Top Things you Think You Know about Iran that are not True

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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    Well said Poison! The issue comes down to responsibility. And for those people that think Iraq was a mistake have never been here and seen or talked with the actual normal Iraqis. These people get quotes from the extremists and think that is everyone's opinion. Ask the normal Iraqi if they miss Saddam. They remember Black Tuesday. These people have hope for the first time in, let me think, CENTURIES.
    Agreed with the complaint on the Rumsfeld doctrine. Thank goodness for guys like GEN Patraeus!
    Harry Browne said it best:

    http://www.truthaboutwar.org/hb6.shtml


    "Rumsfeld said that Hussein's capture meant that the Iraqis can now be free in spirit, as well as in fact."

    My note: Army Guy says they have "hope" as he defines it.

    "Ah yes, liberated Iraq. It is now a free country. George Bush has liberated it.

    How has Iraq been liberated? Let me count the ways ...

    1.The country is occupied by a foreign power.


    2.Its officials are appointed by that foreign power.


    3.Its citizens must carry ID cards.


    4.They must submit to searches of their persons and cars at checkpoints and roadblocks.


    5.They must be in their homes by curfew time.


    6.Many towns are ringed with barbed wire.


    7.The occupiers have imposed strict gun-control laws, preventing ordinary citizens from defending themselves—making robberies, rapes, and assaults quite common.


    8.Trade with some countries is banned by the occupying authorities.


    9.The occupiers have decreed that certain electoral outcomes won't be permitted.


    10.Families are held hostage until they reveal the whereabouts of wanted resisters—much like the Nazis held innocent French people hostage during World War II.


    11.Protests are outlawed.


    12.Private homes are raided or demolished—with no due process of law.


    13.The occupiers have created a fiat currency and imposed it on the populace.


    14.Newspapers, radio stations, and TV are all supervised by the occupiers.

    This is liberation in the NewSpeak language of politics.

    Words like freedom and hope just don't seem to mean what they used to, do they?

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    utherblsstt I am truly going to LOVE ripping this garbage apart. Remember bro, love you like a brother, but are you serious??? You lost many brownie points on this one... so, shall we begin??

    utherblsstt says:"

    "Ah yes, liberated Iraq. It is now a free country. George Bush has liberated it.

    How has Iraq been liberated? Let me count the ways ..."

    1.The country is occupied by a foreign power.
    no getting around this one, we are in fact a foreign power... one that kicked the crap out of these guys twice and in less than 100 hours. However, we are STILL HERE because of the Iraqi security agreement that, guess what, the IRAQI'S wrote, not US. I live, work, and eat with these people, and believe me. "They want us on that wall, they need us on that wall."


    2.Its officials are appointed by that foreign power.
    Dude are you for real???? There have been local elections taking place here since 2004, and National elections since 2005. We have NOTHING to do with this. They have billboards, fliers, commercials on TV and Radio, and newspaper adds just like we do in the states. If WE appointed the politicians, believe me... 90% of these corrupt jerks would be out of a job tomorrow! Huge strike on this one bro!

    3.Its citizens must carry ID cards.
    I fail to see the point here. In the states WE carry ID cards. Under Saddam they carried ID cards as well as traveling papers. So now they carry half the crap... you lose. Strike 2 bro!

    4.They must submit to searches of their persons and cars at checkpoints and roadblocks.
    Are you keeping up with what is happening here at all??? for the last few years US forces do less and less. Since the June 30th Security Agreement, WE HAVE NONE!!! The only people who have these are the Iraqis themselves. So are you faulting them for this or did you just not check what the current situation was? I say this again, Coalition Forces have NO checkpoints OR roadblocks!!! Strike 3 bro!

    5.They must be in their homes by curfew time.
    The only time this was ever in effect was when there was an insurgent uprising, and guess what... it was the IRAQI GOVERNMENT who implemented it and (under the request of that government) enforced by Coalition Forces (CF). That was a few years ago and for the protection of the people. Today???? there are NONE enforced by the US. This is an Iraqi issue enforced BY THE IRAQIS. Strike... 4??? I guess these are T-Ball rules

    6.Many towns are ringed with barbed wire.
    Is this a joke??? First of all when we were driving up north and destroying the enemy, Saddam and the Republican Guard put up 90% of these stupid things. We had nothing to do with them and have spent the better part of 5 years getting rid of them at US TAX PAYER DOLLARS!!! But you will never guess, the Iraqi government asks for more wire and barriers EVERY TIME we meet with them. Strike 5 bro

    7.The occupiers have imposed strict gun-control laws, preventing ordinary citizens from defending themselves—making robberies, rapes, and assaults quite common.
    I would love to know who you talked to to get this golden nugget of information. Fact - all households are allowed at least 1 AK-47 with 2 loaded magazines. Fact - 90% of all Iraqis have AT LEAST 1 AK-47 in their homes or vehicles. That is MILLIONS. Dude more people own and carry weapons in Iraq than in all of the US. It's the wild west out here!! I really do wonder where you get these great facts of yours from... strike 5

    8.Trade with some countries is banned by the occupying authorities.
    Dude they belong to the UN and follow the same rules as the US, Japan, and France. If you have a beef with this, talk to the UN, NOT the US forces. We have nothing to do with their stinking trade... strike 6

    9.The occupiers have decreed that certain electoral outcomes won't be permitted.
    The only thing that us "occupiers" won't allow is tampering with ballot boxes. I have personally seen this first hand. A local Sheik will want Ali Hammas to win a provincial council seat and in order to ensure this happens he will have his minions stuff the ballot boxes. It is us and the Iraqi military that keeps this from happening by guarding the boxes. WE are the ones who make sure the elections ARE NOT rigged... please bro!!!! strike 7

    10.Families are held hostage until they reveal the whereabouts of wanted resisters—much like the Nazis held innocent French people hostage during World War II.
    Have you ever participated in a Cordon and Search operation??? No??? I didn't think so. When the COMBINED force, mostly Iraqi force today, goes into a house looking for bad guys, a few things happen. 1 - they are required to have a warrant now for those the wish to arrest signed by a judge. This is as of the June 30th agreement. They can ONLY detain the warranted individuals. Those inside the homes are brought outside and they are questioned. This is not a CF tactic but an Iraqi one. They check IDs and ensure that the operation is smooth. Hostages??? Nazis???? don't you think that is a SLIGHT exaggeration???? come on bro!!!! strike 8

    11.Protests are outlawed.
    Obviously you have never been in an Iraqi city, town, village, or small hut after an election. Strike 9

    12.Private homes are raided or demolished—with no due process of law.
    see number 10 above. strike 10

    13.The occupiers have created a fiat currency and imposed it on the populace.
    are you serious??? dude the first things these guys did in late 04 was print new money to get rid of Saddam's picture. Oh and since we have been here the currency price has gone through the roof. Wish I would have bought 20 mill dinar in 04... I would be a rich man today indeed... strike 11

    14.Newspapers, radio stations, and TV are all supervised by the occupiers.
    do you honestly think that we supervise Al Jazira??? When the infrastructure for TV and Radio started we were there to help opperate the equipment. This training lasted for a year. now, we have nothing to do with it. The Iraqis govern themselves... which is the point I believe. Strike 12... you lose bro

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    Quote Originally Posted by lutherblsstt View Post
    Harry Browne said it best:

    http://www.truthaboutwar.org/hb6.shtml


    "Rumsfeld said that Hussein's capture meant that the Iraqis can now be free in spirit, as well as in fact."

    My note: Army Guy says they have "hope" as he defines it.

    "Ah yes, liberated Iraq. It is now a free country. George Bush has liberated it.

    How has Iraq been liberated? Let me count the ways ...

    1.The country is occupied by a foreign power.


    2.Its officials are appointed by that foreign power.


    3.Its citizens must carry ID cards.


    4.They must submit to searches of their persons and cars at checkpoints and roadblocks.


    5.They must be in their homes by curfew time.


    6.Many towns are ringed with barbed wire.


    7.The occupiers have imposed strict gun-control laws, preventing ordinary citizens from defending themselves—making robberies, rapes, and assaults quite common.


    8.Trade with some countries is banned by the occupying authorities.


    9.The occupiers have decreed that certain electoral outcomes won't be permitted.


    10.Families are held hostage until they reveal the whereabouts of wanted resisters—much like the Nazis held innocent French people hostage during World War II.


    11.Protests are outlawed.


    12.Private homes are raided or demolished—with no due process of law.


    13.The occupiers have created a fiat currency and imposed it on the populace.


    14.Newspapers, radio stations, and TV are all supervised by the occupiers.

    This is liberation in the NewSpeak language of politics.

    Words like freedom and hope just don't seem to mean what they used to, do they?
    AG is much more delicate than I. You are a ****ing idiot. You propagandize everything being done in today's environment. I get it, you are completely Anit-Whatever America does. During my time in Iraq, I have seen first hand that EVERY LAST THING you just spoke as "Fact" is blatantly far from the truth. But coming from a website like that, i would expect no less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    Well said Poison! The issue comes down to responsibility. And for those people that think Iraq was a mistake have never been here and seen or talked with the actual normal Iraqis. These people get quotes from the extremists and think that is everyone's opinion. Ask the normal Iraqi if they miss Saddam. They remember Black Tuesday. These people have hope for the first time in, let me think, CENTURIES.
    Agreed with the complaint on the Rumsfeld doctrine. Thank goodness for guys like GEN Patraeus!
    Luther thinks Iraqis preferred having daughters raped, fathers 'disappeared', and dissidents wood chipped, to having the US presence. Makes total sense.

    In other news:

    Russia, Iran and the Biden Speech


    Graphic for Geopolitical Intelligence Report

    By George Friedman and Peter Zeihan

    U.S. Vice President Joe Biden toured several countries in Central Europe last week, including the Czech Republic and Poland. The trip comes just a few weeks after the United States reversed course and decided not to construct a ballistic missile defense (BMD) system in those two countries. While the system would have had little effect on the national security of either Poland or the Czech Republic, it was taken as a symbol of U.S. commitment to these two countries and to former Soviet satellites generally. The BMD cancellation accordingly caused intense concern in both countries and the rest of the region.

    While the Obama administration strongly denied that the decision to halt the BMD deployment and opt for a different BMD system had anything to do with the Russians, the timing raised some questions. Formal talks with Iran on nuclear weapons were a few weeks away, and the only leverage the United States had in those talks aside from war was sanctions. The core of any effective sanctions against Iran would be placing limits on Iran's gasoline imports. By dint of proximity to Iran and massive spare refining capability, the Russians were essential to this effort -- and they were indicating that they wouldn't participate. Coincidence or not, the decision to pull BMD from Poland and the Czech Republic did give the Russians something they had been demanding at a time when they clearly needed to be brought on board.
    The Biden Challenge

    That's what made Biden's trip interesting. First, just a few weeks after the reversal, he revisited these countries. He reasserted American commitment to their security and promised the delivery of other weapons such as Patriot missile batteries, an impressive piece of hardware that really does enhance regional security (unlike BMD, which would grant only an indirect boost). Then, Biden went even further in Romania, not only extending his guarantees to the rest of Central Europe, but also challenging the Russians directly. He said that the United States regarded spheres of influence as 19th century thinking, thereby driving home that Washington is not prepared to accept Russian hegemony in the former Soviet Union (FSU). Most important, he called on the former satellites of the Soviet Union to assist republics in the FSU that are not part of the Russian Federation to overthrow authoritarian systems and preserve their independence.
    Related Link

    * U.S. Vice President Joe Biden on America, Central Europe, and Partnership in 21st Century

    (STRATFOR is not responsible for content from other Web sites.)

    This was a carefully written and vetted speech: It was not Biden going off on a tangent, but rather an expression of Obama administration policy. And it taps into the prime Russian fear, namely, that the West will eat away at Russia's western periphery -- and at Russia itself -- with color revolutions that result in the installation of pro-Western governments, just as happened in Georgia in 2003 and Ukraine in 2004-2005. The United States essentially now has pledged itself to do just that, and has asked the rest of Central Europe to join it in creating and strengthening pro-Western governments in the FSU. After doing something Russia wanted the United States to do, Washington now has turned around and announced a policy that directly challenges Russia, and which in some ways represents Russia's worst-case scenario.

    What happened between the decision to pull BMD and Biden's Romania speech remains unclear, but there are three possibilities. The first possibility is that the Obama administration decided to shift policy on Russia in disappointment over Moscow's lack of response to the BMD overture. The second possibility is that the Obama administration didn't consider the effects of the BMD reversal. U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said the one had nothing to do with the other, and it is possible that the Obama administration simply failed to anticipate the firestorm the course reversal would kick off in Central Europe and to anticipate that it would be seen as a conciliatory gesture to the Russians, and then had to scramble to calm the waters and reassert the basic American position on Russia, perhaps more harshly than before. The third possibility, a variation on the second scenario, is that the administration might not yet have a coordinated policy on Russia. Instead, it responds to whatever the most recent pressure happens to be, giving the appearance of lurching policy shifts.

    The why of Washington decision-making is always interesting, but the fact of what has now happened is more pertinent. And that is that Washington now has challenged Moscow on the latter's core issues. However things got to that point, they are now there -- and the Russian issue now fully intersects with the Iranian issue. On a deeper level, Russia once again is shaping up to be a major challenge to U.S. national interests. Russia fears (accurately) that a leading goal of American foreign policy is to prevent the return of Russia as a major power. At present, however, the Americans lack the free hand needed to halt Russia's return to prominence as a result of commitments in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Kremlin inner circle understands this divergence between goal and capacity all too well, and has been working to keep the Americans as busy as possible elsewhere.
    Distracting Washington While Shoring Up Security

    The core of this effort is Russian support for Iran. Moscow has long collaborated with Tehran on Iran's nuclear power generation efforts. Conventional Russian weapon systems are quite popular with the Iranian military. And Iran often makes use of Russian international diplomatic cover, especially at the U.N. Security Council, where Russia wields the all-important veto.

    Russian support confounds Washington's ability to counter more direct Iranian action, whether that Iranian action be in Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq or the Persian Gulf. The Obama administration would prefer to avoid war with Iran, and instead build an international coalition against Iran to force it to back down on any number of issues of which a potential nuclear weapons program is only the most public and obvious. But building that coalition is impossible with a Russia-sized hole right in the center of the system.

    The end result is that the Americans have been occupied with the Islamic world for some time now, something that secretly delights the Russians. The Iranian distraction policy has worked fiendishly well: It has allowed the Russians to reshape their own neighborhood in ways that simply would not be possible if the Americans had more diplomatic and military freedom of action. At the beginning of 2009, the Russians saw three potential challenges to their long-term security that they sought to mitigate. As of this writing, they have not only succeeded, they have managed partially to co-opt all three threats.

    First, there is Ukraine, which is tightly integrated into the Russian industrial and agricultural heartland. A strong Ukrainian-Russian partnership (if not outright control of Ukraine by Russia) is required to maintain even a sliver of Russian security. Five years ago, Western forces managed to short-circuit a Kremlin effort to firm up Russian control of the Ukrainian political system, resulting in the Orange Revolution that saw pro-Western President Viktor Yushchenko take office. After five years of serious Russian diplomatic and intelligence work, Moscow has since managed not just to discredit Yushchenko -- he is now less popular in most opinion polls than the margin of error -- but to command the informal loyalty of every other candidate for president in the upcoming January 2010 election. Very soon, Ukraine's Western moment will formally be over.

    Russia is also sewing up the Caucasus. The only country that could challenge Russia's southern flank is Turkey, and until now, the best Russian hedge against Turkish power has been an independent (although certainly still a Russian client) Armenia. (Turkish-Armenian relations have been frozen in the post-Cold War era over the contentious issue of the Armenian genocide.) A few months ago, Russia offered the Turks the opportunity to improve relations with Armenia. The Turks are emerging from 90 years of near-comatose international relations, and they jumped at the chance to strengthen their position in the Caucasus. But in the process, Turkey's relationship with its heretofore regional ally, Azerbaijan (Armenia's archfoe), has soured. Terrified that they are about to lose their regional sponsor, the Azerbaijanis have turned to the Russians to counterbalance Armenia, while the Russians still pull all Armenia's strings. The end result is that Turkey's position in the Caucasus is now far weaker than it was a few months ago, and Russia still retains the ability to easily sabotage any Turkish-Armenian rapprochement.

    Even on the North European Plain, Russia has made great strides. The main power on that plain is the recently reunified Germany. Historically, Germany and Russia have been at each other's throats, but only when they have shared a direct border. When an independent Poland separates them, they have a number of opportunities for partnership, and 2009 has seen such opportunities seized. The Russians initially faced a challenge regarding German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Merkel is from the former East Germany, giving her personal reasons to see the Russians as occupiers. Cracking this nut was never going to be easy for Moscow, yet it succeeded. During the 2009 financial crisis, when Russian firms were snapping like twigs, the Russian government still provided bailout money and merger financing to troubled German companies, with a rescue plan for Opel even helping Merkel clinch re-election. With the Kremlin now offering to midwife -- and in many cases directly subsidize -- investment efforts in Russia by German firms such as E.On, Wintershall, Siemens, Volkswagen and ThyssenKrupp, the Kremlin has quite literally purchased German goodwill.
    Washington Seeks a Game Changer

    With Russia making great strides in Eurasia while simultaneously sabotaging U.S. efforts in the Middle East, the Americans desperately need to change the game. Despite its fiery tone, this desperation was on full display in Biden's speech. Flat-out challenging the Central Europeans to help other FSU countries recreate the revolutions they launched when they broke with the Soviet empire in 1989, specifically calling for such efforts in Belarus, Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan and Armenia, is as bald-faced a challenge as the Americans are currently capable of delivering. And to ensure there was no confusion on the point, Biden also promised -- publicly -- whatever support the Central Europeans might ask for. The Americans have a serious need for the Russians to be on the defensive. Washington wants to force the Russians to focus on their own neighborhood, ideally forgetting about the Iranians in the process. Better yet, Washington would like to force the Russians into a long slog of defensive actions to protect their clients hard up on their own border. The Russians did not repair the damage of the Orange Revolution overnight, so imagine how much time Washington would have if all of the former Soviet satellites started stirring up trouble across Russia's western and southern periphery.

    The Central Europeans do not require a great deal of motivation. If the Americans are concerned about a resurgent Russia, then the Central Europeans are absolutely terrified -- and that was before the Russians started courting Germany, the only regional state that could stand up to Russia by itself. Things are even worse for the Central Europeans than they seem, as much of their history has consisted of vainly attempting to outmaneuver Germany and Russia's alternating periods of war and partnership.

    The question of why the United States is pushing this hard at the present time remains. Talks with the Iranians are under way; it is difficult to gauge how they are going. The conventional wisdom holds that the Iranians are simply playing for time before allowing the talks to sink. This would mean the Iranians don't feel terribly pressured by the threat of sanctions and don't take threats of attack very seriously. At least with regard to the sanctions, the Russians have everything to do with Iran's blase attitude. The American decision to threaten Russia might simply have been a last-ditch attempt to force Tehran's hand now that conciliation seems to have failed. It isn't likely to work, because for the time being Russia has the upper hand in the former Soviet Union, and the Americans and their allies -- motivated as they may be -- do not have the best cards to play.

    The other explanation might be that the White House wanted to let Iran know that the Americans don't need Russia to deal with Iran. The threats to Russia might infuriate it, but the Kremlin is unlikely to feel much in the form of clear and present dangers. On the other hand, blasting the Russians the way Biden did might force the Iranians to reconsider their hand. After all, if the Americans are no longer thinking of the Russians as part of the solution, this indicates that the Americans are about to give up on diplomacy and sanctions. And that means the United States must choose between accepting an Iranian bomb or employing the military option.

    And this leaves the international system with two outcomes. First, by publicly ending attempts to secure Russian help, Biden might be trying to get the Iranians to take American threats seriously. And second, by directly challenging the Russians on their home turf, the United States will be making the borderlands between Western Europe and Russia a very exciting place.

    Tell STRATFOR What You Think

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    I stopped posting in this thread because I think Letterman's Top Ten lists - even after he got caught wearing his intern(s) as a hat(s) - have more credibility than the **** that luther cut and pastes from anti-american media.

    Thread should be renamed "10 things that luther read online telling him what he thinks he knows about Iran but doesn't".
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    Look, Luther is, if I'm not mistaken, an 'educator', he teaches at an institution of higher learning. This may explain a whole lot, as the trend nowdays is absolute moral ambiguity. He probably see's himself as 'educating' us, or exposing us to a side he believes we hadn't seen or thought of before.

    Problem is, he's using utter hogwash and lies to achieve this, and it doesn't take an educAtion from a place of higher learning to see through it.
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    I'd rather the pretenses were dropped and we could have a real conversation about it. Rather than just a battle of the verbose cut and pastes.
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    I dont know if anyone mentioned this but in 2002 Iran offered the US a "grand bargain" in which they would scrap the nuke program in exchange to be taken off the "axis of evil" however they rejected this proposal. My guess is that AIPAC had something to do with it because they have a heavy influence in our foreign policy in the middle east.
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    YouTube - Iran is not the problem 1 Part 9
    This is a rather interesting documentary on Iran and the US.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nopeace View Post
    I dont know if anyone mentioned this but in 2002 Iran offered the US a "grand bargain" in which they would scrap the nuke program in exchange to be taken off the "axis of evil" however they rejected this proposal. My guess is that AIPAC had something to do with it because they have a heavy influence in our foreign policy in the middle east.
    Damn Jews! Again? First 9/11, now Iran?


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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    Damn Jews! Again? First 9/11, now Iran?


    Poison, Vance.... where did we go wrong???
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    Thumbs down


    Quote Originally Posted by nopeace View Post
    YouTube - Iran is not the problem 1 Part 9
    This is a rather interesting documentary on Iran and the US.


    That "documentary" is a propaganda laiden pile of **** buddy. I love the statement, "The US/American goal is global domination" - which Americans are you talking about? I know plenty of US soldiers and they couldn't give a **** about global domination. I know many Americans and they couldn't give a **** about global domination either. The whole blood for oil argument is beyond ****ing retarded.

    If you want to make a reasonable argument in relation to control of oil in the middle east by America the only argument that holds any water is the one in relation to the 'petro-dollar' if you don't know what I'm talking about do yourself a favour and google it and there are plenty of websites out there that will tell you what your opinion now is. Better yet though, how about you read both sides of the argument and come up with a reasoned opinion of your own rather than relying on wikipedia/youtube/antiwar.com to tell you what to think?

    The assertion that the 'jews' dominate foreign policy in the US is the biggest load of poorly veiled anti-semetic bull**** in the world. ****ing idiots like Glenn Beck would have you compare Obama (An African American) and plenty of JEWISH democratic senators and representatives as 'nazis' and completely miss the irony because they're too ****ing stupid to know what irony is in a non-Alanis-Morisette way.

    The 'jews' aren't the problem buddy. Not in WW2 and certainly not now. If you're going to make some sweeping statement about the so called 'jewish agenda' being pushed in US policies back it up with more than anti-semetic rhetoric. If you like Iran so much go apply for a job as the president's PA, it sounds like the two of you would have some really good discussions denying the holocaust together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    Poison, Vance.... where did we go wrong???
    We're trying to make reasoned, logical and realistic arguments to people who watch Fox News and rely on other propagandist media to tell them what to think. It's a waste of time.

    The same douchebags who scream, "Blood for oil" and "Bring back our troops" and "Make peace not war" are the same douchebags who will be screaming bloody murder the second the oil price goes up by 10c or they can't run their air conditioning 24 hours a day in summer due to energy shortages. They're also the same douchebags who wanted reciprocity for 9/11 and now that we're in Afghanistan can't stomach it because they get upset by the idea that bullets and bombs kill people. The joys of a digital age.

    You have to wake up and realise people that there is only so much in the way of resources, money, water, oil, food and power to go around. The entire world can't live in air conditioned comfort watching a 52" plasma like you - there isn't enough to go around. So while you sit there on your high horses in your ivory towers ask yourselves would you be willing to give it all up in the name of 'peace and love man'? If the answer is yes then I suggest you do so and prove it. If the answer is no then stop your ****ing complaining, the boys on the wall and in the **** are the ones who provide you the luxuries you enjoy while pissing and moaning like you do because you're a ****ing hypocrite.

    With the regimes you are talking about you are dealing with two diametrically opposed ideologies. It is *not* a matter of sitting down over a beer to work out these problems, it's a matter of picking what side your on. There are people in the world who want what you have and are prepared to kill you to take it from you - even if only to burn it to the ground. So... Pick a side and get on with it.

    **** or get off the pot peeps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    Poison, Vance.... where did we go wrong???
    Sarcasm, friend. I'm an israeli-american dual citizen.
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    Vance, Poison, I think Luther is done. Haven't seen him in a few days. Agreed with all Vance, this guy is killing me. It sucks BEING that guy on that wall and every now and then turning around and seeing turds like this pissing on the very constitution that gives them the right to protest in the first place. Makes you want to run off and become a farmer or hermit.
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    I think he's posting under 'nopeace' username.


    Oh, ****, you mean there's 2 of em? :flamethrower:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    Vance, Poison, I think Luther is done. Haven't seen him in a few days. Agreed with all Vance, this guy is killing me. It sucks BEING that guy on that wall and every now and then turning around and seeing turds like this pissing on the very constitution that gives them the right to protest in the first place. Makes you want to run off and become a farmer or hermit.
    I've been in the forces too man. I know what it's like.

    Nothing ****s me more than hippies. The other thread about Afghanistan Luther made a comparison between Afghanistan and Vietnam (Which one couldn't have less to do with the other anyway) while spouting the usual cut and pasted diatribes.

    The same hippies that made the US cut and run from Vietnam were the same hippies who got us involved in the first place. "Look at the evil commies brutalising the peaceful South Vietnamese! Why doesn't someone do something?!" Skip forward a few years and if you're in uniform you're a baby killer.

    The more things change the more they stay the same.

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    Hipsters are the new hippies. Hippy > hipster. Same ****, just in a more ecologically sound, well designed (yet strategically worn to give an impression of authenticity and originality), and less smelly package.
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    Luther, you are worse than Alex Jones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    utherblsstt I am truly going to LOVE ripping this garbage apart. Remember bro, love you like a brother, but are you serious??? You lost many brownie points on this one... so, shall we begin??

    utherblsstt says:"

    "Ah yes, liberated Iraq. It is now a free country. George Bush has liberated it.

    How has Iraq been liberated? Let me count the ways ..."

    1.The country is occupied by a foreign power.
    no getting around this one, we are in fact a foreign power... one that kicked the crap out of these guys twice and in less than 100 hours. However, we are STILL HERE because of the Iraqi security agreement that, guess what, the IRAQI'S wrote, not US. I live, work, and eat with these people, and believe me. "They want us on that wall, they need us on that wall."


    2.Its officials are appointed by that foreign power.
    Dude are you for real???? There have been local elections taking place here since 2004, and National elections since 2005. We have NOTHING to do with this. They have billboards, fliers, commercials on TV and Radio, and newspaper adds just like we do in the states. If WE appointed the politicians, believe me... 90% of these corrupt jerks would be out of a job tomorrow! Huge strike on this one bro!

    3.Its citizens must carry ID cards.
    I fail to see the point here. In the states WE carry ID cards. Under Saddam they carried ID cards as well as traveling papers. So now they carry half the crap... you lose. Strike 2 bro!

    4.They must submit to searches of their persons and cars at checkpoints and roadblocks.
    Are you keeping up with what is happening here at all??? for the last few years US forces do less and less. Since the June 30th Security Agreement, WE HAVE NONE!!! The only people who have these are the Iraqis themselves. So are you faulting them for this or did you just not check what the current situation was? I say this again, Coalition Forces have NO checkpoints OR roadblocks!!! Strike 3 bro!

    5.They must be in their homes by curfew time.
    The only time this was ever in effect was when there was an insurgent uprising, and guess what... it was the IRAQI GOVERNMENT who implemented it and (under the request of that government) enforced by Coalition Forces (CF). That was a few years ago and for the protection of the people. Today???? there are NONE enforced by the US. This is an Iraqi issue enforced BY THE IRAQIS. Strike... 4??? I guess these are T-Ball rules

    6.Many towns are ringed with barbed wire.
    Is this a joke??? First of all when we were driving up north and destroying the enemy, Saddam and the Republican Guard put up 90% of these stupid things. We had nothing to do with them and have spent the better part of 5 years getting rid of them at US TAX PAYER DOLLARS!!! But you will never guess, the Iraqi government asks for more wire and barriers EVERY TIME we meet with them. Strike 5 bro

    7.The occupiers have imposed strict gun-control laws, preventing ordinary citizens from defending themselves—making robberies, rapes, and assaults quite common.
    I would love to know who you talked to to get this golden nugget of information. Fact - all households are allowed at least 1 AK-47 with 2 loaded magazines. Fact - 90% of all Iraqis have AT LEAST 1 AK-47 in their homes or vehicles. That is MILLIONS. Dude more people own and carry weapons in Iraq than in all of the US. It's the wild west out here!! I really do wonder where you get these great facts of yours from... strike 5

    8.Trade with some countries is banned by the occupying authorities.
    Dude they belong to the UN and follow the same rules as the US, Japan, and France. If you have a beef with this, talk to the UN, NOT the US forces. We have nothing to do with their stinking trade... strike 6

    9.The occupiers have decreed that certain electoral outcomes won't be permitted.
    The only thing that us "occupiers" won't allow is tampering with ballot boxes. I have personally seen this first hand. A local Sheik will want Ali Hammas to win a provincial council seat and in order to ensure this happens he will have his minions stuff the ballot boxes. It is us and the Iraqi military that keeps this from happening by guarding the boxes. WE are the ones who make sure the elections ARE NOT rigged... please bro!!!! strike 7

    10.Families are held hostage until they reveal the whereabouts of wanted resisters—much like the Nazis held innocent French people hostage during World War II.
    Have you ever participated in a Cordon and Search operation??? No??? I didn't think so. When the COMBINED force, mostly Iraqi force today, goes into a house looking for bad guys, a few things happen. 1 - they are required to have a warrant now for those the wish to arrest signed by a judge. This is as of the June 30th agreement. They can ONLY detain the warranted individuals. Those inside the homes are brought outside and they are questioned. This is not a CF tactic but an Iraqi one. They check IDs and ensure that the operation is smooth. Hostages??? Nazis???? don't you think that is a SLIGHT exaggeration???? come on bro!!!! strike 8

    11.Protests are outlawed.
    Obviously you have never been in an Iraqi city, town, village, or small hut after an election. Strike 9

    12.Private homes are raided or demolished—with no due process of law.
    see number 10 above. strike 10

    13.The occupiers have created a fiat currency and imposed it on the populace.
    are you serious??? dude the first things these guys did in late 04 was print new money to get rid of Saddam's picture. Oh and since we have been here the currency price has gone through the roof. Wish I would have bought 20 mill dinar in 04... I would be a rich man today indeed... strike 11

    14.Newspapers, radio stations, and TV are all supervised by the occupiers.
    do you honestly think that we supervise Al Jazira??? When the infrastructure for TV and Radio started we were there to help opperate the equipment. This training lasted for a year. now, we have nothing to do with it. The Iraqis govern themselves... which is the point I believe. Strike 12... you lose bro

    This lesson in the obvious was brought to you by
    AG


    Since I am so hopelessly ill informed,lets let the Winter Soldiers who were in Iraq speak:

    Winter Soldiers in the Christian Science Monitor

    The Christian Science Monitor's interviewed IVAW members at Winter Soldier for an audio slideshow. Vincent Emanuele, a former Marine who served in Iraq from 2004 to 2005, commented on why he testified:

    http://www.csmonitor.com/slideshows/2008/iraq_five3/

    "This is not about being unpatriotic. I think this is about being as patriotic as you can possibly be. Being honest and saying, 'Hey, listen, our government has been doing some bad things in a Middle Eastern country,' and that's ok to admit that. Because if we don't admit that, and don't learn from that, we're going to continue down this very same path."


    Also:

    "The veterans are not against the military and seek not to indict it – instead they seek to shine a light on the bigger picture: that the Abu Ghraib prison regime and the Haditha massacre of innocent Iraqis are not isolated incidents perpetrated by “bad seeds” as the military suggests, but evidence of an endemic problem. They will say they were tasked to do terrible things and point the finger up the chain of command, which ignores, diminishes or covers up routine abuse and atrocities.

    Some see it as their responsibility to speak out – like Jason Washburn, a US marine who did two tours in Afghanistan and one in Iraq; Logan Laituri, a US Army forward observer in Iraq; and Perry O’Brien, an army medic deployed to Afghanistan in 2003. They believe that, as veterans, they are the most credible sources of information. They say they were put in immoral and often illegal positions. They will speak about what they saw, and what they were asked to do. "
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    Luther thinks Iraqis preferred having daughters raped, fathers 'disappeared', and dissidents wood chipped, to having the US presence. Makes total sense.

    In other news:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3444835.ece

    Jason Washburn, 28, grew up in San Diego, California. He always wanted to do something to make a difference, and he enlisted in the US marines in December 2001. He wasn’t itching to go into combat, but he wanted the training.

    He fought in the initial invasion of Iraq in 2003 where, he says, he met little resistance. Most people were surrendering.

    “There were massive amounts of artillery strikes before we even invaded. We saw the results of that. Streets full of bodies – women and children – body parts, extremely indiscriminate. I’m talking about rolling through villages here, not military encampments.”

    He was told there was a military structure in one village. “I didn’t see it. I didn’t see any army uniforms. Or weapons. All I saw were civilians.”

    Washburn speaks slowly and with obvious discomfort. This was his introduction to Iraq.

    “I still believed everything we were force-fed: weapons of mass destruction and possibly even a nuclear weapon. We felt, like, we’re going to go in, overthrow this evil dictator and give these people some peace, finally. We thought we were doing a good thing.”

    Over the course of his three tours, there were more home raids than Washburn can remember. He explains how it worked. “Usually it was based on a tip – we’re told someone in the home is an insurgent. We would pick up people who had nothing to do with anything, keep them locked up until they came up with something.”

    He is glad that he didn’t witness some of the techniques used to get them to talk. “That’s not something I want on my conscience.”

    It was not a scientific process. Most tips came from people with personal grudges. Washburn and his platoon would kick down the doors in the middle of the night. He was warned not to be complacent. There could be weapons in the children’s beds. In all of the home raids, too many to count, he never found children with weapons. They would take the father away and they never knew what would happen after that.

    By the time Washburn served in Haditha he was on his third combat tour. He was there on November 19, 2005, the day of the massacre when 24 unarmed Iraqi civilians were killed, including women and children.

    “My squad was doing medivacs out of the town. I was not there to witness the shooting, but I know many marines who were.”

    It was a squad in his unit that went on the rampage after their vehicle was hit by an improvised explosive device (IED).

    “I have a lot of feelings about this incident. A friend of mine from my first two tours was in that squad. He was the guy they gave immunity to to testify against the squad leader.

    “The people on the ground are looking at serious prison time. Like life. The people who were giving orders were only relieved of command. And I don’t think that’s right.”

    Washburn says Haditha was not an isolated incident. “It’s the one that just happened to be uncovered.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    Vance, Poison, I think Luther is done. Haven't seen him in a few days. Agreed with all Vance, this guy is killing me. It sucks BEING that guy on that wall and every now and then turning around and seeing turds like this pissing on the very constitution that gives them the right to protest in the first place. Makes you want to run off and become a farmer or hermit.
    Iraq War Quiz from the Bush era:

    1. The anti-war movement supports our troops by urging that they be brought home immediately so they neither kill nor get killed in a unjust war. How has the Bush administration shown its support for our troops?



    a. The Republican-controlled House Budget Committee voted to cut $25 billion in veterans benefits over the next 10 years.

    b. The Bush administration proposed cutting $172 million from impact aid programs which provide school funding for children of military personnel.

    c. The administration ordered the Dept. of Veterans Affairs to stop publicizing health benefits available to veterans.

    d. All of the above.



    2. The anti-war movement believes that patriotism means urging our country to do what is right. How do Bush administration officials define patriotism?



    a. Patriotism means emulating **** Cheney, who serves as Vice-President while receiving $100,000-$1,000,000 a year from Halliburton, the multi-billion dollar company which is already lining up for major contracts in post-war Iraq.

    b. Patriotism means emulating Richard Perle, the warhawk who serves as head of the Defense Intelligence Board while at the same time meeting with Saudi arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi on behalf of Trireme, a company of which he is a managing partner, involved in security and military technologies, and while agreeing to work as a paid lobbyist for Global Crossing, a telecommunications giant seeking a major Pentagon contract.

    c. Patriotism means emulating George W. Bush, **** Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, John Bolton, Tom DeLay, John Ashcroft, Lewis Libby, and others who enthusiastically supported the Vietnam War while avoiding serving in it and who now are sending others to kill and be killed in Iraq.

    d. All of the above.



    3. The Bush administration has accused Saddam Hussein of lying regarding his weapons of mass destruction. Which of the following might be considered less than truthful?



    a. Constant claims by the Bush administration that there was documentary evidence linking Iraq to attempted uranium purchases in Niger, despite the fact that the documents were forgeries and CIA analysts doubted their authenticity.

    b. A British intelligence report on Iraq's security services that was in fact plagiarized, with selected modifications, from a student article.

    c. The frequent citation of the incriminating testimony of Iraqi defector Hussein Kamel, while suppressing that part of the testimony in which Kamel stated that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction had been destroyed following the 1991 Gulf War.

    d. All of the above.



    4. White House Press Secretary Ari Fleisher stormed out of a press conference when the assembled reporters broke into laughter after he declared that the U.S. would never try to bribe members of the UN. What should Fleisher have said to defend himself?



    a. It wasn't just bribery; we also ordered the bugging of the home and office phones and emails of the UN ambassadors of Security Council member states that were undecided on war.

    b. Oh, come on! We've been doing this for years. In 1990 when Yemen voted against authorizing war with Iraq, the U.S. ambassador declared "That will be the most expensive 'no' vote you ever cast."

    c. Why do you think the Africa Growth and Opportunity Act makes one of the conditions for an African country to receive preferential access to U.S. markets that it “not engage in activities that undermine United States national security or foreign policy interests”?

    d. All of the above.



    5. George Bush has declared that "we have no fight with the Iraqi people." What could he have cited as supporting evidence?



    a. U.S. maintenance of 12 years of crippling sanctions that strengthened Saddam Hussein while contributing to the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

    b. The fact that "coalition" forces have indicated that they will use cluster bombs in Iraq, despite warnings from human rights groups that "The use of cluster munitions in Iraq will endanger civilians for years to come."

    c. By pointing to the analogy of Afghanistan, which the U.S. pledged not to forget about when the war was over, and for which the current Bush administration foreign aid budget request included not one cent in aid.

    d. All of the above.



    6. The Bush administration has touted the many nations that are part of the "coalition of the willing." Which of the following statements about this coalition is true?



    a. In most of the coalition countries polls show that a majority, often an overwhelming majority, of the people oppose the war.

    b. More than ten of the members of the coalition of the willing are actually a coalition of the unwilling – unwilling to reveal their names.

    c. Coalition members – most of whose contributions to the war are negligible or even zero – constitute less than a quarter of the countries in the UN and contain less than 20% of the world's population.

    d. All of the above.



    7. The war on Iraq is said to be part of the "war on terrorism." Which of the following is true?



    a. A senior American counterintelligence official said: "An American invasion of Iraq is already being used as a recruitment tool by Al Qaeda and other groups….And it is a very effective tool."

    b. An American official, based in Europe, said Iraq had become "a battle cry, in a way," for Al Qaeda recruiters.

    c. France's leading counter-terrorism judge said: "Bin Laden's strategy has always been to demonstrate to the Islamic community that the West, and especially the U.S., is starting a global war against Muslims. An attack on Iraq might confirm this vision for many Muslims. I am very worried about the next wave of recruits."

    d. All of the above.



    8. The Bush administration says it is waging war to stop the spread of weapons of mass destruction. Which of the following is true?



    a. The United States has refused to ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, viewed worldwide as the litmus test for seriousness about nuclear disarmament.

    b. The United States has insisted on a reservation to the Chemical Weapons Convention allowing the U.S. President the right to refuse an inspection of U.S. facilities on national security grounds, and blocked efforts to improve compliance with the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention.

    c. Vice Admiral Lowell E. Jacoby, Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, testified on Feb. 11, 2003, "The long-term trends with respect to WMD and missile proliferation are bleak. States seek these capabilities for regional purposes, or to provide a hedge to deter or offset U.S. military superiority."

    d. All of the above.



    9. The Bush administration says it wants to bring democracy to Iraq and the Middle East. Which of the following is true?



    a. If there were democracy in Saudi Arabia today, backing for the U.S. war effort would be the first thing to go, given the country's "increasingly anti-American population deeply opposed to the war."

    b. The United States subverted some of the few democratic governments in the Middle East (Syria in 1949, Iran in 1953), and has backed undemocratic regimes in the region ever since.

    c. The United States supported the crushing of anti-Saddam Hussein revolts in Iraq in 1991.

    d. All of the above.



    10. Colin Powell cited as evidence of an Iraq-Al Qaeda link an audiotape from bin Laden in which he called Saddam Hussein and his Baath Party regime "infidels." Which of the following is more compelling evidence?



    a. An FBI official told the New York Times: "We've been looking at this hard for more than a year and you know what, we just don't think it's there."

    b. According to a classified British intelligence report seen by BBC News, "There are no current links between the Iraqi regime and the al-Qaeda network."

    c. According to Rohan Gunaratna, author of Inside Al Qaeda: Global Network of Terror, "Since U.S. intervention in Afghanistan in October 2001, I have examined several tens of thousands of documents recovered from Al Qaeda and Taliban sources. In addition to listening to 240 tapes taken from Al Qaeda's central registry, I debriefed several Al Qaeda and Taliban detainees. I could find no evidence of links between Iraq and Al Qaeda."

    d. All of the above.





    Answers and Sources



    1. d (a) Cong. Lane Evans, "Veterans Programs Slashed by House Republicans," Press Release, 3/13/03, http://www.veterans.house.gov/democr...3-03budget.htm. (b) Brian Faler, "Educators Angry Over Proposed Cut in Aid; Many Children in Military Families Would Feel Impact," Washington Post, 3/19/03, p. A29. (c) See Veterans' for Common Sense, letter to George W. Bush, 3/20/03 http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/print.asp?id=563; Melissa B. Robinson, "Hospitals Face Budget Crunch," Associated Press, 7/31/02; Jason Tait, "Veterans angered by marketing ban," Eagle-Tribune (Lawrence, MA), 8/2/02, http://www.eagletribune.com/news/sto...802/FP_003.htm



    2. d (a) Warren Vieth and Elizabeth Douglass, " Ousting Hussein could open the door for U.S. and British firms. French, Russian and Chinese *****s would lose their edge," Los Angeles Times, 3/12/03, p. I:1; Robert Bryce and Julian Borger, "Halliburton: Cheney is still paid by Pentagon contractor, Bush deputy gets Dollars 1m from firm with Iraq oil deal," Guardian (London), 3/12/03, p. 5 (which notes that Halliburton "would not say how much the payments are; the obligatory disclosure statement filled by all top government officials says only that they are in the range of" $100,000 and $1 million. (b) Seymour M. Hersh, "Lunch with the Chairman," New Yorker, 3/16/03; Stephen Labaton, "Pentagon Adviser Is Also Advising Global Crossing," NYT, 3/21/03, p. C1. Perle is to be paid $725,000 for his lobbying effort, including $600,000 if his lobbying is successful. (c) New Hampshire Gazette, "The Chickenhawks," http://nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html.



    3. d (a) See the evidence collected in Cong. Henry Waxman's letter to George W. Bush, 3/17/03, http://www.house.gov/waxman/text/adm...rch_17_let.htm. (b) See Glen Rangwala's report, http://traprockpeace.org/britishdossier.html. (c) See Glen Rangwala's report, http://traprockpeace.org/kamel.html.



    4. d (a) Martin Bright, Ed Vulliamy, and Peter Beaumont, The Observer (London), 3/2/03. (b) Quoted in Phyllis Bennis, Calling the Shots: How Washington Dominates Today's UN, New York: Olive Branch, 1996, p. 33. (c) Sarah Anderson, Phyllis Bennis, and John Cavanagh, Coalition of the Willing or Coalition of the Coerced?: How The Bush Administration Influences Allies in Its War on Iraq, Washington, DC: Institute for Policy Studies, 2/26/03, p. 4.



    5. d (a) For background, see Anthony Arnove, ed., Iraq Under Siege: The Deadly Impact of Sanctions and War, Cambridge: South End Press, updated ed. 2003. (b) Paul Waugh, "Labour MPs Attack Hoon After He Reveals That British Forces Will Use Cluster Bombs," Independent, 3/21/03, p. 4; Human Rights Watch, Press Release, 3/18/03: "Persian Gulf: U.S. Cluster Bomb Duds A Threat; Warning Against Use of Cluster Bombs in Iraq." (c) Zvi Bar'el, "Flaws in the Afghan Model," Ha'aretz, 3/14/03, http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/ob...?itemNo=272884.



    6. d (a) See, for example, the revealing comment of Secretary of State Powell: "We need to knock down this idea that nobody is on our side. So many nations recognize this danger [of Iraq's weapons]. And they do it in the face of public opposition." Quoted in Steven R. Weisman With Felicity Barringer, "Urgent Diplomacy Fails To Gain U.S. 9 Votes In The U.N." NYT, 3/10/03, p. A1) (b) U.S. Dept. of State, Daily Press Briefing, Richard Boucher, Washington, DC, 3/18/03. (c) Country list: White House, Statement of Support from Coalition, 3/25/03, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...030325-8.html; population calculated from Statistical Abstract of the United States, 2001, Washington, DC: 2001, table 1327. Total includes USA. The White House list includes countries whose leaders have done no more than state their support for the United States, and the listing changes from day to day, with some countries being added and some removed.



    7. d (a) Don Van Natta Jr. and Desmond Butler, "Anger On Iraq Seen As New Qaeda Recruiting Tool," NYT, 3/16/03, p. I:1. (b) Van Natta and Butler, NYT, 3/16/03. (c) Van Natta and Butler, NYT, 3/16/03.



    8. d (a) Colum Lynch, "U.S. Boycotts Nuclear Test Ban Meeting; Some Delegates at U.N. Session Upset at Latest Snub of Pact Bush Won't Back," Washington Post, 11/12/02, p. A6. (b) Amy E. Smithson, “U.S. Implementation of the CWC," in Jonathan B. Tucker, The Chemical Weapons Convention: Implementation Challenges and Solutions, Monterey Institute, April 2001, pp. 23-29, http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/reports/tuckcwc.htm; Jonathan Tucker, "The Fifth Review Conference of the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention," Feb. 2002, http://www.nti.org/e_research/e3_7b.html. (c) Testimony before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, excerpted at http://traprockpeace.org/usefulquotesoniraq.html.



    9. d (a) Craig S. Smith, "Saudi Arabia Seems Calm But, Many Say, Is Seething," NYT, 3/24/03, p. B13. In fact, "Though the Saudi government officially denies it, the bombing campaign is being directed from Saudi Arabia – something that few Saudis realize." (b) On Syria, see Douglas Little, ACold War and Covert Action: The United States and Syria, 1945‑1958,@ Middle East Journal, vol. 44, no. 1, Winter 1990, pp. 55‑57. On Iran, see Mark J. Gasiorowski, "The 1953 Coup D'Etat in Iran," International Journal of Middle East Studies, vol. 19, Aug. 1987, pp. 261-86. (c) Andrew ****burn and Patrick ****burn, Out of the Ashes: The Resurrection of Saddam Hussein, New York: HarperPerennial. 1999, chap. 1.



    10. d (re audiotape, see David Johnston, "Top U.S. Officials Press Case Linking Iraq To Al Qaeda," NYT, 2/12/03, p. A1; Mohamad Bazzi, "U.S. says bin Laden tape urging Iraqis to attack appears real," Newsday, 2/12/03, p. A5. (a) James Risen and David Johnston, "Split at C.I.A. and F.B.I. On Iraqi Ties to Al Qaeda," NYT, 2/2/03, p. I:13. (b) "Leaked Report Rejects Iraqi al-Qaeda Link," BBC News, 2/5/03. (c) Rohan Gunaratna, "Iraq and Al Qaeda: No Evidence of Alliance," International Herald Tribune, 2/19/03.





    Interpreting Your Score



    9-10 Correct: Excellent. Contact United for Peace and Justice, http://www.unitedforpeace.org/, and work to fight the war and the system that produced it.



    6-8 Correct: Fair. You've been watching a few too many former generals and government officials who provide the "expert" commentary for the mainstream media. Read the alternative media!



    3-5 Correct: Poor. Don't feel bad. George W. Bush only got a C- in International Relations at College.



    0-2 Correct: Failing. You have a bright future as an "embedded" journalist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    Well said Poison! The issue comes down to responsibility. And for those people that think Iraq was a mistake have never been here and seen or talked with the actual normal Iraqis. These people get quotes from the extremists and think that is everyone's opinion. Ask the normal Iraqi if they miss Saddam. They remember Black Tuesday. These people have hope for the first time in, let me think, CENTURIES.
    Agreed with the complaint on the Rumsfeld doctrine. Thank goodness for guys like GEN Patraeus!
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...uption-in-iraq

    Try to tell Iraqis who are not part of the ruling circles that their situation has improved since the occupation and they will remind you not only of the countless dead and injured but also of the million-plus orphans and widows, the 2 million who fled the country, and the 2 million internal refugees, most of whom live in dreadful squalor.

    They will tell you about the sewage covering the streets of many towns and cities, the lack of clean water, fuel and electricity, and the ever deteriorating health and education services.

    They will tell you about the more than 50% unemployment, the kidnapping of children, the fear of women to move freely, and the rapid rise in drug abuse and prostitution.

    They will describe the horrific methods of torture inflicted on the tens of thousands of prisoners in Iraqi and American jails.

    They will remind you that if a "world-famous patriot" such as Muntadhar al-Zaidi, who threw his shoes at President Bush, was tortured by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's own guards and forces, what chance ordinary citizens?

    Iraqis will also instantly refer you to the corrupt rulers who came to Iraq "on the backs of US tanks".

    They will tell you of the division of ministries and senior posts among the various sectarian and ethnically identified political allies of the US.

    Indeed, corruption has reached such levels that the minister of trade and his brothers have been accused of stealing hundreds of millions of dollars by the "Integrity Committee", while the deputy transport minister was caught receiving $100,000 as the "first instalment" of another huge bribe.

    While Iraq and its people continue to suffer, with most of the western media ignoring their plight, President Obama is still pursuing President Bush's goal in Iraq – to have a government in Baghdad that is closely allied to the US. This is incompatible with bringing about a stable, peaceful and democratic Iraq. What US strategists have yet to learn is that the Iraqi people will not freely accept a pro-US regime in Baghdad and that the "exit strategy" will inevitably result in long-term occupation, and bring only more bloodshed and destruction.

    Why are the Iraqi people expected to elect a disparate collection of corrupt and sectarian pro-US politicians? The only realistic exit strategy must start with the right of the Iraqi people to self determination, free of American intervention.
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    Luther, you're an idiot. I already refuted 90% of what you just said. Lies unwrapped, and then rewrapped in different packaging doesn't change the fact that they are lies. I acknowledged there have been some mistakes, but to go out and find a group of hippies that served in Iraq and say that they represent the military is an insult to every guy that has spilled his blood, or seen his buddy spill his. So out of the nearly 1,000,000 different people who have served in these two wars over the years you find less than 50 who talk the way you think... well done. that's what less than .5%
    And don't even THINK that you have the authority to speak on behalf of the Iraqi people. reading an article on one of your America hating websites when I ACTUALLY LIVE WITH THESE PEOPLE. You are going to say YOU know better than I do??? Are you kidding me??? Sewage in the streets??? unemployment 50%???? this is all fabricated garbage. The average Iraqi had the chance to remove the Americans, how???? THROUGH DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS. what did they choose???? nearly 90% VOTED TO KEEP THE US IN IRAQ for the time being. Sounds like they hate us don't they.
    Oh that quiz you did, not even worth my time. I answered you point by point on your last one, and not with fancy quotes and articles..., but with facts gathered from MY OWN EYES. Oh, and the reason that kid never knew what happened to the guys that were detained, he was the guy that was part of the force that GRABBED HIM. He was not the guy who had to build the intelligence package and present it to the proper authorities. He wasn't the guy who then in turn interrogated him in prison. He had no idea the loser was responsible for killing hundreds of HIS OWN PEOPLE in markets. Give it a rest bro. And, by the way, there are more torture interrogations in the state prisons and in prisons throughout the world than there are in Iraq. How can I make such a claim, BECAUSE I WAS THE Officer In Charge, or OIC, of the prison in Baqubah. I will end with this little story:
    In honor of a national Iraqi holiday, CF decided to release a few thugs from prison. It just so happened that Al Jazirah, the American hating terrorist loving network was there. They immediately grabbed one of these guys and talked to him. What horrible things did he have to say???
    1. He had not had 3 better meals a day in his life
    2. The US paid him for his time in prison, as we do all detainees... something we don't even do in the states
    3. There is NO WAY he would rather be in Iraqi care because they would have beat him
    4. He wished that the Americans would keep him there at the jail because it was better than his home and they treated him with respect unlike his wife and family.
    Al Jazirah never ran the story..., and YES I watched this with my own 2 eyes.
    Luther... life isn't about what you read on left leaning American hating websites, it's about WHAT YOU EXPERIENCE YOURSELF. Don't disrespect the guys who stand on that wall... in the end... you and your code pink sisters will get bit on the butt
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    Anyone else beginning to think that luther is actually a bot scripted to just cut and paste ****?
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    Damn Jews! Again? First 9/11, now Iran?


    It has nothing to do with jews. Any criticism of Israel is always misinterpreted as anti-Semitic.

    Despite what many people refuse to believe Israel does influence our choices in the middle east, ask any politician who has criticized Israel. I'm not going to start another debate about U.S. Foreign policy and Israel because you only need to google that subject to find out what I am talking about. And again, none of this is nazi anti-Semitic rhetoric.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vance View Post


    That "documentary" is a propaganda laiden pile of **** buddy. I love the statement, "The US/American goal is global domination" - which Americans are you talking about? I know plenty of US soldiers and they couldn't give a **** about global domination. I know many Americans and they couldn't give a **** about global domination either. The whole blood for oil argument is beyond ****ing retarded.

    If you want to make a reasonable argument in relation to control of oil in the middle east by America the only argument that holds any water is the one in relation to the 'petro-dollar' if you don't know what I'm talking about do yourself a favour and google it and there are plenty of websites out there that will tell you what your opinion now is. Better yet though, how about you read both sides of the argument and come up with a reasoned opinion of your own rather than relying on wikipedia/youtube/antiwar.com to tell you what to think?

    The assertion that the 'jews' dominate foreign policy in the US is the biggest load of poorly veiled anti-semetic bull**** in the world. ****ing idiots like Glenn Beck would have you compare Obama (An African American) and plenty of JEWISH democratic senators and representatives as 'nazis' and completely miss the irony because they're too ****ing stupid to know what irony is in a non-Alanis-Morisette way.

    The 'jews' aren't the problem buddy. Not in WW2 and certainly not now. If you're going to make some sweeping statement about the so called 'jewish agenda' being pushed in US policies back it up with more than anti-semetic rhetoric. If you like Iran so much go apply for a job as the president's PA, it sounds like the two of you would have some really good discussions denying the holocaust together.
    .
    I was not implying jews, Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic. Before you dismiss that there is indeed a heavy influence on US foreign policy in the middle east by Israel please do some research yourself. Just google "US foreign policy and Israel and/or AIPAC".

    I understand the "petro-dollar" relationship, that's probably why we sent two naval battlegroups over there where they made mention of selling in Euros.

    Here is another documentary.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N294FMDok98"]YouTube - The Israel Lobby (Marije Meerman, VPRO Backlight 2007)[/ame]
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    Quote Originally Posted by nopeace View Post
    It has nothing to do with jews. Any criticism of Israel is always misinterpreted as anti-Semitic.

    Despite what many people refuse to believe Israel does influence our choices in the middle east, ask any politician who has criticized Israel. I'm not going to start another debate about U.S. Foreign policy and Israel because you only need to google that subject to find out what I am talking about. And again, none of this is nazi anti-Semitic rhetoric.
    You fingered aipac. Aipac is jews, not israelis, american jews. Of course aipac influences us policy in the middle east, but no more than halliburton influenced the current war in iraq, or the health indurance lobby influences the healthcare issue. Jews got their **** together, like other groups, and use their power wisely, including throwing their weigfht behind obama. Yup, something ridiculous, like 80%, voted obama. So don't make out like 1)aipac is bad for us interests, 2) israelis the cause of everything wrong in the middle east.
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    I wouldn't take into account anything these armchair quarter back writers have to say, and nor would I take anything that the IVAW has to say. Luther, do not take anything that those poseurs at IVAW has to say, they are a disgrace. I will now bite my tongue gentleman, carry on.

    IVAW site:http://www.blackfive.net
    http://www.blackfive.net/main/2008/0...t-the-dnc.html
    http://www.blackfive.net/main/2009/0...-of-ivaw-.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    You fingered aipac. Aipac is jews, not israelis, american jews. Of course aipac influences us policy in the middle east, but no more than halliburton influenced the current war in iraq, or the health indurance lobby influences the healthcare issue. Jews got their **** together, like other groups, and use their power wisely, including throwing their weigfht behind obama. Yup, something ridiculous, like 80%, voted obama. So don't make out like 1)aipac is bad for us interests, 2) israelis the cause of everything wrong in the middle east.
    AIPAC also consist of Christians not just jews. I must disagree because AIPAC is not good for US interests, much like how halliburton isn't good for our Interest.

    I think Zionism is the problem and even some jews agree with this. (There I'm done talking about Israel because we already had 2 other threads with this topic)
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    As for Iran however, even if they acquired nuclear weapons they would be stupid to even think about attack Israel or the US. Israel has an immensely powerful sophisticated military that would turn Iran into ruble with in days. Not to mention Israel would nuke the hell out of them before they had time to celebrate there one-shot nuke launch.

    I feel China and/or Russia are a greater threat than Iran could be. China especially since they've made it there mission to advance their military with no current threat to their nation.
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    That's like looking at a shaved headed Muslim, who's sweating and wearing a bulky ski jacket in 90 degree heat, and walking towards a packed bus stop muttering allhuakhbar with his finger on the button, and saying 'he's not stupid enough to do that, no human would!'. We all know how that works out.

    Your logic and morals don't apply over there. YOU wouldn't build a nuke and tickle your biggest nuclear neighbor with it, and risk your populations total annihilation, but Ahmedinejad might, Khameini might. Iran isn't in the most stable region of the world. What if Iran nuked a neighbor? Could it trigger a WW? Could we be dragged in?
    So what alternative use would Iran have for a nuke?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    Luther, you're an idiot. I already refuted 90% of what you just said. Lies unwrapped, and then rewrapped in different packaging doesn't change the fact that they are lies. I acknowledged there have been some mistakes, but to go out and find a group of hippies that served in Iraq and say that they represent the military is an insult to every guy that has spilled his blood, or seen his buddy spill his. So out of the nearly 1,000,000 different people who have served in these two wars over the years you find less than 50 who talk the way you think... well done. that's what less than .5%
    And don't even THINK that you have the authority to speak on behalf of the Iraqi people. reading an article on one of your America hating websites when I ACTUALLY LIVE WITH THESE PEOPLE. You are going to say YOU know better than I do??? Are you kidding me??? Sewage in the streets??? unemployment 50%???? this is all fabricated garbage. The average Iraqi had the chance to remove the Americans, how???? THROUGH DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS. what did they choose???? nearly 90% VOTED TO KEEP THE US IN IRAQ for the time being. Sounds like they hate us don't they.
    Oh that quiz you did, not even worth my time. I answered you point by point on your last one, and not with fancy quotes and articles..., but with facts gathered from MY OWN EYES. Oh, and the reason that kid never knew what happened to the guys that were detained, he was the guy that was part of the force that GRABBED HIM. He was not the guy who had to build the intelligence package and present it to the proper authorities. He wasn't the guy who then in turn interrogated him in prison. He had no idea the loser was responsible for killing hundreds of HIS OWN PEOPLE in markets. Give it a rest bro. And, by the way, there are more torture interrogations in the state prisons and in prisons throughout the world than there are in Iraq. How can I make such a claim, BECAUSE I WAS THE Officer In Charge, or OIC, of the prison in Baqubah. I will end with this little story:
    In honor of a national Iraqi holiday, CF decided to release a few thugs from prison. It just so happened that Al Jazirah, the American hating terrorist loving network was there. They immediately grabbed one of these guys and talked to him. What horrible things did he have to say???
    1. He had not had 3 better meals a day in his life
    2. The US paid him for his time in prison, as we do all detainees... something we don't even do in the states
    3. There is NO WAY he would rather be in Iraqi care because they would have beat him
    4. He wished that the Americans would keep him there at the jail because it was better than his home and they treated him with respect unlike his wife and family.
    Al Jazirah never ran the story..., and YES I watched this with my own 2 eyes.
    Luther... life isn't about what you read on left leaning American hating websites, it's about WHAT YOU EXPERIENCE YOURSELF. Don't disrespect the guys who stand on that wall... in the end... you and your code pink sisters will get bit on the butt
    Bechtel’s Dry Run: Iraqis Suffer Water Crisis
    http://www.citizen.org/documents/bechteliniraq.pdf

    Something As Basic As Water. I think it is
    sad how the USA’s government went to all that trouble to proclaim that the USA “cares” about the regular, non-terrorist citizens of Iraq, and then neglects their basic needs.

    Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.”
    - George Orwell

    Also,from independent US journalist Dahr Jamail in Iraq:

    Colonizing Culture

    by Dahr Jamail



    Transgress

    The geo-strategic expansion of the American empire is an accepted fact of contemporary history. I have been writing in these columns about the impact of the US occupation on the people of Iraq in the wake of the “hard” colonization via F-16s, tanks, 2,000-pound bombs, white phosphorous and cluster bombs.

    Here I offer a brief glimpse into the less obvious but far more insidious phenomenon of “soft” colonization. That scholars and political thinkers have talked at length of such processes only establishes the uncomfortable reality that history is bound to repeat itself in all its ugliness, unless the human civilization makes a concerted effort to eliminate the use of brute force from human affairs.

    Gandhi, the apostle of non-violent resistance said:

    “I do not want my house to be walled in on all sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any. I refuse to live in other people’s houses as an interloper, a beggar or a slave.”

    This is an idea rendered irrelevant in the current scenario, where the mightier among the world’s nations have secured the mandate to invade, with impunity, any society and any state that can be exploited for resources. Unlike earlier times, modern-day invasions are invariably camouflaged by a façade of elaborate deceit that claims altruistic intent as the motive of assault. In this new scheme of things, resistance is deemed as insurgency and dissent is unpatriotic. Those that are invaded do not have the luxury to decide between being beggar and slave. Culture would be the last thing on their minds as they struggle to stay alive. Yet it is the loss of their culture that ultimately causes the disintegration of these societies to the absolute advantage of their victors.

    It is said that history is written by the victor. What is not said is that destroying the enemy is only half the purpose of a victor. The other half is the subjugation and drastic alteration of the self-perception of the enemy, so as to gain unquestioned control over every aspect of the subjugated state, its populace and its resources, so that having won victory it can get on with the “much bigger business of plunder,” according to Franz Fanon, philosopher, psychiatrist, author and a pre-eminent thinker of the twentieth century.

    At one level we have the Human Terrain System (HTS) I have written about previously wherein social scientists are embedded with combat units, ostensibly to help the occupiers better understand the cultures they are occupying. The veiled intent is to exploit existing schisms and fault-lines in these societies to the occupier’s own advantage through the policy of divide and conquer.

    As Edward Said stated in “Orientalism”:

    “… there is a difference between knowledge of other peoples and other times that is the result of understanding, compassion, careful study and analysis for their own sakes, and on the other hand knowledge - if that is what it is - that is part of an overall campaign of self-affirmation, belligerency, and outright war. There is, after all, a profound difference between the will to understand for purposes of coexistence and humanistic enlargement of horizons, and the will to dominate for the purposes of control and external enlargement of horizons, and the will to dominate for the purposes of control and external dominion.”

    It is extremely obvious that the HTS belongs to this second category.

    At another unquestioned level, the “democratization” and “modernization” of a “barbaric” society goes on. The embedded scholars of HTS evidently find no evidence of these cultures having withstood decades of international isolation and assault, yet sustained their sovereignty by the sheer dint of their education, culture and a well-integrated diverse social fabric. So the US sets up a range of state-funded programs, ostensibly to empower the women and youth of the target society, in the ways of democracy and modern civilization. Whether or not that suspect goal is accomplished, the badgered collective consciousness of the invaded people, traumatized by loss and conflict, does begin to submit to the “norms” of behavior prescribed by the victor, even when they are in violation of actual norms of society that may have prevailed prior to invasion.
    Transform

    Fanon said:

    “A national culture under colonial domination is a contested culture whose destruction is sought in systematic fashion.”
    Describing the psychopathology of colonization he said, “Every effort is made to bring the colonized person to admit the inferiority of his culture which has been transformed into instinctive patterns of behavior, to recognize the unreality of his ‘nation’, and, in the last extreme, the confused and imperfect character of his own biological structure.”

    Fanon’s speech to the Congress of Black African Writers in 1959 is an uncanny description of Iraq’s tragedy today:

    “Colonial domination, because it is total and tends to over-simplify, very soon manages to disrupt in spectacular fashion the cultural life of a conquered people. This cultural obliteration is made possible by the negation of national reality, by new legal relations introduced by the occupying power, by the banishment of the natives and their customs to outlying districts by colonial society, by expropriation, and by the systematic enslaving of men and women …
    “For culture is first the expression of a nation, the expression of its preferences, of its taboos and of its patterns. It is at every stage of the whole of society that other taboos, values and patterns are formed. A national culture is the sum total of all these appraisals; it is the result of internal and external extensions exerted over society as a whole and also at every level of that society. In the colonial situation, culture, which is doubly deprived of the support of the nation and of the state, falls away and dies.”

    At times we may witness blatant violations as in the distribution of backpacks with US flags to Iraqi children.

    A more repulsive example is the Skin White Serum. One of many companies engaged in selling skin-bleaching cream is Skin White Research Labs. They proudly sell Skin White Serum in “over 30 countries.” There are countless other companies involved in this market, selling similar products, like Skin White Bleaching Cream and Xtreme White.

    The hidden message here is that, politically, those in the culture being colonized should seek to cover their brown skin, which is in fact part of their ethnic identity, and aspire to the culture, power and influence of the dominant culture at the expense of their own.

    Somewhat less subtle is the corporate colonization of Iraq’s culture. An example of this is Iraqi girls carrying Barbie backpacks in the Sadr City area of Baghdad.

    In Iraq and Afghanistan, the dominant culture for a while now has been the US military. Since it has all the firepower and the brute force, it sets the norms and the standard. This is done by repeated suggestions through propaganda, and advertisements suggesting that the local population is of lesser worth than the occupiers of their country in their appearance, their beliefs, their customs and their way of life.

    The material practices of society sustain its culture, which is the lifeline of identity, and affirmation that the progress of a nation depends on. Social custom, production systems, education, art and architecture are a few of the visible pillars of culture.

    Community and custom become the first casualties when an entire people, unequal in the face of military might, struggle to survive under perpetual fear of loss and death. In a state of vacuum, the threatened society will grasp whatever is offered by the occupier as a “better” way of living. In the process it is bound to lose its own tried and tested self-sustaining modes of living.

    With the destruction of infrastructure, education, health and livelihood sources are destroyed. When rehabilitation and restoration come packaged in alien systems of knowledge (read-USAID), that, too, is accepted in the absence of what existed earlier.

    Literature, art and architecture meet with more systemic demolition.

    My artist friends in Baghdad have reported,

    “The occupation forces encouraged the rebels to loot museum and libraries. Five thousand years of history and art were irretrievably lost in hours. It is a loss for the world, not Iraq alone. Buildings can be fixed, so can electricity, but where can I find another Khalid al-Rahal to make me a new statue for Abu Fafar al-Mansoor? How will I replace the artifacts dating back to thousands of years? Iraq is altered forever.”

    I have heard from ordinary men and women in Iraq, “We need our art, because it connects us with what has brought us here, and reminds us of where we are headed.” Dr. Saad Eskander has been director general of whatever remains of Iraq’s National Archive and Library and he says, “This building was burned twice, and looted. We have lost sixty percent of our archival collections like maps, historical records and photographs. Twenty-five percent of our books were lost … It has crippled our culture, and culture reaches to the bottom of peoples’ hearts, whereas politics do not.”

    It is not difficult to see that the extent of devastation caused by the invasion and occupation of Iraq goes beyond loss of life, livelihood and property. The historical and cultural roots of the nation have been destroyed.
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    Luther you crack me up you wikipedia a bunch of quotes by famous people and then add your two cents into it that, freaking outstanding, if you can do a better job with providing better diplomacy with the "current scenario" go over to the sandbox and make sure you bring Sean Penn and his camera with you, also bring some knock off van gough's and picasso's so you can reintroduce there cultural "roots" with some new artwork.
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    Luther until you post your own opinions based on what you have personally seen, I'm done with this. I refuse to answer your articles written by people with an agenda. I have given you a fair and honest assessment as I have personally seen it, and you quote idiots. I have personally been part of water projects over here. Don't blame us for an infrastructure that your buddy Saddam let fall to ruin. We have invested billions in this economy and infrastructure. So, until you post something original, I leave you to Poison, Vance, and Ryan. Love you like a brother, but grow a pair and read something other than hate America filth.
    AG
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    Luther, why don't you post this stuff over on the other forum, where you and I met? Just curious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    Luther until you post your own opinions based on what you have personally seen, I'm done with this. I refuse to answer your articles written by people with an agenda. I have given you a fair and honest assessment as I have personally seen it, and you quote idiots. I have personally been part of water projects over here. Don't blame us for an infrastructure that your buddy Saddam let fall to ruin. We have invested billions in this economy and infrastructure. So, until you post something original, I leave you to Poison, Vance, and Ryan. Love you like a brother, but grow a pair and read something other than hate America filth.
    AG
    Yes,the agenda is ending a needless occupation ASAP.

    By the way,you mean to tell me you have no agenda?

    You only say what you have personally seen and never rely on accounts from second or even third parties? Sure.

    Why do you call the people I quote idiots,because they disagree with you? The last guy I quoted is an independent journalist in Iraq.

    I also posted vids of "Winter Soldiers" who have seen what you have seen,been through what you have been through and completely disagree with what you say,guess they are idiots too,huh?

    By the way,what does criticizing a horrific policy that lead to a horrific war have to do with hating America?
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    Holy crap, you didn't quote something. Ok, I will answer you point by point again.

    you said:
    By the way,you mean to tell me you have no agenda?
    My only agenda is getting the heck out of this country and seeing my family again. I will not, however, slacken my responsibilities in the process. I have been deployed 4 times, and I for one am done with the wars. Your arguements don't sit well with me because
    1. Afghanistan is not a senseless war, they attacked us first... case closed
    2. Iraq could be argued either way. Nevertheless, the people themselves are extremely happy Saddam is gone, and THEY voted by 90% to keep us here at least until 2011.
    So I want to go home, yes, but I also want to finish the job and finish it right. Let the politicians argue over the why's


    You only say what you have personally seen and never rely on accounts from second or even third parties? Sure.

    Once again, you are assuming. I have, as an intelligence officer, done more research than you could possibly imagine on what we call "Atmospherics" which is gauging the populace and other Soldiers on what their accounts and opinions are on our "occupation." What does the research show???? there is a VERY SMALL minority that wants us gone now. However, as stated above, and being proven in the local election, the overwhelming majority want us here and say that we are 100 times better than the Saddam regime, which they despised.

    Why do you call the people I quote idiots,because they disagree with you? The last guy I quoted is an independent journalist in Iraq.

    Point taken. You are correct, I shouldn't call them idiots. That is just an opinion. I have been around, escorted, and interviewed with numerous reporters while here, and let me tell you one thing... they are after the story that will sell headlines. They will twist and turn quotes to fit their own agendas. Don't just take my word for it, ask any Soldier who has been interviewed by these guys and have had to read their misquotes in the paper the next day. Does it happen all the time??? No. Does it happen???? All the time. There are some great reporters out there, from both sides of the isles, but in my opinion over 75% start out Anti war, Anti Bush, Anti American, or just Anti Anti! You for one should take your own advise. I HAVE first hand experience, and you dismiss me as well.

    I also posted vids of "Winter Soldiers" who have seen what you have seen,been through what you have been through and completely disagree with what you say,guess they are idiots too,huh?

    No, but they offer another viewpoint, and I might add that THEIR view is not what 90% of others in the military think. Remember that!!! you are putting all your $$ on the 10%. Good luck at that bro.

    By the way,what does criticizing a horrific policy that lead to a horrific war have to do with hating America?

    Hating America comes when you openly and forcefully oppose all that it does. America is the strongest nation in the world, and every time someone needs help, they call us. The war is horrific, yes, but that is war. What America needs is support for the troops and misinformation to stop. You are quoting the MINORITY of people's opinions, and make to sound like it is the MAJORITY. That is a huge issue to me and many other Americans. And, frankly, it is offensive


    So, line by line bro. I hate war too, in fact more so given that I am going to be away from my family for yet another Christmas. That said, I will do my job and do it the best I can. I don't set policy, I enforce it, as do those who serve with me side by side. We don't ask you to toe the line on this. Good debate is needed and is what keeps a capitalistic society afloat. However, do the world and this forum a favor and don't try to pass off a few people's opinions, who are few and far between, as being how it is everywhere. That is misleading. I respect your opinions, you are entitled to them, just don't degrade me and my fellow brothers in arms by spreading misinformation, and yes that is exactly what it is.

    AG
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    That's like looking at a shaved headed Muslim, who's sweating and wearing a bulky ski jacket in 90 degree heat, and walking towards a packed bus stop muttering allhuakhbar with his finger on the button, and saying 'he's not stupid enough to do that, no human would!'. We all know how that works out.

    Your logic and morals don't apply over there. YOU wouldn't build a nuke and tickle your biggest nuclear neighbor with it, and risk your populations total annihilation, but Ahmedinejad might, Khameini might. Iran isn't in the most stable region of the world. What if Iran nuked a neighbor? Could it trigger a WW? Could we be dragged in?
    So what alternative use would Iran have for a nuke?
    Pakistan has nukes and Al Quaeda seems to be vacationing there. We should probably worry about them instead. Iran would be a costly war and right now our military isn't doing well in Afghanistan/Iraq. We could not afford to start a full-fledged war with Iran. Russia would almost certainly have some interest in stopping US expansion in the region as well.

    Iran won't fire a nuke at Israel even if it had the capability.

    Iran won't suicide itself for one nuke launch. Khameini/Almedinejad wont sacrifice an entire nation to blast israel once and disappear. You can't equate that to a suicide bomber who is only risking his own life. I think Iran's interest in nukes is more defensive than offensive if any at all.

    Iran is not a threat to the US. N. Korea already has a nuke and a delivery system but yet there is no talk about them in the news nearly as much as Iran. I honestly think there are worse threats out there to the US than Iran gaining nuclear energy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanp81 View Post
    Luther you crack me up you wikipedia a bunch of quotes by famous people and then add your two cents into it that, freaking outstanding, if you can do a better job with providing better diplomacy with the "current scenario" go over to the sandbox and make sure you bring Sean Penn and his camera with you, also bring some knock off van gough's and picasso's so you can reintroduce there cultural "roots" with some new artwork.
    Senator Fulbright:

    "To criticize one's country is to do it a service and pay it a compliment. It is a service because it may spur the country to do better than it is doing; it is a compliment because it evidences a belief that the country can do better than it is doing. Criticism, in short, is more than a right; it is an act of patriotism -- a higher form of patriotism, I believe, than the familiar rituals and national adulation."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    Holy crap, you didn't quote something. Ok, I will answer you point by point again.

    you said:
    By the way,you mean to tell me you have no agenda?
    My only agenda is getting the heck out of this country and seeing my family again. I will not, however, slacken my responsibilities in the process. I have been deployed 4 times, and I for one am done with the wars. Your arguements don't sit well with me because
    1. Afghanistan is not a senseless war, they attacked us first... case closed
    2. Iraq could be argued either way. Nevertheless, the people themselves are extremely happy Saddam is gone, and THEY voted by 90% to keep us here at least until 2011.
    So I want to go home, yes, but I also want to finish the job and finish it right. Let the politicians argue over the why's
    Afghanistan is senseless because:

    A certain group of men,none of which are from Afghanistan,attacked the US. Why not invade Saudi Arabia where most of them were from? How much sense would it make for the Sandinistas to attack the US because the Contras trained at the SOA in Fort Benning?



    Once again, you are assuming. I have, as an intelligence officer, done more research than you could possibly imagine on what we call "Atmospherics" which is gauging the populace and other Soldiers on what their accounts and opinions are on our "occupation." What does the research show???? there is a VERY SMALL minority that wants us gone now. However, as stated above, and being proven in the local election, the overwhelming majority want us here and say that we are 100 times better than the Saddam regime, which they despised.
    You are not there to help the people but to obtain control of strategic territory and resources,helping the people of Iraq is a smokescreen used as a talking points by pro-war pundits.
    See : The Grand Chessboard:American Primacy And It's Geostrategic Imperatives
    by Zbigniew Brzezinski
    http://www.wanttoknow.info/brzezinskigrandchessboard

    By the way:

    "Iraqis have wanted the U.S. out of their country almost from day one. Various surveys show that a solid majority of citizens want coalition troops to leave within a year.
    http://www.iraqanalysis.org/info/55

    In 2004, 86% of Iraqis wanted U.S. troops out - 41% immediately and 46% after a new government
    was established.
    http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...4/06iiacss.pdf


    At the start of 2006, 94% of all Iraqis supported their government setting a timeline for U.S. withdrawal from immediate departure to a timed departure over two years.

    A few months later, even a poll by the U.S. Department of State showed nearly 70% of citizens wanted U.S. occupation to end.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...601721_pf.html

    Polls in 2007 and 2008 conducted by a variety of organizations demonstrate that a majority of Iraqis want foreign troops to leave."
    http://www.iraqanalysis.org/info/55




    Point taken. You are correct, I shouldn't call them idiots. That is just an opinion. I have been around, escorted, and interviewed with numerous reporters while here, and let me tell you one thing... they are after the story that will sell headlines. They will twist and turn quotes to fit their own agendas. Don't just take my word for it, ask any Soldier who has been interviewed by these guys and have had to read their misquotes in the paper the next day. Does it happen all the time??? No. Does it happen???? All the time. There are some great reporters out there, from both sides of the isles, but in my opinion over 75% start out Anti war, Anti Bush, Anti American, or just Anti Anti! You for one should take your own advise. I HAVE first hand experience, and you dismiss me as well.
    I do not dismiss you and your experience,I dismiss your labelling of others who have firsthand experience but a view diametrically opposed to your own as "idiots" and "leftists".


    No, but they offer another viewpoint, and I might add that THEIR view is not what 90% of others in the military think. Remember that!!! you are putting all your $$ on the 10%. Good luck at that bro.


    "Iraq war veterans against the war have been shunted aside for a few reasons.The officer corps is now composed disproportionately of self-identified political conservatives and Republican partisans.
    http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item...ype=2&tid=8654

    The Iraq war has opened up an unprecedented partisan divide, and Republican support has been remarkably resilient. While there have been signs of mounting discontent—including surprisingly large active-military contributions to Ron Paul, the only Republican presidential candidate to oppose the war—the current crop of veterans is less fertile soil for the IVAW's plow than for its Vietnam-era counterpart. Put simply, veterans have been quiet partly because many are strong partisans who, at least until quite recently, have been committed to the administration, the war, or both."

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...8G8&refer=home

    By the way,more recently we have:

    Military Families Question Iraq War as Support for Bush Slips

    Dec. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Kent Fletcher, an Iraq war veteran, says he enthusiastically voted for President George W. Bush in 2000 and 2004. Now, he is a registered Democrat who questions the need for the war, the way it has been managed and the treatment of returning veterans.

    ``Saddam Hussein wasn't a threat and the culmination of my career was that war and it wasn't necessary,'' says Fletcher, 32, a financial analyst in Bluffton, South Carolina, who served almost 10 years as an officer in the U.S. Marine Corps.

    "A Bloomberg/Los Angeles Times poll shows that Fletcher's skepticism about the war reflects a growing disenchantment within the broader military community, long a bastion of support for the Bush administration and Republicans. Among active-duty military, veterans and their families, only 36 percent say it was worth going to war in Iraq. This compares with an Annenberg survey taken in 2004, one year after the invasion, which showed that 64 percent of service members and their families supported the war.

    The views of veterans and their families are now closer in line with overall public sentiment. The poll shows that 32 percent of the general population supports the war.

    `Enormous Sacrifices'

    The change isn't ``surprising,'' says Andrew Bacevich, a former Army colonel and professor of international relations at Boston University whose son was killed in Iraq in May. ``Military families have been asked to make enormous sacrifices.''


    Hating America comes when you openly and forcefully oppose all that it does. America is the strongest nation in the world, and every time someone needs help, they call us. The war is horrific, yes, but that is war. What America needs is support for the troops and misinformation to stop. You are quoting the MINORITY of people's opinions, and make to sound like it is the MAJORITY. That is a huge issue to me and many other Americans. And, frankly, it is offensive
    Senator Fulbright died eleven years ago, but many observations continue to be topical today, e.g. this quote about "superpatriots" from his book The Arrogance of Power:

    " There are two Americas. One is the America of Lincoln and Adlai Stevenson; the other is the America of Teddy Roosevelt and the modern superpatriots. One is generous and humane, the other narrowly egotistical; one is self-critical, the other self-righteous; one is sensible, the other romantic; one is good-humored, the other solemn; one is inquiring, the other pontificating; one is moderate, the other filled with passionate intensity; one is judicious and the other arrogant in the use of great power."

    From the same book:

    To criticize one's country is to do it a service and pay it a compliment. It is a service because it may spur the country to do better than it is doing; it is a compliment because it evidences a belief that the country can do better than it is doing. Criticism, in short, is more than a right; it is an act of patriotism -- a higher form of patriotism, I believe, than the familiar rituals and national adulation.
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