Health DEFORM what it costs YOU!

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    And Zero V is crazy, but anyone who has been here any length of time knows that
    We dont see eye to eye on religion, and for the most part I still support capitalism, but in my eyes he is spot on with his views of the industry.
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  2. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    But it always does, whether in socialized medicine or not. There becomes a point where the cost of further treatment is prohibitive to buy the person another small amount of time. Most of the fine european socialized medicine countries have set a guideline of not delivering or resuscitating babies born prematurely anywhere from 22 weeks to 24 weeks depending on country because the cost is too high, with odds of survival low and future health problems likely. Multimillions to get the child to just their 40 week term. Heck, even simpler whether a person can stay hospitalized in socialized medicine is based on the cost of the bed since the government only provides x number of beds. Someone worse off than you comes in, you get discharged.

    And Zero V is crazy, but anyone who has been here any length of time knows that
    The whole "cost to save" issue is whats BS though. Some of these drugs they charge insane prices for can easily be mass produced hence why generic brans can be dirt cheap like 4 bucks for an RX and be sold cheap. But due to having patents, they are allowed to make billions first, what is the length of time it takes 10 years before another can make it? So the REAL cost of survival is not high at all, its just not a profit. Also lets start fixing the causes of problems shall we?

    Burn down all fast food joints, ban the use of chemicals such as acetame,msg, etc in foods. Ban the use of hormones and antibiotics in foods. And so on. People lived fine until they came along, they could do fine without. But no today we consider it a personal freedom for some fat useless idiot to eat 4 baconaters because its his right to choose to do so. I think Osama bin laden is alive and he runs our fast food chains. Perfect terrorism.

    Of course trying to get rid of everything that is likely causing our genetic material to unravel and degrade with each generation, is not an important thing at all. At least not of $$$ is involved and fat people.

    I really dont care if its all around. I am just stating some points. Our society is set up to eat people alive, and then live off their walking corpse.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Zero V View Post
    I think Osama bin laden is alive and he runs our fast food chains. Perfect terrorism.
    ...






















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  4. Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    ...



    You know that new double down is an attempt to wipe out Americans

    Note "I have dry sarcasm that is sometimes hard to pick up"
  5. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero V View Post
    The whole "cost to save" issue is whats BS though. Some of these drugs they charge insane prices for can easily be mass produced hence why generic brans can be dirt cheap like 4 bucks for an RX and be sold cheap. But due to having patents, they are allowed to make billions first, what is the length of time it takes 10 years before another can make it? So the REAL cost of survival is not high at all, its just not a profit. Also lets start fixing the causes of problems shall we?
    So lets see, what you are suggesting is that people like you and me invest in companies so they have money to do research into drugs, spend all the millions to get FDA approval, and then should sell them for cost? Do you expect drug researchers to be volunteers too? And the equipment manufacturers that make it shouldn't make a profit either, and probably the guys on the production line shouldn't get paid either.

    Whats next food? transportation? Housing? Why should anyone have to pay for food? Cost of food is causing starvation + death too right here in the US. People can't get jobs because they don't have transportation so why shouldn't they be given it? People are homeless, why should they potentially die due to lack of a home? Name any portion of anything that you can't use that same flawed logic to. All you are pointing down is the road to socialism/communism, which comically in the end has everyone but the elites living a lower standard of living.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    So lets see, what you are suggesting is that people like you and me invest in companies so they have money to do research into drugs, spend all the millions to get FDA approval, and then should sell them for cost? Do you expect drug researchers to be volunteers too? And the equipment manufacturers that make it shouldn't make a profit either, and probably the guys on the production line shouldn't get paid either.

    Whats next food? transportation? Housing? Why should anyone have to pay for food? Cost of food is causing starvation + death too right here in the US. People can't get jobs because they don't have transportation so why shouldn't they be given it? People are homeless, why should they potentially die due to lack of a home? Name any portion of anything that you can't use that same flawed logic to. All you are pointing down is the road to socialism/communism, which comically in the end has everyone but the elites living a lower standard of living.
    Food, Transportation, and housing are all price competitive markets. Cost is a major major factor in the consumer purchasing decisions. Health Care simply does not give any competition, prices are set, pay up or die.
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  7. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Food, Transportation, and housing are all price competitive markets. Cost is a major major factor in the consumer purchasing decisions. Health Care simply does not give any competition, prices are set, pay up or die.
    Its kind of funny, again none of what is in the healthcare bill does a single drop to address that.

    Thats only because of the way insurance has been structured. Remove insurance from the picture entirely, or only have heavy catastrophic insurance. When people have to pay for preventative, well care and day to day prescriptions out of their pockets, then the market becomes competitive again.

    If you go back to pre-WWII, most health insurance was just that, heavy catastrophic insurance with you paying for the care you use and you paid for the insurance yourself. When there was a government forced wage freeze in WWII, employers began trying to find sneaky ways to add more compensation and covering health insurance was one of those ways.
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    But it always does, whether in socialized medicine or not. There becomes a point where the cost of further treatment is prohibitive to buy the person another small amount of time. Most of the fine european socialized medicine countries have set a guideline of not delivering or resuscitating babies born prematurely anywhere from 22 weeks to 24 weeks depending on country because the cost is too high, with odds of survival low and future health problems likely. Multimillions to get the child to just their 40 week term. Heck, even simpler whether a person can stay hospitalized in socialized medicine is based on the cost of the bed since the government only provides x number of beds. Someone worse off than you comes in, you get discharged.

    And Zero V is crazy, but anyone who has been here any length of time knows that

    In America they deliver those babies, not to save a life but because they can put the family in debt forever and extract way more money than they would have gotten from them initially..

    You do realize that this bill is Socialism right? Look at how the country has been ran the past 2 years. The government owns majority shares in several VERY large companies. This healthcare bill, where we are FORCED to purchase healthcare. Socialism will happen if we don't throw this idiot out of office.

    And please please please say something about how he inherited his problems and he's doing the best he can....leaders do not inherit problems. The day he took over, those problems became his. I can understand for a few months him blaming bush, but after 2 years he hasn't done **** except spend several trillion dollars more than bush spent, digging us into a further hole. America elected a damn fool, who had 0 experience. WTF would you vote for a 1st term senator...that's like making the cashier who has been at Wal-Mart for 2 weeks the CEO. Retarded... The funny thing is the way the media spins **** these days, he'll probably get elected again somehow...

    Back on topic:

    You seem like you are arguing both sides of the fence, which are you on?

    Health bill is 50% socialism and 50% capitalism...these two systems do not play nice together...and they can't just because of how they work, 1 is about whats mine is yours, the other is about whats mine is yours if you have the money.

    I do not want a socialist nation at all, but there are some systems that need to be completely overhauled, and socialistic systems for those would work better than what we are doing now.

    Healthcare Capitalism: I spend tons of money per year to pay for something that may or may not happen to me later on life. If what happens to me is very expensive, the insurance co may not even pay for it, thus stealing my money and killing me.

    Healthcare Socialism: I don't spend any money, but I am taxed slightly more. I can go to the doctor when I want. Medication is free. I may have to wait in lines longer, but my healthcare just works.

    Healthcare USA with new bill: I still spend tons of money each year, I am also getting taxed more. My medications still cost money, and if the medical companies want to, they can raise the prices on me.

    " in USA ..... #2: I was living paycheck to paycheck. I was young and did not need health insurance. Now that to gov requires me to pay for it, I may not be able to pay rent next month.

    A socialistic approach to healthcare in the us would work, but it has to be 100% socialized, not this half-ass bull**** that Obama forced through before his approval rates got any lower.

    You cannot tax people, force them to pay for something they don't want or need, and then let the private companies providing the service the Government is forcing everyone to use regulate the cost. That SCREAMS lobbyists, which is one of the main reasons the US government is so messed up.

    Housing market could use some socialism too...the only reason the housing market is so messed up is because of this:

    Illustration: Steve lives in a dump in NY,NY. 500 square foot studio. Steve paid 50,000 for his place last year. Steve decides to move, he puts a granite countertop in his studio for 1,000 dollars. Steve buys some fancy furniture and organizes all his place well. Steve lists his house for 250,000. Steve's house sells, because some butthead with enough money bought it.

    BAM EVERY 500 sq ft dump within 5 miles of steve's studio just increased in value by 200 grand.

    That crap happened all over America, and when people couldn't afford it any more, credit companies gave them the loans, which obviously failed.

    Sorry...endrant lol.
    Last edited by votum; 06-01-2010 at 06:28 PM. Reason: There was way too much swearing in there for me to be comfortable posting lol.

  9. Votum, I tend to agree very strongly with your idea of health care, but disagree on the Obama bit. Obama wanted a full public option, which was as close to socialized medicine that he thought he would ever get passed the do nothing conservatives that will play congress games with any bill he endorses. Well, couldn't even get that one through, so what we have is the half ass bill presented to us because that is all they felt they could get through. I am not a fan of the bill in its entirety, but its a step in the right direction.

    But like I said, minus the fact that I about 70% endorse Obama, I agree with many of your views on health insurance and would love to see us become as socialized with medicine the majority of all other first world countries.
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Votum, I tend to agree very strongly with your idea of health care, but disagree on the Obama bit. Obama wanted a full public option, which was as close to socialized medicine that he thought he would ever get passed the do nothing conservatives that will play congress games with any bill he endorses. Well, couldn't even get that one through, so what we have is the half ass bill presented to us because that is all they felt they could get through. I am not a fan of the bill in its entirety, but its a step in the right direction.

    But like I said, minus the fact that I about 70% endorse Obama, I agree with many of your views on health insurance and would love to see us become as socialized with medicine the majority of all other first world countries.
    Thank God most in America do not agree with you.
    The Historic PES Legend

  11. The Historic PES Legend

  12. For Great Britain
    Great Britain's National Health Service (NHS) was created on July 5, 1948. As with all government programs, bureaucrats underestimated initial cost projections. First-year operating costs of NHS were 52 million pounds higher than original estimates1 as Britons saturated the so-called free system.

    Many decades of shortages, misery and suffering followed until 1989, when some market-based health care competition was reintroduced to the British citizens2.

    Unfortunately for those requiring care, a mostly socialist health care system has problems. The articles and commentaries in this section identify some disasters caused by government intervention in the British health care system.

    I also recommend reading David G. Green and Laura Casper's economic report, Delay, Denial and Dilution: The Impact of NHS Rationing on Heart Disease and Cancer to see the inevitable outcome of the necessary rationing of government health care.


    Straight from the newspapers

    * Labour's secret plan to send overweight children to NHS fat camps
    - Laura Donnelly, September 6, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

    * Burnham Forgets 230,000 on List
    - Macer Hall, August 14, 2009 [Daily Express (UK)]

    * £1.2bn bill for the bureaucrat army within the NHS
    - Jenny Hope, August 13, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]

    * Couples Face an IVF Postcode Lottery
    - Katherine Fenech, August 6, 2009 [Daily Express (UK)]

    * Kidney cancer patients denied life-saving drugs by NHS rationing body NICE
    - April 29, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]

    * Girl, 3, has heart operation cancelled three times because of bed shortage
    - David Rose, April 23, 2009 [Times Online]

    * Number of children going to hospital to have teeth pulled soars by 66% since 1997
    - Daniel Martin and Cher Thornhill, April 12, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]

    * NHS 'failings' over elderly falls
    - March 25, 2009 [BBC]

    * Learning disabled 'failed by NHS'
    - Nick Triggle, March 24, 2009 [BBC]

    * Cancer survivor confronts the health secretary on 62-day wait
    - Lyndsay Moss, March 21, 2009 [The Scotsman]

    * Culture of targets prevents nurses from tending to patients
    - Claire Rayner, President of the Patients Association, March 21, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

    * Children being failed by health system, says head of watchdog
    - Sarah Boseley, March 21, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * Our cancer shame: Survival rates still lag behind EU despite spending billions
    - Jenny Hope, March 20, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Failing hospital 'caused deaths'
    - March 17, 2009 [BBC]

    * Health gap drive 'wasted money'
    - Nick Triggle, March 14, 2009 [BBC]

    * Longer GP opening hours branded wasteful 'PR exercise' by doctors
    - Lyndsay Moss, March 13, 2009 [The Scotsman]

    * "Political meddling" threatens general practice, warns GP leader
    - March 13, 2009 [Management in Practice (UK)]

    * Children at risk through lack of training for doctors and nurses, report warns
    - Rebecca Smith, March 13, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

    * Chocolate should be taxed to control obesity epidemic, doctors are told
    - Simon Johnson, March 13, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

    * 1,000 villagers wait for a dentist after just one NHS practice opens
    - March 10, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Study that proves the folly of NHS Alzheimer's drug ban
    - Jenny Hope, March 7, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * NHS charges to rise in England
    - March 5, 2009 [BBC]

    * Disabled children wait up to two years for wheelchairs
    - March 4, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * NHS under fire over waiting times
    - February 25, 2009 [The Scotsman]

    * Government procrastination blamed for HIV-contaminated blood tragedy
    - February 23, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * Specialist nurses 'vastly overworked'
    - February 20, 2009 [Harwich & Manningtree Standard]

    * Hundreds of operations cancelled at Lothian hospitals
    - Adam Morris, February 19, 2009 [The Scotsman]

    * Stop asking for antibiotics to cure coughs and colds, Government tells patients
    - Daniel Martin, February 17, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Stroke services are 'UK's worst'
    - February 17, 2009 [BBC]

    * Hospitals curb caesarean births
    - Sarah-Kate Templeton, February 15, 2009 [The Times]

    * Only five out of 51 hospital trusts pass hygiene test, say inspectors
    - Sarah Boseley, November 24, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * Top doctors slam NHS drug rationing
    - Sarah-Kate Templeton, August 24, 2008 [The Times]

    * Heart patients dying due to poor hospital care, says report
    - Sarah Boseley, June 8, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * NHS dentistry loses almost a million patients after new dentists' contract
    - David Rose, June 6, 2008 [The Times]

    * Private healthcare managers could be sent to turn round failing NHS hospitals
    - Philip Webster, Political Editor, and David Rose, June 4, 2008 [The Times]

    * Cancer patients ‘betrayed’ by NHS
    - Sarah-Kate Templeton, June 1, 2008 [The Times]

    * NHS scandal: dying cancer victim was forced to pay
    - Sarah-Kate Templeton, June 1, 2008 [The Times]

    * Pensioner, 76, forced to pull out own teeth after 12 NHS dentists refuse to treat her
    - Olinka Koster, March 26, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Dental patients face care lottery
    - March 26, 2008 [Metro(UK)]

    * Lung patients 'condemned to death as NHS withdraws their too expensive drugs'
    - Jenny Hope, March 24, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Women in labour turned away by maternity units
    - John Carvel, March 21, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * Health inequality has got worse under Labour, says government report
    - Andrew Sparrow, March 13, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * Angry GPs reluctantly accept plan for weekend and evening surgeries
    - John Carvel, March 7, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * NHS chiefs tell grandmother, 61, she's 'too old' for £5,000 life-saving heart surgery
    - Chris Brooke, February 28, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Patient 'removed' from waiting list to meet target
    - January 31, 2008 [The Scotsman]

    * NHS patients told to treat themselves
    - James Kirkup, January 4, 2008 [Telegraph UK]

    * NHS is 'failing patients' despite record funding
    - Rebecca Smith, October 4, 2007 [Telegraph UK]

    * NHS rationing rife, say doctors
    - September 24, 2007 [BBC]

    * One in eight patients waiting over a year for treatment, admits minister
    - John Carvel, June 8, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * Audit Office asked to investigate record £500m NHS underspend
    - John Carvel, May 30, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * The drugs the NHS won't give you
    - May 11, 2007 [Telegraph UK]

    * UK lagging behind on cancer drug access, study finds
    - May 10, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * One in six trusts is still putting patients on mixed-sex wards
    - Daniel Martin, May 10, 2007 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Specialist stroke care 'lottery'
    - May 9, 2007 [BBC News]

    * Smokers and the obese banned from UK hospitals
    - May 2, 2007 [Healthcare News]

    * Cancer patients told life-prolonging treatment is too expensive for NHS
    - Lyndsay Moss, February 13, 2007 [The Scotsman]

    * UK health service "harms 10 percent of patients"
    - Kate Kelland, July 7, 2006 [Reuters]

    * 5,000 elderly 'killed each year' by lack of care beds
    - June 26, 2006 [Telegraph UK]

    * Dental Socialism in Britain
    - Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr., May 9, 2006 [LewRockwell.com]

    * Pay for nurses and surgeons doubles NHS overspend
    - Beezy Marsh, Patrick Hennessy and Nina Goswami, April 23, 2006 [Telegraph UK]

    * The money addicts: it's your cash they are gambling with
    - Patience Wheatcroft, April 23, 2006 [Telegraph UK]

    * NHS chiefs get luxury car deals
    - Daniel Foggo and Steven Swinford, April 9, 2006 [The Times]

    * Secret NHS plan to ration patient care
    - Nigel Hawkes, April 7, 2006 [The Times]

    * British Healthcare To Be Rationed
    - April 7, 2006 [United Press International]

    * British body rejects EPO drugs for cancer patients
    - March 17, 2006 [Reuters]

    * National Health Service - Grappling with Deficits
    - March 9, 2006 [Economist.com]

    * Hundreds wait to register as another dentist quits the NHS
    - Martin Williams, September 23, 2005 [The Herald (Scotland)]

    * Life-saving cancer drugs 'kept from NHS patients by red tape'
    - Sam Lister, September 20, 2005 [The Times]

    * NHS slides into the red despite record increases in health care spending
    - September 20, 2005 [Telegraph UK]

    * Alzheimer's sufferers hit by further delay in NHS approval for vital drugs
    - Michael Day, September 18, 2005 [Telegraph UK]

    * We all pay a price for our 'free' NHS
    - John Smith, August 19, 2005 [The Scotsman]

    * 2,000 British doctors out of work
    - August 14, 2005 [The Washington Times]

    * UK health 'unsustainable'
    - August 14, 2005 [Finance24]

    * NHS faces rising bill for negligence claims
    - Ben Hall, August 8, 2005 [Financial Times]

    * British boy to go to India for operation
    - August 5, 2005 [United Press International]

    * NHS failed to stop doctor raping scores of women
    - Lois Rogers and Jonathon Carr-Brown, July 31, 2005 [The Times]

    * Top crimewriter funds drugs for cancer victim refused by NHS
    - Martyn Halle, July 8, 2005 [Telegraph UK]

    * Report says NHS is mired in huge debts
    - David Simms, June 25, 2005 [ABC Money (UK)]

    * U.K. set to restrict smoking
    - June 21, 2005 [The Associated Press]

    * NHS ‘fund bias’ against men may cost 2,500 lives a year
    - Sarah-Kate Templeton, June 19, 2005 [The Times]

    * Doubts on funding NHS 'monuments'
    - Nicholas Timmins, June 10, 2005 [Financial Times]

    * 17 million reasons why we must improve hospital meals
    - June 7, 2005 [Cambridge Evening News]

    * Figures show more patients waiting for operations
    - June 3, 2005 [Guardian UK]

    * Scarcity of NHS dental treatment is revealed
    - Celia Hall, May 19, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * Why NHS Opposes 'Treatment by Demand' for the Dying
    - Stephen Howard and Jan Colley, PA, May 18, 2005 [Scotsman]

    * 800 queue for NHS dentists
    - May 5, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * Hundreds more heroin addicts to be given a fix on the NHS
    - Nic Fleming, April 25, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * British health service facing nurse exodus
    - April 25, 2005 [United Press International]

    * About 400 patients a year in Scotland succumb to MRSA
    - April 25, 2005 [Scotsman]

    * NHS debts soar to over £1bn
    - Karyn Miller, April 24, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * British taxpayers foot $26.5 million bill for abortion tourists
    - April 18, 2005 [Catholic World News]

    * U.K. Liberal Democrats Would Raise Taxes to Pay for Health Care
    - Reed Landberg, April 14, 2005 [Bloomberg]

    * Number of NHS Bureaucrats 'Rising Faster Than Health Staff'
    - Joe Churcher, March 22, 2005 [Scotsman]

    * '£500m hole' in hospital budgets
    - Celia Hall, March 21, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * 1,000 Scots desert NHS every week
    - Murdo Macleod, March 5, 2005 [Scotsman]

    * British NHS facing financial crisis
    - March 3, 2005 [Washington Times]

    * NHS drugs regulator to withdraw approval of Alzheimer's treatment
    - Nicholas Timmins, March 2, 2005 [FT.com - Financial Times]

    * NHS waiting list rises
    - February 11, 2005 [Guardian UK]

    * Tumour patients hit by NHS shortages
    - Jo Revill, February 6, 2005 [Guardian UK]

    * NHS financial crises set to outlast winter
    - Mike Waites, February 4, 2005 [Yorkshire Post]

    * NHS 24 'priority' callers wait four hours for advice
    - Caroline Wilson, January 14, 2005 [Evening Times (UK)]

    * 'No strategy' on NHS waiting time
    - January 14, 2005 [BBC]

    * Output figures show NHS decline
    - John Carvel, October 19, 2004 [Guardian UK]

    * Heart patients die on waiting lists
    - Peter Sharples, October 18, 2004 [Manchester Online]

    * £25bn overspend feared for NHS computer network
    - Karen Attwood, October 12, 2004 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * Gaps in care cost £7bn, says charity
    - John Carvel, October 4, 2004 [Guardian UK]

    * NHS excluding poor people, UK
    - September 15, 2004 [Medical News Today]

    * Smokers 'should not get NHS care'
    - September 6, 2004 [BBC News]

    * Waiting list row blights Brighton
    - John Carvel, September 4, 2004 [Guardian UK]

    * Patients are denied the last rites under data protection law
    - Elizabeth Day, July 25, 2004 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * Shortage of dentists to double by 2011
    - John Carvel, July 24, 2004 [Guardian UK]

    * Britain's stiff upper lip gives way to a snarl
    - Sarah Lyall, July 18, 2004 [The New York Times]

    * Hospital Overcrowding A Cause of Superbug Infections
    - John von Radowitz, July 1, 2004 [Scotsman.com]

    * Hospital Crisis: Fallen Angels
    - Lindsay Mcgarvie, May 23, 2004 [Glasgow Sunday Mail]

    * Study finds British hospitals are still austere, cold, smelly and poorly maintained
    - May 6, 2004 [News-Medical.net]

    * Hospital bathrooms and showers: a continuing saga of inadequacy
    - Andy Monro, MRCP & Graham P Mulley, DM, FRCP, May 2004 [Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine]

    * Majority back public smoking ban
    - March 24, 2004 [BBC]

    * Discrimination Rampant In British Health Care
    - Peter Moore, November 17, 2003 [365gay.com]

    * PERIPATETICS—To the Medical Socialists of All Parties
    - Sheldon Richman, September 2003 [FEE.org]

    * Creeping Privatization?
    Shortages of skilled workers, low morale, long queues for services, crumbling facilities and corrupt practises. - Roland Watson, August 6, 2001 [LewRockwell.com]

    * The World's Worst HMO
    - Stephen D. Moore, November 24, 1999 [Random Thoughts]

    * Socialized Medicine in Great Britain: Lessons for the Oregon Health Plan
    - Professor John Spiers, March 18, 1999 [Cascade Policy Institute]

    * The Sickbed Which is Socialized British Medicine
    - December 23, 1997 [NCPA]

    * The British Way of Withholding Care
    - Harry Schwarz, March 1989 [FEE.org]
    The Historic PES Legend

  13. For Canada
    Parliament unanimously passed the Canada Health Act in 1984 and established a single-payer, publicly-financed health care system. To ensure a true government monopoly (is there any other kind?) Canadian provinces outlawed private health insurance.

    Chaoulli v. Quebec UPDATE (June 9, 2005): In a 4 to 3 decision, the Canadian Supreme Court struck down Quebec's law that prohibits private medical insurance.

    U.S. Patients have Greater Access to Advanced Medical Technology Than Do Canadians


    * Surgery postponed indefinitely for 1,000 Kelowna patients
    - Cathryn Atkinson, April 8, 2008 [Globe and Mail]

    * Majority of Que. dentists quit health-care system
    - March 27, 2008 [CTV.ca]

    * Why Ontario keeps sending patients south
    - Lisa Priest, February 22, 2008 [Globe and Mail]

    * Will Socialized Health Care in the US Kill Canadians?
    - Don Surber, March 3, 2008 [Acton Institute]

    * Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report
    - October 15, 2007 [CBC News (Canada)]

    * The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
    - David Gratzer, Summer 2007 [City Journal]

    * Cancer patients question why PET scan not covered
    - May 28, 2007 [CBC News]

    * BC Medical Association: Waiting Too Long for Hip and Knee Surgery Costs $10,000 Per Patient-Maximum Wait Times Should Be No Longer Than 6 Months
    - June 28, 2006 [CCN Matthews]

    * Ont. physician turns away patient for being 55+
    - March 17, 2006 [CTV.ca]

    * Canada inches toward private medicine
    - Rebecca Cook Dube, August 8, 2005 [CS Monitor]

    * Doctor defends private cancer clinic
    - Gillian Livingston, July 15, 2005 [Canadian Press]

    * Dogma trumps truth in health-care issues
    - D’Arcy Jenish, July 7, 2005 [Ontario Business News]

    * Why Canadians Purchase Private Health Insurance
    - Walter Williams, June 20, 2005 [Capitalism Magazine]

    * Doctor welcomes health ruling
    - June 9, 2005 [CBC Montreal]

    * Patients shouldn't wait more than 8 weeks for cardiac defibrillator: experts
    - May 24, 2005 [Canadian Press]

    * Grads fail to slow doctor shortage
    - Jennifer O'Brien, May 21, 2005 [London Free Press]

    * Free Canadian health care comes at cost
    - April 10, 2005 [Arkansas Democrat-Gazette]

    * Canada's drug tab reaches $22 billion, report suggests
    - Sheryl Ubelacker, CP, April 6, 2005 [London Free Press]

    * Canadian health care is free and first-class -- if you can wait
    - Beth Duff-Brown, March 19, 2005 [The Associated Press]

    * Pediatricians, parents warn of shortage of community-based care for children
    - Colin Perkel, March 4, 2005 [The Canadian Press]

    * Access to specialists difficult: study
    - February 16, 2005 [CBC Calgary]

    * Doctor shortages, frustrations vary from region to region, survey shows
    - February 15, 2005 [Canada.com]

    * Montreal leads the country in offering private health care
    - Aaron Derfel, February 12, 2005 [Montreal Gazette]

    * Canada falling short on medical imaging
    - February 9, 2005 [Macleans.ca]

    * Creative incentives required to retain older doctors
    - Dr. Charles Shaver, January 20, 2005 [Toronto Star]

    * MRI gap defies cash fix
    - Mark Kennedy, January 14, 2005 [National Post (Canada)]

    * A boy's plight, a nation's problem
    - Lisa Priest, January 13, 2005 [The Globe and Mail]

    * Where's proof private clinics cost more?
    - Tom Brodbeck, December 4, 2004 [The Winnipeg Sun]

    * Surgery backlog tops 5,500 at kids' hospitals; One-year waits common
    - Aaron Derfel, December 3, 2004 [The Gazette (Montreal)]

    * Hospital wait lists to get worse, Carriere says
    - Chris Traber, November 14, 2004 [Yorkregion.com]

    * Frustrated patients can't handle ER waits
    - Jennifer Stewart and Jeffrey Simpson, October 28, 2004 [The Halifax Herald Limited]

    * Private medical clinic opens in Montreal
    ...it answers, "an ever-increasing demand from the public for greater accessibility and quality of health services." - October 13, 2004 [CTV.ca]

    * Canadians have higher death risk than Americans after heart attack: study
    - Sheryl Ubelacker, September 20, 2004 [Canada.com]

    * Canadian medical tourists in India
    - Jeremy Copeland, September 20, 2004 [CBC News]

    * Doctor shortage cripples Canada's free health care
    - Clifford Krauss, September 18, 2004 [Minneapolis-St. Paul Star Tribune]

    * Canada's Once-Proud Public Health System in Crisis
    - David Ljunggren, September 14, 2004 [Reuters (Ottawa)]

    * Hospitals to cut, again
    - September 5, 2004 [Toronto Star]

    * Canada's Medical Nightmare
    - Robert J. Cihak, M.D., September 1, 2004 [Health Care News]

    * Canada faces shortage of doctors
    - August 19, 2004 [MSNBC]

    * Canadians losing faith in health system: poll
    - August 16, 2004 [CTV.ca]

    * Ontario hospitals a health risk
    - Michael Hurley, August 8, 2004 [Toronto Star]

    * Need surgery? Here's how long you'll wait
    "It's inhuman. The quality of my life is horrible and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it." - Jason Fekete, July 28, 2004 [Calgary Herald]

    * Docs, nurses fed up
    Canadian doctors and nurses are fed up with inter-governmental "bickering" that is dragging out wait times and causing more pain and suffering for patients. - July 28, 2004 [Winnipeg Sun]

    * Free Health Care?
    ...in some cases, patients die on the waiting list because they become too sick to tolerate a procedure. - Walter E. Williams, July 24, 2004 [CATO]

    * The truth about Canada's ailing health-care system
    All the major candidates in Canada's recent national election acknowledged that the country's health-care system is failing Canadians. - Robert J. Cihak, July 13, 2004 [The Seattle Times]

    * Health-care crisis looms, even with new money
    Canada's health-care system is "five to 10 years" from the breaking point -- even with cash injections from government, says the new president of the B.C. Medical Association. - Doug Alexander, July 5, 2004 [Vancouver Sun]

    * Emergency room delays a strong campaign factor
    "Go into the emergency room — it is the most pitiful piece of work you ever seen in your life." - David Bruser, June 22, 2004 [Toronto Star]

    * Canadian Health Care in Crisis
    Analyst visits NC to describe how single-payer health care really works in practice. - Donna Martinez, June 17, 2004 [Carolina Journal]

    * Quebec cancer patients sue over wait
    Women waited months for radiation; lawsuit could cost system $50-million. - Ingrid Peritz, March 11, 2004 [The Globe and Mail]

    * Health care: no waiting lists
    'You get knee surgery within two days ... try and get that in human hospitals.' Canada's [private] pet health-insurance industry is projected to grow at roughly 50 per cent a year... - Robert Scalia, November 30, 2003 [Montreal Gazette]

    * For some, surgery abroad a welcome answer
    - Daniel Girard, November 29, 2003 [Toronto Star]

    * Canadian Doctors Eyeing United States
    - Clifford Krauss, October 17, 2003 [The New York Times]

    * The Top Ten Things People Believe About Canadian Health Care, But Shouldn’t
    - Brian Lee Crowley, October 9, 2003 [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]

    * Canadians' health at risk, CMA says
    - Valerie Lawton, September 26, 2003 [Toronto Star]

    * Burnout is now doctors' ailment
    Almost half of Canadian doctors say they're burned out, emotionally exhausted and blame medicine for putting a drain on their family life. - Karen Palmer, August 20, 2003 [Toronto Star]

    * New MRI clinic in row over poaching
    While she insists she's not making any money off the venture, she says it provides an income allowance for her and her husband, the other principal in the company. - Theresa Boyle and Robert Benzie, July 28, 2003 [Toronto Star]

    * Price Controls and Overall Drug Spending
    The Canadian system, however, tends to push up overall spending on prescription drugs, despite the low prices for some brand name ones. - John Melby, July 2, 2003 [Buckeye Institute]

    * Gore Endorses Canada's Medical System
    - William L. Anderson, November 29, 2002 [Mises]

    * How Good is Canadian Health Care?
    - August 2002 [Fraser Institute]

    * Canadian Health-Care System Is No Model for Prescription Drug Reform
    - May 1, 2001 [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]

    * The Ghost of America's Health Care Future Lives in Canada Today
    - James Frogue and Robert Moffit, December 25, 2000 [Capitalism Magazine]

    * Socialized Medicine: The Canadian Experience
    Explores several lessons that can be drawn from the Canadian experience with socialized medicine:
    o Socialized medicine, although of poor quality, is very expensive;
    o Political compromise is the result;
    o Socialized medicine is both a consequence and a great contributor to the idea that economic conditions should be equalized by coercion. - Pierre Lemieux [The Freeman]

    * Canadian Health Care
    ...if Canadians knew as much as they think they do about the economic and moral workings of Medicare, they might not be as enthusiastic as they are about their cherished right to 'free' health care. - Andrei Kreptul, August 30, 2000 [Mises]

    * When Patients Become Victims - The Crime of Government-Run Health Care
    - Merrill Matthews Jr., Ph.D. and Kerri Houston, May 1, 2000 (PDF format)

    * Socialized Medicine Leaves a Bad Taste in Patients' Mouths
    - Lawrence W. Reed, February 23, 2000 [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]

    * Canadians Dissatisfied With Socialized Medicine
    - January 26, 2000 [NCPA]

    * Memo to Al Gore: Canadian Medicine Isn't Cheap or Effective
    - William McArthur, former chief coroner for British Columbia, January 28, 2000

    * Loved to Death: America's Unresolved Health-Care Crisis
    As Canada's national government slashes spending on medical care in order to reduce the deficit, local provinces are reducing medical staff. In Ontario, pregnant women are being sent to Detroit because no obstetricians are available. Specialists of all kinds are in short supply. Patients have to wait eight weeks for an MRI, ten weeks for referral to a specialist, and four months for heart bypass surgery. - Michael J. Hurd, November 1997 [Liberty Haven]

    * Is Canadian Health care a Good Model for the U.S. to Follow?
    - Michael Walker, August 1994 [Liberty Haven]

    * Health of the State (commentary by a cancer survivor)
    I tell you this not to alarm you, to elicit sympathy, or to bore you. I tell you because the episode has been, for me, a salutary lesson (just in case I needed one) in why the government should not be allowed anywhere near a syringe, a dressing, a scalpel, an oxygen mask, a tissue sample — anything to do with health.

    * Michigan Shouldn't Copy Canada's Health System
    - Lawrence W. Reed, July 29, 1991 [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]
    The Historic PES Legend

  14. What does posting a bunch of sensationalist headlines prove?

    Lets look at what the New york times has to say about that whole non regulation thing you like so much:

    Cleanup Costs and Lawsuits Rattle BP’s Investors

    S.E.C. Is Said to Seek to Bar Wall St. Financier

    U.S. Opens Criminal Inquiry Into Oil Spill

    At Co-op City, Trash Piles Up as Workers Go on Strike

    Big Setback for A.I.G. in Repaying Taxpayers

    Well looking at this we can easily conclude that capitalism is a failed system right? No? Oh wait thats because papers produce sensationalist titles and politically skewed views to make money? I think so...

    ...and as I have mentioned on Obama previously, he had a campaign promise to reform health insurance, and was voted, by the citizens of the United States, to be our president. If you think the majority of americans do not want health reform, you might be getting your news from a skewed source.
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    What does posting a bunch of sensationalist headlines prove?

    Lets look at what the New york times has to say about that whole non regulation thing you like so much:

    Cleanup Costs and Lawsuits Rattle BP’s Investors

    S.E.C. Is Said to Seek to Bar Wall St. Financier

    U.S. Opens Criminal Inquiry Into Oil Spill

    At Co-op City, Trash Piles Up as Workers Go on Strike

    Big Setback for A.I.G. in Repaying Taxpayers

    Well looking at this we can easily conclude that capitalism is a failed system right? No? Oh wait thats because papers produce sensationalist titles and politically skewed views to make money? I think so...

    ...and as I have mentioned on Obama previously, he had a campaign promise to reform health insurance, and was voted, by the citizens of the United States, to be our president. If you think the majority of americans do not want health reform, you might be getting your news from a skewed source.
    Ah, I like that.. typ lib mentality... throw a red herring, then pass of the argument as being skewed. Funny you dont look at where the stories are from, or lookup the stories themselves... most are from you little socialist media.

    I do like your red herring of BP though... way to sidestep.
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  16. Am I racist as well? Might as well throw all the rules for radicals in there.
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Ah, I like that.. typ lib mentality... throw a red herring, then pass of the argument as being skewed. Funny you dont look at where the stories are from, or lookup the stories themselves... most are from you little socialist media.

    I do like your red herring of BP though... way to sidestep.
    It wasn't a side step, it was a point. For every source you post about disadvantages, I can find one of an advantage. I can honestly gather 1 million headlines and articles proclaiming Obama to be a great president, it wouldnt say anything of America's views, because I can probably also find a ton of headlines claiming bush to be a great president (). Providing headlines wont do anything to sway me, and since we are going with the "type lib mentality" and "little socialist media" type comments, I will gladly point out that as a typical right wing conserv, your a fan of sensationalism rather then fact checking.
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  18. Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    It wasn't a side step, it was a point. For every source you post about disadvantages, I can find one of an advantage. I can honestly gather 1 million headlines and articles proclaiming Obama to be a great president, it wouldnt say anything of America's views, because I can probably also find a ton of headlines claiming bush to be a great president (). Providing headlines wont do anything to sway me, and since we are going with the "type lib mentality" and "little socialist media" type comments, I will gladly point out that as a typical right wing conserv, your a fan of sensationalism rather then fact checking.
    I am a Conserv... but you are mistaken... Libertarian Conservative. So, strike 1. I fact check anything I convey, and socialist health care in America is a terrible idea.. in fact we have already done a dry run with medicare, medicaid, and lets not forget the ever so wonderful subsidized HMOs. In every facet of health care besides being unsocialized, America is on the bleed edge of saving lives. If people do not make enough money, there is the Medi programs (Well, that was before it was hacked and slashed). And if someone didn't want to buy insurance instead, that is one of the rights of freedom.
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  19. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I am a Conserv... but you are mistaken... Libertarian Conservative. So, strike 1. I fact check anything I convey, and socialist health care in America is a terrible idea.. in fact we have already done a dry run with medicare, medicaid, and lets not forget the ever so wonderful subsidized HMOs. In every facet of health care besides being unsocialized, America is on the bleed edge of saving lives. If people do not make enough money, there is the Medi programs (Well, that was before it was hacked and slashed). And if someone didn't want to buy insurance instead, that is one of the rights of freedom.
    Alright lets agree to disagree, I can't keep having this argument over and over and over.
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Alright lets agree to disagree, I can't keep having this argument over and over and over.
    But we will! We are both pretty opinionated, and we will both be at the same topic yet again next time it is brought up. Until next time kids.
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  21. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    But we will! We are both pretty opinionated, and we will both be at the same topic yet again next time it is brought up. Until next time kids.
    Lol ain't that the truth.
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  22. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    ...and as I have mentioned on Obama previously, he had a campaign promise to reform health insurance, and was voted, by the citizens of the United States, to be our president. If you think the majority of americans do not want health reform, you might be getting your news from a skewed source.
    Americans did and still do want health care reform, but what we want addressed are the actual costs. We don't want to see money shuffled around so that more in taxes is collected to just pay for other peoples care while still doing absolutely 0 to lower the cost of care which is what this bill does. This bill just continues to take us further and further down the road towards insolvency as a country by continuing to raise our deficit.
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  23. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Americans did and still do want health care reform, but what we want addressed are the actual costs. We don't want to see money shuffled around so that more in taxes is collected to just pay for other peoples care while still doing absolutely 0 to lower the cost of care which is what this bill does. This bill just continues to take us further and further down the road towards insolvency as a country by continuing to raise our deficit.
    Like I said, I am letting this thread die. On a final statement towards your argument, If we are going to cry deficit, why dont we discuss the cost of war we were rushed into? The original Obama-Biden plan used for campaigning discussed a public option. The American people voted for them.
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  24. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Like I said, I am letting this thread die. On a final statement towards your argument, If we are going to cry deficit, why dont we discuss the cost of war we were rushed into? The original Obama-Biden plan used for campaigning discussed a public option. The American people voted for them.
    Feel free to start a thread on the war, but this was about healthcare. All you've done the whole thread is ignore the actual monetary issues and stated how much better it is elsewhere, and how it "should be" here in the US so you dropping it isn't a loss.
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  25. Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Like I said, I am letting this thread die.
    You seem to be the only one on these forums that just cant let it go. I will never agree with you. Enjoy your opinion and I will enjoy mine.
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  26. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    Again, the costs of health care have not been addressed, which is what the public was actually concerned about. Do people feel sad that people choose to not buy insurance and instead use their money for cigarettes, beer, rims, etc? No, not really. But that was the primary thing this bill addressed, while allowing for insurance companies to make a higher profit than they currently do. So mostly this creates a huge bureaucracy extension (15,000 IRS agents alone) with limited value, while raising deficit. Bravo if you can find any way to be supportive of that.
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  27. Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    You seem to be the only one on these forums that just cant let it go. I will never agree with you. Enjoy your opinion and I will enjoy mine.
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  28. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    I'm not sure exactly when you became a mod, or became the arbiter of what conversations people are having in threads not started by you, but I guess you must be pretty excited about it?
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  29. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'm not sure exactly when you became a mod, or became the arbiter of what conversations people are having in threads not started by you, but I guess you must be pretty excited about it?
    Oh im sorry, you must not have been addressing me then, carry on.
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  30. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Oh im sorry, you must not have been addressing me then, carry on.
    Its pretty comical how for having said leaving the thread a good 3 or 4 times, you still keep returning to it.
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