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    Nothing like the power of the executive branch gaining more and more power without being vetted by congress. No matter who it is under, dems, pubs, indys... Czars are unconstitutional... bottom line.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Nothing like the power of the executive branch gaining more and more power without being vetted by congress. No matter who it is under, dems, pubs, indys... Czars are unconstitutional... bottom line.
    Nobody gives a **** about the constitution and what it does and does not authorize. If they did we wouldn't have 90% of our current government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    Nobody gives a **** about the constitution and what it does and does not authorize. If they did we wouldn't have 90% of our current government.
    Not to mentions any one of the failing federal social programs we "Enjoy" today. Every power has been stripped of the state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    Nobody gives a **** about the constitution and what it does and does not authorize. If they did we wouldn't have 90% of our current government.
    Or the one that proceeded it, or for that matter the one that allowed Joe McCarthy his Nazi few years of fame and persecution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastone View Post
    Or the one that proceeded it, or for that matter the one that allowed Joe McCarthy his Nazi few years of fame and persecution.
    By current government I meant the one that exists now going roughly back to Lincoln, if not further.

    Not everything is about Obama.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    By current government I meant the one that exists now going roughly back to Lincoln, if not further.

    Not everything is about Obama.
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    When a politician guarantees a bill will pass before it is written... you might be close to tyranny...
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    Wilson should not have apologized.Obama spent half his speech up to that point calling the reps. liers then dems. get upset when someone returns the favor.And Obama was lieing. Even the congressional research service said this bill could allow illegals to be covered. I was talking to a guy about this situation and he said," this has never happened before.Reps should be more civil".I asked him if he knew dems booed Bush when he gave his speech or that 2 dems had stood on the floor of the house and called Bush a lier.He said," well he was". How do you argue with someone who doesn't even know they just destroyed their own arguement about civility.I just laughed and walked away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 416 View Post
    Wilson should not have apologized.Obama spent half his speech up to that point calling the reps. liers then dems. get upset when someone returns the favor.And Obama was lieing. Even the congressional research service said this bill could allow illegals to be covered.I was talking to a guy about this situation and he said this has never happened before.Reps should be more civil.I asked him if he knew dems booed Bush when he gave his speech or that 2 dems had stood on the floor of the house and called Bush a lier.He said," well he was". How do you argue with someone who doesn't even know they just destroyed their own arguement about civility.I just laughed and walked away.
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    The irony is as well...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    The irony is as well...
    Are you referring to me, sir? Do you bite your thumb at me??
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    Just an observation on a certain quote is all, sir. Nothing directed towards you
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    Just an observation on a certain quote is all, sir. Nothing directed towards you
    If you are saying Bush was a lier then i guess so were the other countries leaders and other countries intelligence agencies who said there were wmd.Not to mention Clinton who said the same when he was pres.Wrong does not = lie.
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    ... Nope, wasn't saying that at all.
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    Bush is irrelevant. This is another game of we can but you can't which both parties play. They all feign horror at actions taken by the other side which they themselves have done in the past. It's all bull****, it's all a distraction.

    The only thing relevant to Joe Wilson and the current round of BS is that he screwed up, technically breaking house rules, but more to the point he gave liberals a focus point. Either here or elsewhere, during the campaign I said Obama lived in the typical liberal echo chamber and that as a result you'd see the typical liberal smears of 'racist' and what not thrown around, but because they were directed at amorphous groups like anti Obama voters in general or people opposed to this or that policy of his, or critical of this or that association of his, it would be largely ineffective, and liberals would be shocked. Which has been the case up until now.

    A personal insult needs a person for it to be directed toward in order to have any effect. Joe Wilson in interrupting Obama and calling him a liar, correct or incorrect, gave the Dems that person. A southern white male who defended Strom in the past. Some independents may care, I doubt many Republicans do, but Wilson just energized the Democrat base by giving them a new person to hate. A big advantage the Republicans have had as of late is the lack of a focus for Democrat ire and slurs, which is why the Dems were so busy trying to keep Cheney and Bush as an issue with potential investigations and what not while slurring random anonymous grandmothers and grandfather at townhall meetings. They just lost that advantage to a degree because Wilson, with his poor timing and context, put a face to the opposition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Its a tactic Obama and many liberals have been finely honing. try to marginalize you as a rabble rouser, like they tried to say about people actually wanting answers at town halls. Or try to marginalize you by calling you racist, or ignorant, or whatever.
    do you mean kinda like a previous administration calling libs "not patriotic" for not supporting the war in iraq and/or the patriot act?


    lets face it, both sides are full of sh!t and try their darnedest to pass their agenda along at the expense of the average person. Neither side truly gives a rat ass about anyone who disagrees with them. They will just use whatever tactic they can to demorialize and demean. None of this will change folks, and the constant b!tching about it wont do diddly, except make a change every 4 years, and boy that is always helpful
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    do you mean kinda like a previous administration calling libs "not patriotic" for not supporting the war in iraq and/or the patriot act?


    lets face it, both sides are full of sh!t and try their darnedest to pass their agenda along at the expense of the average person. Neither side truly gives a rat ass about anyone who disagrees with them. They will just use whatever tactic they can to demorialize and demean. None of this will change folks, and the constant b!tching about it wont do diddly, except make a change every 4 years, and boy that is always helpful
    so what do we actually do to make a difference?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    do you mean kinda like a previous administration calling libs "not patriotic" for not supporting the war in iraq and/or the patriot act?
    I'm wondering where those anti-war activists are now that their own man is expanding our involvement in the middle east back towards Afghanistan... It appears their efforts were less about the war and more about politics, from what I observe. I do agree that the two parties are different sides of the same coin.


    Back on topic:

    The Senate has clearly admitted Joe Wilson's message was correct (regardless of how inappropriately timed it might have been). Twice the dems have shot down provisions to ensure illegal aliens are not covered by the public option, and now they are suddenly backing it. Of course the media will not cover this change of direction, and will continue to demonize the poor-mannered Wilson as a representative of the racist radical right (soon to be wearing white hoods and proclaiming themselves the RRR, of course).

    But make no mistake about it, BO plans to fulfill his campaign promise to give amnesty to the estimated ~20 million illegals in the country, making this argument over alien insurance coverage irrelevant. First healthcare, then Card Check (unionization of all industries), followed by amnesty are his "must pass" initiatives to gain a critical mass of American entitlement. He has explained this agenda from the beginning of his campaign trail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    do you mean kinda like a previous administration calling libs "not patriotic" for not supporting the war in iraq and/or the patriot act?


    lets face it, both sides are full of sh!t and try their darnedest to pass their agenda along at the expense of the average person. Neither side truly gives a rat ass about anyone who disagrees with them. They will just use whatever tactic they can to demorialize and demean. None of this will change folks, and the constant b!tching about it wont do diddly, except make a change every 4 years, and boy that is always helpful
    The difference there was that there is a difference between "not patriotic" and "lunatic who shouldn't be allowed to speak in public and should have their first amendment rights revoked"
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpee View Post
    so what do we actually do to make a difference?
    this is a major concern. For decades, we have sat on our collective asses and done little to change anything (myself included). We have let it get to the point where there truly is little we can do, because regardless of who we vote for the political lines are blurred and we get the same garbage.

    I am sure many here will shout and scream for "revolution", but would never do it, as they realize their lives truly are not that terrible. Once the public sentiment gets bad enough, we will be placated by lowering gas prices a bit, or further troop withdrawl, or whatever will appease the blind masses.

    We must face it, we are stuck, and it is our own fault
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    Quote Originally Posted by SokVichet View Post
    I'm wondering where those anti-war activists are now that their own man is expanding our involvement in the middle east back towards Afghanistan... It appears their efforts were less about the war and more about politics, from what I observe. I do agree that the two parties are different sides of the same coin.

    the only issue I have here is that there is a distinct difference in the minds of many between the need and validity of the war in Iraq in comparison to the war in Afghanistan
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    the only issue I have here is that there is a distinct difference in the minds of many between the need and validity of the war in Iraq in comparison to the war in Afghanistan
    Agreed. I do not feel fit to comment on the difference due to my limited understanding of the situation there. However, I can confidently point out the obvious hypocrisy of the President and his supporters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SokVichet View Post
    Agreed. I do not feel fit to comment on the difference due to my limited understanding of the situation there. However, I can confidently point out the obvious hypocrisy of the President and his supporters.
    Well that was always in the making. Clinton was plenty adventurous with the military, the majority of the current 'anti war' crowd didn't give a damn. The left is only anti Republican Initiated war, just like the right is only against Democrat Initiated government spending. If Bush had presented Obama's health plan to congress the Dems would have found reasons to hate it and Republicans would have been cozying up to every geezer from sea to shining sea to assure them no illegals would be covered and their government benefits wouldn't be touched at all. Hell, they'd even be expanded!

    It's all bull****. Which is what makes me laugh. All this crap right now between the Republicans and Democrats about this bill. Like it's really not going to pass. Sure... And like it's not going to be a bloated piece of **** that increases their power over the industry and reduces our choices/benefits, and as if anyone doesn't know that all they really give a **** about is making sure their particular special interests get properly greased. Anyone who doesn't get an adequate reach around in the initial bill will get taken care of when it goes to conference, and the final bill will come out reading longer and dryer than War and Peace and in language that may as well be foreign with all the provisos and qualifications and references to other bills and portions of bills, such that no one without at least an IQ of 190 or above and a terminally whistling nose will be able to read and understand it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    this is a major concern. For decades, we have sat on our collective asses and done little to change anything (myself included). We have let it get to the point where there truly is little we can do, because regardless of who we vote for the political lines are blurred and we get the same garbage.

    I am sure many here will shout and scream for "revolution", but would never do it, as they realize their lives truly are not that terrible. Once the public sentiment gets bad enough, we will be placated by lowering gas prices a bit, or further troop withdrawl, or whatever will appease the blind masses.

    We must face it, we are stuck, and it is our own fault
    The only thing that could possibly save us from ourselves is term limits on Congress, but since the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional we've doomed ourselves. WE are too stupid to kick the bums out of Congress.

    As someone with over 24 years of experience working for the Federal government, I can tell you firsthand that the amount of waste and corruption is unbelieveable. Instead of trying to cut costs, low level managers and supervisors are given instructions to spend every penny of their budgets for fear that they won't get enough money the next year.

    Specific examples of the kinds of waste typical in the government:

    1) A cleaning contract for a building that was quoted at $25,000 a year ended up costing $90,000 a year because it had to go to a minority/women-owned business to meet a quota.

    2) "Cost plus" contracts that basically guarantee a hefty profit for defense contractors. The higher the cost, the more profit they make.

    3) Hiring commercial ships (i.e. car carriers) to move Army tanks, humvees, etc. even though the Army has their own ships that could transport all the cargo.

    I could go on and on, but the bottom line is the Federal government isn't working for a profit and there is no incentive to be fiscally conservative.

    The only thing we can do is demand smaller government. Cut back on defense spending. Stop the growth of entitlement programs like medicare and social security, even if it means taking a hard-line stance like freezing the budget.

    Most importantly, refuse to let the same corrupt Congressman to be re-elected year after year. Don't be blinded by voting either Republican or Democrat. They're both corrupt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by enswalters View Post
    The only thing that could possibly save us from ourselves is term limits on Congress, but since the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional we've doomed ourselves. WE are too stupid to kick the bums out of Congress.
    Wouldn't do anything but speed up the corruption process. The same scumbags are getting elected with term limits. They just have more limited time to act on their plans to rape people. The end result of term limits would be even more corruption happening at break-neck speed and more resources poured into the system by special interests to secure the next stooge to run when term limits expire.

    Most importantly, refuse to let the same corrupt Congressman to be re-elected year after year. Don't be blinded by voting either Republican or Democrat. They're both corrupt.
    Agreed, but they're also essentially rigged the system and, more importantly, got most people believing a vote for anyone but either major party is 'wasted'.
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