Health DEFORM what it costs YOU!

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    For Great Britain
    Great Britain's National Health Service (NHS) was created on July 5, 1948. As with all government programs, bureaucrats underestimated initial cost projections. First-year operating costs of NHS were 52 million pounds higher than original estimates1 as Britons saturated the so-called free system.

    Many decades of shortages, misery and suffering followed until 1989, when some market-based health care competition was reintroduced to the British citizens2.

    Unfortunately for those requiring care, a mostly socialist health care system has problems. The articles and commentaries in this section identify some disasters caused by government intervention in the British health care system.

    I also recommend reading David G. Green and Laura Casper's economic report, Delay, Denial and Dilution: The Impact of NHS Rationing on Heart Disease and Cancer to see the inevitable outcome of the necessary rationing of government health care.


    Straight from the newspapers

    * Labour's secret plan to send overweight children to NHS fat camps
    - Laura Donnelly, September 6, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

    * Burnham Forgets 230,000 on List
    - Macer Hall, August 14, 2009 [Daily Express (UK)]

    * £1.2bn bill for the bureaucrat army within the NHS
    - Jenny Hope, August 13, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]

    * Couples Face an IVF Postcode Lottery
    - Katherine Fenech, August 6, 2009 [Daily Express (UK)]

    * Kidney cancer patients denied life-saving drugs by NHS rationing body NICE
    - April 29, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]

    * Girl, 3, has heart operation cancelled three times because of bed shortage
    - David Rose, April 23, 2009 [Times Online]

    * Number of children going to hospital to have teeth pulled soars by 66% since 1997
    - Daniel Martin and Cher Thornhill, April 12, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]

    * NHS 'failings' over elderly falls
    - March 25, 2009 [BBC]

    * Learning disabled 'failed by NHS'
    - Nick Triggle, March 24, 2009 [BBC]

    * Cancer survivor confronts the health secretary on 62-day wait
    - Lyndsay Moss, March 21, 2009 [The Scotsman]

    * Culture of targets prevents nurses from tending to patients
    - Claire Rayner, President of the Patients Association, March 21, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

    * Children being failed by health system, says head of watchdog
    - Sarah Boseley, March 21, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * Our cancer shame: Survival rates still lag behind EU despite spending billions
    - Jenny Hope, March 20, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Failing hospital 'caused deaths'
    - March 17, 2009 [BBC]

    * Health gap drive 'wasted money'
    - Nick Triggle, March 14, 2009 [BBC]

    * Longer GP opening hours branded wasteful 'PR exercise' by doctors
    - Lyndsay Moss, March 13, 2009 [The Scotsman]

    * "Political meddling" threatens general practice, warns GP leader
    - March 13, 2009 [Management in Practice (UK)]

    * Children at risk through lack of training for doctors and nurses, report warns
    - Rebecca Smith, March 13, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

    * Chocolate should be taxed to control obesity epidemic, doctors are told
    - Simon Johnson, March 13, 2009 [Telegraph UK]

    * 1,000 villagers wait for a dentist after just one NHS practice opens
    - March 10, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Study that proves the folly of NHS Alzheimer's drug ban
    - Jenny Hope, March 7, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * NHS charges to rise in England
    - March 5, 2009 [BBC]

    * Disabled children wait up to two years for wheelchairs
    - March 4, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * NHS under fire over waiting times
    - February 25, 2009 [The Scotsman]

    * Government procrastination blamed for HIV-contaminated blood tragedy
    - February 23, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * Specialist nurses 'vastly overworked'
    - February 20, 2009 [Harwich & Manningtree Standard]

    * Hundreds of operations cancelled at Lothian hospitals
    - Adam Morris, February 19, 2009 [The Scotsman]

    * Stop asking for antibiotics to cure coughs and colds, Government tells patients
    - Daniel Martin, February 17, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Stroke services are 'UK's worst'
    - February 17, 2009 [BBC]

    * Hospitals curb caesarean births
    - Sarah-Kate Templeton, February 15, 2009 [The Times]

    * Only five out of 51 hospital trusts pass hygiene test, say inspectors
    - Sarah Boseley, November 24, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * Top doctors slam NHS drug rationing
    - Sarah-Kate Templeton, August 24, 2008 [The Times]

    * Heart patients dying due to poor hospital care, says report
    - Sarah Boseley, June 8, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * NHS dentistry loses almost a million patients after new dentists' contract
    - David Rose, June 6, 2008 [The Times]

    * Private healthcare managers could be sent to turn round failing NHS hospitals
    - Philip Webster, Political Editor, and David Rose, June 4, 2008 [The Times]

    * Cancer patients ‘betrayed’ by NHS
    - Sarah-Kate Templeton, June 1, 2008 [The Times]

    * NHS scandal: dying cancer victim was forced to pay
    - Sarah-Kate Templeton, June 1, 2008 [The Times]

    * Pensioner, 76, forced to pull out own teeth after 12 NHS dentists refuse to treat her
    - Olinka Koster, March 26, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Dental patients face care lottery
    - March 26, 2008 [Metro(UK)]

    * Lung patients 'condemned to death as NHS withdraws their too expensive drugs'
    - Jenny Hope, March 24, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Women in labour turned away by maternity units
    - John Carvel, March 21, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * Health inequality has got worse under Labour, says government report
    - Andrew Sparrow, March 13, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * Angry GPs reluctantly accept plan for weekend and evening surgeries
    - John Carvel, March 7, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * NHS chiefs tell grandmother, 61, she's 'too old' for £5,000 life-saving heart surgery
    - Chris Brooke, February 28, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Patient 'removed' from waiting list to meet target
    - January 31, 2008 [The Scotsman]

    * NHS patients told to treat themselves
    - James Kirkup, January 4, 2008 [Telegraph UK]

    * NHS is 'failing patients' despite record funding
    - Rebecca Smith, October 4, 2007 [Telegraph UK]

    * NHS rationing rife, say doctors
    - September 24, 2007 [BBC]

    * One in eight patients waiting over a year for treatment, admits minister
    - John Carvel, June 8, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * Audit Office asked to investigate record £500m NHS underspend
    - John Carvel, May 30, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * The drugs the NHS won't give you
    - May 11, 2007 [Telegraph UK]

    * UK lagging behind on cancer drug access, study finds
    - May 10, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]

    * One in six trusts is still putting patients on mixed-sex wards
    - Daniel Martin, May 10, 2007 [Daily Mail(UK)]

    * Specialist stroke care 'lottery'
    - May 9, 2007 [BBC News]

    * Smokers and the obese banned from UK hospitals
    - May 2, 2007 [Healthcare News]

    * Cancer patients told life-prolonging treatment is too expensive for NHS
    - Lyndsay Moss, February 13, 2007 [The Scotsman]

    * UK health service "harms 10 percent of patients"
    - Kate Kelland, July 7, 2006 [Reuters]

    * 5,000 elderly 'killed each year' by lack of care beds
    - June 26, 2006 [Telegraph UK]

    * Dental Socialism in Britain
    - Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr., May 9, 2006 [LewRockwell.com]

    * Pay for nurses and surgeons doubles NHS overspend
    - Beezy Marsh, Patrick Hennessy and Nina Goswami, April 23, 2006 [Telegraph UK]

    * The money addicts: it's your cash they are gambling with
    - Patience Wheatcroft, April 23, 2006 [Telegraph UK]

    * NHS chiefs get luxury car deals
    - Daniel Foggo and Steven Swinford, April 9, 2006 [The Times]

    * Secret NHS plan to ration patient care
    - Nigel Hawkes, April 7, 2006 [The Times]

    * British Healthcare To Be Rationed
    - April 7, 2006 [United Press International]

    * British body rejects EPO drugs for cancer patients
    - March 17, 2006 [Reuters]

    * National Health Service - Grappling with Deficits
    - March 9, 2006 [Economist.com]

    * Hundreds wait to register as another dentist quits the NHS
    - Martin Williams, September 23, 2005 [The Herald (Scotland)]

    * Life-saving cancer drugs 'kept from NHS patients by red tape'
    - Sam Lister, September 20, 2005 [The Times]

    * NHS slides into the red despite record increases in health care spending
    - September 20, 2005 [Telegraph UK]

    * Alzheimer's sufferers hit by further delay in NHS approval for vital drugs
    - Michael Day, September 18, 2005 [Telegraph UK]

    * We all pay a price for our 'free' NHS
    - John Smith, August 19, 2005 [The Scotsman]

    * 2,000 British doctors out of work
    - August 14, 2005 [The Washington Times]

    * UK health 'unsustainable'
    - August 14, 2005 [Finance24]

    * NHS faces rising bill for negligence claims
    - Ben Hall, August 8, 2005 [Financial Times]

    * British boy to go to India for operation
    - August 5, 2005 [United Press International]

    * NHS failed to stop doctor raping scores of women
    - Lois Rogers and Jonathon Carr-Brown, July 31, 2005 [The Times]

    * Top crimewriter funds drugs for cancer victim refused by NHS
    - Martyn Halle, July 8, 2005 [Telegraph UK]

    * Report says NHS is mired in huge debts
    - David Simms, June 25, 2005 [ABC Money (UK)]

    * U.K. set to restrict smoking
    - June 21, 2005 [The Associated Press]

    * NHS ‘fund bias’ against men may cost 2,500 lives a year
    - Sarah-Kate Templeton, June 19, 2005 [The Times]

    * Doubts on funding NHS 'monuments'
    - Nicholas Timmins, June 10, 2005 [Financial Times]

    * 17 million reasons why we must improve hospital meals
    - June 7, 2005 [Cambridge Evening News]

    * Figures show more patients waiting for operations
    - June 3, 2005 [Guardian UK]

    * Scarcity of NHS dental treatment is revealed
    - Celia Hall, May 19, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * Why NHS Opposes 'Treatment by Demand' for the Dying
    - Stephen Howard and Jan Colley, PA, May 18, 2005 [Scotsman]

    * 800 queue for NHS dentists
    - May 5, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * Hundreds more heroin addicts to be given a fix on the NHS
    - Nic Fleming, April 25, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * British health service facing nurse exodus
    - April 25, 2005 [United Press International]

    * About 400 patients a year in Scotland succumb to MRSA
    - April 25, 2005 [Scotsman]

    * NHS debts soar to over £1bn
    - Karyn Miller, April 24, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * British taxpayers foot $26.5 million bill for abortion tourists
    - April 18, 2005 [Catholic World News]

    * U.K. Liberal Democrats Would Raise Taxes to Pay for Health Care
    - Reed Landberg, April 14, 2005 [Bloomberg]

    * Number of NHS Bureaucrats 'Rising Faster Than Health Staff'
    - Joe Churcher, March 22, 2005 [Scotsman]

    * '£500m hole' in hospital budgets
    - Celia Hall, March 21, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * 1,000 Scots desert NHS every week
    - Murdo Macleod, March 5, 2005 [Scotsman]

    * British NHS facing financial crisis
    - March 3, 2005 [Washington Times]

    * NHS drugs regulator to withdraw approval of Alzheimer's treatment
    - Nicholas Timmins, March 2, 2005 [FT.com - Financial Times]

    * NHS waiting list rises
    - February 11, 2005 [Guardian UK]

    * Tumour patients hit by NHS shortages
    - Jo Revill, February 6, 2005 [Guardian UK]

    * NHS financial crises set to outlast winter
    - Mike Waites, February 4, 2005 [Yorkshire Post]

    * NHS 24 'priority' callers wait four hours for advice
    - Caroline Wilson, January 14, 2005 [Evening Times (UK)]

    * 'No strategy' on NHS waiting time
    - January 14, 2005 [BBC]

    * Output figures show NHS decline
    - John Carvel, October 19, 2004 [Guardian UK]

    * Heart patients die on waiting lists
    - Peter Sharples, October 18, 2004 [Manchester Online]

    * £25bn overspend feared for NHS computer network
    - Karen Attwood, October 12, 2004 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * Gaps in care cost £7bn, says charity
    - John Carvel, October 4, 2004 [Guardian UK]

    * NHS excluding poor people, UK
    - September 15, 2004 [Medical News Today]

    * Smokers 'should not get NHS care'
    - September 6, 2004 [BBC News]

    * Waiting list row blights Brighton
    - John Carvel, September 4, 2004 [Guardian UK]

    * Patients are denied the last rites under data protection law
    - Elizabeth Day, July 25, 2004 [telegraph.co.uk]

    * Shortage of dentists to double by 2011
    - John Carvel, July 24, 2004 [Guardian UK]

    * Britain's stiff upper lip gives way to a snarl
    - Sarah Lyall, July 18, 2004 [The New York Times]

    * Hospital Overcrowding A Cause of Superbug Infections
    - John von Radowitz, July 1, 2004 [Scotsman.com]

    * Hospital Crisis: Fallen Angels
    - Lindsay Mcgarvie, May 23, 2004 [Glasgow Sunday Mail]

    * Study finds British hospitals are still austere, cold, smelly and poorly maintained
    - May 6, 2004 [News-Medical.net]

    * Hospital bathrooms and showers: a continuing saga of inadequacy
    - Andy Monro, MRCP & Graham P Mulley, DM, FRCP, May 2004 [Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine]

    * Majority back public smoking ban
    - March 24, 2004 [BBC]

    * Discrimination Rampant In British Health Care
    - Peter Moore, November 17, 2003 [365gay.com]

    * PERIPATETICS—To the Medical Socialists of All Parties
    - Sheldon Richman, September 2003 [FEE.org]

    * Creeping Privatization?
    Shortages of skilled workers, low morale, long queues for services, crumbling facilities and corrupt practises. - Roland Watson, August 6, 2001 [LewRockwell.com]

    * The World's Worst HMO
    - Stephen D. Moore, November 24, 1999 [Random Thoughts]

    * Socialized Medicine in Great Britain: Lessons for the Oregon Health Plan
    - Professor John Spiers, March 18, 1999 [Cascade Policy Institute]

    * The Sickbed Which is Socialized British Medicine
    - December 23, 1997 [NCPA]

    * The British Way of Withholding Care
    - Harry Schwarz, March 1989 [FEE.org]
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    For Canada
    Parliament unanimously passed the Canada Health Act in 1984 and established a single-payer, publicly-financed health care system. To ensure a true government monopoly (is there any other kind?) Canadian provinces outlawed private health insurance.

    Chaoulli v. Quebec UPDATE (June 9, 2005): In a 4 to 3 decision, the Canadian Supreme Court struck down Quebec's law that prohibits private medical insurance.

    U.S. Patients have Greater Access to Advanced Medical Technology Than Do Canadians


    * Surgery postponed indefinitely for 1,000 Kelowna patients
    - Cathryn Atkinson, April 8, 2008 [Globe and Mail]

    * Majority of Que. dentists quit health-care system
    - March 27, 2008 [CTV.ca]

    * Why Ontario keeps sending patients south
    - Lisa Priest, February 22, 2008 [Globe and Mail]

    * Will Socialized Health Care in the US Kill Canadians?
    - Don Surber, March 3, 2008 [Acton Institute]

    * Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report
    - October 15, 2007 [CBC News (Canada)]

    * The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
    - David Gratzer, Summer 2007 [City Journal]

    * Cancer patients question why PET scan not covered
    - May 28, 2007 [CBC News]

    * BC Medical Association: Waiting Too Long for Hip and Knee Surgery Costs $10,000 Per Patient-Maximum Wait Times Should Be No Longer Than 6 Months
    - June 28, 2006 [CCN Matthews]

    * Ont. physician turns away patient for being 55+
    - March 17, 2006 [CTV.ca]

    * Canada inches toward private medicine
    - Rebecca Cook Dube, August 8, 2005 [CS Monitor]

    * Doctor defends private cancer clinic
    - Gillian Livingston, July 15, 2005 [Canadian Press]

    * Dogma trumps truth in health-care issues
    - D’Arcy Jenish, July 7, 2005 [Ontario Business News]

    * Why Canadians Purchase Private Health Insurance
    - Walter Williams, June 20, 2005 [Capitalism Magazine]

    * Doctor welcomes health ruling
    - June 9, 2005 [CBC Montreal]

    * Patients shouldn't wait more than 8 weeks for cardiac defibrillator: experts
    - May 24, 2005 [Canadian Press]

    * Grads fail to slow doctor shortage
    - Jennifer O'Brien, May 21, 2005 [London Free Press]

    * Free Canadian health care comes at cost
    - April 10, 2005 [Arkansas Democrat-Gazette]

    * Canada's drug tab reaches $22 billion, report suggests
    - Sheryl Ubelacker, CP, April 6, 2005 [London Free Press]

    * Canadian health care is free and first-class -- if you can wait
    - Beth Duff-Brown, March 19, 2005 [The Associated Press]

    * Pediatricians, parents warn of shortage of community-based care for children
    - Colin Perkel, March 4, 2005 [The Canadian Press]

    * Access to specialists difficult: study
    - February 16, 2005 [CBC Calgary]

    * Doctor shortages, frustrations vary from region to region, survey shows
    - February 15, 2005 [Canada.com]

    * Montreal leads the country in offering private health care
    - Aaron Derfel, February 12, 2005 [Montreal Gazette]

    * Canada falling short on medical imaging
    - February 9, 2005 [Macleans.ca]

    * Creative incentives required to retain older doctors
    - Dr. Charles Shaver, January 20, 2005 [Toronto Star]

    * MRI gap defies cash fix
    - Mark Kennedy, January 14, 2005 [National Post (Canada)]

    * A boy's plight, a nation's problem
    - Lisa Priest, January 13, 2005 [The Globe and Mail]

    * Where's proof private clinics cost more?
    - Tom Brodbeck, December 4, 2004 [The Winnipeg Sun]

    * Surgery backlog tops 5,500 at kids' hospitals; One-year waits common
    - Aaron Derfel, December 3, 2004 [The Gazette (Montreal)]

    * Hospital wait lists to get worse, Carriere says
    - Chris Traber, November 14, 2004 [Yorkregion.com]

    * Frustrated patients can't handle ER waits
    - Jennifer Stewart and Jeffrey Simpson, October 28, 2004 [The Halifax Herald Limited]

    * Private medical clinic opens in Montreal
    ...it answers, "an ever-increasing demand from the public for greater accessibility and quality of health services." - October 13, 2004 [CTV.ca]

    * Canadians have higher death risk than Americans after heart attack: study
    - Sheryl Ubelacker, September 20, 2004 [Canada.com]

    * Canadian medical tourists in India
    - Jeremy Copeland, September 20, 2004 [CBC News]

    * Doctor shortage cripples Canada's free health care
    - Clifford Krauss, September 18, 2004 [Minneapolis-St. Paul Star Tribune]

    * Canada's Once-Proud Public Health System in Crisis
    - David Ljunggren, September 14, 2004 [Reuters (Ottawa)]

    * Hospitals to cut, again
    - September 5, 2004 [Toronto Star]

    * Canada's Medical Nightmare
    - Robert J. Cihak, M.D., September 1, 2004 [Health Care News]

    * Canada faces shortage of doctors
    - August 19, 2004 [MSNBC]

    * Canadians losing faith in health system: poll
    - August 16, 2004 [CTV.ca]

    * Ontario hospitals a health risk
    - Michael Hurley, August 8, 2004 [Toronto Star]

    * Need surgery? Here's how long you'll wait
    "It's inhuman. The quality of my life is horrible and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it." - Jason Fekete, July 28, 2004 [Calgary Herald]

    * Docs, nurses fed up
    Canadian doctors and nurses are fed up with inter-governmental "bickering" that is dragging out wait times and causing more pain and suffering for patients. - July 28, 2004 [Winnipeg Sun]

    * Free Health Care?
    ...in some cases, patients die on the waiting list because they become too sick to tolerate a procedure. - Walter E. Williams, July 24, 2004 [CATO]

    * The truth about Canada's ailing health-care system
    All the major candidates in Canada's recent national election acknowledged that the country's health-care system is failing Canadians. - Robert J. Cihak, July 13, 2004 [The Seattle Times]

    * Health-care crisis looms, even with new money
    Canada's health-care system is "five to 10 years" from the breaking point -- even with cash injections from government, says the new president of the B.C. Medical Association. - Doug Alexander, July 5, 2004 [Vancouver Sun]

    * Emergency room delays a strong campaign factor
    "Go into the emergency room — it is the most pitiful piece of work you ever seen in your life." - David Bruser, June 22, 2004 [Toronto Star]

    * Canadian Health Care in Crisis
    Analyst visits NC to describe how single-payer health care really works in practice. - Donna Martinez, June 17, 2004 [Carolina Journal]

    * Quebec cancer patients sue over wait
    Women waited months for radiation; lawsuit could cost system $50-million. - Ingrid Peritz, March 11, 2004 [The Globe and Mail]

    * Health care: no waiting lists
    'You get knee surgery within two days ... try and get that in human hospitals.' Canada's [private] pet health-insurance industry is projected to grow at roughly 50 per cent a year... - Robert Scalia, November 30, 2003 [Montreal Gazette]

    * For some, surgery abroad a welcome answer
    - Daniel Girard, November 29, 2003 [Toronto Star]

    * Canadian Doctors Eyeing United States
    - Clifford Krauss, October 17, 2003 [The New York Times]

    * The Top Ten Things People Believe About Canadian Health Care, But Shouldn’t
    - Brian Lee Crowley, October 9, 2003 [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]

    * Canadians' health at risk, CMA says
    - Valerie Lawton, September 26, 2003 [Toronto Star]

    * Burnout is now doctors' ailment
    Almost half of Canadian doctors say they're burned out, emotionally exhausted and blame medicine for putting a drain on their family life. - Karen Palmer, August 20, 2003 [Toronto Star]

    * New MRI clinic in row over poaching
    While she insists she's not making any money off the venture, she says it provides an income allowance for her and her husband, the other principal in the company. - Theresa Boyle and Robert Benzie, July 28, 2003 [Toronto Star]

    * Price Controls and Overall Drug Spending
    The Canadian system, however, tends to push up overall spending on prescription drugs, despite the low prices for some brand name ones. - John Melby, July 2, 2003 [Buckeye Institute]

    * Gore Endorses Canada's Medical System
    - William L. Anderson, November 29, 2002 [Mises]

    * How Good is Canadian Health Care?
    - August 2002 [Fraser Institute]

    * Canadian Health-Care System Is No Model for Prescription Drug Reform
    - May 1, 2001 [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]

    * The Ghost of America's Health Care Future Lives in Canada Today
    - James Frogue and Robert Moffit, December 25, 2000 [Capitalism Magazine]

    * Socialized Medicine: The Canadian Experience
    Explores several lessons that can be drawn from the Canadian experience with socialized medicine:
    o Socialized medicine, although of poor quality, is very expensive;
    o Political compromise is the result;
    o Socialized medicine is both a consequence and a great contributor to the idea that economic conditions should be equalized by coercion. - Pierre Lemieux [The Freeman]

    * Canadian Health Care
    ...if Canadians knew as much as they think they do about the economic and moral workings of Medicare, they might not be as enthusiastic as they are about their cherished right to 'free' health care. - Andrei Kreptul, August 30, 2000 [Mises]

    * When Patients Become Victims - The Crime of Government-Run Health Care
    - Merrill Matthews Jr., Ph.D. and Kerri Houston, May 1, 2000 (PDF format)

    * Socialized Medicine Leaves a Bad Taste in Patients' Mouths
    - Lawrence W. Reed, February 23, 2000 [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]

    * Canadians Dissatisfied With Socialized Medicine
    - January 26, 2000 [NCPA]

    * Memo to Al Gore: Canadian Medicine Isn't Cheap or Effective
    - William McArthur, former chief coroner for British Columbia, January 28, 2000

    * Loved to Death: America's Unresolved Health-Care Crisis
    As Canada's national government slashes spending on medical care in order to reduce the deficit, local provinces are reducing medical staff. In Ontario, pregnant women are being sent to Detroit because no obstetricians are available. Specialists of all kinds are in short supply. Patients have to wait eight weeks for an MRI, ten weeks for referral to a specialist, and four months for heart bypass surgery. - Michael J. Hurd, November 1997 [Liberty Haven]

    * Is Canadian Health care a Good Model for the U.S. to Follow?
    - Michael Walker, August 1994 [Liberty Haven]

    * Health of the State (commentary by a cancer survivor)
    I tell you this not to alarm you, to elicit sympathy, or to bore you. I tell you because the episode has been, for me, a salutary lesson (just in case I needed one) in why the government should not be allowed anywhere near a syringe, a dressing, a scalpel, an oxygen mask, a tissue sample — anything to do with health.

    * Michigan Shouldn't Copy Canada's Health System
    - Lawrence W. Reed, July 29, 1991 [Mackinac Center for Public Policy]
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    What does posting a bunch of sensationalist headlines prove?

    Lets look at what the New york times has to say about that whole non regulation thing you like so much:

    Cleanup Costs and Lawsuits Rattle BP’s Investors

    S.E.C. Is Said to Seek to Bar Wall St. Financier

    U.S. Opens Criminal Inquiry Into Oil Spill

    At Co-op City, Trash Piles Up as Workers Go on Strike

    Big Setback for A.I.G. in Repaying Taxpayers

    Well looking at this we can easily conclude that capitalism is a failed system right? No? Oh wait thats because papers produce sensationalist titles and politically skewed views to make money? I think so...

    ...and as I have mentioned on Obama previously, he had a campaign promise to reform health insurance, and was voted, by the citizens of the United States, to be our president. If you think the majority of americans do not want health reform, you might be getting your news from a skewed source.
    Just inject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    What does posting a bunch of sensationalist headlines prove?

    Lets look at what the New york times has to say about that whole non regulation thing you like so much:

    Cleanup Costs and Lawsuits Rattle BP’s Investors

    S.E.C. Is Said to Seek to Bar Wall St. Financier

    U.S. Opens Criminal Inquiry Into Oil Spill

    At Co-op City, Trash Piles Up as Workers Go on Strike

    Big Setback for A.I.G. in Repaying Taxpayers

    Well looking at this we can easily conclude that capitalism is a failed system right? No? Oh wait thats because papers produce sensationalist titles and politically skewed views to make money? I think so...

    ...and as I have mentioned on Obama previously, he had a campaign promise to reform health insurance, and was voted, by the citizens of the United States, to be our president. If you think the majority of americans do not want health reform, you might be getting your news from a skewed source.
    Ah, I like that.. typ lib mentality... throw a red herring, then pass of the argument as being skewed. Funny you dont look at where the stories are from, or lookup the stories themselves... most are from you little socialist media.

    I do like your red herring of BP though... way to sidestep.
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    Am I racist as well? Might as well throw all the rules for radicals in there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Ah, I like that.. typ lib mentality... throw a red herring, then pass of the argument as being skewed. Funny you dont look at where the stories are from, or lookup the stories themselves... most are from you little socialist media.

    I do like your red herring of BP though... way to sidestep.
    It wasn't a side step, it was a point. For every source you post about disadvantages, I can find one of an advantage. I can honestly gather 1 million headlines and articles proclaiming Obama to be a great president, it wouldnt say anything of America's views, because I can probably also find a ton of headlines claiming bush to be a great president (). Providing headlines wont do anything to sway me, and since we are going with the "type lib mentality" and "little socialist media" type comments, I will gladly point out that as a typical right wing conserv, your a fan of sensationalism rather then fact checking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    It wasn't a side step, it was a point. For every source you post about disadvantages, I can find one of an advantage. I can honestly gather 1 million headlines and articles proclaiming Obama to be a great president, it wouldnt say anything of America's views, because I can probably also find a ton of headlines claiming bush to be a great president (). Providing headlines wont do anything to sway me, and since we are going with the "type lib mentality" and "little socialist media" type comments, I will gladly point out that as a typical right wing conserv, your a fan of sensationalism rather then fact checking.
    I am a Conserv... but you are mistaken... Libertarian Conservative. So, strike 1. I fact check anything I convey, and socialist health care in America is a terrible idea.. in fact we have already done a dry run with medicare, medicaid, and lets not forget the ever so wonderful subsidized HMOs. In every facet of health care besides being unsocialized, America is on the bleed edge of saving lives. If people do not make enough money, there is the Medi programs (Well, that was before it was hacked and slashed). And if someone didn't want to buy insurance instead, that is one of the rights of freedom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I am a Conserv... but you are mistaken... Libertarian Conservative. So, strike 1. I fact check anything I convey, and socialist health care in America is a terrible idea.. in fact we have already done a dry run with medicare, medicaid, and lets not forget the ever so wonderful subsidized HMOs. In every facet of health care besides being unsocialized, America is on the bleed edge of saving lives. If people do not make enough money, there is the Medi programs (Well, that was before it was hacked and slashed). And if someone didn't want to buy insurance instead, that is one of the rights of freedom.
    Alright lets agree to disagree, I can't keep having this argument over and over and over.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Alright lets agree to disagree, I can't keep having this argument over and over and over.
    But we will! We are both pretty opinionated, and we will both be at the same topic yet again next time it is brought up. Until next time kids.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    But we will! We are both pretty opinionated, and we will both be at the same topic yet again next time it is brought up. Until next time kids.
    Lol ain't that the truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    ...and as I have mentioned on Obama previously, he had a campaign promise to reform health insurance, and was voted, by the citizens of the United States, to be our president. If you think the majority of americans do not want health reform, you might be getting your news from a skewed source.
    Americans did and still do want health care reform, but what we want addressed are the actual costs. We don't want to see money shuffled around so that more in taxes is collected to just pay for other peoples care while still doing absolutely 0 to lower the cost of care which is what this bill does. This bill just continues to take us further and further down the road towards insolvency as a country by continuing to raise our deficit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Americans did and still do want health care reform, but what we want addressed are the actual costs. We don't want to see money shuffled around so that more in taxes is collected to just pay for other peoples care while still doing absolutely 0 to lower the cost of care which is what this bill does. This bill just continues to take us further and further down the road towards insolvency as a country by continuing to raise our deficit.
    Like I said, I am letting this thread die. On a final statement towards your argument, If we are going to cry deficit, why dont we discuss the cost of war we were rushed into? The original Obama-Biden plan used for campaigning discussed a public option. The American people voted for them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Like I said, I am letting this thread die. On a final statement towards your argument, If we are going to cry deficit, why dont we discuss the cost of war we were rushed into? The original Obama-Biden plan used for campaigning discussed a public option. The American people voted for them.
    Feel free to start a thread on the war, but this was about healthcare. All you've done the whole thread is ignore the actual monetary issues and stated how much better it is elsewhere, and how it "should be" here in the US so you dropping it isn't a loss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Like I said, I am letting this thread die.
    You seem to be the only one on these forums that just cant let it go. I will never agree with you. Enjoy your opinion and I will enjoy mine.
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    Again, the costs of health care have not been addressed, which is what the public was actually concerned about. Do people feel sad that people choose to not buy insurance and instead use their money for cigarettes, beer, rims, etc? No, not really. But that was the primary thing this bill addressed, while allowing for insurance companies to make a higher profit than they currently do. So mostly this creates a huge bureaucracy extension (15,000 IRS agents alone) with limited value, while raising deficit. Bravo if you can find any way to be supportive of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    You seem to be the only one on these forums that just cant let it go. I will never agree with you. Enjoy your opinion and I will enjoy mine.
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    I'm not sure exactly when you became a mod, or became the arbiter of what conversations people are having in threads not started by you, but I guess you must be pretty excited about it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'm not sure exactly when you became a mod, or became the arbiter of what conversations people are having in threads not started by you, but I guess you must be pretty excited about it?
    Oh im sorry, you must not have been addressing me then, carry on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Oh im sorry, you must not have been addressing me then, carry on.
    Its pretty comical how for having said leaving the thread a good 3 or 4 times, you still keep returning to it.
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    Wowzers! Just skimmed through this thread and it brings me back to a silly experiment I would love to see implemented but never will:

    Let all the government loving, higher tax advocates take one side of the country, and the small government, self responsibility crowd get the other and see how long it takes until we(the small Gov. side) get a knock on the door and hear, "Uh...we're broke, can we come in?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Like I said, I am letting this thread die. On a final statement towards your argument, If we are going to cry deficit, why dont we discuss the cost of war we were rushed into? The original Obama-Biden plan used for campaigning discussed a public option. The American people voted for them.
    BUT, Obama also had a good plan for the war, which I honestly think swayed more votes than his healthcare ideas...and so far he has not kept his promis AT ALL in regards to the war. In fact he has just kept extending it. The ONLY two options that will work in the middle east are:

    1. GTFO
    2. Stay for several generations, because the only way of killing terrorism is breeding it away.

    I am not an Obama supporter at all, I am right wing conservative on 99% of issues (I like stem cells though), but I can respect any educated argument, its when people get their education from CNN that I go into angry rants :P

    Honestly it really bothers me when people point at Bush and blame everything on him. If people are going to do that then they also need to realize that Bush inherited 9/11. There was nothing he could have done to stop it, all he could do was react. You can bet your ass that Obama would have done the exact same thing as Bush in that event, because America would not stand for a ***** ass president. The bottom line fact is yeah, maybe Bush created some problems, but they are OBAMAS problems right now, and instead of fixing them, he is pushing some other crap like healthcare...Americans are some of the most unhealthy people in the world because of our lifestyle, I don't think healthcare should be a priority for the government...it honestly seems like a waste of money.

    400 planes to get 100% of our troops out of Iraq. That's all, 400. We are not bringing the equipment home, we'll gift it to the Iraqis I'm sure, most of it is 10 years old now anyway.

    Obama signed the bailouts.

    Obama will end up spending more money and putting us further in debt than Bush ever did in my opinion.

    Obama has said that Afghanistan will be the largest reconstruction in US history. What's that mean? That means we will spend trillions and trillions rebuilding a society that is ****. As soon as we leave it will be exactly the same, except they will have all this nice stuff we built....

    I don't know...I respect that you are an educated supporter HeretoStudy, but I am an educated non-supporter...
    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Americans did and still do want health care reform, but what we want addressed are the actual costs. We don't want to see money shuffled around so that more in taxes is collected to just pay for other peoples care while still doing absolutely 0 to lower the cost of care which is what this bill does. This bill just continues to take us further and further down the road towards insolvency as a country by continuing to raise our deficit.
    I agree somewhat, I don't think people care as much about the taxation as we think, but it sure pisses me off knowing I will be paying extra taxes and seeing 0 benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Its pretty comical how for having said leaving the thread a good 3 or 4 times, you still keep returning to it.
    Jeez guys its a debate here, no need to bring in emotion o.O
  

  
 

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