Health DEFORM what it costs YOU!

[MrKleen73]

No tax increases huh? Welcome to the New Socialist America...

Starting in 2011 (next year folks) your W 2 tax form sent by your employer will be increased to show the value of what ever health insurance you are given by the company. It does not matter if that's a private
concern or governmental body of some sort. If you're retired ? So what; your gross will go up by the amount of insurance you get.

The dollar value (cost of what the company pays for your insurance) will be considered income and added to your gross pay. You will be taxed on the total You will be required to pay taxes on a large sum of money that you have never seen. Take your tax form you just finished and see what $15,000 or $20,000 additional gross does to your tax debt. That's what you'll pay next year.

For many it also puts you into a new higher bracket so it's even worse. This is how the government is going to buy insurance for 15 % that don't have insurance and it's only part of the tax increases.

Not believing this I researched the summaries and here's what I'm reading:

On page 25 of 29 : TITLE IX REVENUE PROVISIONS- SUBTITLE A: REVENUE OFFSET

PROVISIONS-(sec 9001 , as modified by sec. 10901)

Sec.9002. "requires employers to include in the W-2 form of each employee
the aggregate cost of applicable employer sponsored group health coverage "that is excludable from the employees gross income."

Joan Pryde is the senior tax editor for the Kiplinger New Letters. Go to Kiplingers and read about 13 tax changes that could affect you. Number 3 is What I just told you about.

Why am I arming you with tis information in hopes that you will spread the word to the idealistic people who don't realize what this program is going to cause on our economy. People have the right to know the truth because an election is coming in November

On average the company portion of your health benefits are $400-$600 a month, so going with a median of $500 per month that is $6000 a year the average to income ranges especially in two income homes is going to fall in the $34,000-%82,400, and 82,400-$171,850 those tax brackets are respectively 25% and 28%. What that means to you is, your taxes have been increased by $1500, and $1648 a year without a "tax increase" talk about creative. You live paycheck to paycheck, and now over $100 a month is missing? There went your budget. There goes the economy again too. Consumer spending will go down, creditors of non essential bills will not be paid, starting the exact same loop of credit based economical failure that we are supposedly coming out of now.

Imagine being the single mom with a few kids, making 34,500 a year and barely making it, all the suddenly the government comes in grabs your purse and steals $125.00 a month from you to pay for people who didn't do what it takes to get a job and take care of there own self. Yet now you can't pay your bills and you don't qualify for any government aid. Fan-fricken-tastic!

 

[HereToStudy]

(Health Insurance Agent Here)

This is for Cadillac plans, which I don't know what companies you guys work for, but most do NOT have a cadillac plan. They want to impose a 40 percent tax on the portion of insurance premiums exceeding $8,500 a year for individuals and $23,000 a year for family plans. My dad has a Cadillac plan, and will be stuck with the tax, however, he is recieving insurance that has a $0 copay, a 0% co-insurance, and an extremely low yearly deductible, with a lifetime benefit that is fairly high. For example, I got prescription, brand new PRADA sunglasses for $0. This is a cadillac plan.

Take your tax form you just finished and see what $15,000 or $20,000 additional gross does to your tax debt. That's what you'll pay next year.

I know of very little people who receive that much in health benefit from thier employer.

 

[EasyEJL]

This is for Cadillac plans, which I don't know what companies you guys work for, but most do NOT have a cadillac plan.

Funny enough, most public service employees as well as most union members do.

 

[HereToStudy]

Funny enough, most public service employees as well as most union members do.

At a cost of 8,500 individual and 23,000 family? That seems a bit drastic, and I am familiar with both parties having better plans, but not necessarily cadilac, by govt. definition. Also have had union positions.

For the record I dont support this tax as a means to support health care.

 

[MrKleen73]

At a cost of 8,500 individual and 23,000 family? That seems a bit drastic, and I am familiar with both parties having better plans, but not necessarily cadilac, by govt. definition. Also have had union positions.

For the record I dont support this tax as a means to support health care.

So you are saying that the typical person who is getting $600 a month in benefits is not going to be taxed on it?

 

[HereToStudy]

*As far as we are informed in the industry as of now.

One thing I will note with ^ is that the industry is spinning heads over this just as much as the politicians, so the exact details are unclear. But as far as I am informed, this will only effect an individual of 8,500 or more, which the 600$ a month would be 7200. So no, this would not effect them. I am pretty sure on this since from the begining the tax issues were targeting the highest class policies only.

 

[MrKleen73]

We shall see. I hope you are correct.

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

If heretostudy is correct I'm in the clear. $13,000 family. But didnt union employees get a bye on this even if they have a cadillac plan?

 

[HereToStudy]

If heretostudy is correct I'm in the clear. $13,000 family. But didnt union employees get a bye on this even if they have a cadillac plan?

Yea as I am sure most people here will be. Cadillac plans are quite pricey, but very nice to have.

 

[MrKleen73]

I pay out the wazoo for my plan to be almost cadillac. More like a Chevy with rims but whatever... LOL

 

[Jayhawkk]

**** it, i'll just drop health care and visit a free clinic...

 

[EasyEJL]

If heretostudy is correct I'm in the clear. $13,000 family. But didnt union employees get a bye on this even if they have a cadillac plan?

but its not about what you pay, its about what you and the employer pay together.

 

[Jayhawkk]

It's about people who don't have a job or have health insurance believing that having it means you can just run to the doctors any time you get a sniffle and you're taken care of. My girlfriend pays more for BC pills than an out of work mom of 3 living in the projects and she has health insurance.

 

[Zero V]

I think our entire "medical" system needs fixed...

Its all one big shark business. And I have a slight "survival of the fittest" attitude. But not in weakness, but in uselessness...such said people who wont work, etc. I have crap insurance, and pay when I need to go.

 

[HereToStudy]

I think our entire "medical" system needs fixed...

Couldnt have said it better myself. Although i do believe insurance reform is needed, the entire system needa an overhaul, from differentiated pricing, to expensive prescriptions, to insurance, its all one big shark infested water and your forced into into it if your health is in need of help.

 

[EasyEJL]

Couldnt have said it better myself. Although i do believe insurance reform is needed, the entire system needa an overhaul, from differentiated pricing, to expensive prescriptions, to insurance, its all one big shark infested water and your forced into into it if your health is in need of help.

Yes, and the health deform bill addressed none of that. Effectively it gave a bailout to the insurance companies (as the 10% of people in the US didn't have insurance before), while allowing them to make more profit than they currently do (up to 20% in "administrative" costs where most of the big groups currently have 6-8% admin costs) and no provisions to cap actual rates, just capping the difference between highest risk and lowest risk groups.

Without addressing the cost of procedures, the unnecessary procedures run as malpractice lawsuit preventative measures and the huge cost of malpractice overall this bill accomplished pretty well the reverse of what the PR about it said.

 

[HereToStudy]

Yes, and the health deform bill addressed none of that. Effectively it gave a bailout to the insurance companies (as the 10% of people in the US didn't have insurance before), while allowing them to make more profit than they currently do (up to 20% in "administrative" costs where most of the big groups currently have 6-8% admin costs) and no provisions to cap actual rates, just capping the difference between highest risk and lowest risk groups.

Where are you sourcing this from?

With the bill as it is now, there will be alot of hell for the actual insurance companies, and it is far from considered a "bailout." The requirement to carry insurance was a failed attempt at making people get insurance, and I can give you a perfect example of why, and this is coming strait from talks with contacts working for the national carriers:

Assume a man goes into an insurance agency for health insurance, and wants a cadillac plan. He would like a $0 deductible, 100% co-insurance coverage, the works... Unfortunately, he is quoted at 650$ a month, and tells the agent to **** off.

Now if he took that plan, it would cost him 7,800$. Pretty damn expensive. So for now, he will take the tax penalty (which is in 700 range, but for sake of example and so I dont get called out understating it, we will say its 800). Which would be the equivalent of 66.67 a month, which even the low end plans most likely would not be that low.

Now say something happens to him. He is waiting for an ambulance that his wife called for. It appears he has had a heart attack. As the ambulance is on its way, she calls and signs him up for that health insurance plan, with an immediate effective date and pays the company the $1200 a month, the increased price as determined by the underwriter.. He will now have his ambulance covered, his E.R. visit covered, any testing/medication covered, and a admittance into the hospital covered. Oh, and even if he spends the next 20 years in that hospital, there is no lifetime cap on the plan, so the family will happily pay the $1200 premium monthly, as thier hospital bill will be that or more a day.

This example passes easily through the law and demonstrates the short comings of the health plan. This is hardly a bailout for them. They wouldn't be as angered by it if it was.

 

[EasyEJL]

Where are you sourcing this from?

With the bill as it is now, there will be alot of hell for the actual insurance companies, and it is far from considered a "bailout." The requirement to carry insurance was a failed attempt at making people get insurance, and I can give you a perfect example of why, and this is coming strait from talks with contacts working for the national carriers:



This example passes easily through the law and demonstrates the short comings of the health plan. This is hardly a bailout for them. They wouldn't be as angered by it if it was.

it is a bailout for them. The fact that they whine about it doesn't change anything. They are complaining about losing control over what they do as a business. They don't want to have to just accept anyone, and they don't want to have to only charge the highest risk group no more than X% of the lowest risk group. They don't want to have to charge women the same as men because women's preventative and normal testing/care costs them significantly more money each year than men. They've structured their rates + tiers the way they wanted to and yet are being told they have to change it for emotional reasons, not sensible factual data based reasons.

Average overhead among private U.S. insurers was 11.7 percent, compared with 1.3 percent for Canada’s single-payer system and 3.6 percent for Medicare. Streamlined to Canadian levels, enough administrative waste could be saved to provide compressive health insurance to all Americans

http://www.pnhp.org/single_payer_resources/administrative_waste_consumes_31_percent_of_health_spending.php

But the health reform act allows up to 20% on administrative costs.... So you've given insurance companies 10% more of new accounts with them having no acquisition costs, and told them on average they could have an 8% higher profit. Combine this with them not being allowed to refuse to write a policy and what do you get? Significantly higher premiums for everyone.

All the data above comes from factual statistical data, I can find the driblets for you one at a time.

So please explain where there is hell for insurance companies? Sure they have to change the way their arcturial tables are set, and change their tiers and groupings, but they are getting new customers for nothing, and allowed to charge even more for insurance.

 

[EasyEJL]

And FYI, single ridiculous made up arguments don't prove anything, and regardless of details you can't set up a new health insurance plan in the 10 minutes waiting for an ambulance

 

[HereToStudy]

And FYI, single ridiculous made up arguments don't prove anything, and regardless of details you can't set up a new health insurance plan in the 10 minutes waiting for an ambulance

This is coming strait from the companies themselves. I didn't make up this example. This is clearly not a bailout, and I won't ever agree to it being one. If this was a walk in the park for them there wouldn't be any opposition from them, plain an simple.

With the exception of Blue Cross, who implemented a waiting period previous to an effective date one can apply for, and did this after the passing of health reform, all other carriers (and I am speaking of the IL market) still allow for an immediate effective date. With that date, you get a conditional receipt of insurance, which basically states, if underwriting goes longer then the begining of the effective date, anything that would have been covered will be upon approval of the policy. So in the previous example, even though the policy wouldnt be approved "in 10 minutes," as soon as the policy is requested, anything occuring after that will be covered, no matter if the account is still awaiting approval. Since there is no chance of the company giving an account a denial, then it WILL be covered.

As I stated earlier, I work in health insurance, please don't argue with me how it works unless you do as well.

 

[HereToStudy]

...and your website is calling for a socialized system similar to Canada, since this is exactly what I want, then I assume we are not in disagreement?

 

[EasyEJL]

Again, a single made up argument no matter who makes it up may have emotional impact, but that doesn't mean it has significant cost impact, or will be even a tiny minority of the cases that occur.

For someone who works in health insurance, you apparently don't understand the way this bill affects health insurance companies as a business. I suppose if you are involved more in sales than accounting, that would make some sense at least. Similarly no surprise that our Secretary of Treasury had no idea how self employment taxes worked. Just working in an industry doesn't give you exclusive knowledge to how the accounting and business side of it work. Again, the insurance companies aren't resistive because it will cost them money, but because it will cost them a hassle of redoing systems internally, and reshuffling how they do the math on all of the different tiers. All this bill will do is raise the cost of insurance for everyone who isn't receiving the government rebates. Again, work with the accounting math - if there is space for the insurance companies to charge more than they do now why do they even care if someone applies for that insurance today? Whatever his costs are will still be passed along to everyone else paying for insurance, and the insurance company can still nearly double their profit margin. So again, where does any of this create hell for insurance companies other than being forced to change their internal calculations?

Related, the reason why Geico can say "Allstate insured people who switched to Geico saved an average of $352 a year" and Allstate can say "Geico insured people who switched to Allstate saved an average of $416 a year" is because their risk tables are set up differently, and each has different tiers and risk groups. So neither are lying, but it may be that Geico's tables are slightly preferable for single people driving older cars, and Allstate's are for married people who own a house. Would either of them be happy with being told by the government how they had to organize and separate those tiers? No, because it then becomes harder and harder for them to differentiate themselves from the competition.

 

[HereToStudy]

Im not even continuing with this argument. Any reform that affects an industry will effect obviously cost them money for administrative changes. Do I agree with the rise in administrative costs allocated? No, but do I not agree with the state of health care currently, so the point is moot. You can keep thinking this was a big bailout, ill keep thinking in the reality of the situation. Unfortunately we wont see the direct results of what happens until 2014, so arguing how it will affect the industry is moot as well. But hey next time I am sitting to dinner with Humana or Blue Cross and they are shooting my ears off about how this socialist bastard pig will destroy thier industry, or that they are explaining that profit analysis means they are going to have to pull out of certain markets (this does happen - Unicare has pulled out of the IL market for profitability issues), ill remind them that this is a big bailout and we will pop a bottle of Don P together.

 

[Zero V]

Insurance used to be a system of protection where in a group of men would pull together a pot of money that would be used in case of an unforeseen event happening to one of them....it was NOT a business.

Then some bastards seen the easy way to take advantage of this, and to play on peoples fears...

I seen a alot of people filing petitions lately about this healthcare plan.

Honestly I dont know. I have mixed feelings, but overall I want to know why hospitals justify the cost of the crap they pull, and why medical corporations are allowed to string along peoples lives for money. I dont give a crap how much effort you put into it, no one deserves to drive a lambo at the cost of thousands of lives who could not afford a drug that would have saved them.

Why the hell does it cost 10 grand to have a baby? Honestly its wrong. I am planning on doing a midwife birthing when I have a wife. Worked for 4,000 years, I am sure God will let it work now.

The medical field pisses me off to no extent. Greedy bastards, half of which nowadays are foreign and damn near retarded and incompetent. Go back to habgabastan, you cant even understand me describing my damn problems then you send me to another doctor to figure out whats wrong.

The only benefit is cute nurses which I enjoyed last Wednesday when I was in the hospital. Thank God I had insurance, because this time they didnt tell me to F*** off and throw me out like last time when I didnt have insurance.

 

[votum]

**** it, i'll just drop health care and visit a free clinic...

I thought one of the provisions of the bill was to require people who make X amount of money to pay for insurance, and if they don't, they get fined at tax time?

I am 22, and in the Army National Guard. I spend a ton of time on active duty, so much so that I have not purchased health insurance ever, and don't plan on it until I am 30+

Will this effect the military? I am sure the military has what constitutes a cadillac plan, as I have never paid for anything ever and never will while on active duty.

This health bill was just done up all wrong...it needs to be more like Canada or Australia to ever work...

You can't half-socialize healthcare...they are requiring 100% of us to have healthcare, but they are leaving the cost regulation in the hands of private companies...which means insurance companies could very well destroy everything

What we need is either 100% public healthcare, or a 50/50 deal where we have an option of private or public companies. This way they private companies will be forced to compete.

And the Government also needs to regulate the cost of medication and doctors as well if this ever has a hope of working...

 

[EasyEJL]

And the Government also needs to regulate the cost of medication and doctors as well if this ever has a hope of working...

which is totally ridiculous, and against the american way of life. Telling a manufacturer what he call sell his product for (when he has to spend hundreds of millions on getting government approval to sell it) will only crush new drug development, and telling our highest educated and most important professionals how much they can make is no better. Socialism or communism is what that points to as then what industry becomes next? Food and farming? then transportation, etc.

 

[Zero V]

which is totally ridiculous, and against the american way of life. Telling a manufacturer what he call sell his product for (when he has to spend hundreds of millions on getting government approval to sell it) will only crush new drug development, and telling our highest educated and most important professionals how much they can make is no better. Socialism or communism is what that points to as then what industry becomes next? Food and farming? then transportation, etc.

I cannot justify a company gouging for a substance that is supposed to save lives. People die for their buck. At that point, I see them as criminals, and would treat them as such.

And honestly, many cures get overlooked because there is no money in them. These big drug companies pass up plenty of research that has shown cheaper and effective routes of dealing with some medical conditions, and will even speak out against it because it provides no real profit. That is ALL they care about.

Why cant we stop waging war, and just dedicate 1/10th of the budget we waste blowing up Iraqi kids, and instead run a research program for cures. By the public money, therefore owned by the public, and therefore not gouged, patented, etc. Its always nice when someone in the hospital is told

"There is a drug to save you, but your insurance doesnt cover it, and its 400 bucks per pill. You need 2 of them a day for 3 months. Sorry, enjoy going off to die!"

One of my old bosses who got MERCA had great insurance, and even then he had these pills that cost him 90 bucks a pill he had to pay for, 3 a day, for weeks on end...

Screw Capitalism, it breeds demons and dogs. Everyone supports it only because of making $$$, and $$$ is the reason America is so F**ed up. Its focused on too much. Capitalism allows the wicked to crush the weak, and call it "fair market". Walmart, Krogers, big pharma companies, etc have proven capitalism does not work. When things get to this scale of size, they utterly destroy the free market.

So before using their rights to ripping people off and letting people die just because this country is a Capitalistic nation(definitely not democracy anymore). Think what a man is obligated to do for his brethren.

Wait...forgot, in America its slit whoever the hell gets in your ways throat, then kill his kids in front of him, and beat his wife all while he dies...metaphorically speaking. There is a reason many societies are starting to look down upon us, and its not waging war. And its not envy. Americans are useless in the modern world for the most part.

 

[Zero V]

which is totally ridiculous, and against the american way of life. Telling a manufacturer what he call sell his product for (when he has to spend hundreds of millions on getting government approval to sell it) will only crush new drug development, and telling our highest educated and most important professionals how much they can make is no better. Socialism or communism is what that points to as then what industry becomes next? Food and farming? then transportation, etc.

I cannot justify a company gouging for a substance that is supposed to save lives. People die for their buck. At that point, I see them as criminals, and would treat them as such.

And honestly, many cures get overlooked because there is no money in them. These big drug companies pass up plenty of research that has shown cheaper and effective routes of dealing with some medical conditions, and will even speak out against it because it provides no real profit. That is ALL they care about.

Why cant we stop waging war, and just dedicate 1/10th of the budget we waste blowing up Iraqi kids, and instead run a research program for cures. By the public money, therefore owned by the public, and therefore not gouged, patented, etc. Its always nice when someone in the hospital is told

"There is a drug to save you, but your insurance doesnt cover it, and its 400 bucks per pill. You need 2 of them a day for 3 months. Sorry, enjoy going off to die!"

One of my old bosses who got MERCA had great insurance, and even then he had these pills that cost him 90 bucks a pill he had to pay for, 3 a day, for weeks on end...

Screw Capitalism, it breeds demons and dogs. Everyone supports it only because of making $$$, and $$$ is the reason America is so F**ed up. Its focused on too much. Capitalism allows the wicked to crush the weak, and call it "fair market". Walmart, Krogers, big pharma companies, etc have proven capitalism does not work. When things get to this scale of size, they utterly destroy the free market.

So before using their rights to ripping people off and letting people die just because this country is a Capitalistic nation(definitely not democracy anymore). Think what a man is obligated to do for his brethren.

Wait...forgot, in America its slit whoever the hell gets in your ways throat, then kill his kids in front of him, and beat his wife all while he dies...metaphorically speaking. There is a reason many societies are starting to look down upon us, and its not waging war. And its not envy. Americans are useless in the modern world for the most part.

 

[HereToStudy]

Thank you Votum and Zero, I tried to rep you both, but apparently I repp'd Votum too recently.

My problem with this whole ordeal is simply that a decision of keeping someone alive should not come down to cost analysis.

 

[EasyEJL]

Thank you Votum and Zero, I tried to rep you both, but apparently I repp'd Votum too recently.

My problem with this whole ordeal is simply that a decision of keeping someone alive should not come down to cost analysis.

But it always does, whether in socialized medicine or not. There becomes a point where the cost of further treatment is prohibitive to buy the person another small amount of time. Most of the fine european socialized medicine countries have set a guideline of not delivering or resuscitating babies born prematurely anywhere from 22 weeks to 24 weeks depending on country because the cost is too high, with odds of survival low and future health problems likely. Multimillions to get the child to just their 40 week term. Heck, even simpler whether a person can stay hospitalized in socialized medicine is based on the cost of the bed since the government only provides x number of beds. Someone worse off than you comes in, you get discharged.

And Zero V is crazy, but anyone who has been here any length of time knows that

 

[HereToStudy]

And Zero V is crazy, but anyone who has been here any length of time knows that

We dont see eye to eye on religion, and for the most part I still support capitalism, but in my eyes he is spot on with his views of the industry.

 

[Zero V]

But it always does, whether in socialized medicine or not. There becomes a point where the cost of further treatment is prohibitive to buy the person another small amount of time. Most of the fine european socialized medicine countries have set a guideline of not delivering or resuscitating babies born prematurely anywhere from 22 weeks to 24 weeks depending on country because the cost is too high, with odds of survival low and future health problems likely. Multimillions to get the child to just their 40 week term. Heck, even simpler whether a person can stay hospitalized in socialized medicine is based on the cost of the bed since the government only provides x number of beds. Someone worse off than you comes in, you get discharged.

And Zero V is crazy, but anyone who has been here any length of time knows that

The whole "cost to save" issue is whats BS though. Some of these drugs they charge insane prices for can easily be mass produced hence why generic brans can be dirt cheap like 4 bucks for an RX and be sold cheap. But due to having patents, they are allowed to make billions first, what is the length of time it takes 10 years before another can make it? So the REAL cost of survival is not high at all, its just not a profit. Also lets start fixing the causes of problems shall we?

Burn down all fast food joints, ban the use of chemicals such as acetame,msg, etc in foods. Ban the use of hormones and antibiotics in foods. And so on. People lived fine until they came along, they could do fine without. But no today we consider it a personal freedom for some fat useless idiot to eat 4 baconaters because its his right to choose to do so. I think Osama bin laden is alive and he runs our fast food chains. Perfect terrorism.

Of course trying to get rid of everything that is likely causing our genetic material to unravel and degrade with each generation, is not an important thing at all. At least not of $$$ is involved and fat people.

I really dont care if its all around. I am just stating some points. Our society is set up to eat people alive, and then live off their walking corpse.

 

[HereToStudy]

I think Osama bin laden is alive and he runs our fast food chains. Perfect terrorism.

...






















:bigeyes:

 

[Zero V]

...



:bigeyes:

You know that new double down is an attempt to wipe out Americans :sgrin::lol:

Note "I have dry sarcasm that is sometimes hard to pick up"

 

[EasyEJL]

The whole "cost to save" issue is whats BS though. Some of these drugs they charge insane prices for can easily be mass produced hence why generic brans can be dirt cheap like 4 bucks for an RX and be sold cheap. But due to having patents, they are allowed to make billions first, what is the length of time it takes 10 years before another can make it? So the REAL cost of survival is not high at all, its just not a profit. Also lets start fixing the causes of problems shall we?

So lets see, what you are suggesting is that people like you and me invest in companies so they have money to do research into drugs, spend all the millions to get FDA approval, and then should sell them for cost? Do you expect drug researchers to be volunteers too? And the equipment manufacturers that make it shouldn't make a profit either, and probably the guys on the production line shouldn't get paid either.

Whats next food? transportation? Housing? Why should anyone have to pay for food? Cost of food is causing starvation + death too right here in the US. People can't get jobs because they don't have transportation so why shouldn't they be given it? People are homeless, why should they potentially die due to lack of a home? Name any portion of anything that you can't use that same flawed logic to. All you are pointing down is the road to socialism/communism, which comically in the end has everyone but the elites living a lower standard of living.

 

[HereToStudy]

So lets see, what you are suggesting is that people like you and me invest in companies so they have money to do research into drugs, spend all the millions to get FDA approval, and then should sell them for cost? Do you expect drug researchers to be volunteers too? And the equipment manufacturers that make it shouldn't make a profit either, and probably the guys on the production line shouldn't get paid either.

Whats next food? transportation? Housing? Why should anyone have to pay for food? Cost of food is causing starvation + death too right here in the US. People can't get jobs because they don't have transportation so why shouldn't they be given it? People are homeless, why should they potentially die due to lack of a home? Name any portion of anything that you can't use that same flawed logic to. All you are pointing down is the road to socialism/communism, which comically in the end has everyone but the elites living a lower standard of living.

Food, Transportation, and housing are all price competitive markets. Cost is a major major factor in the consumer purchasing decisions. Health Care simply does not give any competition, prices are set, pay up or die.

 

[EasyEJL]

Food, Transportation, and housing are all price competitive markets. Cost is a major major factor in the consumer purchasing decisions. Health Care simply does not give any competition, prices are set, pay up or die.

Its kind of funny, again none of what is in the healthcare bill does a single drop to address that.

Thats only because of the way insurance has been structured. Remove insurance from the picture entirely, or only have heavy catastrophic insurance. When people have to pay for preventative, well care and day to day prescriptions out of their pockets, then the market becomes competitive again.

If you go back to pre-WWII, most health insurance was just that, heavy catastrophic insurance with you paying for the care you use and you paid for the insurance yourself. When there was a government forced wage freeze in WWII, employers began trying to find sneaky ways to add more compensation and covering health insurance was one of those ways.

 

[votum]

But it always does, whether in socialized medicine or not. There becomes a point where the cost of further treatment is prohibitive to buy the person another small amount of time. Most of the fine european socialized medicine countries have set a guideline of not delivering or resuscitating babies born prematurely anywhere from 22 weeks to 24 weeks depending on country because the cost is too high, with odds of survival low and future health problems likely. Multimillions to get the child to just their 40 week term. Heck, even simpler whether a person can stay hospitalized in socialized medicine is based on the cost of the bed since the government only provides x number of beds. Someone worse off than you comes in, you get discharged.

And Zero V is crazy, but anyone who has been here any length of time knows that

In America they deliver those babies, not to save a life but because they can put the family in debt forever and extract way more money than they would have gotten from them initially..

You do realize that this bill is Socialism right? Look at how the country has been ran the past 2 years. The government owns majority shares in several VERY large companies. This healthcare bill, where we are FORCED to purchase healthcare. Socialism will happen if we don't throw this idiot out of office.

And please please please say something about how he inherited his problems and he's doing the best he can....leaders do not inherit problems. The day he took over, those problems became his. I can understand for a few months him blaming bush, but after 2 years he hasn't done **** except spend several trillion dollars more than bush spent, digging us into a further hole. America elected a damn fool, who had 0 experience. WTF would you vote for a 1st term senator...that's like making the cashier who has been at Wal-Mart for 2 weeks the CEO. Retarded... The funny thing is the way the media spins **** these days, he'll probably get elected again somehow...

Back on topic:

You seem like you are arguing both sides of the fence, which are you on?

Health bill is 50% socialism and 50% capitalism...these two systems do not play nice together...and they can't just because of how they work, 1 is about whats mine is yours, the other is about whats mine is yours if you have the money.

I do not want a socialist nation at all, but there are some systems that need to be completely overhauled, and socialistic systems for those would work better than what we are doing now.

Healthcare Capitalism: I spend tons of money per year to pay for something that may or may not happen to me later on life. If what happens to me is very expensive, the insurance co may not even pay for it, thus stealing my money and killing me.

Healthcare Socialism: I don't spend any money, but I am taxed slightly more. I can go to the doctor when I want. Medication is free. I may have to wait in lines longer, but my healthcare just works.

Healthcare USA with new bill: I still spend tons of money each year, I am also getting taxed more. My medications still cost money, and if the medical companies want to, they can raise the prices on me.

" in USA ..... #2: I was living paycheck to paycheck. I was young and did not need health insurance. Now that to gov requires me to pay for it, I may not be able to pay rent next month.

A socialistic approach to healthcare in the us would work, but it has to be 100% socialized, not this half-ass bull**** that Obama forced through before his approval rates got any lower.

You cannot tax people, force them to pay for something they don't want or need, and then let the private companies providing the service the Government is forcing everyone to use regulate the cost. That SCREAMS lobbyists, which is one of the main reasons the US government is so messed up.

Housing market could use some socialism too...the only reason the housing market is so messed up is because of this:

Illustration: Steve lives in a dump in NY,NY. 500 square foot studio. Steve paid 50,000 for his place last year. Steve decides to move, he puts a granite countertop in his studio for 1,000 dollars. Steve buys some fancy furniture and organizes all his place well. Steve lists his house for 250,000. Steve's house sells, because some butthead with enough money bought it.

BAM EVERY 500 sq ft dump within 5 miles of steve's studio just increased in value by 200 grand.

That crap happened all over America, and when people couldn't afford it any more, credit companies gave them the loans, which obviously failed.

Sorry...endrant lol.

 

[HereToStudy]

Votum, I tend to agree very strongly with your idea of health care, but disagree on the Obama bit. Obama wanted a full public option, which was as close to socialized medicine that he thought he would ever get passed the do nothing conservatives that will play congress games with any bill he endorses. Well, couldn't even get that one through, so what we have is the half ass bill presented to us because that is all they felt they could get through. I am not a fan of the bill in its entirety, but its a step in the right direction.

But like I said, minus the fact that I about 70% endorse Obama, I agree with many of your views on health insurance and would love to see us become as socialized with medicine the majority of all other first world countries.

 

[DAdams91982]

Votum, I tend to agree very strongly with your idea of health care, but disagree on the Obama bit. Obama wanted a full public option, which was as close to socialized medicine that he thought he would ever get passed the do nothing conservatives that will play congress games with any bill he endorses. Well, couldn't even get that one through, so what we have is the half ass bill presented to us because that is all they felt they could get through. I am not a fan of the bill in its entirety, but its a step in the right direction.

But like I said, minus the fact that I about 70% endorse Obama, I agree with many of your views on health insurance and would love to see us become as socialized with medicine the majority of all other first world countries.

Thank God most in America do not agree with you.

 

[DAdams91982]

 

[DAdams91982]

For Great Britain

Great Britain's National Health Service (NHS) was created on July 5, 1948. As with all government programs, bureaucrats underestimated initial cost projections. First-year operating costs of NHS were 52 million pounds higher than original estimates1 as Britons saturated the so-called free system.

Many decades of shortages, misery and suffering followed until 1989, when some market-based health care competition was reintroduced to the British citizens2.

Unfortunately for those requiring care, a mostly socialist health care system has problems. The articles and commentaries in this section identify some disasters caused by government intervention in the British health care system.

I also recommend reading David G. Green and Laura Casper's economic report, Delay, Denial and Dilution: The Impact of NHS Rationing on Heart Disease and Cancer to see the inevitable outcome of the necessary rationing of government health care.


Straight from the newspapers

* Labour's secret plan to send overweight children to NHS fat camps
- Laura Donnelly, September 6, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

* Burnham Forgets 230,000 on List
- Macer Hall, August 14, 2009 [Daily Express (UK)]

* £1.2bn bill for the bureaucrat army within the NHS
- Jenny Hope, August 13, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]

* Couples Face an IVF Postcode Lottery
- Katherine Fenech, August 6, 2009 [Daily Express (UK)]

* Kidney cancer patients denied life-saving drugs by NHS rationing body NICE
- April 29, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]

* Girl, 3, has heart operation cancelled three times because of bed shortage
- David Rose, April 23, 2009 [Times Online]

* Number of children going to hospital to have teeth pulled soars by 66% since 1997
- Daniel Martin and Cher Thornhill, April 12, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]

* NHS 'failings' over elderly falls
- March 25, 2009 [BBC]

* Learning disabled 'failed by NHS'
- Nick Triggle, March 24, 2009 [BBC]

* Cancer survivor confronts the health secretary on 62-day wait
- Lyndsay Moss, March 21, 2009 [The Scotsman]

* Culture of targets prevents nurses from tending to patients
- Claire Rayner, President of the Patients Association, March 21, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

* Children being failed by health system, says head of watchdog
- Sarah Boseley, March 21, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]

* Our cancer shame: Survival rates still lag behind EU despite spending billions
- Jenny Hope, March 20, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

* Failing hospital 'caused deaths'
- March 17, 2009 [BBC]

* Health gap drive 'wasted money'
- Nick Triggle, March 14, 2009 [BBC]

* Longer GP opening hours branded wasteful 'PR exercise' by doctors
- Lyndsay Moss, March 13, 2009 [The Scotsman]

* "Political meddling" threatens general practice, warns GP leader
- March 13, 2009 [Management in Practice (UK)]

* Children at risk through lack of training for doctors and nurses, report warns
- Rebecca Smith, March 13, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

* Chocolate should be taxed to control obesity epidemic, doctors are told
- Simon Johnson, March 13, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

* 1,000 villagers wait for a dentist after just one NHS practice opens
- March 10, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

* Study that proves the folly of NHS Alzheimer's drug ban
- Jenny Hope, March 7, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

* NHS charges to rise in England
- March 5, 2009 [BBC]

* Disabled children wait up to two years for wheelchairs
- March 4, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]

* NHS under fire over waiting times
- February 25, 2009 [The Scotsman]

* Government procrastination blamed for HIV-contaminated blood tragedy
- February 23, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]

* Specialist nurses 'vastly overworked'
- February 20, 2009 [Harwich & Manningtree Standard]

* Hundreds of operations cancelled at Lothian hospitals
- Adam Morris, February 19, 2009 [The Scotsman]

* Stop asking for antibiotics to cure coughs and colds, Government tells patients
- Daniel Martin, February 17, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

* Stroke services are 'UK's worst'
- February 17, 2009 [BBC]

* Hospitals curb caesarean births
- Sarah-Kate Templeton, February 15, 2009 [The Times]

* Only five out of 51 hospital trusts pass hygiene test, say inspectors
- Sarah Boseley, November 24, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

* Top doctors slam NHS drug rationing
- Sarah-Kate Templeton, August 24, 2008 [The Times]

* Heart patients dying due to poor hospital care, says report
- Sarah Boseley, June 8, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

* NHS dentistry loses almost a million patients after new dentists' contract
- David Rose, June 6, 2008 [The Times]

* Private healthcare managers could be sent to turn round failing NHS hospitals
- Philip Webster, Political Editor, and David Rose, June 4, 2008 [The Times]

* Cancer patients ‘betrayed’ by NHS
- Sarah-Kate Templeton, June 1, 2008 [The Times]

* NHS scandal: dying cancer victim was forced to pay
- Sarah-Kate Templeton, June 1, 2008 [The Times]

* Pensioner, 76, forced to pull out own teeth after 12 NHS dentists refuse to treat her
- Olinka Koster, March 26, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]

* Dental patients face care lottery
- March 26, 2008 [Metro(UK)]

* Lung patients 'condemned to death as NHS withdraws their too expensive drugs'
- Jenny Hope, March 24, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]

* Women in labour turned away by maternity units
- John Carvel, March 21, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

* Health inequality has got worse under Labour, says government report
- Andrew Sparrow, March 13, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

* Angry GPs reluctantly accept plan for weekend and evening surgeries
- John Carvel, March 7, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

* NHS chiefs tell grandmother, 61, she's 'too old' for £5,000 life-saving heart surgery
- Chris Brooke, February 28, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]

* Patient 'removed' from waiting list to meet target
- January 31, 2008 [The Scotsman]

* NHS patients told to treat themselves
- James Kirkup, January 4, 2008 [Telegraph UK]

* NHS is 'failing patients' despite record funding
- Rebecca Smith, October 4, 2007 [Telegraph UK]

* NHS rationing rife, say doctors
- September 24, 2007 [BBC]

* One in eight patients waiting over a year for treatment, admits minister
- John Carvel, June 8, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]

* Audit Office asked to investigate record £500m NHS underspend
- John Carvel, May 30, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]

* The drugs the NHS won't give you
- May 11, 2007 [Telegraph UK]

* UK lagging behind on cancer drug access, study finds
- May 10, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]

* One in six trusts is still putting patients on mixed-sex wards
- Daniel Martin, May 10, 2007 [Daily Mail(UK)]

* Specialist stroke care 'lottery'
- May 9, 2007 [BBC News]

* Smokers and the obese banned from UK hospitals
- May 2, 2007 [Healthcare News]

* Cancer patients told life-prolonging treatment is too expensive for NHS
- Lyndsay Moss, February 13, 2007 [The Scotsman]

* UK health service "harms 10 percent of patients"
- Kate Kelland, July 7, 2006 [Reuters]

* 5,000 elderly 'killed each year' by lack of care beds
- June 26, 2006 [Telegraph UK]

* Dental Socialism in Britain
- Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr., May 9, 2006 [LewRockwell.com]

* Pay for nurses and surgeons doubles NHS overspend
- Beezy Marsh, Patrick Hennessy and Nina Goswami, April 23, 2006 [Telegraph UK]

* The money addicts: it's your cash they are gambling with
- Patience Wheatcroft, April 23, 2006 [Telegraph UK]

* NHS chiefs get luxury car deals
- Daniel Foggo and Steven Swinford, April 9, 2006 [The Times]

* Secret NHS plan to ration patient care
- Nigel Hawkes, April 7, 2006 [The Times]

* British Healthcare To Be Rationed
- April 7, 2006 [United Press International]

* British body rejects EPO drugs for cancer patients
- March 17, 2006 [Reuters]

* National Health Service - Grappling with Deficits
- March 9, 2006 [Economist.com]

* Hundreds wait to register as another dentist quits the NHS
- Martin Williams, September 23, 2005 [The Herald (Scotland)]

* Life-saving cancer drugs 'kept from NHS patients by red tape'
- Sam Lister, September 20, 2005 [The Times]

* NHS slides into the red despite record increases in health care spending
- September 20, 2005 [Telegraph UK]

* Alzheimer's sufferers hit by further delay in NHS approval for vital drugs
- Michael Day, September 18, 2005 [Telegraph UK]

* We all pay a price for our 'free' NHS
- John Smith, August 19, 2005 [The Scotsman]

* 2,000 British doctors out of work
- August 14, 2005 [The Washington Times]

* UK health 'unsustainable'
- August 14, 2005 [Finance24]

* NHS faces rising bill for negligence claims
- Ben Hall, August 8, 2005 [Financial Times]

* British boy to go to India for operation
- August 5, 2005 [United Press International]

* NHS failed to stop doctor raping scores of women
- Lois Rogers and Jonathon Carr-Brown, July 31, 2005 [The Times]

* Top crimewriter funds drugs for cancer victim refused by NHS
- Martyn Halle, July 8, 2005 [Telegraph UK]

* Report says NHS is mired in huge debts
- David Simms, June 25, 2005 [ABC Money (UK)]

* U.K. set to restrict smoking
- June 21, 2005 [The Associated Press]

* NHS ‘fund bias’ against men may cost 2,500 lives a year
- Sarah-Kate Templeton, June 19, 2005 [The Times]

* Doubts on funding NHS 'monuments'
- Nicholas Timmins, June 10, 2005 [Financial Times]

* 17 million reasons why we must improve hospital meals
- June 7, 2005 [Cambridge Evening News]

* Figures show more patients waiting for operations
- June 3, 2005 [Guardian UK]

* Scarcity of NHS dental treatment is revealed
- Celia Hall, May 19, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

* Why NHS Opposes 'Treatment by Demand' for the Dying
- Stephen Howard and Jan Colley, PA, May 18, 2005 [Scotsman]

* 800 queue for NHS dentists
- May 5, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

* Hundreds more heroin addicts to be given a fix on the NHS
- Nic Fleming, April 25, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

* British health service facing nurse exodus
- April 25, 2005 [United Press International]

* About 400 patients a year in Scotland succumb to MRSA
- April 25, 2005 [Scotsman]

* NHS debts soar to over £1bn
- Karyn Miller, April 24, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

* British taxpayers foot $26.5 million bill for abortion tourists
- April 18, 2005 [Catholic World News]

* U.K. Liberal Democrats Would Raise Taxes to Pay for Health Care
- Reed Landberg, April 14, 2005 [Bloomberg]

* Number of NHS Bureaucrats 'Rising Faster Than Health Staff'
- Joe Churcher, March 22, 2005 [Scotsman]

* '£500m hole' in hospital budgets
- Celia Hall, March 21, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

* 1,000 Scots desert NHS every week
- Murdo Macleod, March 5, 2005 [Scotsman]

* British NHS facing financial crisis
- March 3, 2005 [Washington Times]

* NHS drugs regulator to withdraw approval of Alzheimer's treatment
- Nicholas Timmins, March 2, 2005 [FT.com - Financial Times]

* NHS waiting list rises
- February 11, 2005 [Guardian UK]

* Tumour patients hit by NHS shortages
- Jo Revill, February 6, 2005 [Guardian UK]

* NHS financial crises set to outlast winter
- Mike Waites, February 4, 2005 [Yorkshire Post]

* NHS 24 'priority' callers wait four hours for advice
- Caroline Wilson, January 14, 2005 [Evening Times (UK)]

* 'No strategy' on NHS waiting time
- January 14, 2005 [BBC]

* Output figures show NHS decline
- John Carvel, October 19, 2004 [Guardian UK]

* Heart patients die on waiting lists
- Peter Sharples, October 18, 2004 [Manchester Online]

* £25bn overspend feared for NHS computer network
- Karen Attwood, October 12, 2004 [telegraph.co.uk]

* Gaps in care cost £7bn, says charity
- John Carvel, October 4, 2004 [Guardian UK]

* NHS excluding poor people, UK
- September 15, 2004 [Medical News Today]

* Smokers 'should not get NHS care'
- September 6, 2004 [BBC News]

* Waiting list row blights Brighton
- John Carvel, September 4, 2004 [Guardian UK]

* Patients are denied the last rites under data protection law
- Elizabeth Day, July 25, 2004 [telegraph.co.uk]

* Shortage of dentists to double by 2011
- John Carvel, July 24, 2004 [Guardian UK]

* Britain's stiff upper lip gives way to a snarl
- Sarah Lyall, July 18, 2004 [The New York Times]

* Hospital Overcrowding A Cause of Superbug Infections
- John von Radowitz, July 1, 2004 [Scotsman.com]

* Hospital Crisis: Fallen Angels
- Lindsay Mcgarvie, May 23, 2004 [Glasgow Sunday Mail]

* Study finds British hospitals are still austere, cold, smelly and poorly maintained
- May 6, 2004 [News-Medical.net]

* Hospital bathrooms and showers: a continuing saga of inadequacy
- Andy Monro, MRCP & Graham P Mulley, DM, FRCP, May 2004 [Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine]

* Majority back public smoking ban
- March 24, 2004 [BBC]

* Discrimination Rampant In British Health Care
- Peter Moore, November 17, 2003 [365gay.com]

* PERIPATETICS—To the Medical Socialists of All Parties
- Sheldon Richman, September 2003 [FEE.org]

* Creeping Privatization?
Shortages of skilled workers, low morale, long queues for services, crumbling facilities and corrupt practises. - Roland Watson, August 6, 2001 [LewRockwell.com]

* The World's Worst HMO
- Stephen D. Moore, November 24, 1999 [Random Thoughts]

* Socialized Medicine in Great Britain: Lessons for the Oregon Health Plan
- Professor John Spiers, March 18, 1999 [Cascade Policy Institute]

* The Sickbed Which is Socialized British Medicine
- December 23, 1997 [NCPA]

* The British Way of Withholding Care
- Harry Schwarz, March 1989 [FEE.org]

 

[DAdams91982]

For Canada

Parliament unanimously passed the Canada Health Act in 1984 and established a single-payer, publicly-financed health care system. To ensure a true government monopoly (is there any other kind?) Canadian provinces outlawed private health insurance.

Chaoulli v. Quebec UPDATE (June 9, 2005): In a 4 to 3 decision, the Canadian Supreme Court struck down Quebec's law that prohibits private medical insurance.

U.S. Patients have Greater Access to Advanced Medical Technology Than Do Canadians


* Surgery postponed indefinitely for 1,000 Kelowna patients
- Cathryn Atkinson, April 8, 2008 [Globe and Mail]

* Majority of Que. dentists quit health-care system
- March 27, 2008 [CTV.ca]

* Why Ontario keeps sending patients south
- Lisa Priest, February 22, 2008 [Globe and Mail]

* Will Socialized Health Care in the US Kill Canadians?
- Don Surber, March 3, 2008 [Acton Institute]

* Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report
- October 15, 2007 [CBC News (Canada)]

* The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
- David Gratzer, Summer 2007 [City Journal]

* Cancer patients question why PET scan not covered
- May 28, 2007 [CBC News]

* BC Medical Association: Waiting Too Long for Hip and Knee Surgery Costs $10,000 Per Patient-Maximum Wait Times Should Be No Longer Than 6 Months
- June 28, 2006 [CCN Matthews]

* Ont. physician turns away patient for being 55+
- March 17, 2006 [CTV.ca]

* Canada inches toward private medicine
- Rebecca Cook Dube, August 8, 2005 [CS Monitor]

* Doctor defends private cancer clinic
- Gillian Livingston, July 15, 2005 [Canadian Press]

* Dogma trumps truth in health-care issues
- D’Arcy Jenish, July 7, 2005 [Ontario Business News]

* Why Canadians Purchase Private Health Insurance
- Walter Williams, June 20, 2005 [Capitalism Magazine]

* Doctor welcomes health ruling
- June 9, 2005 [CBC Montreal]

* Patients shouldn't wait more than 8 weeks for cardiac defibrillator: experts
- May 24, 2005 [Canadian Press]

* Grads fail to slow doctor shortage
- Jennifer O'Brien, May 21, 2005 [London Free Press]

* Free Canadian health care comes at cost
- April 10, 2005 [Arkansas Democrat-Gazette]

* Canada's drug tab reaches $22 billion, report suggests
- Sheryl Ubelacker, CP, April 6, 2005 [London Free Press]

* Canadian health care is free and first-class -- if you can wait
- Beth Duff-Brown, March 19, 2005 [The Associated Press]

* Pediatricians, parents warn of shortage of community-based care for children
- Colin Perkel, March 4, 2005 [The Canadian Press]

* Access to specialists difficult: study
- February 16, 2005 [CBC Calgary]

* Doctor shortages, frustrations vary from region to region, survey shows
- February 15, 2005 [Canada.com]

* Montreal leads the country in offering private health care
- Aaron Derfel, February 12, 2005 [Montreal Gazette]

* Canada falling short on medical imaging
- February 9, 2005 [Macleans.ca]

* Creative incentives required to retain older doctors
- Dr. Charles Shaver, January 20, 2005 [Toronto Star]

* MRI gap defies cash fix
- Mark Kennedy, January 14, 2005 [National Post (Canada)]

* A boy's plight, a nation's problem
- Lisa Priest, January 13, 2005 [The Globe and Mail]

* Where's proof private clinics cost more?
- Tom Brodbeck, December 4, 2004 [The Winnipeg Sun]

* Surgery backlog tops 5,500 at kids' hospitals; One-year waits common
- Aaron Derfel, December 3, 2004 [The Gazette (Montreal)]

* Hospital wait lists to get worse, Carriere says
- Chris Traber, November 14, 2004 [Yorkregion.com]

* Frustrated patients can't handle ER waits
- Jennifer Stewart and Jeffrey Simpson, October 28, 2004 [The Halifax Herald Limited]

* Private medical clinic opens in Montreal
...it answers, "an ever-increasing demand from the public for greater accessibility and quality of health services." - October 13, 2004 [CTV.ca]

* Canadians have higher death risk than Americans after heart attack: study
- Sheryl Ubelacker, September 20, 2004 [Canada.com]

* Canadian medical tourists in India
- Jeremy Copeland, September 20, 2004 [CBC News]

* Doctor shortage cripples Canada's free health care
- Clifford Krauss, September 18, 2004 [Minneapolis-St. Paul Star Tribune]

* Canada's Once-Proud Public Health System in Crisis
- David Ljunggren, September 14, 2004 [Reuters (Ottawa)]

* Hospitals to cut, again
- September 5, 2004 [Toronto Star]

* Canada's Medical Nightmare
- Robert J. Cihak, M.D., September 1, 2004 [Health Care News]

* Canada faces shortage of doctors
- August 19, 2004 [MSNBC]

* Canadians losing faith in health system: poll
- August 16, 2004 [CTV.ca]

* Ontario hospitals a health risk
- Michael Hurley, August 8, 2004 [Toronto Star]

* Need surgery? Here's how long you'll wait
"It's inhuman. The quality of my life is horrible and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it." - Jason Fekete, July 28, 2004 [Calgary Herald]

* Docs, nurses fed up
Canadian doctors and nurses are fed up with inter-governmental "bickering" that is dragging out wait times and causing more pain and suffering for patients. - July 28, 2004 [Winnipeg Sun]

* Free Health Care?
...in some cases, patients die on the waiting list because they become too sick to tolerate a procedure. - Walter E. Williams, July 24, 2004 [CATO]

* The truth about Canada's ailing health-care system
All the major candidates in Canada's recent national election acknowledged that the country's health-care system is failing Canadians. - Robert J. Cihak, July 13, 2004 [The Seattle Times]

* Health-care crisis looms, even with new money
Canada's health-care system is "five to 10 years" from the breaking point -- even with cash injections from government, says the new president of the B.C. Medical Association. - Doug Alexander, July 5, 2004 [Vancouver Sun]

* Emergency room delays a strong campaign factor
"Go into the emergency room — it is the most pitiful piece of work you ever seen in your life." - David Bruser, June 22, 2004 [Toronto Star]

* Canadian Health Care in Crisis
Analyst visits NC to describe how single-payer health care really works in practice. - Donna Martinez, June 17, 2004 [Carolina Journal]

* Quebec cancer patients sue over wait
Women waited months for radiation; lawsuit could cost system $50-million. - Ingrid Peritz, March 11, 2004 [The Globe and Mail]

* Health care: no waiting lists
'You get knee surgery within two days ... try and get that in human hospitals.' Canada's [private] pet health-insurance industry is projected to grow at roughly 50 per cent a year... - Robert Scalia, November 30, 2003 [Montreal Gazette]

* For some, surgery abroad a welcome answer
- Daniel Girard, November 29, 2003 [Toronto Star]

* Canadian Doctors Eyeing United States
- Clifford Krauss, October 17, 2003 [The New York Times]

* The Top Ten Things People Believe About Canadian Health Care, But Shouldn’t
- Brian Lee Crowley, October 9, 2003 [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]

* Canadians' health at risk, CMA says
- Valerie Lawton, September 26, 2003 [Toronto Star]

* Burnout is now doctors' ailment
Almost half of Canadian doctors say they're burned out, emotionally exhausted and blame medicine for putting a drain on their family life. - Karen Palmer, August 20, 2003 [Toronto Star]

* New MRI clinic in row over poaching
While she insists she's not making any money off the venture, she says it provides an income allowance for her and her husband, the other principal in the company. - Theresa Boyle and Robert Benzie, July 28, 2003 [Toronto Star]

* Price Controls and Overall Drug Spending
The Canadian system, however, tends to push up overall spending on prescription drugs, despite the low prices for some brand name ones. - John Melby, July 2, 2003 [Buckeye Institute]

* Gore Endorses Canada's Medical System
- William L. Anderson, November 29, 2002 [Mises]

* How Good is Canadian Health Care?
- August 2002 [Fraser Institute]

* Canadian Health-Care System Is No Model for Prescription Drug Reform
- May 1, 2001 [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]

* The Ghost of America's Health Care Future Lives in Canada Today
- James Frogue and Robert Moffit, December 25, 2000 [Capitalism Magazine]

* Socialized Medicine: The Canadian Experience
Explores several lessons that can be drawn from the Canadian experience with socialized medicine:
o Socialized medicine, although of poor quality, is very expensive;
o Political compromise is the result;
o Socialized medicine is both a consequence and a great contributor to the idea that economic conditions should be equalized by coercion. - Pierre Lemieux [The Freeman]

* Canadian Health Care
...if Canadians knew as much as they think they do about the economic and moral workings of Medicare, they might not be as enthusiastic as they are about their cherished right to 'free' health care. - Andrei Kreptul, August 30, 2000 [Mises]

* When Patients Become Victims - The Crime of Government-Run Health Care
- Merrill Matthews Jr., Ph.D. and Kerri Houston, May 1, 2000 (PDF format)

* Socialized Medicine Leaves a Bad Taste in Patients' Mouths
- Lawrence W. Reed, February 23, 2000 [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]

* Canadians Dissatisfied With Socialized Medicine
- January 26, 2000 [NCPA]

* Memo to Al Gore: Canadian Medicine Isn't Cheap or Effective
- William McArthur, former chief coroner for British Columbia, January 28, 2000

* Loved to Death: America's Unresolved Health-Care Crisis
As Canada's national government slashes spending on medical care in order to reduce the deficit, local provinces are reducing medical staff. In Ontario, pregnant women are being sent to Detroit because no obstetricians are available. Specialists of all kinds are in short supply. Patients have to wait eight weeks for an MRI, ten weeks for referral to a specialist, and four months for heart bypass surgery. - Michael J. Hurd, November 1997 [Liberty Haven]

* Is Canadian Health care a Good Model for the U.S. to Follow?
- Michael Walker, August 1994 [Liberty Haven]

* Health of the State (commentary by a cancer survivor)
I tell you this not to alarm you, to elicit sympathy, or to bore you. I tell you because the episode has been, for me, a salutary lesson (just in case I needed one) in why the government should not be allowed anywhere near a syringe, a dressing, a scalpel, an oxygen mask, a tissue sample — anything to do with health.

* Michigan Shouldn't Copy Canada's Health System
- Lawrence W. Reed, July 29, 1991 [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]

 

[HereToStudy]

What does posting a bunch of sensationalist headlines prove?

Lets look at what the New york times has to say about that whole non regulation thing you like so much:

Cleanup Costs and Lawsuits Rattle BP’s Investors

S.E.C. Is Said to Seek to Bar Wall St. Financier

U.S. Opens Criminal Inquiry Into Oil Spill

At Co-op City, Trash Piles Up as Workers Go on Strike

Big Setback for A.I.G. in Repaying Taxpayers

Well looking at this we can easily conclude that capitalism is a failed system right? No? Oh wait thats because papers produce sensationalist titles and politically skewed views to make money? I think so...

...and as I have mentioned on Obama previously, he had a campaign promise to reform health insurance, and was voted, by the citizens of the United States, to be our president. If you think the majority of americans do not want health reform, you might be getting your news from a skewed source.

 

[DAdams91982]

What does posting a bunch of sensationalist headlines prove?

Lets look at what the New york times has to say about that whole non regulation thing you like so much:

Cleanup Costs and Lawsuits Rattle BP’s Investors

S.E.C. Is Said to Seek to Bar Wall St. Financier

U.S. Opens Criminal Inquiry Into Oil Spill

At Co-op City, Trash Piles Up as Workers Go on Strike

Big Setback for A.I.G. in Repaying Taxpayers

Well looking at this we can easily conclude that capitalism is a failed system right? No? Oh wait thats because papers produce sensationalist titles and politically skewed views to make money? I think so...

...and as I have mentioned on Obama previously, he had a campaign promise to reform health insurance, and was voted, by the citizens of the United States, to be our president. If you think the majority of americans do not want health reform, you might be getting your news from a skewed source.

Ah, I like that.. typ lib mentality... throw a red herring, then pass of the argument as being skewed. Funny you dont look at where the stories are from, or lookup the stories themselves... most are from you little socialist media.

I do like your red herring of BP though... way to sidestep.

 

[DAdams91982]

Am I racist as well? Might as well throw all the rules for radicals in there.

 

[HereToStudy]

Ah, I like that.. typ lib mentality... throw a red herring, then pass of the argument as being skewed. Funny you dont look at where the stories are from, or lookup the stories themselves... most are from you little socialist media.

I do like your red herring of BP though... way to sidestep.

It wasn't a side step, it was a point. For every source you post about disadvantages, I can find one of an advantage. I can honestly gather 1 million headlines and articles proclaiming Obama to be a great president, it wouldnt say anything of America's views, because I can probably also find a ton of headlines claiming bush to be a great president sad3. Providing headlines wont do anything to sway me, and since we are going with the "type lib mentality" and "little socialist media" type comments, I will gladly point out that as a typical right wing conserv, your a fan of sensationalism rather then fact checking.

 

[DAdams91982]

It wasn't a side step, it was a point. For every source you post about disadvantages, I can find one of an advantage. I can honestly gather 1 million headlines and articles proclaiming Obama to be a great president, it wouldnt say anything of America's views, because I can probably also find a ton of headlines claiming bush to be a great president sad3. Providing headlines wont do anything to sway me, and since we are going with the "type lib mentality" and "little socialist media" type comments, I will gladly point out that as a typical right wing conserv, your a fan of sensationalism rather then fact checking.

I am a Conserv... but you are mistaken... Libertarian Conservative. So, strike 1. I fact check anything I convey, and socialist health care in America is a terrible idea.. in fact we have already done a dry run with medicare, medicaid, and lets not forget the ever so wonderful subsidized HMOs. In every facet of health care besides being unsocialized, America is on the bleed edge of saving lives. If people do not make enough money, there is the Medi programs (Well, that was before it was hacked and slashed). And if someone didn't want to buy insurance instead, that is one of the rights of freedom.

 

[HereToStudy]

I am a Conserv... but you are mistaken... Libertarian Conservative. So, strike 1. I fact check anything I convey, and socialist health care in America is a terrible idea.. in fact we have already done a dry run with medicare, medicaid, and lets not forget the ever so wonderful subsidized HMOs. In every facet of health care besides being unsocialized, America is on the bleed edge of saving lives. If people do not make enough money, there is the Medi programs (Well, that was before it was hacked and slashed). And if someone didn't want to buy insurance instead, that is one of the rights of freedom.

Alright lets agree to disagree, I can't keep having this argument over and over and over.

 

[DAdams91982]

Alright lets agree to disagree, I can't keep having this argument over and over and over.

But we will! We are both pretty opinionated, and we will both be at the same topic yet again next time it is brought up. :chairfall: Until next time kids.