Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

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    Law Enforcement Against Prohibition


    Many police officers are asking the question: if prohibition didn't work for alcohol, why are we in denial about it working for other things

    YouTube - Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

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    Just to add

    COPS SAY LEGALIZE DRUGS!
    ASK US WHY
    After nearly four decades of fueling the U.S. policy of a war on drugs with over a trillion tax dollars and 37 million arrests for nonviolent drug offenses, our confined population has quadrupled making building prisons the fastest growing industry in the United States. More than 2.2 million of our citizens are currently incarcerated and every year we arrest an additional 1.9 million more guaranteeing those prisons will be bursting at their seams. Every year we choose to continue this war will cost U.S. taxpayers another 69 billion dollars. Despite all the lives we have destroyed and all the money so ill spent, today illicit drugs are cheaper, more potent, and far easier to get than they were 35 years ago at the beginning of the war on drugs. Meanwhile, people continue dying in our streets while drug barons and terrorists continue to grow richer than ever before. We would suggest that this scenario must be the very definition of a failed public policy. This madness must cease!
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    I bet I can find more cops saying they shouldn't be legalized... Decminalized, maybe. Just providing a source of opinion doesn't make it right or factual.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    I bet I can find more cops saying they shouldn't be legalized... Decminalized, maybe. Just providing a source of opinion doesn't make it right or factual.
    That's because the argument for drug legalization is counter-intuitive. Between the heavy propaganda that started during the Nixon era and with continued violence associated with the drug trade of course most people's immediate reaction is going to be against it. Having looked into it in a lot more depth, from purely an economics stand point, legalizing (and not just decriminalizing) drugs will end cartels and gangs by completely cutting off their income streams. I've heard some very good well thought out arguments and plausible ways of implementing that policy that make so much more sense than continuing this failed policy. Both of my parents are in law enforcement and after my explanation, changed their minds about it.
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    You always hear great arguments but none have ever been put into effect or if they have they haven't worked. You also have to look at what scale they're talking. Switzerland isn't the US. In size or culture. Cartels and drug runners aren't in it for the drugs they're in it for the money which means if that source of income dries up they'll move to the next source. This logic pretty much uses the theory that everything will be okay with no law or governing body. it's all fine and good until you're a victim. then you want action.

    I've seen plenty of arguments for decriminalization and many make sense, to me. I have yet to see any that make sense for legalization. those also vary according to the particular type of drug they want legalized.
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    This is a black and white society...decriminalization is too complex a concept for most to understand.

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    Most police won't support this but not because it's wrong. The drug war allows them to take peoples' property even if that property wasn't bought with drug money. It also allows them to obtain funding for APCs and other urban tank type things and equip paramilitary assault forces in places with no violent crime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpfisher View Post
    Most police won't support this but not because it's wrong. The drug war allows them to take peoples' property even if that property wasn't bought with drug money. It also allows them to obtain funding for APCs and other urban tank type things and equip paramilitary assault forces in places with no violent crime.
    Valid point....any organization with power, by it's very nature, has the first priority of EXPANDING or PROTECTING it's power.
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    I don't know how valid a point that is. Most of those large and expensive items are subsidized through larger gov't. Not through propert taken. Monies and proprty recovered isn't always put back through the police system. Part so it does but I doubt that's the top reason for taking property since its attourneys that do the actual taking.

    I will say money isn't monitored closely enough in where it's spent and too many depts want the cool new thing over what is needed for their jurisdiction. No different than any other angency or employee out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    You always hear great arguments but none have ever been put into effect or if they have they haven't worked. You also have to look at what scale they're talking. Switzerland isn't the US. In size or culture.
    How can you say that when this country already tried to prohibit alcohol and decided to legalize and tax it instead. Sure we still have issues with it, but you don't have the crime associated with the black market, which is one of the leading arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    Cartels and drug runners aren't in it for the drugs they're in it for the money which means if that source of income dries up they'll move to the next source. This logic pretty much uses the theory that everything will be okay with no law or governing body. it's all fine and good until you're a victim. then you want action.
    Obviously they're in it for the money, but the reason drugs are so profitable is because of the mark ups. Cocaine is the most marked up product in circulation above 1000%. Combine that with the addictive nature of drugs and you have an obvious demand.

    So what's left on the black market after drugs? Bookies? Prostitution? Guns? Extortion? Robberies? Ransom Kidnapping? What illegal/ black market business model is as profitable and easy for the street gangs of the world to get into? I don't disagree there are other illegal black market ventures that this elements will go to, but nothing on the same playing field as the drug trade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by badfish51581 View Post
    That's because the argument for drug legalization is counter-intuitive. Between the heavy propaganda that started during the Nixon era and with continued violence associated with the drug trade of course most people's immediate reaction is going to be against it. Having looked into it in a lot more depth, from purely an economics stand point, legalizing (and not just decriminalizing) drugs will end cartels and gangs by completely cutting off their income streams. I've heard some very good well thought out arguments and plausible ways of implementing that policy that make so much more sense than continuing this failed policy. Both of my parents are in law enforcement and after my explanation, changed their minds about it.
    You are right on:

    http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre52a44i-us-drugs-un/
    Anti-narcotics drive has fuelled drug cartels: U.N.

    VIENNA, Mar. 11, 2009 (Reuters) — A U.N. anti-narcotics drive has backfired in part by making drug cartels so rich they can bribe their way through West Africa and Central America, U.N. crime agency chief Antonio Maria Costa said on Wednesday.

    The 10-year "war on drugs" campaign had cut drug output and the number of users, he said. But it had a "dramatic unintended consequence" -- profit-gorged trafficking gangs destabilizing nations already plagued by poverty and joblessness.

    When mafias can buy elections, candidates, political parties, in a word, power, the consequences can only be highly destabilizing," Costa, head of the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime , told a U.N. drug policy review meeting.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMAs6o9sCy4"]YouTube - Time to Legalize Drugs? Ethan Nadelmann on FOX News[/ame]
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    You don't think legal drugs would still have black market versions as soon as any restictions/taxes are placed on them? Now you'll just have to fight illegal versions over legsl versions. It'll just be a different fight.

    My point that making an illegal drug legal in today's society is a theory best not tested. While you use prohibition as a way to fight for your cause I use it as a way to fight against it. prohibition didn't work because alcohol had become too ingrained in that society that they were not willing to let it go and were willing to risk brain damage and death to get their high in large numbers. As soon as you let loose the floodgates on drugs and there's a mistake to be made, there's no turning back.

    I support decriminalization.

    Since there is no large scale, successful model that can argue your side and my argument can't be won by the same token it just comes down to arguing two opinions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    You don't think legal drugs would still have black market versions as soon as any restictions/taxes are placed on them? Now you'll just have to fight illegal versions over legsl versions. It'll just be a different fight.

    My point that making an illegal drug legal in today's society is a theory best not tested. While you use prohibition as a way to fight for your cause I use it as a way to fight against it. prohibition didn't work because alcohol had become too ingrained in that society that they were not willing to let it go and were willing to risk brain damage and death to get their high in large numbers. As soon as you let loose the floodgates on drugs and there's a mistake to be made, there's no turning back.

    I support decriminalization.

    Since there is no large scale, successful model that can argue your side and my argument can't be won by the same token it just comes down to arguing two opinions.
    Decriminalization,got ya. Good idea.Like the Netherlands.
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    Where in anything that I have written does it say continue down the exact same path that we're on now? I agree with what the Fox clip you posted said. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle but it isn't something that can just be thrown out there. it'll have to be slowly tested and observed to make sure we don't, with good intentions, make things even worse than they are now.
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    I just don't believe the answer is "this currently doesn't work so let's destroy it completely and go with something 180 degrees different".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    Where in anything that I have written does it say continue down the exact same path that we're on now? I agree with what the Fox clip you posted said. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle but it isn't something that can just be thrown out there. it'll have to be slowly tested and observed to make sure we don't, with good intentions, make things even worse than they are now.


    They cannot get much worse:

    U.S. Leads The World In Illegal Drug Use
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4222322.shtml
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    That's the difference between your opinion and mine. I've seen first hand on a personal and professional level on how much worse it can get. I don't see an advantage of legalizing drugs to the potential users as much as lower crowded prisons with users/dealers that still could of led a decent lifestyle.
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    The war on drugs has long been, in large part, about money. The urge to control intoxicants has been one of the greatest powers driving economies for centuries. We all know about the Dutch and British East India companies. The Mayans and Aztecs used cacao for money. Chocolate contains caffeine, theobromine and anandamide – which has a similar effect to marijuana’s THC. Today, coffee remains dominant in commerce, second only to oil.

    In the nineteenth century, China was home to the Opium Wars – this time, force was used to keep drug markets open, not closed.

    The key is there is demand for drugs, and so there shall be supply. If drugs are restricted, we will have human misery, but people will pay more or find other intoxicating alternatives. Most modern drug abuse has probably been with pharmaceuticals, anyway – barbiturates, benzodiazepines, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    I don't know how valid a point that is. Most of those large and expensive items are subsidized through larger gov't. Not through propert taken. Monies and proprty recovered isn't always put back through the police system. Part so it does but I doubt that's the top reason for taking property since its attourneys that do the actual taking.

    I will say money isn't monitored closely enough in where it's spent and too many depts want the cool new thing over what is needed for their jurisdiction. No different than any other angency or employee out there.

    Yeah, I agree with that. Most places are getting the money from anti-drug funding through federal grants. There are places that pretty much completely fund themselves off drug seizures too. A very few of them are probably legit seizures of some major gang leader too, I just have issue with them selling Johnny Dimebag's house and car just because he was selling a little of his stash to his friends down the street. Take away everything someone owns when they already have used illegal means to make money and then expect them to start and hold down a normal job with no possessions or transportation? That doesn't help him or society as a whole at all.
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    just like what jayhawk said...cartels are in it for the money...so is the government! they all know who the drug dealers are but they insist and busting the little guy!

    removing the stigmata from drugs my help prevent future users.

    i do think the government should capitalize off of it from a taxpayer standpoint. american black market has got to be the larger than any american corporation and operates tax free. nationwide flat sales tax...but thats another subject!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lutherblsstt View Post
    They cannot get much worse:

    U.S. Leads The World In Illegal Drug Use
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4222322.shtml
    You are such an idiot, its amazing. We also lead the world in per capita income, per capita use of fossil fuels, etc. Things can always get significantly worse, and drug use would not go DOWN if it was legalized.
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    Quote Originally Posted by badfish51581 View Post
    How can you say that when this country already tried to prohibit alcohol and decided to legalize and tax it instead. Sure we still have issues with it, but you don't have the crime associated with the black market, which is one of the leading arguments.
    The problem with that was that alchohol was legal for a LONG time before being made illegal. With most of the drugs that are illegal now they have never been legal. Once you go that direction, and 1/4 of the population are users, its impossible to go back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    The problem with that was that alchohol was legal for a LONG time before being made illegal. With most of the drugs that are illegal now they have never been legal. Once you go that direction, and 1/4 of the population are users, its impossible to go back.
    false.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    false.

    Not sure which piece you think is false. Beer glorious beer dates back to before the birth of christ, distilled alchohol to the 12th century or so. heroin? needed to have needles for heroin, so much later. cocaine? crack? also later. As well, the process of creating heroin or cocaine isn't quite so easy to do from raw materials in the home as making beer or wine is.

    And historically once a government allows free access to something, ever taking it away again even if it is causing huge problems is almost impossible.

    I'd have no problems with the legalization of drugs if all felony crimes against persons carried a death penalty, and if there were no food stamps, section 8 housing, welfare etc that eat my income up via taxes so that the addicts can stay high all day long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Not sure which piece you think is false. Beer glorious beer dates back to before the birth of christ, distilled alchohol to the 12th century or so. heroin? needed to have needles for heroin, so much later. cocaine? crack? also later. As well, the process of creating heroin or cocaine isn't quite so easy to do from raw materials in the home as making beer or wine is.

    And historically once a government allows free access to something, ever taking it away again even if it is causing huge problems is almost impossible.

    I'd have no problems with the legalization of drugs if all felony crimes against persons carried a death penalty, and if there were no food stamps, section 8 housing, welfare etc that eat my income up via taxes so that the addicts can stay high all day long.
    cocaine, pot, LSD, ecstasy, meth and heroin were all legal...and you do not need needles for heroin.

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    Most illegal drugs were once legal and many were considered remedies

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    cocaine, pot, LSD, ecstasy, meth and heroin were all legal...and you do not need needles for heroin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    Most illegal drugs were once legal and many were considered remedies

    Right, but alchohol was used for far longer, and was and is considered a part of daily life for many, both before + after (and during) prohibition. the use of most of those is far more recent, and isn't as culturally ingrained except for perhaps psychedelic mushrooms and a few other similar things that were in use by american indians and some other groups for religious observances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Right, but alchohol was used for far longer, and was and is considered a part of daily life for many, both before + after (and during) prohibition. the use of most of those is far more recent, and isn't as culturally ingrained except for perhaps psychedelic mushrooms and a few other similar things that were in use by american indians and some other groups for religious observances.
    and it is easily taxable.

    I wasn't disagreeing with this point, just your erroneous statement that most drugs have never been legal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    and it is easily taxable.

    I wasn't disagreeing with this point, just your erroneous statement that most drugs have never been legal.

    Ah true, I suppose my thought was more around that they weren't legal for as long of a time or such an ingrained part of life, but what I wrote was never. I could use some coffee, this mornings workout was rough

    But i'm all for legalization, so long as no money out of my taxes goes to drug users, or their families. Thats the bigger problem is that with "progressive" policies effectively all we do is create larger and larger population groups that are unproductive economically, and tax the smaller and smaller groups higher to pay for benefits to the unproductive. Eventually it becomes untenable, as you have to have a constantly growing population for it to work even in the shorter term. It will be interesting to see what happens to germany over the next 10-20 years as they struggle with birth rates below replacement, and how that affects GDP.
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    if you put a .45 in the skull of every crack dealer, even if only suspected, drugs would be less of an issue. The war on drugs is the right thing to do. Its just they are doing it wrong, execute them on the spot. Or have public executions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero V View Post
    if you put a .45 in the skull of every crack dealer, even if only suspected, drugs would be less of an issue. The war on drugs is the right thing to do. Its just they are doing it wrong, execute them on the spot. Or have public executions.
    You think supplying a substance to a grown adult, that they can choose to use or not is worthy of the death penalty?

    Hope you support that when they do the same for steroids, nootropics, and P5P.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You are such an idiot, its amazing. We also lead the world in per capita income, per capita use of fossil fuels, etc. Things can always get significantly worse, and drug use would not go DOWN if it was legalized.
    Hard drug use would most likely go down if soft drugs were legalized. That way the people who are still functional in normal society never really come into contact with the black market. If you had to go to a dealer to buy beer, might you not also buy weed at the same time since you're already breaking the law? As is, you go to the liquor store and never come into contact with the black market. Not that all drug dealers have harder drugs but a lot certainly know where to get them.

    My preferred scenario, however, is everything be legalized because it keeps things out of the hands of kids, and I don't care if some crackhead destroys his body. I just don't want to see my money used on hassling him when there are real crimes going on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpfisher View Post
    Hard drug use would most likely go down if soft drugs were legalized. That way the people who are still functional in normal society never really come into contact with the black market. If you had to go to a dealer to buy beer, might you not also buy weed at the same time since you're already breaking the law? As is, you go to the liquor store and never come into contact with the black market. Not that all drug dealers have harder drugs but a lot certainly know where to get them.
    Maybe, but using Luther's "logic" the pricing + quality of legal drugs would be bad, so you'd still go to a dealer. Also I think a bit of the people would get jaded faster on the legal stuff, and then be looking for something more. Some portion wouldn't sure, but some portion still would.


    My preferred scenario, however, is everything be legalized because it keeps things out of the hands of kids, and I don't care if some crackhead destroys his body. I just don't want to see my money used on hassling him when there are real crimes going on.

    You mean like it keeps steroids out of the hands of kids? "tren" and superdrol and phera?


    And you should care about the crackhead destroying his body, cause he's also likely breaking into you car for the money to buy crack or perhaps mugging your mom, and collecting your tax dollars to pay for his section 8 housing and food stamps and welfare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    You don't think legal drugs would still have black market versions as soon as any restictions/taxes are placed on them? Now you'll just have to fight illegal versions over legsl versions. It'll just be a different fight.
    They probably would have "some" demand, but nothing on the scale the prohibition creates. Again, look at alcohol - you don't see a huge demand for 191 (95.5%) proof spirits despite the fact that most states don't allow it. In fact you don't even see that much demand for 151 (75.5%) proof relative to 80 (40%) proof spirits. Beer and wine are as popular and they don't get much stronger than 20%. Generally speaking, if you want to get drunk you just drink more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    Since there is no large scale, successful model that can argue your side and my argument can't be won by the same token it just comes down to arguing two opinions.
    Agreed to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Right, but alchohol was used for far longer, and was and is considered a part of daily life for many, both before + after (and during) prohibition. the use of most of those is far more recent, and isn't as culturally ingrained except for perhaps psychedelic mushrooms and a few other similar things that were in use by american indians and some other groups for religious observances.
    I'd say cannabis has numbers pretty close alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero V View Post
    if you put a .45 in the skull of every crack dealer, even if only suspected, drugs would be less of an issue. The war on drugs is the right thing to do. Its just they are doing it wrong, execute them on the spot. Or have public executions.
    This thinking is the problem. First, it doesn't solve the demand side of the issue and you won't ever completely solve that problem. When there's enough demand, people will step up to supply because at some point the benefits (sheer profit) will out weigh the risks. The drug war has made cocaine one of the most profitable commodities in history because of the smuggling required to get it to the demand side. As far as calling it the "right" thing to do, I guess that depends on how you look at it. I think in a free society one should be able to use whatever they want, and only be stopped when it hurts someone else. Meaning if you commit a crime while on drugs, then you will be punished, but using drugs in itself is not a crime. I think if you control potency, cost, and availability you'd see the crime associated with drugs go away. The next step then is education, and not this DARE propaganda BS, but real educated information on the risks and dangers.
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    I wouldnt mind if we had to lose PH's and Steroids in order to face a cleaner world. As for the demand, throw them in a padded room, with no aid, nothing but water and crackers as they go through withdrawal. Record it and show it in schools on a weekly basis "this weeks losers", etc.

    The general population is really incapable of making decisions. I mean look at what people have chosen to become of America. It is nothing but Porn, Drugs, Greed. That is because of too much freedom. America died 40 somethin years ago. Probably in the summer of 69....

    There is a reason throughout history a select few ruled. America and other counties figured education would help make the general populace capable. They were wrong,I am sorry a guy who does pot, gots to a titty bar, slams down more than 128 oz of alchohol a week, or thinks he is a playa really shouldnt be allowed to vote.

    Really a proper public sacrifice for "the greater good" would change the world. Sadly every individuals life is overvalued by themselves. I would sacrifice my life right now, in a heartbeat, if it would contribute. Sadly, short of starting a civil war I cant do much that would require my life. Being a cop doesnt work, you cant do enough, half the criminals walk. Being in the military is not justified to me because I hate the current government(i love and support military members though, just not for me) I would much rather work for a PMC and accomplish something when I pull the trigger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero V View Post
    I wouldnt mind if we had to lose PH's and Steroids in order to face a cleaner world. As for the demand, throw them in a padded room, with no aid, nothing but water and crackers as they go through withdrawal. Record it and show it in schools on a weekly basis "this weeks losers", etc.

    The general population is really incapable of making decisions. I mean look at what people have chosen to become of America. It is nothing but Porn, Drugs, Greed. That is because of too much freedom. America died 40 somethin years ago. Probably in the summer of 69....

    There is a reason throughout history a select few ruled. America and other counties figured education would help make the general populace capable. They were wrong,I am sorry a guy who does pot, gots to a titty bar, slams down more than 128 oz of alchohol a week, or thinks he is a playa really shouldnt be allowed to vote.
    Those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither.

    Thanks, Mr. Franklin.

    You are also incapable of determining for yourself what kind of books you can read, what TV shows you should watch, what clothes to wear (this uniform is fine, citizen), and what job you want.

    Welcome to Hell.
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    The "War on Drugs" really has no place in a "Free Republic". Of course, we are moving away from the free republic more and more every day. We are speeding right into an oligarchy, but that is a subject for another post.

    The idea of men being free on their own property, as long as they do no unjust harm to another person, is an American ideal. The idea that the state can come on your property, arrest you, and confiscate your belongings is not an American ideal.

    Now I understand the argument of "I don't want my tax money spent to support drug addicts". Well, your tax money is already spent supporting drug addicts. In Thomas Jefferson's America the idea of the government supporting another person is also an un American ideal.

    So the solution is to take several steps back to what this country used to be, and if that includes the right to get as high as you want, then so be it. Just respect my right not to give a **** when your health is ****ed, and you have nowhere to live. Oh, and if you come around my family while you are zonked out of your mind, I will exercise my right to **** your **** up with my vast collection of weaponry.

    When you look at this issue through a larger spectrum the benefits of a more free America far outweigh the "evils" of drug use.

    Even if you get away from "America the Free", and "From Freedom to Fascism" (a great flick) the benefits of legalizing drugs are still numerous and outweigh any potential cons*. The reason behind this is that some ideas are better than others,and no matter what, respecting the freedom of the individual is always the correct decision and will have the better outcome.

    * the benefits being the reduction of property crimes, muggings, the destruction of street gangs and drug cartels, the taxable income from marijuana, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither.

    Thanks, Mr. Franklin.

    You are also incapable of determining for yourself what kind of books you can read, what TV shows you should watch, what clothes to wear (this uniform is fine, citizen), and what job you want.

    Welcome to Hell.

    We are maybe 5 years from hell in this country. I mean if your gona legalize crack, you mind as well make it legal for me to shoot people right? All is fair, no?

    I like freedom, yes. But there is so much wrong with what freedom entitles people to today. I think freedom should be as it was in the early days. Most people dont deserve this freedom. Back then they respected themselves, and others for freedom. People had dignity, good hearts(at least a much higher % than today). You could trust people.

    Between the companies that are allowed to exist that do nothing more than scam, but they are legit and allowed by our laws...

    Our courts and jail system are a joke.

    College is becoming a joke anymore.

    Our country is a joke. I mean, poor people in countries not as well off are happier and enjoy their lives more than people in this country do. I have seen it before.

    A few nukes wouldnt hurt this country at all. It would do it some good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You are such an idiot, its amazing. We also lead the world in per capita income, per capita use of fossil fuels, etc. Things can always get significantly worse, and drug use would not go DOWN if it was legalized.
    We are not talking about per capita income or fossil fuel use genie-a$$ we are talking about drug use. It is already the highest rate in the world in the US so how could it get worse? Also,how do you know it would not go down if de-criminalized?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lutherblsstt View Post
    We are not talking about per capita income or fossil fuel use genie-a$$ we are talking about drug use. It is already the highest rate in the world in the US so how could it get worse? Also,how do you know it would not go down if de-criminalized?
    How can it get worse? by going up, the math is easy. Highest rate in the world is a meaningless phrase as by definition one country always has to have the highest, one country also has to have the lowest. Does that mean that magically it can't get higher because we're already number one? No.

    I don't know that it won't go down if de-criminalized, but there is no evidence that it will either.
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