DHS Document on Right Wing Extremism

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    We're wasting our time with this line of questioning. Reason is not the driving force behind the other side of this argument. Plain statements are in order:

    The military is made of human beings, not saints, and is commanded by politicians, who are definitely not saints.

    While soldiers are not to be confused with the policies they are asked to enforce, neither should they congratulated for enforcing policies that are not constitutional or serve the end of protecting the freedom of Americans.

    It is more than possible, in fact likely, that policy they are asked to enforce will not be in the interest of protecting the liberty or safety of American citizens.

    While I respect them for their willingness to sacrifice to the end of protecting liberty and safety and this mutes individual criticisms, soldiers are not morons and should consider the ends to which they are going to be put by the largely incompetent civilian leadership before they join the military.

    These states are mere fact. They do not condone or encourage "spitting " on soldiers as some here have irrationally suggested. They are mere clarifications of an issue that too many people onone side of the debate concerning the use of the militaery try and cloud by playing on the emotions of the patriotic and overly/personally involved.
    irrationally suggested? Do you live under a rock?

    As for your statement of morality as a soldier. Do you REALLY feel that has any warrant in the military? Your views are so very tunneled and skewed that you apparently know nothing about how our defense system works. If a soldier stands up and says he doesn't believe in what is being done so he will not perform that mission... what do you expect to happen. Rainbows and chocolate waiting at home for him? Or maybe his nice fluffy kitten ready to cuddle up for a warm nap near the fire place. You have a Utopian expectation of life. You call me when people aren't trying to kill Americans in one form or another, and I will concede to your argument that Soldiers are immoral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    irrationally suggested? Do you live under a rock?
    Yes, and last I checked I had not only not spit on any soldiers, but the last donation I had given to someone was to a local guy who my dad used to work with who works personally with vets who have mental problems adjusting to civilian life. Before that it was my friend's lukemia charity.

    As for your statement of morality as a soldier. Do you REALLY feel that has any warrant in the military? Your views are so very tunneled and skewed that you apparently know nothing about how our defense system works.
    No, DA, it is your views that are tunneled and skewed to the point that anyone not offerring free blow jobs to enlisted men is somehow defiling their honor and that of the whole military. Please explain to me what is so wrong with this particular statement. I'm not asking for another emotional tirade about soldiers being spit on, how hard their lives are, what wonderful people they all are, etc., etc., etc. I want to know what specifically is wrong with this statement: "Not all US military missions are in the best interests of the United States, especially when they are not constitutionally authorized and do not serve to protect the freedoms and lives of American citizens from clear and present dangers."

    If a soldier stands up and says he doesn't believe in what is being done so he will not perform that mission... what do you expect to happen?
    I know, I know, God forbid the enlisted man think for himself, the world might end in an orgy of gay ass ****ing or something... This is completely beside the point as no one is blaming the soldier for the policy he is enforcing, just as I wouldn't blame a gun or a knife for the way it is used. However a soldier is not an inanimate object and can't be regarded as such.

    Rainbows and chocolate waiting at home for him? Or maybe his nice fluffy kitten ready to cuddle up for a warm nap near the fire place. You have a Utopian expectation of life. You call me when people aren't trying to kill Americans in one form or another, and I will concede to your argument that Soldiers are immoral.
    Sure. Just point me to the statement where I said soldiers are immoral you liar. Quote me directly. Where is it? I have said soldiers are capable of making moral judgements on their own. How the **** does that translate what passes for your mind into "soldiers are immoral"?

    You are exactly the type of person the Hannities of the world love to manipulate. God forbid someone question a policy, it's direct affront to our precious troops and the God awful and so delicate sense of pride, why the merest act of questioning anything they are ordered to do must be the highest form of treason!

    Death penalty to anyone who dares think for themselves!

    I'm sure all of the 30,000 dead Iraqis had as their primary objective the destruction of American's freedoms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    Yes, and last I checked I had not only not spit on any soldiers, but the last donation I had given to someone was to a local guy who my dad used to work with who works personally with vets who have mental problems adjusting to civilian life. Before that it was my friend's lukemia charity.
    This was a generalization, not directed at you per say, but aimed at the rationale that US soldiers are bad because they carry out the orders from above them, and that since not disregarding such orders is a mark on their moral character.


    No, DA, it is your views that are tunneled and skewed to the point that anyone not offerring free blow jobs to enlisted men is somehow defiling their honor and that of the whole military. Please explain to me what is so wrong with this particular statement. I'm not asking for another emotional tirade about soldiers being spit on, how hard their lives are, what wonderful people they all are, etc., etc., etc. I want to know what specifically is wrong with this statement: "Not all US military missions are in the best interests of the United States, especially when they are not constitutionally authorized and do not serve to protect the freedoms and lives of American citizens from clear and present dangers."
    There is NOTHING wrong with THAT statement. But your notions earlier were not expressly directed at the policy makers.

    And as I said, Soldiers DO warrant a certain level of respect. It is easy to criticize from behind a keyboard.

    I know, I know, God forbid the enlisted man think for himself, the world might end in an orgy of gay ass ****ing or something... This is completely beside the point as no one is blaming the soldier for the policy he is enforcing, just as I wouldn't blame a gun or a knife for the way it is used. However a soldier is not an inanimate object and can't be regarded as such.
    HOLY FCK man... You just don't get it. A soldier CAN think for themselves... BUT can they act for themselves... FCK NO. Get that into you skull, democratically elected officials gets to tell the military what to do, the E3 on the front line getting shot at has no SAY in what he/she can or cannot elect to do.

    Sure. Just point me to the statement where I said soldiers are immoral you liar. Quote me directly. Where is it? I have said soldiers are capable of making moral judgements on their own. How the **** does that translate what passes for your mind into "soldiers are immoral"?
    Your statement of soldiers can think for themselves and does not absolve them of the atrocities they have committed implies their acts are immoral, thus they are immoral... do you not get your own statements?

    You are exactly the type of person the Hannities of the world love to manipulate. God forbid someone question a policy, it's direct affront to our precious troops and the God awful and so delicate sense of pride, why the merest act of questioning anything they are ordered to do must be the highest form of treason!

    Death penalty to anyone who dares think for themselves!

    I'm sure all of the 30,000 dead Iraqis had as their primary objective the destruction of American's freedoms.
    I don't even know why I debate with you... you have no concept of the military heirarchy, and what a troop can or cannot do. Question policy all you want, i don't care about policy... but disregarding the troop at the ground level serving out those policies pisses me off. Join the military and walk up to your CGO, and let them know the dead Iraqis hold more weight in your mind than your own fallen citizens, and see what that gets you.

    Hannity or not, faulting someone because they respect what the military does is ridiculous. Enjoy your freedoms my friend... there is always Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    They do however have a choice whether or not to join the military, and I assume have some idea of the missions they are go on beforehand. I can understand not criticizing soldiers for policy, but nor do they deserve automatic congrats for completing a mission. If they want congratualtions then the mission better be constitutional, authorized along the same lines, and to the benefit of the population at large in defending their liberties. I have yet to see a single mission that I know of that fits that bill in the last few decades at least.
    I don't think congratulations are necessarily in order, but criticizing those sworn to follow the orders of elected officials for following the orders of elected officials is ignorant.

    Also please stop the Just Following BS. Soldiers are humans, they can and are in fact required to make ethical judgements about their missions. They are not just androids that kill on command. This constant prattle about them having no choice is nonsense. They do have a choice. That is at once the source of the respect they deserve and the rock and a hard place they may find themselves in when enforcing policy not in the US's best interests.
    Obviously you've never been a Soldier, so I'll excuse your ignorance. Soldiers take pride in their country and thus take pride in executing the orders of their country. They have a choice....to be a good Soldier or bad Soldier. A good Soldier follows orders with very few exceptions.

    This actually came up in my Officer Basic Course. A chaplain was giving a block of instruction on Just War Theory. My question was, "Why does just war theory matter to us when we have to go to war when ordered no matter whether it was a just or unjust war?" I didn't get an answer, nor did I expect one. The US has many checks and balances, Soldiers are not nor were ever envisioned as one of them. I would not feel an ounce of remorse for participating in an unjust war, though it may cause me to question the individuals who sent me there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I don't think congratulations are necessarily in order, but criticizing those sworn to follow the orders of elected officials for following the orders of elected officials is ignorant.
    Why? It's not something I'm prone to do, I'd rather give people, especially soldiers the benefit of the doubt. But it's not like what the military does is by and large a secret. However, doesn't joining and swearing to follow those orders at least on some level indicate a general agreement with them on an individual level?

    Obviously you've never been a Soldier, so I'll excuse your ignorance.
    Irrelevant. I have been and continue to be a citizen whose life and liberty are on the line and in greater danger these days than before because of what politicians have ordered the military to do currently and in the recent past. And since the last attack, 9/11, was essentially in my backyard and a few hundred people I was connected with got wiped among the thousands, my opinion will ****ing be heard, military experience or not.

    So soldiers are automatons then. You see, here is the crux of the issue: you can't have your cake and eat it too. If soldiers were mindless wretches who were trained like dogs to merely do this or that upon command, I'd agree. I do not however agree, nor do I give a **** about tradition, military law, and past experience as I think those are major causes of some of the problems with military action. As such, I would want to see more often than we do these days, soldiers and especiall exsoldiers, speaking out when they do have a chance and a choice.

    A good Soldier follows orders with very few exceptions.
    So there are exceptions then, as I said. Thanks.

    This actually came up in my Officer Basic Course. A chaplain was giving a block of instruction on Just War Theory. My question was, "Why does just war theory matter to us when we have to go to war when ordered no matter whether it was a just or unjust war?" I didn't get an answer, nor did I expect one.
    You should have pressed the question. The answer might not have been good, or useful, or one either one of us would want to hear. But the question needs asking in my opinion if the military is to be regarded as more than a mere tool, like a knife or gun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    Why? It's not something I'm prone to do, I'd rather give people, especially soldiers the benefit of the doubt. But it's not like what the military does is by and large a secret. However, doesn't joining and swearing to follow those orders at least on some level indicate a general agreement with them on an individual level?
    I joined because I love this country for what it represents and its founding principles, though I agree that of this country's principles have changed for the worst over time. I also joined to pay for college. This wasn't my primary purpose for joining, but many Soldiers do join initially as a way of bettering themselves. The military offers "a way out" for many poor and and inner city kids.

    Irrelevant. I have been and continue to be a citizen whose life and liberty are on the line and in greater danger these days than before because of what politicians have ordered the military to do currently and in the recent past. And since the last attack, 9/11, was essentially in my backyard and a few hundred people I was connected with got wiped among the thousands, my opinion will ****ing be heard, military experience or not.
    You misread what I was saying. I didn't say your opinion was irrelevent, I was saying if you have never been a Soldier or been around other Soldiers you probably don't understand a Soldier's mentality. Soldiers often take pride in remaining apolitical and following orders. A professional Soldier is an occupation, the best Soldiers seek to be the best at their job that they can be, just like the best firefighters or police officers seek to be the best at their job they can be. As a Company Commander, my goal is to get my 200 Soldiers as ready to execute the mission tasked to me as possible. I want them to know their job and know the skills necessary to do whatever is asked of us, whether that is assisting in Katrina or fighting in Afghanistan. I know that these Soldier's lives are in my hand and that distractions can be lethal to them. While you seem to be considering whether force should be applied. They are considering the best way to apply that force. If they expanded to determining whether force should be applied, it would be at the detriment of their mission and ultimately could cause Soldiers to die.

    So soldiers are automatons then. You see, here is the crux of the issue: you can't have your cake and eat it too. If soldiers were mindless wretches who were trained like dogs to merely do this or that upon command, I'd agree. I do not however agree, nor do I give a **** about tradition, military law, and past experience as I think those are major causes of some of the problems with military action. As such, I would want to see more often than we do these days, soldiers and especiall exsoldiers, speaking out when they do have a chance and a choice.
    I'm a Soldier speaking out right now. At the same time, Soldiers have to be very careful about speaking out as it is illegal to speak out against those in your chain of command for while still active duty. Soldiers are not mindless wretches trained like dogs, they just understand that they execute orders, not decide orders. That's why our armed forces is ran by civilians, as a check and balance against military dictatorship.

    So there are exceptions then, as I said. Thanks.
    There are exceptions, I won't murder a baby even if the President is standing next to me ordering me to do so. At the same time, if I am ordered to execute a mission that goes against my sensibilities on what the role of the government and military should be, I'll execute anyways. I may not like it, but I took an oath.

    You should have pressed the question. The answer might not have been good, or useful, or one either one of us would want to hear. But the question needs asking in my opinion if the military is to be regarded as more than a mere tool, like a knife or gun.
    I really already knew the answer. Just war is irrelivant to Soldiers, as they don't pick when and where they'll fight. I don't think the military should be regarded as anything more than a tool to execute directives for the elected officials in this country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I joined because I love this country for what it represents and its founding principles, though I agree that of this country's principles have changed for the worst over time. I also joined to pay for college. This wasn't my primary purpose for joining, but many Soldiers do join initially as a way of bettering themselves. The military offers "a way out" for many poor and and inner city kids.
    And I'm not happy about that as I feel some of them are basically railroaded into the military. However, as to you specifically: one, thanks for the service; two, I personally will never vote to send your ass anywhere unless the threat is clear, present, and about to blow up; three, I have no problem footing the education bill as I'd rather have smart people with guns than stupid. Now try and not get shot.

    You misread what I was saying. I didn't say your opinion was irrelevent, I was saying if you have never been a Soldier or been around other Soldiers you probably don't understand a Soldier's mentality.
    Dad was a ranger, trust me when I say I get it. I might have been in the military too had I not been 6'4" by the time I was in fifth grade with ****ty eyes and knees. Suffice it to say I was the only kid I know not in the military who awoke to reveille almost every morning. Dad was a card.

    Soldiers often take pride in remaining apolitical and following orders. A professional Soldier is an occupation, the best Soldiers seek to be the best at their job that they can be, just like the best firefighters or police officers seek to be the best at their job they can be. As a Company Commander, my goal is to get my 200 Soldiers as ready to execute the mission tasked to me as possible. I want them to know their job and know the skills necessary to do whatever is asked of us, whether that is assisting in Katrina or fighting in Afghanistan. I know that these Soldier's lives are in my hand and that distractions can be lethal to them. While you seem to be considering whether force should be applied. They are considering the best way to apply that force. If they expanded to determining whether force should be applied, it would be at the detriment of their mission and ultimately could cause Soldiers to die.
    Fair enough, as a matter of priorities I could care less if the 'rightness' of the mission is way, way down on the list for the most part.

    I'm a Soldier speaking out right now. At the same time, Soldiers have to be very careful about speaking out as it is illegal to speak out against those in your chain of command for while still active duty. Soldiers are not mindless wretches trained like dogs, they just understand that they execute orders, not decide orders. That's why our armed forces is ran by civilians, as a check and balance against military dictatorship.
    Good balance against dictatorship, bad balance against frequent, bloody ass wars it seems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB View Post
    Now try and not get shot.
    Good advice.


    Dad was a ranger, trust me when I say I get it. I might have been in the military too had I not been 6'4" by the time I was in fifth grade with ****ty eyes and knees. Suffice it to say I was the only kid I know not in the military who awoke to reveille almost every morning. Dad was a card.
    Damn....how tall are you?

    Fair enough, as a matter of priorities I could care less if the 'rightness' of the mission is way, way down on the list for the most part.
    Also, what's 'right' at the tactical level is a lot different than what's right at the strategic level. Congress and the President may be worried about whether invading Iraq is the 'right' course of action, whereas I'm worried about my Soldiers doing the 'right' thing staying alive and not killing non-combatants. On some level, it could be analogous to the question of whether any Soldiers in Nazi Germany did the 'right' thing, or were they all wrong simply because their nation was wrong strategically.

    Good balance against dictatorship, bad balance against frequent, bloody ass wars it seems.
    True.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Damn....how tall are you?
    Still 6'4". Seems that was all I had in me.

    True.
    And not necessarily in the army's interest.
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    It's really happening. First,we witnessed the martyrdom of that saint of a man Dr.Tiller. Now, the holocaust killer.

    There was also the muslim convert who shot the soldier. Sorry, I forgot that doesn't count.
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    The complaint was never against the possibility of dimwits, but that the report lumped in anyone and everyone to the right of Marx as a possible suspect. They put the cart before the horse to score political points. It's like saying lefties are more likely to break windows. Poll those 'anarchist' rallies where you see people flinging bricks and what not and you'll find a ****load of extreme leftists. the issue is trying to equate an unpopular political opinion with the likelihood of criminality.
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