The New Arizona Immigration Law (SB1070) in Arizona
- 05-05-2010, 11:33 PM
It's only a matter of time before a false accusation happens to someone with money. At that point, this will become a supreme court issue and will be cause a much further political debate.
Another issue that WILL arise out of all of this is the effect on local businesses. I feel this commenter/blogger states it pretty accurately:
I also give credit to the balls of the Pheonix suns, or shall I say the los suns:
- 05-06-2010, 12:46 AM
There are 4,000,000 people in Maricopa county
There are 400,000 Illegals in Maricopa county
of the 3,600,000 citizens, there is 750,000,000 in unpaid bills
that's an average of $208.00 a citizen in unpaid bills
of the 400,000 illegals, there is 250,000,000 in unpaid bills
that's an average of $625.00 an illegal in unpaid bills
Now if the Illegals had a median wage that of three times the citizen wage, their contribution(taxes,consumerism ,donations,etc...) would sufficiently "shore up" the economy in AZ even though they don't do things like pay their hospital bills.
We both know an illegals median income is a fraction of a citizens median income.
This is only ONE example of how much it costs to have this "invaluable" labor source.
- 05-06-2010, 12:47 AM
05-06-2010, 01:02 AM
If manufacturing for farming equipment goes up, cost of harvesters goes up, cost of packaging/sorting goes up (this is assuming that the replaced role of illegals would be filled with minimum wage paid legals - we understand that illegals usually make under minimum wage), then we can easily expect the price of product to go up. Ms. Soccer Mom now has to spend more on produce to feed her family, which in turn means she is spending less on make up, toys for the children, and other commodities. Now those companies have to start laying people off, because their sales are going down. Now those former employees have less money to put back into the economy, causing a bad trickle effect.
This example shows only if illegals worked in the farming industry, which is untrue, they actually work throughout many different industries. So the effect would be 10 fold.
05-06-2010, 02:43 AM
If you think that cheaper labor drives down the cost of food, you haven't taken economics at a high-school level.
The person working the cheapest gets the job,(that's usually the illegal) and the farmer sells his product for it's market value no matter what he pays for labor. The two really aren't related on the supply and demand curves.
05-06-2010, 09:54 AM
In the example of farming, sure demand will require a certain cost. However, when the end product is forced, which it would be (and this is ignoring government subsidizing), to raise its price due to seeing an increase in cost in all matters related to creating the product, the company is placed into a bad situation. In most cases, many producing the goods will be forced to sell at a loss. This can only be sustained for so long before the product can no longer be considered profitable. This will cause many producing the goods (in this case crops) to simply leave the business. This is due to an economics term known as Profit Motive, which in name should be enough to explain how it works.
Now this means we have fewer producers left on the market, those who due to reserves are able to withstand the low/zero profitability for a longer duration. Demand has remained constant, but now supply has taken a hit. This in turn will begin to raise the cost of the product (I won't explain supply vs. demand, since you originally stated it). This leads perfectly into my situation demonstrated earlier.
Farming is a bad example, and was merely stated as a testament to the point as illegals work in many industries. The reason it is a bad example is due to being heavily government subsidized as well as having a large potential for import. Meaning if we can't produce the supply at the price demanded, then importation from countries that can offer lower wages to thier employees are iminenent. This too would cause an issue as now we are relying on other countries for even more, and with money leaving the country, our own economy becomes affected.
Now I am sure that a common retaliation to this scenario is that Americans that are unemployed will gladly pick up the work even if it is under minimum wage, or at the wage paid to the illegal. Not true. Although some at the extreme poverty level will be forced to take such an offer, a concept known as Reservation Wage exists. Reservation Wage, is the lowest wage for which a person is willing to work, and is in balance with skills they have aquired or thier level of education. Most people in the workforce are capable enough that thier Reservation wage is above that paid to an illegal immigrant. You might also consider the effects of unions. Many skilled legal immigrants, particularly in lower income positions, will at some point seek to form a union, something that illegals do not put any effort into. A union will attempt to hold the wage above the market clearing rate, which in turn raises the costs of production. For an example of this, consider why it is sometimes cheaper to purchase produce at your local ethnic grocery store as compared to a Chain grocery store (this will be more obvious to those in urban environments). The reason being that even though the chain has much greater buying power (able to purchase in bulk at a discount), they also pay thier employees a higher wage resulting in a raise in prices to the end user. The local ethnic grocery store, with no union wages established, is able to keep wages low allowing profitability at a lower sale price.
I can keep going if you would like, but I feel we are side swipping the point by getting into the specifics.
In the same way I earlier had wrongfully accused many I was talking to on thier political views (i.e. stance on reform), and did apologize for it, I would like to ask that you take no assumptions on the level of education I have, or how I apply it to my views.
05-06-2010, 12:41 PM
With 9.7% unemployment I'm fine with deporting all illegals country wide. Yes I'll pay more as long as they are gone even though that's not the way it will work out.
I work close with immigration in a state other than Arizona and they dont even want to talk to an illegal that has less than a felony offense. They are too busy with the felons and dont have the time to deal with a misdemeanor offense or less. These guys cover the whole state. 30% of the people in jails and prisons across the nation are illegal.
05-06-2010, 12:46 PM
Look at all these little kids takin' care of the music biz don't their bus'ness take good care of me...
05-06-2010, 12:49 PM
If you have a newer article, from a credible source, stating otherwise, I am all ears. I don't state that in disbelief to your statement, it's just not what i have read.
05-06-2010, 01:54 PM
"According to INS and FBI statistics from 2006, 29 percent of all the inmates in all state and federal prisons are illegal aliens." And this is just prison. Jails are have lots of illegals in them too. Besides. Statistics dont mean anything to you and wont change your mind. And with the quickness that liberals call everyone a racist, I'm feeling left out. I want to join that bandwagon. Being called a racists has totally lost its punch. I bet the KKK are pissed. The number of "racists" has skyrocketed but their Klan #'s has gone down...strange?
05-06-2010, 02:11 PM
I also never stated that the number of racists has skyrocketed, in fact I can honestly believe that it has decreased. I do feel like these measures do involve a bit of racism. Like I said, a British immigrant on an overstayed visa would not be worried in the least bit over this bill. I hope someone who has been saying this is not a racial thing comes back and states "well illegal mexicans do crimes, not illegal british."
As for the clan numbers, it is a very old group that has lost its appeal. We can argue back and forth over the trending of current generations becoming more and more liberal, but its a side argument. The clan is very weak and seen as such now. A perfect example would be a video that was on the net (I can search for it) where at a KKK rally, a black man, who was part of the counter protest, bent down and moon'd the KKK members and asked them to "kiss his black ass." No one fears them anymore, and they are pretty much a joke. You may be really into bodybuilding, but probably wouldn't join a large group of bb'ers that are notoriously known for idiots and weak. Same reason a racist no longer finds the need to associate themselves with an organization viewed as retarded.
05-06-2010, 02:20 PM
On an army forum, I found this particular post best describing my emotion towards the author:
SourceThe P. F. Wagner you reference chiefly appears in anti-immigrant nativist propaganda and doesn't seem to have any concrete standing anywhere except with the Klan like websites you might favor.
"P. F. Wagner" appears to be a shadow author, very common of propaganda articles.
In his own words...The author of this report collected voluminous information from a wide variety of sources over a significant period of time as the subject interested me. However, in the process some of the references to the original sources were lost and therefore may be omitted.
That link is laughable at best.
05-06-2010, 03:26 PM
The David Dunn Arizona Amnesty Program
Open enrollment: from today untill the end of the year undocumented residents are encouraged to come forward and register for the program. In return they will be given a temporary worker permit. At the first of the year these same individuals will be utilized as paid resources to erect and or construct a security fence along the Arizona/Mexico border. Upon completion of their services they will then be granted temporary residence contigent upon them completing all the necessary requirements to complete the naturalization process.
If they indeed want to secure the border, want anmesty and are non-criminal illegal immigrants (likely some will not turn out because they are felons with warrants) then here is an opportunity to be part of the solution rather than expecting to be given a free ride.
It's a rough draft. I'm at work and have little time to compose more but go ahead and run with it.
BTW - **** Steve Nash!
Look at all these little kids takin' care of the music biz don't their bus'ness take good care of me...
05-06-2010, 03:36 PM
05-06-2010, 03:54 PM
I couldn't disagree much with that either. It wouldn't happen though, that plan seems logical.
05-06-2010, 06:17 PM
The real world? You mean like Arizona? Where I am a native of and live?
Most of my life I have been in the restaurant industry and trust me dude, illegals are lowering the median wage of this state.
05-06-2010, 06:52 PM
Why are some people just so darn afraid of being out of "politically correct". These are the people who allow illegals to overrun a country, will run and hide in Canada if they get drafted for the military, and last but not least will scream and cry to the government when something isn't going their way....
Some of the biggest problems going on right now are happening because people don't have the balls anymore.... Stand up for what is RIGHT regardless if it is popular or not. Don't poon over when a problem arises because you are afraid of what someone might think of you....
I lived in El Paso for almost a year, for those who don't know that is the other side of Juarez Mexico, the #1 drug import site into Texas/USA....
I can say that the LEGAL immigrants there were DAM proud to be American, they kept the American and Texas flag flying very high. They were ashamed of what was going on "illegals", I swear the real Mexicans/Aztecan (alot of them are Aztec Indian decedent and are very pure in blood and proud in stature) spoke much better English there, had more pride for the America and its laws that the majority of people (white included...) that live here in Houston...
They worked hard for their rights to be here and they would not go to one of these protests, and why should they? Just because you are of the same race as someone doesn't mean you are bound to uphold all of their negativity does it? I am German, does that mean I should go on a hating, killing spree, does it mean I should support those who do????
Don't condemn people who are trying to actually create positive change in a country that is collapsing....
If you want to know the truth quit watching the news, and all the propaganda out there, take yourself a road trip/fly over the the place and see it for yourself.
As to how "close to home" the crime levels are as well.... Hows this for starters... Of one of the many weekend shootings that happens between the police and cartel, a friend of mine, father was shot. He had to drag him all the way across the bridge, to get him to a hospital.... The butt to this story, I was to be with him and his father that night (his father was the owner of a local rock band). Had I been there I could have been the one to take that bullet....
BTW that friend of mine was born here, his father had gone through the proper process to become an American citizen and had been for 30 years, oh yeah they voted for Bush. Go figure that the ones who choose to obey the law typically vote republican?
05-06-2010, 07:35 PM
I received this e-mail from a friend and fellow resident of Santa Cruz County . He is trustworthy and honest. I believe the content to be true. It gives me great cause for concern. I have sent a copy of this to Senator Kyl's office and Senator McCain. Unfortunately McCain must be contacted through a mail "form" and it's questionable if anyone will read it.
Forwarded to me by a friend who recently retired from border patrol.........
As you know, one of the local ranchers was murdered in Douglas two weeks ago. His funeral is tomorrow. I received three messages similar to the one below from different officers within the Rangers and law enforcement.
Yesterday afternoon I talked to another rancher near us who is a friend of ours and whose great grandfather started their ranch here in 1880. These are good people.
He told me what really happened out at the Krentz ranch and what you won't read in the papers. The Border Patrol is afraid of starting a small war between civilians here and the drug cartels in Mexico .
Bob Krentz was checking his water like he does every evening and came upon an illegal who was lying on the ground telling him he was sick. Bob called the Border Patrol and asked for a medical helicopter evac. As he turned to go back to his ATV he was shot in the side. The round came from down and angled up so they know the shooter was on the ground. Bob's firearm was in the ATV so he had no chance.
Wounded he called the Cochise County Sheriff and asked for help. Bleeding in the lungs he called his brother but the line was bad so he called his wife but again the line was bad. Several ranchers heard the radio call and drove to his location. Bob was dead by this time. The ranchers tracked the shooter 8 miles back towards Mexico and cornered him in a brushy draw. This was all at night. The Sheriff and Border Patrol arrived and told them not to go down and engage the murderer. They went around to the back side and if you can believe it the assassin managed to get by a BP helicopter and a Sheriff's posse and back to Mexico . So much for professional help when you need it.
One week before the murder Bob and his brother Phil (who I shoot with) hauled a huge quantity of drugs off the ranch that they found in trucks.
One week before that a rancher near Naco did the same thing. Two nights later gangs broke into his ranch house and beat him and his wife and told them that if they touched any drugs they found they would come back and kill them. The ranchers here deal with cut fences and haul drug deliveries off their ranches all the time. What ranchers think is that the drug cartels beat the one rancher and shot Bob because they wanted to send a message. Bob always gave food and water to illegals and so they think they sent the assassin to pose as an illegal who was hungry and thirsty knowing it would catch Bob off guard.
What is going on down here is NOT being reported. You need to tell people how bad it is along the border. Texas is worse. Near El Paso it's in a state of war. 5000 people were killed in Ciudad Juarez last year and it's over 2000 so far this year. Gun sales down here are through the roof and I get emails from people wanting firearms training.
Something has to be done but I don't hold out much hope. These gangs have groups in almost every city in the US . Please read below. This is serious business. The Barrio Azteca and their sub gangs are like Mexican Corporations and organized extremely well. If this doesn't get dealt with down here you guys will deal with it on your streets.
Look at all these little kids takin' care of the music biz don't their bus'ness take good care of me...
05-06-2010, 08:23 PM
05-06-2010, 09:14 PM
Unless you have a prescription for that Test, you my friend are a criminal. I am not claiming I don't break the law, I just don't act like I am innocent and then accuse others of being criminals by political association.My plan was:
Week 1 Test E 400 mg + Havoc 40mg
Week 2 Test E 400 mg + Havoc 50mg
Week 3 Test E 400 mg + Havoc 50mg
Week 4 Test E 400 mg + Havoc 50mg
Week 5 Test E 500 mg + Havoc 50mg
Week 6 Test E 500 mg
Week 7 Test E 500 mg
Week 8 Test E 500 mg
Week 9 Test E 500 mg
Week 10 Test E 500 mg
Week 11 Test E 500 mg
Week 12 Test E 500 mg
05-06-2010, 09:18 PM
Also, it is obvious that the illegals lower the median wage. What are you trying to prove by this. If you understand what a median is, then you will see how a group making significantly less will drive down the median. This proves nothing against my statements.
I really feel you are picking the side line arguments.
05-06-2010, 09:18 PM
Upholding the constitution is only acceptable if it feels good and people hold us in their highest esteem.
What a crock of ****. If I recall men and women died for this country and for our Constitution. I imagine that may have been a bit inconvenient.
God forbid your pocket book should suffer because you stand up for and support your Constitution.
05-06-2010, 10:14 PM
Are you aware that the country most offended by this new bill, Mexico has and enforces their immigration laws with 2-10 years in prison and they are required to prosecute. Yet they are screaming that we want to do so...
I also believe we have our low income workers right here in the country. They are in prison and owe a debt to society. As part of rehabilitation ALL PRISONERS should be forced to work a 40 hour week in a low-moderate skill associated job. Refusal to do so should automatically result in a stay of any possibility of parole because without developing work ethic they have not been rehabilitated at all. The prisons should be used for manufacturing generic products to be used for people on welfare systems, as well as other mundane items of gross consumer consumption. Upon release they could have letters of recommendation regarding work ethic, leadership ability and any other asset that they displayed during their sentence. Learned skills would make them more likely to get jobs and keep them when they get out. On top of that the work would cover the cost of keeping them in prison. Heck make the commissary and food on a pay scale too so they have to budget the money you work harder and better you get more in your commissary the better food and product you can get while in lock up.
Far too many people whine about the Civil rights of prisoners who have violated others rights to get put into prisons in the first place. I went to jail, I worked on a pea farm to get my time reduced. There are work programs however they need to be required. Being a functional and productive worker should be a requirement for any prisoner before any possibility of parole. If you have the right to oppress others and take away from the quality of life you have the right to be forced to work manual labor jobs until your DEBT TO SOCIETY has been repaid and you have proven you are functional enough to hold a job once released.
On top of that unemployment would take care of the rest of the jobs nobody wants to do. Pay them the same amount they get now according to previous salary, but make them do labor to earn the unemployment rights. No free rides people no free rides. You can make that 12 an hour but not sitting at home collecting a check going on and sabotaging an interview every week or two... Make them show proof of an interview for time you take off to interview for a job to get paid for that time... Simple as that. You don't wanna work you don't wanna get paid. People need to be accountable for themselves. It is ridiculous how no one is accountable for themselves anymore. There should not be ANY entitlement programs that can sustain a family indefinitely that does not require them to get off their ass and work for it.
That would take care of so much of the monetarily detrimental side of illegal's being sent home and free up government money for other things like educating our youth to lessen poverty levels of future generations.
There is no definite clear cut answer but there is obviously a problem and sweeping it under the table is not the solution. Lots of great ideas, but some control is definitely needed.
As far as race goes I am so tired of that crap. I am not racist, most of my family is integrated with blacks and hispanics and I love and adore everyone of them. To everyone else Whites are racist against everyone anytime a political matter comes up. However when a person of color is a racist it isn't called racism. It is called reverse racism. Are you kidding me??? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life. Reverse racism would be that they love all people of a different race blindly ignorant of any personal attribute possessed by the individuals with in. Because that would be the reverse or opposite of racism. So just call it what it is, they are racist too. White's don't own the market on racism anymore. I doubt we are even the majority anymore when you count all of the separate minorities together. So then you look at affirmative action, all things being equal you must resort to racism to place a person. We have 8 whites 5 blacks an Indian and 4 Hispanics. According to our ratio we have to hire the Indian applicant even though we didn't feel he was the best fit. ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? We are far along enough to recognize this as racism in and of itself. Why is discrimination okay against whites in that position? Equality is as big now as it is ever going to be. Don't we have a Middle Eastern/Black President? A fact that makes me proud even if I don't agree with all of his politics. That is the highest office in the friggin WORLD and we finally have reached a point of equality that he was able to be elected. I can not tell you how good of a thing I think that is regardless of the fact I don't agree with many of his political views. I am an independent and think both sides have a lot of great ideas as well as ridiculous ones if you are wondering. I like to make my decision based on my thoughts and not a party's belief system.
As far as profiling goes, yeah people profile... I hate to be the voice of reason but profiling is there because people fit a profile... Does that mean that everyone within that race is a certain way. No. Does it mean there are common generalities that anyone aware of their surroundings can easily notice. Yes. Go to any comedy show and listen to the nonstop jokes. Blacks Hispanics, whites, middle eastern Indians dogging on their own race about the very same things being complained about as profiling. Interesting they can pick at themselves for all of the same things that "profiling" supposedly does but since it is them making the observation it is ok. BULLCRAP! It isn't discrimination to recognize someone is different, or that there are trends of characteristics in certain demographics.
I am all for profiling if you see someone dressed like a thug, loose pants, oversized shirt, race not even considered I profile them as a gangster OR a gangster wannabe. If you dress like a gang banger don't get upset if you are treated like one. If you come up to me in skid row clothes and smelling like you haven't bathed in a while I will assume you are homeless. If you come to live in the country and can't speak the language, don't get upset if someone thinks you are illegal. Profiling is a valuable tool. Profiling is pro-active if you don't profile, or notice trends how can you capitalize on the information? In business the best practice is to research / follow trends and decide what course of action to take based off of that information. Why then would the same practice not be the best way to locate criminals? Without profiling we are just waiting for something bad to happen. Our court systems are here to prove the guilt of a person via trial. The officer does not make the decision of guilt only an assessment of probable cause. I assure you many more criminals have been caught from profiling than innocent people have been convicted. I am a bald man with a goatee and have been this way for 15 years. I lived in Pasadena during the height of the gang days. I got lots of profiling then because at first only bangers and thugs were doing it. I knew I looked like a thug and expected to be pulled over or questioned on occasion because of it. Not because I was doing something wrong but because I fit a profile. They stopped me harassed me, checked me out and as long as I came up clean I was on my way.
The crimes they mention here in this bill are all valid crimes that fit the profile of typical undocumented illegal's soliciting work and what not. Cars stopping roadside to pick them up, guys standing in Home Depot parking lots all day... those are the crimes they are watching for. So they will get more illegal's, hookers and johns with by exercising the law. Do I think that there are racially motivated police who will abuse this law? Absolutely but they are already abusing their power so this doesn't change it. The bad are already doing bad, and the good will keep doing good for society. There are far to many spin doctors and victim minded people use profiling as some type of scapegoat. If you got pulled over for fitting a profile and WOW you had drugs on you. You still cry profiling because If you didn't get pulled over you wouldn't have gotten caught. How about owning up to the fact you were profiled because your actions and actions of others like you CREATED the profile... You did have the drugs just like the profile he used to identify you as a possible criminal... Not only that you reinforced the profile... Fugging victims... None of these "profiles" would exist if there weren't enough people doing things to create a noticeable trend. I include whites in this too. I went to Nuevo Laredo that is a Mexican border town. I am kind of muscular I don't know if you noticed. Well guess what I was stopped and strip searched and asked specifically if I had steroids when I came back. Why do you think that was? Is it because it was my turn in the random line? HMMMM I don't think that was it... Is it because I was a muscular gringo in a border town where guys built like me come to get steroids regularly and there was at least a decent likelihood I might have some. I will put my money on the second option. I will also tell you if I was that border patrol officer I WOULD have stopped me and searched me too. I consider that a job well done. Not an offense towards me and all other muscular males, but perfect use of the profile of a possible steroid seeker.
People's feelings getting hurt has become far too important in this country. I am so sick of political correctness. Profiling is a valuable tool, and when not used by a bad person is truly invaluable. However there will always be douche bags that abuse any power available to them because they are oppressors. I don't really care if it hurt your feelings that you were pulled over and the officer checked your creds, if you are legit 9999 times out of 10000 you will have absolutely no problem. Every once in a while even a legit person will have a discrepancy, that is collateral damage and is minute compared to the greater good that comes from profiling. Money gets people off not race, special interest groups get people off not race. I had a black friend of mine back in my rough days caught with 20 rocks of crack. With a court appointed attorney he served 3 days and got 10 years probation. So excessive punishment based on race does not run across the board either. He deserved some jail time for sure. Same as If I was juicing and I got caught I deserve jail time. If I illegally invade another country and falsify documents I deserve jail time. Heck as an American citizen if I forge government documents I have committed a major offense. So why should these people who have done a combination of those things be free to keep on keeping on just because they are a different color or from a poor area? Would it be justified then if I couldn't pay my bills for me to enter into your home illegally and take up residence there as long as I am not actually intending to do you harm? I think not. So let's not act like it is okay as a nation to accept the exact same behavior from illegal alien's. Oops I mean Undocumented Immigrant or whatever the stupid PC word is for them now. Why the hell do we have to be so considerate of them they have a PC name to refer to them. WTF? They enter our country illegally, from other countries, but we have to call them Undocumented Immigrants so as not to offend them? Where I come from someone trespasses knowingly where they are not supposed to be you fill their ass with buckshot or whoop that azz... You definitely don't give them free healthcare and let them play in your front lawn...
We need to be a little more real and stop walking on eggshells over peoples feelings. If they feel we are discriminating against them they are correct. We are discriminating from the people who belong here and those who don't. Discrimination has become a bad word and it isn't one. We discriminate any time we notice a difference and make a decision based on that difference. That is part of the process of decision making.
Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
05-06-2010, 11:43 PM
Now I remember why I stay out of the politics section lol.
I have a generalized rant that I wish to relinquish and somebody has to break it down sentence by sentence and think I was referring/directed it towards them....
BTW Planning out a cycle and doing a cycle of illegal drugs are 2 different things.
Due to me still being to ***** to get hold of real gear I have decided to completely put it off and just use my legal stuff I do have. I actually pride myself in the fact that I have never taken any illegal drug (as of yet). This does not mean that I may never do real gear however until I have I am clean...
05-06-2010, 11:52 PM
I also didn't feel that I was directly attacked, rather your rant generalized on the opposition to your feelings, which is a contrast to the generalization I think is being placed on illegals.
05-07-2010, 12:05 AM
In regards to David's post about the man who was murdered:
This is an extremely terrible case. My condolences. My argument isn't that we should allow open borders. Rather, we need much stronger enforcement of our borders.
The situation involving the drugs is another that requires debate. We are, as a country, fueling this war. No matter which side of the drug war you are on, I believe both sides can admit it is a failed attempt. The demand we create here in the states makes drugs a big big business. With the prohibition as it stands, we create a scenario very similar to the prohibition of alcohol. The profit goes into the hands of organized crime, and they will stop at nothing to protect that profit.
I am not to sure how any of you are familiar with Ron Paul, a libertarian who has attempted to get on the presidential ballot as a Republican. His stance on the drug war is very similar to mine. This is a perfect example to as to why I wouldn't want to be labeled a left wing nut, I am much closer to middle-left then extreme left.
05-07-2010, 12:39 AM
To Mr. Kleen:
I agree with alot of what you said, and disagree with some as well.
The prison reform:
I completely would love to see that action played out. It would work in theory. However, extreme leftists would be all over this like flies on ****, and it would never be enacted. Unfortunately, that is the reality of the situation.
I tend to disagree on your stance on unemployment. A person who was gone and received a masters degree, worked for a company for 35 years and is one day laid off, does not need to be picking peas for his unemployment check. The unemployment system is funded through specific taxes. The government has an insurance tax that companies pay, and that money is directly for that matter. If people had to work for that check, then there is no real reason that businesses must suffer the excess tax. Now on that note someone who collects unemployment for years and fakes job interviews, etc. is an abuse to the system and the reason why the system fails. In theory unemployment is supposed to be a fixed short term solution. Instead, and especially in this economic environment, benefits are continually increased.
I agree and disagree on your thoughts on race. I agree in the fact that not all, you, me and in sure most if not all involved in this conversation are not racist. My point is that this system will be abused by those who are and in power. I understand racist police already exists, but this gives them more power.
The only point I must extremely disagree with is how you are ok with the profiling and being treated differently. I can be walking around at 295lbs 7% body fat (haha..yea right) and don't need to be accused of steroid use every time I am near a cop. This is leading towards the idea of a police state, and our liberties of this country are meant to protect us from such accusation. If I dress like a stoner, wear a bob marley t-shirt and have dread locks, but give no indication that I am carrying marijuana, a cop does NOT have the right to search my car based on me fitting a profile. This is illegal search and seizure. Unless I give direct indication that I am breaking a law, an officer should have no right what so ever, to treat me as a criminal.
05-07-2010, 03:51 PM
Dr's can now be drafted with the new heatlhcare takeover.
Me using roids does not affect your pocketbook or your right to wear an american flag on your T-shirt.
My racist comment was due to the fact that the liberal media calls everyone that does not agree with them a racist. They dont know the real definition so I'm going with the fad of being a racist. Even tea partiers are racist and they just want lower taxes.
05-07-2010, 04:11 PM
To the roid comment, neither does an illegal who works, pays for thier own products, and accepts no handouts. I think people need to stop thinking every illegal is a freeloading criminal drug cartel.
I hope you don't associate yourself with the Tea Party. The individuals in that group make me want to ****ing slam my head through a wall. It's funny that people like Glen Beck (I shudder to mention him) refer to those not paying attention to his daring government discovieries as "sheeple," yet the tea party seems to walk and drool to the tune of fox news like its a cult. Half of them don't know thier heads from thier ass when it comes to politics, and the intelligence levels of most of the crowd speaks for itself. I hope for them to spend less time in front of fox news and political marches and more time getting a damn education.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPMjC9mq5Y"]YouTube- 9.12 DC TEA PARTY - MARCH FOOTAGE WITH INTERVIEWS[/nomedia]
And this is by far my favorite:
Calling these people a political movement is an insult to America. This is just what happens when Jerry Springer goes off the air.
05-07-2010, 04:12 PM
suck this liberal weeners calling tea partiers racists
National Black Republican Association
Democrats Falsely Accuse Tea Party Activists of Racism
That is an all black website.... go eat your hearts out
05-07-2010, 04:16 PM
05-07-2010, 04:37 PM
I do not have a degree in economics, I have taken micro and macro as part of degree requirements for my degree in business management which will be completed in December of this year(34 is a little late for college, I know).I also have held management positions for about half of my 18 years in restaurants although now am a server as that is the best $ for a full-time college student with the least time and effort required from me.
My point is this: Illegalsare a drain on this states economy, if you don't think so just Google search the demographics of the prisons and county jails (not to mention the hospital statistics I gave you earlier).
Illegals do bring down wages in AZ, I know this first hand, the cooks in my restaurant work for peanuts and guess what:three out of four are illegals. The farming example is a perfect explanation of what is wrong with Arizonans working-class wages.
"Reasonable suspicion" as stated by the bill doesn't directly lead to racial profiling. Think about this: A person gets pulled over for a traffic violation with sonoran license plates, no AZ drivers license and no proof of citizenship/work visa. The cop then arrests the man on suspicion of being in the country illegally. Whats wrong with that?
waddaya mean "sideline arguments?" I thought the issue was how much does our country rely on illegal labor? The answer is too much, for the added expenses, at least.
05-07-2010, 05:50 PM
There is no need to try to one up each other education wise. This is an adult debate and shouldn't turn to a my **** is bigger then your **** conversation. (..ill pardon myself on that for my tea party cracks - but i cant help it). My comment about what your angle of the restaurant industry was just a matter of honestly assessing what your experience with running a business is. In my, non business running experience, which is rather influenced by being very close to many business owners (including my own boss) as well as professors, economic theory is not a direct translation.
I do think Illegals are a drain, in many of the matters we are discussing. However, there are many illegals who are not and thier hard work supports many things we take for granted. This country needs immigration reform. It shouldn't be a drawn out, expensive process. All our relatives (minue natives) came here for a purpose, opportunity, escaping oppresion, etc. Unfortuantely, with strict immigration laws that stop a hardworking trustworthy person from entering the country, we no longer offer that.
I still am not to sure what the argument is for the lower median income. As I said, if you introduce a bunch of low numbers to a sample of higher numbers, the median will be lowered. This is basicly by definition.
Because reasonable suspicion can be anything to anyone. As somone mentioned here, encouraging stereotype profiling, I can NOT be searched for steroids if I am wearing a shirt that says "I support steroid reform." "Reasonable" is not an accurate description. Especially when you are considering putting someone in jail.
The sideline argument going here is that I am now defending illegals, which I don't really care to. I don't think thier needs to be defense of an illegal. My main argument was against how we are handling the problem. So althought after re-reading my sideline argument it was pointed at you, that was my mistake, it was more so the discussion in general.
05-07-2010, 06:00 PM
Thank GOD you live around of AMERICANS of MEXICAN ancestry ,if you live there you must like mexicans lol!!!
05-07-2010, 07:47 PM
05-07-2010, 08:03 PM
Amnesty is not the answer, neither is rounding all illegals up and throwing them in jail
The 1070 bill is a good start, and it is under such scrutiny that if any illegal is arrested and has a legitimate case of racial profiling, it will be HUGE to the media. The police do not want that so they are less likely to racially profile.
My argument for the lowered median income is, funny enough, the exact same as the south park episode you quoted in your first post. They did take our jobs, at a much lower rate of pay and it creates higher poverty levels.
05-07-2010, 08:37 PM
Ill both accept and not accept your job positioning. I accept that an illegal working as a cook, when a legal would want the position is not fair to a legal resident of this country. However, the illegals that are willing to perform near slave labor, on products that depend on the low wage to remain profitable, probably are not taking to much work away from the legal residents who feel above those positions.
05-07-2010, 09:50 PM
HeretoStudy. I definitely have no hard feelings. I enjoy a good debate and do not assume I am infallible so educated debate invigorates me. I was in Mexico and it was the Mexican government that did that. All though crossing the border customs has the right to search you randomly.
This is a response to your comments but not directed at you. Then some of it is just that I got going and couldn't stop.
I do think profiling is a good reason to pull someone over WHEN combined with ANY suspicious behavior. However they still can not search you without your permission or a warrant even with reasonable cause. They can however hold you while they obtain a warrant. They can and always have been able to check your ID if you are in public, which is a very loose meaning. If you step outside of your house but are still on your property this is considered public. One reason I will never step outside my home to talk to a police officer. I learned that from my partying days. You are required to show your ID when asked and can be placed in jail if not. This is true for Americans and Illegals alike. The big difference here is that they can send them for deportation now. Before when an officer picked up an illegal they just went to jail slept there and went back to their American home. Many times the officers knew they were illegals and only wrote tickets to avoid paperwork, and clogging up jails even more. Of course the illegals never go to court so no big deal a warrant is issued. They get caught they stay over night and once again back home. Now the difference is that the home they would go back to would be in Mexico.
Admittedly a lot of the illegals get false documents and pay taxes they will never get a return on and social security to fake numbers which they will never receive the benefits. I would be more than apt to say the government knows exactly who they are but chooses to allow them to stay because of that fact. I am also aware of the sales tax they pay on all purchases that generates money for the government. However the drain on the system is more in the lines of medical, educational and imprisonment costs.
I completely agree with you on illegal search and seizure however once again having to show valid state identification has been on the books forever. If you are unable to provide identification you can expect whether you are white, black, green, or purple to have to empty your pockets when you get put in the back of the car.
Here is something to ponder though I know you said every child deserves a good education including the illegals or anchor babies. Ideally I would be inclined to agree until it causes a problem for me and my children. When I tried to get my daughter into the public school pre-k I was told she did not qualify because she could already speak English, and the program was mostly intended for Non-English speaking children. This was the same year MY school taxes were hiked enough to raise my mortgage 45 dollars a month... One of the selling points to us was that there would be a public pre-k made available. So now I can no longer support that thought process. I am paying into a program that my own child can not take part in because she is an English speaking citizen. However I did not have the money to put her in a private Pre-K so she suffered directly due to this problem. At some point you just have to say sorry but it is me or you and you got to go or do it right.
We have homeowners associations fining people for flying the American flag because people from other nations might get offended. F*CK THAT SH*T!!!! You chose to come to this country because it was better than yours. Point blank you can't argue that Mr. Illegal. You better fly our fuggin flag or fuggin go home if you are that loyal to your country.
Some kids were sent home from college for wearing a tshirt with the American flag on it on Cinco de Mayo that is May 5th for those of you not living in the land between nations. IE any sothern border state. You don't have to take my word for it. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36981179...o_bay_area_ca/ That is truly disgusting and I GUARANTY no Hispanic or any other nationality will be sent home for wearing a shirt with their country flag on it on Independence Day.
We used to be proud to be Americans, we didn't apologize for it. We stood alpha male at the top of the hill and said hey I am no bully but I AM THE BADDEST SUM BITCH AROUND!!! Don't mess with me and I wont mess with you. You need my help I will come over there and support you and not ask for anything in return.
Now it is Oh no, I am so sorry did I offend you when I said Mexican instead of Hispanic or Hispanic instead of Latino. Oh you are an African American the fug you are!!!! You are an American with dark skin! Same with Latin Americans sorry get over it your not Latin American you are American damn it!!! We all need to grow some testes and get over it. I don't say I am a Spanish American because I am of Spanish decent. I am a proud ass American who will fight for my country and what it used to stand for, and what I hope it stands for again some day.
Do I think that this is the BEST way to handle this? No I don't but I AM ECSTATIC that something is actually being done. The pendulum swings far right and far left before finding its resting place in the middle ground. The complacency was one side, and this is the other side of that swing. It means things are in motion... That is what excites me. We need some kinetic energy followed by inertia with this situation. In other words the ball needs to keep rolling, we can change the speed or direction to some degree but at least the pendulum is no longer resting on the side of complacency.
Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
05-07-2010, 09:52 PM
05-07-2010, 10:02 PM
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