Interesting article for value added tax

[roids1]

Interesting arguement for a value added tax. Not quite right-wing enough for my tastes, but great insights into the mess the messiah's admin are making with the economy and healthcare.

Have at it!

[rambo679]

The problem with a VAT tax is that there is nothing to stop congress, unless the 16th amendment is repealed, from enacting it alongside the income tax as opposed to replacing it.

[rambo679]

Not quite, China is lowering their corporate tax and Russia has a flat tax. But I get your point.

[GuyverX]

This why we need the fair tax law. It would eliminate alot of problems and tha govt would get more money and americans would save more.. But its not fair to eliminate 200.000 irs jobs for this law...but it is ok to eliminate 5.5 million jobs for the new healthcare bill...which is so urgent we pass so we can cut all these jobs immediatly and pay for the 1.3 trillion it is goin to cost right away...so that it can be fully effective reform by 2019.. America is goin to become the new russia/china socialist hybrid...and americans will start immigrating to russia and china cuz it will be cheaper to live there.

Ironfists.
Interesting comment.
I remeber saying the exact same thing in a discussion about a year ago when the whole economic crunch thing was coming down.
Not as related to taxes but more so to the U.S. approaching the end of its "illusion" of glory days and going towards having only two classes.. the exceedingly rich and the extremely poor.

And that Americans would be running to cross the border to Mexico instead of them coming here anymore.
And the Mexican people laughing at the irony of the situation.

[roids1]

Ironfists.
Interesting comment.
I remeber saying the exact same thing in a discussion about a year ago when the whole economic crunch thing was coming down.
Not as related to taxes but more so to the U.S. approaching the end of its "illusion" of glory days and going towards having only two classes.. the exceedingly rich and the extremely poor.

And that Americans would be running to cross the border to Mexico instead of them coming here anymore.
And the Mexican people laughing at the irony of the situation.

Uhhhhh. I don't know about this scenario. Our economy sinking into the crapper doesn't somehow lift Mexico's out of the crapper. Two social classes, extremely rich, extremely poor, with no middle class describes just about all of Central and S.America pretty well right now. Don't get your hopes up just yet. Although, there may be plenty heading to Canada, EU, or Asia to look for jobs.

[CDB]

No type of tax reform is in the interest of the American people but one: cuts to existing taxes with equal and opposite cuts to spending to fund them. Any attempt at tax 'reform' merely shifts the burden around a little and makes some who used to be net payers net consumers, and vice versa. And unless spending is cut the over all trend is for an increase on everyone. The government can't be trusted with tax 'reform' because even if you find the reformed system temporarily to your liking, without spending cuts and without an actual cut in the power to tax, in the end what's left is a net increase in taxes on everyone and government spending.

There's one approach that works: cut or repeal existing taxes and decrease spending by the same amount.

[GuyverX]

Uhhhhh. I don't know about this scenario. Our economy sinking into the crapper doesn't somehow lift Mexico's out of the crapper. Two social classes, extremely rich, extremely poor, with no middle class describes just about all of Central and S.America pretty well right now. Don't get your hopes up just yet. Although, there may be plenty heading to Canada, EU, or Asia to look for jobs.

Trust... I am looking towards going to one of those myself. If things get too much worse.
A coworkers brother is in the medical field, come July of next year his position is being closed out here.
He either has to move to China or work for another company.
A lot of us might need to brush up on our foreign language skills though.
And soon.

[GuyverX]

No type of tax reform is in the interest of the American people but one: cuts to existing taxes with equal and opposite cuts to spending to fund them. Any attempt at tax 'reform' merely shifts the burden around a little and makes some who used to be net payers net consumers, and vice versa. And unless spending is cut the over all trend is for an increase on everyone. The government can't be trusted with tax 'reform' because even if you find the reformed system temporarily to your liking, without spending cuts and without an actual cut in the power to tax, in the end what's left is a net increase in taxes on everyone and government spending.

There's one approach that works: cut or repeal existing taxes and decrease spending by the same amount.

I do concur that the approach you presented at the end would be the most viable as far as easing the tax burden.

I can only see our government actually going with the net increase in taxe4s.

[CDB]

I can only see our government actually going with the net increase in taxe4s.

That's the problem, and why whenever they get worked up about 'tax reform' at any level of government, you should hold on to both your wallet and your balls. They'll be coming for one or both of those things. They have no incentive to 'reform' anything unless they're coming up short, which by definition means they're spending more than they're taking in. That's why, kooks like Ron Paul and myself aside, anyone who calls for 'tax reform' is really calling for a net tax increase.

[rambo679]

As long as the government can monetize the debt it will never decrease spending, no matter how much they cut taxes. For example, California being a state government with no Federal Reserve was forced to finally make the "painful" cuts when the voters rejected the proposition to extend the tax increases. As long as there is a federal reserve the federal government will never be forced into a corner enough to really cut spending.

[enswalters]

The problem with our current tax system is that it's too complicated, too burdensome, and too easy to cheat. Look at the Walton family, heirs to the Walmart fortune with a net worth of over $100 billion. They have lobbied hard to keep tax loopholes open that will allow them to avoid estate taxes.

The rich are getting richer paying low capital gains taxes, while hard-working middle class Americans are getting ripped off. Warren Buffett, the second wealthiest American (behind Bill Gates), even complained that he pays a lower rate of tax than his receptionist!!

I think the actually numbers were something like 18% for Warren Buffett, and 30% for his receptionist.

I'm not some left wing liberal who wants to give everyone a handout, but at the same time there has to be some sort of fairness to the tax system. When the wealthiest 1% of Americans saw their income levels rise higher than at any point in the past 20 years, while their income tax rates dropped to the lowest levels in 18 years.

Something is definitely wrong with this picture. If we don't do something soon, there will be no middle class left.

[CDB]

I'm not some left wing liberal who wants to give everyone a handout, but at the same time there has to be some sort of fairness to the tax system. When the wealthiest 1% of Americans saw their income levels rise higher than at any point in the past 20 years, while their income tax rates dropped to the lowest levels in 18 years.

Something is definitely wrong with this picture. If we don't do something soon, there will be no middle class left.

The problem is their wealth rising has nothing to do with taxes, it has to do with massive infusions of money and credit from the government. There is no such thing as a fair tax system. What's the 'fair' amount to take from anybody, rich or poor?

Here's the fair tax in almost everyone's opinion: "Let's get rid of the tax(es) I don't like and replace them with tax(es) I don't pay." Most people agree with that plan as 'fair'.

[EasyEJL]

As long as the government can monetize the debt it will never decrease spending, no matter how much they cut taxes. For example, California being a state government with no Federal Reserve was forced to finally make the "painful" cuts when the voters rejected the proposition to extend the tax increases. As long as there is a federal reserve the federal government will never be forced into a corner enough to really cut spending.

The problem is that they already are reaching the point of having a problem monetizing the debt. At this point its iffy who will "buy" the 2010 deficit (china will probably take 500 billion of it, but who will buy the other trillion?) and then forget 2011, even by then china is unlikely to be willing to take much

The problem with our current tax system is that it's too complicated, too burdensome, and too easy to cheat. Look at the Walton family, heirs to the Walmart fortune with a net worth of over $100 billion. They have lobbied hard to keep tax loopholes open that will allow them to avoid estate taxes.

The rich are getting richer paying low capital gains taxes, while hard-working middle class Americans are getting ripped off. Warren Buffett, the second wealthiest American (behind Bill Gates), even complained that he pays a lower rate of tax than his receptionist!!

I think the actually numbers were something like 18% for Warren Buffett, and 30% for his receptionist.

I'm not some left wing liberal who wants to give everyone a handout, but at the same time there has to be some sort of fairness to the tax system. When the wealthiest 1% of Americans saw their income levels rise higher than at any point in the past 20 years, while their income tax rates dropped to the lowest levels in 18 years.

Something is definitely wrong with this picture. If we don't do something soon, there will be no middle class left.

Do you think doubling the income of the bottom 5% of income would create jobs, or that top 1%? Do you think their net value rise is due to them having cash in hand and gold bars or to them investing in stocks and companies and businesses which create new jobs for the other 99% of the population?

And Warren Buffet says stuff like that, but partially its because he has no "income" as such that he takes in actual pay, he lives super frugally and its all reinvested. So his cash take home pay is possibly below his secretary's...

And as far as estate tax. Please. You pay taxes when the money is earned, why should you pay taxes again when its given to your family? How many times should that same dollar get taxed?

[EasyEJL]

we need to be concerned about what is going to happen when china realizes we have spent their money like a ponzy scheme and they want it all back in one payment...

nothing, because thats not the terms of the agreement. So long as we are paying interest they won't do crap. They may not loan us any more $, but thats all they can do

we would be screwed and they would nuke us off the face of this planet...

no they wouldn't because then a) they lose every cent they loaned us and b) then they all die as well since we would nuke back. Honestly I don't know where people get ideas like this

why you think gold is going up...because realistically on the global market the dollar is really 40-50 cents right now and falling..

because gold used to be the worldwide reserve currency, then the US dollar became the worldwide reserve currency and as the US dollar appears less and less stable it makes more sense for countries to start looking at returning to a gold backed standard.

[EasyEJL]

The point is that the loan for the deficit has terms, and just because the chinese get worried about it doesn't mean they can change the terms. So sure they aren't happy, but that just means they stop buying the debt. Once they do that, then either our lawmakers will be forced to clip spending and raise taxes, or just ludicrously raise taxes (by an order of double what they collect now) or they'll just keep printing money and inflation will spiral into the 20% range.

[CDB]

The point is that the loan for the deficit has terms, and just because the chinese get worried about it doesn't mean they can change the terms.

Yes they can. Just like we can repudiate our debt or inflate the **** out of the dollar so we're paying them back in devalued currency. Either way the rest of your post is on, but don't fall for the myth that debts between nations are the same as debts between individuals. There are no contracts between nations that an army or a bad hair day won't dissolve if one or both nations feel it's in their interest to do so.

[EasyEJL]

Yes they can. Just like we can repudiate our debt or inflate the **** out of the dollar so we're paying them back in devalued currency. Either way the rest of your post is on, but don't fall for the myth that debts between nations are the same as debts between individuals. There are no contracts between nations that an army or a bad hair day won't dissolve if one or both nations feel it's in their interest to do so.

True, but thats what the world bank and IMF are there for, to help mediate in that sort of thing if one party gets pissy but the problem is if we either did repudiate the debt or let inflation go hogwild we'd have to already have a balanced budget because nobody else would loan to us either...

[CDB]

True, but thats what the world bank and IMF are there for, to help mediate in that sort of thing if one party gets pissy but the problem is if we either did repudiate the debt or let inflation go hogwild we'd have to already have a balanced budget because nobody else would loan to us either...

True enough. I think the over riding point is either way we go, we're ****ed.

[EasyEJL]

Yeah, its just a question of are we ****ed in 2010, 2011 or 2012?

[CDB]

Yeah, its just a question of are we ****ed in 2010, 2011 or 2012?

I'm thinking 2011. First quarter 2010 is going to be 'unexpectedly' slow is my guess, with the 'jobless recover' continuing until people realize GDP doesn't mean **** and maybe even a second or third round of major banking issues hits, at which point it's hello banana republic.