MeltUp: The Beginning Of A US Currency Crisis And Hyperinflation

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by NattyT View Post
    Well easy its kind of hard to keep the so called relegious dribble out of the conversation when it has been one of the major issues concearning almost every war that has ever taken place. The qar that we currently fight is about relegion that we spend 50 billion on annualy. The papacy controls the world system and always has the pope rather you wont to belive it or not is in control and all world,leaders have bowed down to him and kissed his ring including islamic leaders. This is about the governing of the people and thoae that concider them selfs fit to decide what the common person should be able to do. You can say what you wont about how we got here but the truth of the matter is that you dont know, its only what you have been told.

    The conversations that have been held in secret places are done for that very reason.

    To say that relgion dosent belong in this topic is plane ludacris when on the back of the doller it says IN GOD WE TRUST.

    So there is no way to seperate the two.

    Every war once again that has been fought has been over spirtual belifs , hell WWI began because Hitler thought he was doing gods will and that war is still being paid for just like every one up untill now.

    The impact of relegion and whats truth and whats a lie has more to do with our current situation more the the actuall money itself. Most laws that are passed are are debated on the basis of what ethical and moral, so it realy blows me away when people try to sperate laws that were first established thrue the word of god, also goverment that was first set in place thrue the word of god and how a kingdom was ran in the bible.

    This country was (saposedly)founded on biblical principles and people are crying about good america used to be but look how far away from the foundation we have gotten.

    So for you to say that there is no place for talk of relgion in this matter makes no since what so ever.
    I don't see where a currency crisis or hyperinflation has a single thing to do with anything you mention in this post either. I'll agree that most wars are fought over religion, however this current thread is about economics, not war.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox View Post
    This is part of the equation but realistically I don't think that it can be changed because it is inherent to human nature. The reason why it wasn't an issue 20 or 30 years ago was because there were appropriate checks and balances in place to prevent people from over spending. Those have been progressively relaxed over the years as corporations (and yes some private individuals) have tried to increase their market size in search of more profits
    (Note that I said MORE profit - they were already profitable).
    Its a piece of human nature to want more yes, but its not a piece of human nature to feel that somebody somehow owes it to you. Its not because of corporations wanting to boost their profits, its due to people's basic lack of understand of simple math, their desire for luxury goods as status symbols, as well as shortsightedness. The Nike "Just Do It" campaign was where this really kicked into high gear, as it was the start of that expectation of getting and being able to do whatever you want.
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  3. Easy I did not say it was about war, but I wasrefering to spending that comes from it. The U.S. has been in Iraq and afghan for how long?

    Your telling me that that has nothing to do with the current economic crisis, well I cant tell, the money wasted could have put people back to work.

    Then earlier in the post you made a comment about people being on unemployment benefits for 2.5yrs, but if there are no jobs being created what are they to do, the system is set up to make you depend on it. Any one with since knows that you have to create jobs and there not doing and are not going to.

    The goverment and big corps did this, they sent millions of jobs over seas but aerica didnt fully understand we did what we thought we should be able to do, trust those that we elected. Instead of understanding the beast which is the world system a system that is a broken system from the beginning.

    The laws were establishd by GOD and set forth by him, politics began in the bible and so did every law that we live by. So how can you seperate the two, every desicion or bill that will and has been passed is based on what is good or bad, moral or immoral, just or unjust and so on and so on.

    Easy im not here to debate with you, I would bethe fool to debate and argue what I belive is truth. At the wnd of the day though you cant denie that what is going on was avoidable and people saw this coming a long time ago, so if there were not a outside force involved in this why would we purposle destroy our country and the world as ww know it, because we are at the point of no return and life as we know it will never be the same. With in 18 monthsmevery thing will come crashing down.

    One ? Easy, you dont belive that these things were in prophesy or that we were warned about them?

  4. This was prophesized insofar as it follows economic theory pertaining to paper money inflation. This is not unprecedented, this follows the same path as the inflation of the Continental, the French Assignat, the hyperinflation of Germany in the 1920's, or even the Roman Coin clipping inflation of ancient times.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by NattyT View Post
    One ? Easy, you dont belive that these things were in prophesy or that we were warned about them?
    No, only lunatics and people with weak minds believe that.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    No, only lunatics and people with weak minds believe that.
    I prophesize a reaction to this statement.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by NattyT View Post
    Easy I did not say it was about war, but I wasrefering to spending that comes from it. The U.S. has been in Iraq and afghan for how long?

    Your telling me that that has nothing to do with the current economic crisis, well I cant tell, the money wasted could have put people back to work.
    Obama's budget deficit the first year was more than what was spent on the war combined to date......

    No, it didn't have any significant effect on the economy, if anything it was a positive note as almost all of the equipment and materials used in the war was manufactured in the US. Our shortsighted labor unions have priced most of our production and assembly lines out of competition with imported goods, so this is one area where a war keeps manufacturing alive here. Its not like the money spent on the war got given to Iraqis and Afghanis, it was used to buy Humvee tires and repairs of equipment and ammunition.

    In any case, its not the government's "job" to put people to work - its private businesses who put people to work. The less government spends, the less it taxes people and businesses, the more money there is in a growth potential sector for new jobs to be created. Again, simple math, no flying spaghetti monster necessary to explain it.

  8. WHAAAA???? Ja meen ders no flying spaghetti monster ?????? YOU LIE !!!!! hehee

  9. [QUOTE=NattyT;2536381] The qar that we currently fight is about relegion that we spend 50 billion on annualy. The papacy controls the world system and always has the pope rather you wont to belive it or not is in control and all world,leaders have bowed down to him and kissed his ring including islamic leaders.

    The conversations that have been held in secret places are done for that very reason..[/QUOTE]

    I gotta say dude what in the world have you been reading ???
    So let me get this straight.....the Roman Catholic Church controls the world ???
    You prolly read all about the Masons, The Illuminati, The Rosicrucians etc etc dont you.

    The American ppl did this. Yes WE did this to ourselfs by living in a dream world in which you could live WAY beyond your meens becuase of credit that you never should have had.
    Not saying its all of americans fualts but
    When Citizens of our country pay MUCH more attention to what is going on with some bubblegum popstar princess or with who is being drafted to what team INSTEAD of what is going on in Washington and WHY we choose to elect someone into office WE ARE SCREWED.

    We do not need some new world order antichrist conspiracy theorie to blame.
  10. lutherblsstt
    lutherblsstt's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Seriously, can you keep the religous drivel out of economic discussions?
    I second that motion!



    Its one thing the bring it up during a discussion that is based on morality, but quite another on something that is based on numbers. For every someone who comes up and says "heres a solution" there is someone who says how that won't work. There doesn't need to be any vast conspiracy to explain this, its simple math.

    Carter started the CRA (Community Reinvestment Act) to "help those who were underpriviledged" buy homes - ie force banks to write loans they wouldn't normally write because the groups were high risk. Clinton expanded it greatly. Bush removed some of the regulations on ratios at banks. We experienced a huge boom in lending, a huge boom in housing, followed by an equal crash. This was something that affected worldwide markets as lots of them invested in the US markets as well, and most other countries have their currency with a base of US dollars. Just as we (up until 1928) had our currency backed by gold, other countries have their currency backed by US dollars.

    Apart from this is the constant ridiculous "progressive liberal" movement that tries to help people by making them comfortable with the education and employment level they have - removing any urge (and often value) to attempting to do better, and removing the urgency to create savings by guarnteeing a basic level of living even if you have no money. This is a worldwide phenomena, with I think the most notable example recently being Germany and Greece. Germany was forced to greatly increase immigration to create an artifically larger workforce as their birth rate was declining and the number of people on social services growing. Greece, i'm sure you saw the riots over their bankruptcy.

    None of this requires any outside agency to explain - people's expectation of what qualifies as "normal middle class living" is HUGELY different than just 20 or 30 years ago as far as amount of income spent on luxury items. A family now thinks its normal to have flat panels in the living room and every bedroom, 3 laptops in the house and cellphones for everyone 10 or up, forgetting about all the other luxury expenses like starbucks or video games. So all this extra luxury has been financed by this credit and there was never any "real" money moving around, so there is no sinister outsider who took it all.
    Good points made and no scriptures needed,two thumbs up!

  11. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Obama's budget deficit the first year was more than what was spent on the war combined to date......

    No, it didn't have any significant effect on the economy, if anything it was a positive note as almost all of the equipment and materials used in the war was manufactured in the US. Our shortsighted labor unions have priced most of our production and assembly lines out of competition with imported goods, so this is one area where a war keeps manufacturing alive here. Its not like the money spent on the war got given to Iraqis and Afghanis, it was used to buy Humvee tires and repairs of equipment and ammunition.

    In any case, its not the government's "job" to put people to work - its private businesses who put people to work. The less government spends, the less it taxes people and businesses, the more money there is in a growth potential sector for new jobs to be created. Again, simple math, no flying spaghetti monster necessary to explain it.
    Lol @ flying spaghetti monster...

    As far as the labour unions go. I agree that they have not helped matters but I do think that their culpability has been exaggerated. Even without unions, production costs would have still been lower in 3rd world countries.

    Investors and upper management have been able to extract increasingly larger portions of the 'economic pie' at the expense of the working class. The latter, in order to maintain their standard of living, have had to progressively reduce the amount saved to the point where they are now borrowing - much to the pleasure of the finance industry. Of course this was not sustainable but bankers were making so much money is was impossible for them to quit.

    You are correct that the role of government should not be to directly create jobs. However it is the government's job to ensure that there is sufficient regulation in industries in order to create a sustainable economy. In that sense it has failed miserably. The actions on the part of the banking and investment community are, in my opinion, criminal. To top it all off, the government bailed them out (at guess who's expense!) This begs the question: has the government any spine left or is it completely in the pockets of the leaders of big industry?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox View Post
    Investors and upper management have been able to extract increasingly larger portions of the 'economic pie' at the expense of the working class. The latter, in order to maintain their standard of living, have had to progressively reduce the amount saved to the point where they are now borrowing - much to the pleasure of the finance industry. Of course this was not sustainable but bankers were making so much money is was impossible for them to quit.
    To me, the problem is that the working class isn't trying to maintain their standard of living, they are continuously trying to increase it. Ipods, cellphones, $100 sneakers, etc. And at the same time, average skill + so far as I can tell intelligence level of the working class has gone down rather than up. So investors (often that same working class via 401ks btw) and upper management seem to get larger pieces of the pie at expense to working class to you, but to me they are only keeping up with the working class's ever increasing standard of living proportionately.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    To me, the problem is that the working class isn't trying to maintain their standard of living, they are continuously trying to increase it. Ipods, cellphones, $100 sneakers, etc.
    I do agree that the working class has been living above their means and everyone seems to agree that they have had been able to do so through increasingly accessible credit. We're just arguing about the chicken and the egg.

    In the past the finance industry would not give the lower classes that amount of credit; they were classified as too risky. More recently the finance industry not only started to offer increasing levels of credit to them but also implied that they could afford it (ie. subprime mortgages). Consumers were only making decisions based on the info provided by the experts...

    Now this begs the question: should those consumers have known better? Personally, I don't think so. Industries have become more and more specialized over the years. Getting a law degree in order to tell if the lawyer that one hires is doing a good job defeats the purpose of having to hire one in the first place. This would be the same for getting a B.Comm, an accounting designation, or a CFA in order to tell if your banker or financial planner is behaving ethically. These professions are often regulated and supposedly have internal codes of ethics in order to convince clients that they will not behave 'opportunistically.' With increasing drive for more profits and the lack of regulation of the derivatives market, ethics fell by the way side.

    Most people are like sheep, they will do what you tell them, including going to the slaughterhouse...

    I was going to recommend a good, easy enough read, book on the subject
    but I can't for the life of me remember the title. I will try to track it down.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox View Post
    I do agree that the working class has been living above their means and everyone seems to agree that they have had been able to do so through increasingly accessible credit. We're just arguing about the chicken and the egg.

    In the past the finance industry would not give the lower classes that amount of credit; they were classified as too risky. More recently the finance industry not only started to offer increasing levels of credit to them but also implied that they could afford it (ie. subprime mortgages). Consumers were only making decisions based on the info provided by the experts...

    Now this begs the question: should those consumers have known better? Personally, I don't think so. Industries have become more and more specialized over the years. Getting a law degree in order to tell if the lawyer that one hires is doing a good job defeats the purpose of having to hire one in the first place. This would be the same for getting a B.Comm, an accounting designation, or a CFA in order to tell if your banker or financial planner is behaving ethically. These professions are often regulated and supposedly have internal codes of ethics in order to convince clients that they will not behave 'opportunistically.' With increasing drive for more profits and the lack of regulation of the derivatives market, ethics fell by the way side.

    Most people are like sheep, they will do what you tell them, including going to the slaughterhouse...

    I was going to recommend a good, easy enough read, book on the subject
    but I can't for the life of me remember the title. I will try to track it down.

    I disagree there The subprime mortgages weren't pushed by the finance companies as much as it was forced down their throats by the Community Investment Act. And people should understand the truth in lending form, or shouldn't sign their name to it. Its a contract, it shows the repayment amount. The people who took a variable rate with "i'll sell it or refinance it before it goes variable" deserve losing their homes. At that same point in time, I got a 5% fixed mortgage (2005). It doesn't take a math degree to understand that buying a house that is 7x your annual income won't work in the long run.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    The people who took a variable rate with "i'll sell it or refinance it before it goes variable" deserve losing their homes.
    Not the forgiving type are you

    Ok lemme play devil's advocate here. So by extension, all those people that lost their jobs, homes (non-subprime), 401k's, etc due the collapse of the economy triggered by the subprime market also deserved it?

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox View Post
    Not the forgiving type are you

    Ok lemme play devil's advocate here. So by extension, all those people that lost their jobs, homes (non-subprime), 401k's, etc due the collapse of the economy triggered by the subprime market also deserved it?
    More or less, as the 401k values if you had been contributing any amount of time were grossly overinflated (as people had been seeing 10-14% gains per year) with a well diversified portfolio losing less as well, and were unprepared savings-wise to deal with the loss of a job and keep their home. Also, if you look at the unemployment figures its only high for the unskilled/uneducated workers (this is 2009 numbers)



    so its largely people who have no real applicable skills for a 21st century non-third world economy. Not the government nor industry's fault that people refuse to spend the time and energy to educate themselves, but somehow have time to follow baseball, football, and basketball. People choose to invest their time in leisure instead of education/skill building, thats nobody's fault but their own.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Seriously, can you keep the religous drivel out of economic discussions? Its one thing the bring it up during a discussion that is based on morality, but quite another on something that is based on numbers. For every someone who comes up and says "heres a solution" there is someone who says how that won't work. There doesn't need to be any vast conspiracy to explain this, its simple math.

    Carter started the CRA (Community Reinvestment Act) to "help those who were underpriviledged" buy homes - ie force banks to write loans they wouldn't normally write because the groups were high risk. Clinton expanded it greatly. Bush removed some of the regulations on ratios at banks. We experienced a huge boom in lending, a huge boom in housing, followed by an equal crash. This was something that affected worldwide markets as lots of them invested in the US markets as well, and most other countries have their currency with a base of US dollars. Just as we (up until 1928) had our currency backed by gold, other countries have their currency backed by US dollars.

    Apart from this is the constant ridiculous "progressive liberal" movement that tries to help people by making them comfortable with the education and employment level they have - removing any urge (and often value) to attempting to do better, and removing the urgency to create savings by guarnteeing a basic level of living even if you have no money. This is a worldwide phenomena, with I think the most notable example recently being Germany and Greece. Germany was forced to greatly increase immigration to create an artifically larger workforce as their birth rate was declining and the number of people on social services growing. Greece, i'm sure you saw the riots over their bankruptcy.

    None of this requires any outside agency to explain - people's expectation of what qualifies as "normal middle class living" is HUGELY different than just 20 or 30 years ago as far as amount of income spent on luxury items. A family now thinks its normal to have flat panels in the living room and every bedroom, 3 laptops in the house and cellphones for everyone 10 or up, forgetting about all the other luxury expenses like starbucks or video games. So all this extra luxury has been financed by this credit and there was never any "real" money moving around, so there is no sinister outsider who took it all.

    ^^^ Perfect. PERFECT!!

  18. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I disagree there The subprime mortgages weren't pushed by the finance companies as much as it was forced down their throats by the Community Investment Act. And people should understand the truth in lending form, or shouldn't sign their name to it. Its a contract, it shows the repayment amount. The people who took a variable rate with "i'll sell it or refinance it before it goes variable" deserve losing their homes. At that same point in time, I got a 5% fixed mortgage (2005). It doesn't take a math degree to understand that buying a house that is 7x your annual income won't work in the long run.
    Don't forget also that a government sponsored entity(Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae) with an implicit assumption of a government guarantee(Later make explicit), stood by to purchase any mortgage made in the secondary market. Banks on their own, would have been more leery of lending if they didn't have a guaranteed way to offload the risk from those loans to the taxpayer basically.

    Also worth noting, it was these government entities that created the mortgage backed securities and derivatives that are so maligned in the crisis. The government also gave special privileges to these securities by letting banks buy back the securities and use those as collateral, thus giving even more incentive for shaky loans.

    Or it was all just greed, appearing for the first time, and confined to the housing industry.
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