Health DEFORM what it costs YOU!

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    Health DEFORM what it costs YOU!


    No tax increases huh? Welcome to the New Socialist America...

    Starting in 2011 (next year folks) your W 2 tax form sent by your employer will be increased to show the value of what ever health insurance you are given by the company. It does not matter if that's a private
    concern or governmental body of some sort. If you're retired ? So what; your gross will go up by the amount of insurance you get.

    The dollar value (cost of what the company pays for your insurance) will be considered income and added to your gross pay. You will be taxed on the total You will be required to pay taxes on a large sum of money that you have never seen. Take your tax form you just finished and see what $15,000 or $20,000 additional gross does to your tax debt. That's what you'll pay next year.

    For many it also puts you into a new higher bracket so it's even worse. This is how the government is going to buy insurance for 15 % that don't have insurance and it's only part of the tax increases.

    Not believing this I researched the summaries and here's what I'm reading:

    On page 25 of 29 : TITLE IX REVENUE PROVISIONS- SUBTITLE A: REVENUE OFFSET

    PROVISIONS-(sec 9001 , as modified by sec. 10901)

    Sec.9002. "requires employers to include in the W-2 form of each employee
    the aggregate cost of applicable employer sponsored group health coverage "that is excludable from the employees gross income."

    Joan Pryde is the senior tax editor for the Kiplinger New Letters. Go to Kiplingers and read about 13 tax changes that could affect you. Number 3 is What I just told you about.

    Why am I arming you with tis information in hopes that you will spread the word to the idealistic people who don't realize what this program is going to cause on our economy. People have the right to know the truth because an election is coming in November

    On average the company portion of your health benefits are $400-$600 a month, so going with a median of $500 per month that is $6000 a year the average to income ranges especially in two income homes is going to fall in the $34,000-%82,400, and 82,400-$171,850 those tax brackets are respectively 25% and 28%. What that means to you is, your taxes have been increased by $1500, and $1648 a year without a "tax increase" talk about creative. You live paycheck to paycheck, and now over $100 a month is missing? There went your budget. There goes the economy again too. Consumer spending will go down, creditors of non essential bills will not be paid, starting the exact same loop of credit based economical failure that we are supposedly coming out of now.

    Imagine being the single mom with a few kids, making 34,500 a year and barely making it, all the suddenly the government comes in grabs your purse and steals $125.00 a month from you to pay for people who didn't do what it takes to get a job and take care of there own self. Yet now you can't pay your bills and you don't qualify for any government aid. Fan-fricken-tastic!
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    (Health Insurance Agent Here)

    This is for Cadillac plans, which I don't know what companies you guys work for, but most do NOT have a cadillac plan. They want to impose a 40 percent tax on the portion of insurance premiums exceeding $8,500 a year for individuals and $23,000 a year for family plans. My dad has a Cadillac plan, and will be stuck with the tax, however, he is recieving insurance that has a $0 copay, a 0% co-insurance, and an extremely low yearly deductible, with a lifetime benefit that is fairly high. For example, I got prescription, brand new PRADA sunglasses for $0. This is a cadillac plan.

    Take your tax form you just finished and see what $15,000 or $20,000 additional gross does to your tax debt. That's what you'll pay next year.
    I know of very little people who receive that much in health benefit from thier employer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    This is for Cadillac plans, which I don't know what companies you guys work for, but most do NOT have a cadillac plan.
    Funny enough, most public service employees as well as most union members do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Funny enough, most public service employees as well as most union members do.
    At a cost of 8,500 individual and 23,000 family? That seems a bit drastic, and I am familiar with both parties having better plans, but not necessarily cadilac, by govt. definition. Also have had union positions.

    For the record I dont support this tax as a means to support health care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    At a cost of 8,500 individual and 23,000 family? That seems a bit drastic, and I am familiar with both parties having better plans, but not necessarily cadilac, by govt. definition. Also have had union positions.

    For the record I dont support this tax as a means to support health care.
    So you are saying that the typical person who is getting $600 a month in benefits is not going to be taxed on it?
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    *As far as we are informed in the industry as of now.

    One thing I will note with ^ is that the industry is spinning heads over this just as much as the politicians, so the exact details are unclear. But as far as I am informed, this will only effect an individual of 8,500 or more, which the 600$ a month would be 7200. So no, this would not effect them. I am pretty sure on this since from the begining the tax issues were targeting the highest class policies only.
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    We shall see. I hope you are correct.
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    If heretostudy is correct I'm in the clear. $13,000 family. But didnt union employees get a bye on this even if they have a cadillac plan?
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    Quote Originally Posted by wastedwhiteboy2 View Post
    If heretostudy is correct I'm in the clear. $13,000 family. But didnt union employees get a bye on this even if they have a cadillac plan?
    Yea as I am sure most people here will be. Cadillac plans are quite pricey, but very nice to have.
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    I pay out the wazoo for my plan to be almost cadillac. More like a Chevy with rims but whatever... LOL
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    **** it, i'll just drop health care and visit a free clinic...
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    Quote Originally Posted by wastedwhiteboy2 View Post
    If heretostudy is correct I'm in the clear. $13,000 family. But didnt union employees get a bye on this even if they have a cadillac plan?
    but its not about what you pay, its about what you and the employer pay together.
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    It's about people who don't have a job or have health insurance believing that having it means you can just run to the doctors any time you get a sniffle and you're taken care of. My girlfriend pays more for BC pills than an out of work mom of 3 living in the projects and she has health insurance.
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    I think our entire "medical" system needs fixed...

    Its all one big shark business. And I have a slight "survival of the fittest" attitude. But not in weakness, but in uselessness...such said people who wont work, etc. I have crap insurance, and pay when I need to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero V View Post
    I think our entire "medical" system needs fixed...
    Couldnt have said it better myself. Although i do believe insurance reform is needed, the entire system needa an overhaul, from differentiated pricing, to expensive prescriptions, to insurance, its all one big shark infested water and your forced into into it if your health is in need of help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Couldnt have said it better myself. Although i do believe insurance reform is needed, the entire system needa an overhaul, from differentiated pricing, to expensive prescriptions, to insurance, its all one big shark infested water and your forced into into it if your health is in need of help.
    Yes, and the health deform bill addressed none of that. Effectively it gave a bailout to the insurance companies (as the 10% of people in the US didn't have insurance before), while allowing them to make more profit than they currently do (up to 20% in "administrative" costs where most of the big groups currently have 6-8% admin costs) and no provisions to cap actual rates, just capping the difference between highest risk and lowest risk groups.

    Without addressing the cost of procedures, the unnecessary procedures run as malpractice lawsuit preventative measures and the huge cost of malpractice overall this bill accomplished pretty well the reverse of what the PR about it said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Yes, and the health deform bill addressed none of that. Effectively it gave a bailout to the insurance companies (as the 10% of people in the US didn't have insurance before), while allowing them to make more profit than they currently do (up to 20% in "administrative" costs where most of the big groups currently have 6-8% admin costs) and no provisions to cap actual rates, just capping the difference between highest risk and lowest risk groups.
    Where are you sourcing this from?

    With the bill as it is now, there will be alot of hell for the actual insurance companies, and it is far from considered a "bailout." The requirement to carry insurance was a failed attempt at making people get insurance, and I can give you a perfect example of why, and this is coming strait from talks with contacts working for the national carriers:

    Assume a man goes into an insurance agency for health insurance, and wants a cadillac plan. He would like a $0 deductible, 100% co-insurance coverage, the works... Unfortunately, he is quoted at 650$ a month, and tells the agent to **** off.

    Now if he took that plan, it would cost him 7,800$. Pretty damn expensive. So for now, he will take the tax penalty (which is in 700 range, but for sake of example and so I dont get called out understating it, we will say its 800). Which would be the equivalent of 66.67 a month, which even the low end plans most likely would not be that low.

    Now say something happens to him. He is waiting for an ambulance that his wife called for. It appears he has had a heart attack. As the ambulance is on its way, she calls and signs him up for that health insurance plan, with an immediate effective date and pays the company the $1200 a month, the increased price as determined by the underwriter.. He will now have his ambulance covered, his E.R. visit covered, any testing/medication covered, and a admittance into the hospital covered. Oh, and even if he spends the next 20 years in that hospital, there is no lifetime cap on the plan, so the family will happily pay the $1200 premium monthly, as thier hospital bill will be that or more a day.
    This example passes easily through the law and demonstrates the short comings of the health plan. This is hardly a bailout for them. They wouldn't be as angered by it if it was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Where are you sourcing this from?

    With the bill as it is now, there will be alot of hell for the actual insurance companies, and it is far from considered a "bailout." The requirement to carry insurance was a failed attempt at making people get insurance, and I can give you a perfect example of why, and this is coming strait from talks with contacts working for the national carriers:



    This example passes easily through the law and demonstrates the short comings of the health plan. This is hardly a bailout for them. They wouldn't be as angered by it if it was.
    it is a bailout for them. The fact that they whine about it doesn't change anything. They are complaining about losing control over what they do as a business. They don't want to have to just accept anyone, and they don't want to have to only charge the highest risk group no more than X% of the lowest risk group. They don't want to have to charge women the same as men because women's preventative and normal testing/care costs them significantly more money each year than men. They've structured their rates + tiers the way they wanted to and yet are being told they have to change it for emotional reasons, not sensible factual data based reasons.

    Average overhead among private U.S. insurers was 11.7 percent, compared with 1.3 percent for Canada’s single-payer system and 3.6 percent for Medicare. Streamlined to Canadian levels, enough administrative waste could be saved to provide compressive health insurance to all Americans
    http://www.pnhp.org/single_payer_res...h_spending.php

    But the health reform act allows up to 20% on administrative costs.... So you've given insurance companies 10% more of new accounts with them having no acquisition costs, and told them on average they could have an 8% higher profit. Combine this with them not being allowed to refuse to write a policy and what do you get? Significantly higher premiums for everyone.

    All the data above comes from factual statistical data, I can find the driblets for you one at a time.

    So please explain where there is hell for insurance companies? Sure they have to change the way their arcturial tables are set, and change their tiers and groupings, but they are getting new customers for nothing, and allowed to charge even more for insurance.
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    And FYI, single ridiculous made up arguments don't prove anything, and regardless of details you can't set up a new health insurance plan in the 10 minutes waiting for an ambulance
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    And FYI, single ridiculous made up arguments don't prove anything, and regardless of details you can't set up a new health insurance plan in the 10 minutes waiting for an ambulance
    This is coming strait from the companies themselves. I didn't make up this example. This is clearly not a bailout, and I won't ever agree to it being one. If this was a walk in the park for them there wouldn't be any opposition from them, plain an simple.

    With the exception of Blue Cross, who implemented a waiting period previous to an effective date one can apply for, and did this after the passing of health reform, all other carriers (and I am speaking of the IL market) still allow for an immediate effective date. With that date, you get a conditional receipt of insurance, which basically states, if underwriting goes longer then the begining of the effective date, anything that would have been covered will be upon approval of the policy. So in the previous example, even though the policy wouldnt be approved "in 10 minutes," as soon as the policy is requested, anything occuring after that will be covered, no matter if the account is still awaiting approval. Since there is no chance of the company giving an account a denial, then it WILL be covered.

    As I stated earlier, I work in health insurance, please don't argue with me how it works unless you do as well.
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    ...and your website is calling for a socialized system similar to Canada, since this is exactly what I want, then I assume we are not in disagreement?
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    Again, a single made up argument no matter who makes it up may have emotional impact, but that doesn't mean it has significant cost impact, or will be even a tiny minority of the cases that occur.

    For someone who works in health insurance, you apparently don't understand the way this bill affects health insurance companies as a business. I suppose if you are involved more in sales than accounting, that would make some sense at least. Similarly no surprise that our Secretary of Treasury had no idea how self employment taxes worked. Just working in an industry doesn't give you exclusive knowledge to how the accounting and business side of it work. Again, the insurance companies aren't resistive because it will cost them money, but because it will cost them a hassle of redoing systems internally, and reshuffling how they do the math on all of the different tiers. All this bill will do is raise the cost of insurance for everyone who isn't receiving the government rebates. Again, work with the accounting math - if there is space for the insurance companies to charge more than they do now why do they even care if someone applies for that insurance today? Whatever his costs are will still be passed along to everyone else paying for insurance, and the insurance company can still nearly double their profit margin. So again, where does any of this create hell for insurance companies other than being forced to change their internal calculations?

    Related, the reason why Geico can say "Allstate insured people who switched to Geico saved an average of $352 a year" and Allstate can say "Geico insured people who switched to Allstate saved an average of $416 a year" is because their risk tables are set up differently, and each has different tiers and risk groups. So neither are lying, but it may be that Geico's tables are slightly preferable for single people driving older cars, and Allstate's are for married people who own a house. Would either of them be happy with being told by the government how they had to organize and separate those tiers? No, because it then becomes harder and harder for them to differentiate themselves from the competition.
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    Im not even continuing with this argument. Any reform that affects an industry will effect obviously cost them money for administrative changes. Do I agree with the rise in administrative costs allocated? No, but do I not agree with the state of health care currently, so the point is moot. You can keep thinking this was a big bailout, ill keep thinking in the reality of the situation. Unfortunately we wont see the direct results of what happens until 2014, so arguing how it will affect the industry is moot as well. But hey next time I am sitting to dinner with Humana or Blue Cross and they are shooting my ears off about how this socialist bastard pig will destroy thier industry, or that they are explaining that profit analysis means they are going to have to pull out of certain markets (this does happen - Unicare has pulled out of the IL market for profitability issues), ill remind them that this is a big bailout and we will pop a bottle of Don P together.
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    Insurance used to be a system of protection where in a group of men would pull together a pot of money that would be used in case of an unforeseen event happening to one of them....it was NOT a business.

    Then some bastards seen the easy way to take advantage of this, and to play on peoples fears...

    I seen a alot of people filing petitions lately about this healthcare plan.

    Honestly I dont know. I have mixed feelings, but overall I want to know why hospitals justify the cost of the crap they pull, and why medical corporations are allowed to string along peoples lives for money. I dont give a crap how much effort you put into it, no one deserves to drive a lambo at the cost of thousands of lives who could not afford a drug that would have saved them.

    Why the hell does it cost 10 grand to have a baby? Honestly its wrong. I am planning on doing a midwife birthing when I have a wife. Worked for 4,000 years, I am sure God will let it work now.

    The medical field pisses me off to no extent. Greedy bastards, half of which nowadays are foreign and damn near retarded and incompetent. Go back to habgabastan, you cant even understand me describing my damn problems then you send me to another doctor to figure out whats wrong.

    The only benefit is cute nurses which I enjoyed last Wednesday when I was in the hospital. Thank God I had insurance, because this time they didnt tell me to F*** off and throw me out like last time when I didnt have insurance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    **** it, i'll just drop health care and visit a free clinic...
    I thought one of the provisions of the bill was to require people who make X amount of money to pay for insurance, and if they don't, they get fined at tax time?

    I am 22, and in the Army National Guard. I spend a ton of time on active duty, so much so that I have not purchased health insurance ever, and don't plan on it until I am 30+

    Will this effect the military? I am sure the military has what constitutes a cadillac plan, as I have never paid for anything ever and never will while on active duty.

    This health bill was just done up all wrong...it needs to be more like Canada or Australia to ever work...

    You can't half-socialize healthcare...they are requiring 100% of us to have healthcare, but they are leaving the cost regulation in the hands of private companies...which means insurance companies could very well destroy everything

    What we need is either 100% public healthcare, or a 50/50 deal where we have an option of private or public companies. This way they private companies will be forced to compete.

    And the Government also needs to regulate the cost of medication and doctors as well if this ever has a hope of working...
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    Quote Originally Posted by votum View Post
    And the Government also needs to regulate the cost of medication and doctors as well if this ever has a hope of working...
    which is totally ridiculous, and against the american way of life. Telling a manufacturer what he call sell his product for (when he has to spend hundreds of millions on getting government approval to sell it) will only crush new drug development, and telling our highest educated and most important professionals how much they can make is no better. Socialism or communism is what that points to as then what industry becomes next? Food and farming? then transportation, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    which is totally ridiculous, and against the american way of life. Telling a manufacturer what he call sell his product for (when he has to spend hundreds of millions on getting government approval to sell it) will only crush new drug development, and telling our highest educated and most important professionals how much they can make is no better. Socialism or communism is what that points to as then what industry becomes next? Food and farming? then transportation, etc.
    I cannot justify a company gouging for a substance that is supposed to save lives. People die for their buck. At that point, I see them as criminals, and would treat them as such.

    And honestly, many cures get overlooked because there is no money in them. These big drug companies pass up plenty of research that has shown cheaper and effective routes of dealing with some medical conditions, and will even speak out against it because it provides no real profit. That is ALL they care about.

    Why cant we stop waging war, and just dedicate 1/10th of the budget we waste blowing up Iraqi kids, and instead run a research program for cures. By the public money, therefore owned by the public, and therefore not gouged, patented, etc. Its always nice when someone in the hospital is told

    "There is a drug to save you, but your insurance doesnt cover it, and its 400 bucks per pill. You need 2 of them a day for 3 months. Sorry, enjoy going off to die!"

    One of my old bosses who got MERCA had great insurance, and even then he had these pills that cost him 90 bucks a pill he had to pay for, 3 a day, for weeks on end...

    Screw Capitalism, it breeds demons and dogs. Everyone supports it only because of making $$$, and $$$ is the reason America is so F**ed up. Its focused on too much. Capitalism allows the wicked to crush the weak, and call it "fair market". Walmart, Krogers, big pharma companies, etc have proven capitalism does not work. When things get to this scale of size, they utterly destroy the free market.

    So before using their rights to ripping people off and letting people die just because this country is a Capitalistic nation(definitely not democracy anymore). Think what a man is obligated to do for his brethren.

    Wait...forgot, in America its slit whoever the hell gets in your ways throat, then kill his kids in front of him, and beat his wife all while he dies...metaphorically speaking. There is a reason many societies are starting to look down upon us, and its not waging war. And its not envy. Americans are useless in the modern world for the most part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    which is totally ridiculous, and against the american way of life. Telling a manufacturer what he call sell his product for (when he has to spend hundreds of millions on getting government approval to sell it) will only crush new drug development, and telling our highest educated and most important professionals how much they can make is no better. Socialism or communism is what that points to as then what industry becomes next? Food and farming? then transportation, etc.
    I cannot justify a company gouging for a substance that is supposed to save lives. People die for their buck. At that point, I see them as criminals, and would treat them as such.

    And honestly, many cures get overlooked because there is no money in them. These big drug companies pass up plenty of research that has shown cheaper and effective routes of dealing with some medical conditions, and will even speak out against it because it provides no real profit. That is ALL they care about.

    Why cant we stop waging war, and just dedicate 1/10th of the budget we waste blowing up Iraqi kids, and instead run a research program for cures. By the public money, therefore owned by the public, and therefore not gouged, patented, etc. Its always nice when someone in the hospital is told

    "There is a drug to save you, but your insurance doesnt cover it, and its 400 bucks per pill. You need 2 of them a day for 3 months. Sorry, enjoy going off to die!"

    One of my old bosses who got MERCA had great insurance, and even then he had these pills that cost him 90 bucks a pill he had to pay for, 3 a day, for weeks on end...

    Screw Capitalism, it breeds demons and dogs. Everyone supports it only because of making $$$, and $$$ is the reason America is so F**ed up. Its focused on too much. Capitalism allows the wicked to crush the weak, and call it "fair market". Walmart, Krogers, big pharma companies, etc have proven capitalism does not work. When things get to this scale of size, they utterly destroy the free market.

    So before using their rights to ripping people off and letting people die just because this country is a Capitalistic nation(definitely not democracy anymore). Think what a man is obligated to do for his brethren.

    Wait...forgot, in America its slit whoever the hell gets in your ways throat, then kill his kids in front of him, and beat his wife all while he dies...metaphorically speaking. There is a reason many societies are starting to look down upon us, and its not waging war. And its not envy. Americans are useless in the modern world for the most part.
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    Thank you Votum and Zero, I tried to rep you both, but apparently I repp'd Votum too recently.

    My problem with this whole ordeal is simply that a decision of keeping someone alive should not come down to cost analysis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Thank you Votum and Zero, I tried to rep you both, but apparently I repp'd Votum too recently.

    My problem with this whole ordeal is simply that a decision of keeping someone alive should not come down to cost analysis.
    But it always does, whether in socialized medicine or not. There becomes a point where the cost of further treatment is prohibitive to buy the person another small amount of time. Most of the fine european socialized medicine countries have set a guideline of not delivering or resuscitating babies born prematurely anywhere from 22 weeks to 24 weeks depending on country because the cost is too high, with odds of survival low and future health problems likely. Multimillions to get the child to just their 40 week term. Heck, even simpler whether a person can stay hospitalized in socialized medicine is based on the cost of the bed since the government only provides x number of beds. Someone worse off than you comes in, you get discharged.

    And Zero V is crazy, but anyone who has been here any length of time knows that
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    And Zero V is crazy, but anyone who has been here any length of time knows that
    We dont see eye to eye on religion, and for the most part I still support capitalism, but in my eyes he is spot on with his views of the industry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    But it always does, whether in socialized medicine or not. There becomes a point where the cost of further treatment is prohibitive to buy the person another small amount of time. Most of the fine european socialized medicine countries have set a guideline of not delivering or resuscitating babies born prematurely anywhere from 22 weeks to 24 weeks depending on country because the cost is too high, with odds of survival low and future health problems likely. Multimillions to get the child to just their 40 week term. Heck, even simpler whether a person can stay hospitalized in socialized medicine is based on the cost of the bed since the government only provides x number of beds. Someone worse off than you comes in, you get discharged.

    And Zero V is crazy, but anyone who has been here any length of time knows that
    The whole "cost to save" issue is whats BS though. Some of these drugs they charge insane prices for can easily be mass produced hence why generic brans can be dirt cheap like 4 bucks for an RX and be sold cheap. But due to having patents, they are allowed to make billions first, what is the length of time it takes 10 years before another can make it? So the REAL cost of survival is not high at all, its just not a profit. Also lets start fixing the causes of problems shall we?

    Burn down all fast food joints, ban the use of chemicals such as acetame,msg, etc in foods. Ban the use of hormones and antibiotics in foods. And so on. People lived fine until they came along, they could do fine without. But no today we consider it a personal freedom for some fat useless idiot to eat 4 baconaters because its his right to choose to do so. I think Osama bin laden is alive and he runs our fast food chains. Perfect terrorism.

    Of course trying to get rid of everything that is likely causing our genetic material to unravel and degrade with each generation, is not an important thing at all. At least not of $$$ is involved and fat people.

    I really dont care if its all around. I am just stating some points. Our society is set up to eat people alive, and then live off their walking corpse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero V View Post
    I think Osama bin laden is alive and he runs our fast food chains. Perfect terrorism.
    ...






















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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    ...



    You know that new double down is an attempt to wipe out Americans

    Note "I have dry sarcasm that is sometimes hard to pick up"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero V View Post
    The whole "cost to save" issue is whats BS though. Some of these drugs they charge insane prices for can easily be mass produced hence why generic brans can be dirt cheap like 4 bucks for an RX and be sold cheap. But due to having patents, they are allowed to make billions first, what is the length of time it takes 10 years before another can make it? So the REAL cost of survival is not high at all, its just not a profit. Also lets start fixing the causes of problems shall we?
    So lets see, what you are suggesting is that people like you and me invest in companies so they have money to do research into drugs, spend all the millions to get FDA approval, and then should sell them for cost? Do you expect drug researchers to be volunteers too? And the equipment manufacturers that make it shouldn't make a profit either, and probably the guys on the production line shouldn't get paid either.

    Whats next food? transportation? Housing? Why should anyone have to pay for food? Cost of food is causing starvation + death too right here in the US. People can't get jobs because they don't have transportation so why shouldn't they be given it? People are homeless, why should they potentially die due to lack of a home? Name any portion of anything that you can't use that same flawed logic to. All you are pointing down is the road to socialism/communism, which comically in the end has everyone but the elites living a lower standard of living.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    So lets see, what you are suggesting is that people like you and me invest in companies so they have money to do research into drugs, spend all the millions to get FDA approval, and then should sell them for cost? Do you expect drug researchers to be volunteers too? And the equipment manufacturers that make it shouldn't make a profit either, and probably the guys on the production line shouldn't get paid either.

    Whats next food? transportation? Housing? Why should anyone have to pay for food? Cost of food is causing starvation + death too right here in the US. People can't get jobs because they don't have transportation so why shouldn't they be given it? People are homeless, why should they potentially die due to lack of a home? Name any portion of anything that you can't use that same flawed logic to. All you are pointing down is the road to socialism/communism, which comically in the end has everyone but the elites living a lower standard of living.
    Food, Transportation, and housing are all price competitive markets. Cost is a major major factor in the consumer purchasing decisions. Health Care simply does not give any competition, prices are set, pay up or die.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Food, Transportation, and housing are all price competitive markets. Cost is a major major factor in the consumer purchasing decisions. Health Care simply does not give any competition, prices are set, pay up or die.
    Its kind of funny, again none of what is in the healthcare bill does a single drop to address that.

    Thats only because of the way insurance has been structured. Remove insurance from the picture entirely, or only have heavy catastrophic insurance. When people have to pay for preventative, well care and day to day prescriptions out of their pockets, then the market becomes competitive again.

    If you go back to pre-WWII, most health insurance was just that, heavy catastrophic insurance with you paying for the care you use and you paid for the insurance yourself. When there was a government forced wage freeze in WWII, employers began trying to find sneaky ways to add more compensation and covering health insurance was one of those ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    But it always does, whether in socialized medicine or not. There becomes a point where the cost of further treatment is prohibitive to buy the person another small amount of time. Most of the fine european socialized medicine countries have set a guideline of not delivering or resuscitating babies born prematurely anywhere from 22 weeks to 24 weeks depending on country because the cost is too high, with odds of survival low and future health problems likely. Multimillions to get the child to just their 40 week term. Heck, even simpler whether a person can stay hospitalized in socialized medicine is based on the cost of the bed since the government only provides x number of beds. Someone worse off than you comes in, you get discharged.

    And Zero V is crazy, but anyone who has been here any length of time knows that

    In America they deliver those babies, not to save a life but because they can put the family in debt forever and extract way more money than they would have gotten from them initially..

    You do realize that this bill is Socialism right? Look at how the country has been ran the past 2 years. The government owns majority shares in several VERY large companies. This healthcare bill, where we are FORCED to purchase healthcare. Socialism will happen if we don't throw this idiot out of office.

    And please please please say something about how he inherited his problems and he's doing the best he can....leaders do not inherit problems. The day he took over, those problems became his. I can understand for a few months him blaming bush, but after 2 years he hasn't done **** except spend several trillion dollars more than bush spent, digging us into a further hole. America elected a damn fool, who had 0 experience. WTF would you vote for a 1st term senator...that's like making the cashier who has been at Wal-Mart for 2 weeks the CEO. Retarded... The funny thing is the way the media spins **** these days, he'll probably get elected again somehow...

    Back on topic:

    You seem like you are arguing both sides of the fence, which are you on?

    Health bill is 50% socialism and 50% capitalism...these two systems do not play nice together...and they can't just because of how they work, 1 is about whats mine is yours, the other is about whats mine is yours if you have the money.

    I do not want a socialist nation at all, but there are some systems that need to be completely overhauled, and socialistic systems for those would work better than what we are doing now.

    Healthcare Capitalism: I spend tons of money per year to pay for something that may or may not happen to me later on life. If what happens to me is very expensive, the insurance co may not even pay for it, thus stealing my money and killing me.

    Healthcare Socialism: I don't spend any money, but I am taxed slightly more. I can go to the doctor when I want. Medication is free. I may have to wait in lines longer, but my healthcare just works.

    Healthcare USA with new bill: I still spend tons of money each year, I am also getting taxed more. My medications still cost money, and if the medical companies want to, they can raise the prices on me.

    " in USA ..... #2: I was living paycheck to paycheck. I was young and did not need health insurance. Now that to gov requires me to pay for it, I may not be able to pay rent next month.

    A socialistic approach to healthcare in the us would work, but it has to be 100% socialized, not this half-ass bull**** that Obama forced through before his approval rates got any lower.

    You cannot tax people, force them to pay for something they don't want or need, and then let the private companies providing the service the Government is forcing everyone to use regulate the cost. That SCREAMS lobbyists, which is one of the main reasons the US government is so messed up.

    Housing market could use some socialism too...the only reason the housing market is so messed up is because of this:

    Illustration: Steve lives in a dump in NY,NY. 500 square foot studio. Steve paid 50,000 for his place last year. Steve decides to move, he puts a granite countertop in his studio for 1,000 dollars. Steve buys some fancy furniture and organizes all his place well. Steve lists his house for 250,000. Steve's house sells, because some butthead with enough money bought it.

    BAM EVERY 500 sq ft dump within 5 miles of steve's studio just increased in value by 200 grand.

    That crap happened all over America, and when people couldn't afford it any more, credit companies gave them the loans, which obviously failed.

    Sorry...endrant lol.
    Last edited by votum; 06-01-2010 at 07:28 PM. Reason: There was way too much swearing in there for me to be comfortable posting lol.
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    Votum, I tend to agree very strongly with your idea of health care, but disagree on the Obama bit. Obama wanted a full public option, which was as close to socialized medicine that he thought he would ever get passed the do nothing conservatives that will play congress games with any bill he endorses. Well, couldn't even get that one through, so what we have is the half ass bill presented to us because that is all they felt they could get through. I am not a fan of the bill in its entirety, but its a step in the right direction.

    But like I said, minus the fact that I about 70% endorse Obama, I agree with many of your views on health insurance and would love to see us become as socialized with medicine the majority of all other first world countries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Votum, I tend to agree very strongly with your idea of health care, but disagree on the Obama bit. Obama wanted a full public option, which was as close to socialized medicine that he thought he would ever get passed the do nothing conservatives that will play congress games with any bill he endorses. Well, couldn't even get that one through, so what we have is the half ass bill presented to us because that is all they felt they could get through. I am not a fan of the bill in its entirety, but its a step in the right direction.

    But like I said, minus the fact that I about 70% endorse Obama, I agree with many of your views on health insurance and would love to see us become as socialized with medicine the majority of all other first world countries.
    Thank God most in America do not agree with you.
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