Obama awarded 2009 Nobel Peace Prize

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    It doesnt matter if he is being awarded as Senator, Citizen or President.
    I think it does, in a technical sense. Clearly, I am speculating here, but I have the feeling you are, too.

    He is and will be a sitting president when the award is confirmed and disbursed
    I believe this is only relevant, if he will receive the award in his capacity as the President of the United States, and not as a citizen. Again, a technicality.

    ...
    and he was put in for said award after his presidency commenced.
    Now, this is pure speculation, and you know it. The nominations ended February 1, 2009. We have no way of knowing when the last nomination for Mr. Obama reached the Nobel Committee. October 2008? November 2008? December 2008? January 2009? We simply do not know, and may not know for another 50 years.

    But I agree with you that it will be interesting to see how it plays out, since the majority of congress will not bat an eyelash because of who is the sitting president.
    If they bat an eyelash, as you put it, it might be because the technicalities are not as clear cut as some think.
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  2. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I must ask IL... where is it you gain a predominant amount of your information?
    For me, it's AnabolicMinds.
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  3. Information is everywhere; school library; POST library; and if it is about anything in regards to the Military - usually first hand.
    Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I must ask IL... where is it you gain a predominant amount of your information?

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Iron Lungz View Post
    Information is everywhere; school library; POST library; and if it is about anything in regards to the Military - usually first hand.
    Why?
    You said sadly most people gain their info from Google. Which sounded like their knowledge is less than. When books are years out of date and most studies are not published in paper form... it seemed somewhat condescending.
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    I think it does, in a technical sense. Clearly, I am speculating here, but I have the feeling you are, too.


    I believe this is only relevant, if he will receive the award in his capacity as the President of the United States, and not as a citizen. Again, a technicality.



    Now, this is pure speculation, and you know it. The nominations ended February 1, 2009. We have no way of knowing when the last nomination for Mr. Obama reached the Nobel Committee. October 2008? November 2008? December 2008? January 2009? We simply do not know, and may not know for another 50 years.


    If they bat an eyelash, as you put it, it might be because the technicalities are not as clear cut as some think.
    Read the article and law... the President cannot take a gift at ANYTIME during his presidency from a foreign affair... even if it was for his capacity as a citizen. There is no speculation here, it is looked upon as a bribe. The gift become part of the state and he can purchase it back at market value if he wishes.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Read the article and law... the President cannot take a gift at ANYTIME during his presidency from a foreign affair... even if it was for his capacity as a citizen. There is no speculation here, it is looked upon as a bribe. The gift become part of the state and he can purchase it back at market value if he wishes.
    Usually, the entire idea of such laws is to avoid the possibility of conflict of interest. Many companies also have something similar. Even if we regard this award as a gift, the awarding Committee is not a lobbying institution, and does not seek to influence the political or economic course of any particular country for the benefit of its home government. In any case, I'll be interested to see how this unfolds, but I highly doubt there will be any drama associated with receiving the award.
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  7. Negative. When someone gains knowledge from Wiki, or other user-edited resource sites, that is what I am referring to. Also, the digital library that I use is as up-to-data as the day is now. Luckily, I still can use those resources from West Point, as well as the other University's that I've attended/attend. Condescending? No. But thanks for asking.
    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    You said sadly most people gain their info from Google. Which sounded like their knowledge is less than. When books are years out of date and most studies are not published in paper form... it seemed somewhat condescending.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Iron Lungz View Post
    Negative. When someone gains knowledge from Wiki, or other user-edited resource sites, that is what I am referring to. Also, the digital library that I use is as up-to-data as the day is now. Luckily, I still can use those resources from West Point, as well as the other University's that I've attended/attend. Condescending? No. But thanks for asking.
    Okay, then we can agree your comment on Google was wrong.
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  9. Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    Usually, the entire idea of such laws is to avoid the possibility of conflict of interest. Many companies also have something similar. Even if we regard this award as a gift, the awarding Committee is not a lobbying institution, and does not seek to influence the political or economic course of any particular country for the benefit of its home government. In any case, I'll be interested to see how this unfolds, but I highly doubt there will be any drama associated with receiving the award.
    I agree it will be interesting to see how it plays out... see if our elected leaders will have the balls to actually enforce a law they penned.
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Well I can name a few reasons. Firstly is Article 1, section 9 stating that any foreign gift will not be accepted without first having full consent of the US congress... which has not happened. Also the Foreign Gifts and Decorations Act of 1966 and further legislation passed in 1977 has a big hand in denying this gift from being received. So as people are fawning over President Obama and honeymooning on his rhetoric, he is in clear violation of the law.
    Just for clarity of the conversation, Art. 1, Sec.9 - the so-called, "Emolument Clause" - prohibits, primarily, the accepting of titles, emoluments, and "gifts" from any "king, prince, or foreign state". Or, more broadly, foreign entities which may be regarded as states and/or state apparatuses. As well, § 7342 (the FDGA) prohibits the tendering of "gifts" and/or "decorations" from the following sources:

    (2) “foreign government” means—

    (A) any unit of foreign governmental authority, including any foreign national, State, local, and municipal government;
    (B) any international or multinational organization whose membership is composed of any unit of foreign government described in subparagraph (A); and
    (C) any agent or representative of any such unit or such organization, while acting as such;
    As such, it is a difficult argument to characterize the Nobel Prize Committee by this particular rubric. However, in the case one makes that argument, the definitions set out in (c)(1)(A)(B) render it possible to accept the Nobel Prize:

    (c)

    (1) The Congress consents to—
    (A) the accepting and retaining by an employee of a gift of minimal value tendered and received as a souvenir or mark of courtesy; and
    (B) the accepting by an employee of a gift of more than minimal value when such gift is in the nature of an educational scholarship or medical treatment or when it appears that to refuse the gift would likely cause offense or embarrassment or otherwise adversely affect the foreign relations of the United States, except that—
    Now, without superfluously defining what "gift" and "minimum value" denote in the FDGA, I feel confident in saying that the acceptance of the Nobel Prize does not fall beyond the parameters of either Article 9, or the FDGA.

    The issue of whether or not Obama is meritorious in this instance notwithstanding, it would certainly be legal to accept the award; and, as far as I know, the amendments to the FDGA in 1977, 1978, 1986, 2002, 2004 and 2006 do not alter the legality of his (potential) acceptance.

    Personally, and making my decision based upon even modern renditions of the Prize Committee's criterion, I do not think he deserves this award per se; however, speaking strictly from the standpoint of culpability, he is doing nothing "illegal" by accepting the gift.

  11. Thanks for the footwork, Mullet! I was too lazy to look up the relevant law(s). Iron Lungz' fault!
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    Thanks for the footwork, Mullet! I was too lazy to look up the relevant law(s). Iron Lungz' fault!
    Luckily, my program is a synthesis of both Common and Civil Law, focusing on international legality, so I happened to have my so-called "dignitaries bible" with me which covers international diplomacy.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Luckily, my program is a synthesis of both Common and Civil Law, focusing on international legality, so I happened to have my so-called "dignitaries bible" with me which covers international diplomacy.
    Awesome! My instinct told me the award might not be classifiable as a gift from a lobbying-prone entity, thus making it difficult to argue for the existence of a potential conflict of interest. I did not see any illegality in Mr. Obama accepting the award. You provided the legal foundation on which my conjecture rested. Thanks!
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  14. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Just for clarity of the conversation, Art. 1, Sec.9 - the so-called, "Emolument Clause" - prohibits, primarily, the accepting of titles, emoluments, and "gifts" from any "king, prince, or foreign state". Or, more broadly, foreign entities which may be regarded as states and/or state apparatuses. As well, § 7342 (the FDGA) prohibits the tendering of "gifts" and/or "decorations" from the following sources:



    As such, it is a difficult argument to characterize the Nobel Prize Committee by this particular rubric. However, in the case one makes that argument, the definitions set out in (c)(1)(A)(B) render it possible to accept the Nobel Prize:



    Now, without superfluously defining what "gift" and "minimum value" denote in the FDGA, I feel confident in saying that the acceptance of the Nobel Prize does not fall beyond the parameters of either Article 9, or the FDGA.

    The issue of whether or not Obama is meritorious in this instance notwithstanding, it would certainly be legal to accept the award; and, as far as I know, the amendments to the FDGA in 1977, 1978, 1986, 2002, 2004 and 2006 do not alter the legality of his (potential) acceptance.

    Personally, and making my decision based upon even modern renditions of the Prize Committee's criterion, I do not think he deserves this award per se; however, speaking strictly from the standpoint of culpability, he is doing nothing "illegal" by accepting the gift.
    The committee is selected by the Norwegian parliament making it an extension of foreign state.



    (A) any unit of foreign governmental authority, including any foreign national, State, local, and municipal government;
    (B) any international or multinational organization whose membership is composed of any unit of foreign government described in subparagraph (A); and
    (C) any agent or representative of any such unit or such organization, while acting as such.

    So is the Nobel Committee an agent or representative of the Parliament that appointed it, or not?
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    The committee is selected by the Norwegian parliament making it an extension of foreign state.



    (A) any unit of foreign governmental authority, including any foreign national, State, local, and municipal government;
    (B) any international or multinational organization whose membership is composed of any unit of foreign government described in subparagraph (A); and
    (C) any agent or representative of any such unit or such organization, while acting as such.

    So is the Nobel Committee an agent or representative of the Parliament that appointed it, or not?
    The parameters and/or body of selection itself is irrelevant in this instance, and the FDGA makes that clear. What is relevant, is that the selected body - in this case, the Nobel Prize Committee - acts as such while in the capacity of "the state" - i.e.,) that they are an extension of the state and/or a state apparatus which acts in the capacity of the state while rendering the gift and/or decoration. So, to use the specific examples here, while the Nobel Prize Committee is appointed by the Norwegian Parliament, it does not act "as such" while rendering the Nobel Prize(s) to the applicable individuals.

    One should be clear that the "Emolument Clause" and FDGA were/are implemented to prevent collusion, corruption and bribery of the U.S., Civil Service and all its members. Now, again, even if one argued that the Nobel Prize Committee was an extension of the state, (c)(1)(A)(B) still provide a very clear opportunity to accept this "decoration".

  16. No, we will not.
    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Okay, then we can agree your comment on Google was wrong.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    The committee is selected by the Norwegian parliament making it an extension of foreign state.



    (A) any unit of foreign governmental authority, including any foreign national, State, local, and municipal government;
    (B) any international or multinational organization whose membership is composed of any unit of foreign government described in subparagraph (A); and
    (C) any agent or representative of any such unit or such organization, while acting as such.

    So is the Nobel Committee an agent or representative of the Parliament that appointed it, or not?
    Just to be clear, I certainly accorded consideration to the nexus of your argument - that is, whether or not the Nobel Prize Committee may be officially regarded as a state apparatus. As per my reading of the FDGA, as well as State Theory, it is clearly not; as well, and as I have said, I think it would be clearly offensive for Obama to refuse the Prize - particularly from the standpoint of foreign relations.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Iron Lungz View Post
    No, we will not.
    Pull up off your high ****in horse.. no one pissed in your cheerios this morning.
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  19. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Just to be clear, I certainly accorded consideration to the nexus of your argument - that is, whether or not the Nobel Prize Committee may be officially regarded as a state apparatus. As per my reading of the FDGA, as well as State Theory, it is clearly not; as well, and as I have said, I think it would be clearly offensive for Obama to refuse the Prize - particularly from the standpoint of foreign relations.
    Like I said in my comment... this is being debated by constitutional lawyers and am looking forward to what the end consensus is. Who is being offended? I know accepting the award is offending just as many people here in America... so who is it we should be appeasing?
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Like I said in my comment... this is being debated by constitutional lawyers and am looking forward to what the end consensus is. Who is being offended? I know accepting the award is offending just as many people here in America... so who is it we should be appeasing?
    You do not feel the "international community" would be offended if Obama declined to accept the gift? The 'direction' of offense in these particular statutes it outward - that is, "offense" considered within the sphere of foreign relations.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    You do not feel the "international community" would be offended if Obama declined to accept the gift? The 'direction' of offense in these particular statutes it outward - that is, "offense" considered within the sphere of foreign relations.
    Not in the least.. he knows damn well he doesnt deserve it, and I am sure most of the international community knows as well.
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  22. My horse is no taller than the one that you rode in on... and I don't eat Cheerios.
    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Pull up off your high ****in horse.. no one pissed in your cheerios this morning.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Iron Lungz View Post
    My horse is no taller than the one that you rode in on... and I don't eat Cheerios.
    I beg to differ... my horse is an @ss!
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  24. Then there's nothing else to be said, Ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I beg to differ... my horse is an @ss!

  25. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Not in the least.. he knows damn well he doesnt deserve it, and I am sure most of the international community knows as well.
    Well, determining a priori what the international community does or does not know about this award, or does or does not think about its meritoriousness, is highly speculative at best. In my estimation, the denial of the Nobel Prize would be seen as an act of American arrogance - particularly, that is, by the so-called "Axis" that you are attempting to mediate with. I think not accepting the Nobel Prize would cause more harm than accepting it; and thus, I think its acceptance as within the FDGA is permitted.
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