then we need to follow it to show the rest of the world no matter how we dislike it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Condition1 View Post
    I had to look a little more into this. The "mosque" is being built 3-5 blocks over a building in ruins that has been for sale at a very low price. The sight isn't even visible from ground zero due to buildings being in the way. It's, by definition, not a mosque (where people go only for prayer and worship, whatnot.) It's something of a culinary school with a basketball court and 2 floors for muslim worship.

    All of this fear mongering is turning this country into a Nazi state.
    A mosque is a HUGE ass place and it's very boring. They walk in, pray, read the Quarn(some do some don't), walk out. That's it! This building doesn't look like a mosque but there calling it that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Manback View Post
    So lets say someone is acting under their rights, but doing so to spite us in a horrible way, it's ok? Come on. There's got to be a line drawn somewhere. The constitution that was written hundreds of years ago did not envision the type of chaos that goes on these days. Everyone talks about change. Well change is going to have to apply to our "rights" as well. It's gotten out of hand. All this PC garbage has to stop as well. It's bad enough I'm a white man in America these days. But it all ties in to this situation. So many of us feel one way but speak another. Very hypocritical. And all of this because of "religion"? Essentially it boils down to either having human rights or God rights. Pick one.
    if they are doing it out of spite at all ??? no one knows.you gotta believe we have spies within their group watching them.we ran back ground checks on them and everything else.they came up clean and have been given the green light to build.if we in the usa stopped them from building this place we open the flood gates to other acts of hate.the usa is one of the few places where anyone can actually make it and hopefully it stays this way.
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    What about the fact that Immam Rauf refuses to denounce terrorist organizations including Hamas. He says one thing about peace here, but goes to the middle east and gives arab interviews that contradict his peaceful statements. No one has been able to refute the fact that for centuries islam has built mosques at sites where they have conquered and turned the states into muslim states. And the fact that the building they bought was damaged by airplane parts from the ATTACK that muslims inflicted on the US. So if it was damaged during their attack, I would consider that part of ground zero.
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    I think the problem with America today is too many right. We have no identity anymore because we have no focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You can feel free to dislike someone because they act out of spite, but that doesn't mean our government should treat them any differently unless they are committing a crime.
    Define crime? Crime is what we are taught it is by the current people in power. I would find any form of betrayal a crime, but for the most part its a general practice in America.

    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    as much as some may not like this they have every right to build it
    And rednecks have the right to do what they are going to do to it lol. Not necessarily a law-based right(but our laws are now useless and flawed beyond repair, best taken as advice and your true laws left to your moral understanding and desire to stay out from behind bars). But a universal right transcending land laws. By that I mean People A said: If you build that, we gona blow it up. People B said : We dont care, your a buncha panzies, we shall insult you anyways People A then: blow it up... Its the right of common sense.

    Common sense to me means, when an action is going to happen that you wont like, avoid it, no? America protects stupid people, hell we even elect them as presidents, but at some point its gona stop. And it wont be pretty.


    It will be interesting when it all goes down. Because I wonder if it will spark a jihad thingy, or a racial conflict, or a civil war, or nothing at all and we call it tragedy and all go out for ice cream....

    Here is another big question....cant just 3 Christian or Catholic or Jewish "extremists" blow it all to hell, then the rest of the Christian/Catholic/Jewish community suffer absolutely nothing from it? I mean thats how the muslims roll, only seems fair and there are a helluvalot more than 3 who are probably willing or planning on it already. I run into alot of rednecks. Budweiser isnt explosive is it? Because if it is, were all screwed they have the mother load!

    Wait we should call the crusaders from the days of the crusades extremists as well I think.(Then gain consider that the soldiers were a forced tithe from any country under the papacy's control, hell a chunk of them probably were not even fighting for the catholic belief). People look at it as a united offensive, when really the pull of soldiers from each nation left it weaker while they were already fighting wars against each other over land/ old disputes/ etc. I doubt the kings wanted a portion of their troops to go riding off thousands of miles to a war that would not benefit them...


    Im not saying blow it up, but man every one with a Nascar hat will be on their way lol. In essence, the American people have voted "no" on the subject and plan to enforce their vote.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtlasEnduring View Post
    Here is another big question....cant just 3 Christian or Catholic or Jewish "extremists" blow it all to hell, then the rest of the Christian/Catholic/Jewish community suffer absolutely nothing from it?
    You mean like Oklahoma City?
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