One thing confuses me about the "stimus"

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  1. One thing confuses me about the "stimus"


    I keep hearing about "get credit flowing again" and "get the banks lending again"...



    ...isn't that what got us in the mess? (People getting leans the couldn't pay back, albeit home loans, credit cards, personal loans, etc.)

    That's like trying to put a fire out by adding more fuel!!


    (btw...I know there's more to it than the "credit crisis", I just don't see fixing a problem by adding to it)


  2. i agree
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  3. I believe the purpose is ti get the money back into the economy,..
    When the govt did the bailouts, that was the wrong way to do it, they should have given the money to taxpaying citizens, then the money would be recirculated. That's kinda what the stimulus package is supposed to do, get taxpayers spending again.
    I am no authority on this **** by the way,..
    Think training's hard,. try losing!

  4. Here's some more things...

    I just saw an Obama speech where he said we can't spend money if we don't have it.



    I didn't know we just had $790 billion laying around.

    And he said people spending would stimulate the economy.



    Didn't congress just shame the CEO's for their jets and the companies having the time in Vegas, Florida, ect.

    Well, jets cost money...people build them...people repair them...people fuel them...people fly them...people work at airports...ect

    The get togethers are the same...you spend at the hotels...you spend at the restuarants...you spend at entertainment..ect

    So wouldn't the spending be stimulating the economy? Wasn't that the purpose of the money?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by bigrobbierob View Post
    I keep hearing about "get credit flowing again" and "get the banks lending again"...



    ...isn't that what got us in the mess? (People getting leans the couldn't pay back, albeit home loans, credit cards, personal loans, etc.)

    That's like trying to put a fire out by adding more fuel!!


    (btw...I know there's more to it than the "credit crisis", I just don't see fixing a problem by adding to it)
    Economics works in an equilibrium. Truthfully, I think we will level out in due time, but the government and it's people want it done now, and what some might consider stupid ideas get implemented in attempt to correct things more quickly. It's sort of like the after-school special cliche` of a fat chick who starves herself, only to end up plowing down a triple fudge sundae a day or two later to gain more weight than when she started. Anyhow, with credits and bank loans, we are dealing with a lot inflation and interest rates.

    If you take a $100 loan from the bank, with an annual interest rate of 20%, you will pay them back $120 at the end of the year. The bank makes money; they are happy. You were able to spend money you didn't have all at once, you are happy.

    Now we factor in the inflation rate. You've paid back the $120 at the end of the year, but the inflation rate was 30%. What this means is the $100 you were loaned is now worth $130. The bank just lost $10. You're happy; you just got paid $10 to borrow $100. The bank is pissed, so they jack up the interest rates to stay on top. Now interest rates are high. This makes people less apt, or sometimes even unable to take out loans because of the large amount of interest they will have to pay in return.

    In the credit crisis scandal, "we give any loans, regardless of credit history", the interest was never paid on a lot of loans, which sort of inflated the US dollar. As I said earlier, when inflation rates increase, interest rates follow soon after. People stop taking out loans, and start saving their money. Less things are being bought, especially stuff that needs financing. Companies experiece a surplus in production, so they downsize. Now people are out of jobs. Less things are being made, less things are being bought, inflation is high, Real GDP gets kicked hard in the nuts. After 2 quarters of this economic decline, we call it a recession. People freak out, and the government tries to interfere with the natural flow of economics. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Giving poor people $300 is beyond my level of understanding, but some of us elected these guys into office and if it seems terrible, it makes you wonder if the other guy's plan is any different, any better, or any worse.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by bigrobbierob View Post
    I keep hearing about "get credit flowing again" and "get the banks lending again"...



    ...isn't that what got us in the mess? (People getting leans the couldn't pay back, albeit home loans, credit cards, personal loans, etc.)

    That's like trying to put a fire out by adding more fuel!!


    (btw...I know there's more to it than the "credit crisis", I just don't see fixing a problem by adding to it)

    Short response...

    No, what got us in the mess was reckless loans. Now, just like estrogen rebounds in the opposite direction after a cycle, the banks and loan agencies became too tight with their loans and causing even more people trouble. The idea of the stimulus regarding the loans is allow the right people to be able to borrow money and begin to even things out.
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    The idea of the stimulus regarding the loans is allow the right people to be able to borrow money and begin to even things out.
    Since when is it a "right" to borrow money?

  8. In case you didn't know, these "bailouts" and "stimulus" packages put our country over 10.7 trillion in debt, and thats just the government aspect. If you look at the entire economy, including stocks and bonds (which are debt) our system is pushing 100 trillion in debt.

    The basic problem is the people are not educated on how our system works. It is a business and investment system. Not an employee system. Free enterprise means we are to own and grow our own businesses, not work for someone else. With over 80% of the country either employees or by now completely unemployed, our wealth is going backwards. As an employee you will never actually see a "raise". How many people get over a 5% raise each year? And that only covers inflation. People must be taught how to compound their income, and make it residual.

    Success is not taught in schools or hardly anywhere else today, and that is our problem.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by bigrobbierob View Post
    Since when is it a "right" to borrow money?

    Not a "right" as in the constitution, but referring to the right people as in the "appropriate" people.
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    I think you misread your quoted post. Please re-read.
    Oops. Sorry. I did misread.

    My apologies to Copycat.

  11. It's all gravy
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    Short response...

    No, what got us in the mess was reckless loans. Now, just like estrogen rebounds in the opposite direction after a cycle, the banks and loan agencies became too tight with their loans and causing even more people trouble. The idea of the stimulus regarding the loans is allow the right people to be able to borrow money and begin to even things out.
    Good post!

    There are alot of responsible people who would like to buy a car, house etc. but lack the confidence in this environment....Responsible people buying things with credit keeps our economy rolling. The world needs confidence, time will tell if it works.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by briancogs888 View Post

    The basic problem is the people are not educated on how our system works. It is a business and investment system. Not an employee system. Free enterprise means we are to own and grow our own businesses, not work for someone else. With over 80% of the country either employees or by now completely unemployed, our wealth is going backwards. As an employee you will never actually see a "raise". How many people get over a 5% raise each year? And that only covers inflation. People must be taught how to compound their income, and make it residual.

    Success is not taught in schools or hardly anywhere else today, and that is our problem.

    If everyone owns their own business as you say.....who would work for us?
    Someone needs to be an employee!

    I'm not sure how $750B and $728B adds up to $10.7T?

  14. 10.7 Trillion is the estimated national debt after the stimulus package. Our government has been at a deficit for the last 40 years straight or something. There are businesses in this country that do millions and millions every year that have no employees, however not everyone will ever own their own business, or at least not everone will solely own a business. Becoming a business own requires startup capital, and although sometimes its next to nothing, it still takes money to make money. Plus, many people don't have the mentality to own a business.
  15. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by luclyluciano View Post
    Good post!

    There are alot of responsible people who would like to buy a car, house etc. but lack the confidence in this environment....Responsible people buying things with credit keeps our economy rolling. The world needs confidence, time will tell if it works.
    the stimulus package won't bring confidence as it is the usual washington morass of bs, 30 million dollars to preserve the habitat of some mouse doesn't provide confidence to anyone but the mouse, and Pelosi's re-election.

    Besides you put it there yourself responsible people lack confidence in this environment. and the reason they lack confidence is BECAUSE they are responsible.... The bs line about getting commercial credit flowing because some companies use credit lines for payroll just about drove me nuts. If you have to use credit to make payroll on a regular basis, better for you to give up already
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  16. including stocks and bonds (which are debt)
    Through the corporate method, investment in stock entails partial ownership of a company. You are actually buying and selling ownership of a portion of the companies net worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by briancogs888 View Post
    10.7 Trillion is the estimated national debt after the stimulus package. Our government has been at a deficit for the last 40 years straight or something.
    What is interest? Do you know how we have this national deficit, or to whom we owe this money to?

    There are businesses in this country that do millions and millions every year that have no employees
    Name some. Think to yourself what industries they belong to, when you are thinking of these examples.

    Becoming a business own requires startup capital, and although sometimes its next to nothing, it still takes money to make money.
    Most of the time, we are not selling pet rocks, though. You strike me as someone who's just finished reading a "get rich while working at home" book.

  17. I never said anything about interest, so I don't know what that question was. When expenses are greater than income, it's called a deficit. We have accumulated this, well, really, since the United States inception. The nation debt has increased every year since 1969. When you are buying and selling a part of a companies net worth, the company still is not owning that piece of the net worth. Therefor, the company is in debt to whoever owns that piece of the net worth. Some Trump or Kyosaki books would explain this to you much better than I can. In case you don't know, there is a business model that was developed in the '50s that allows individuals, to "endorse" for some major companies. These companies use what would be their advertising budget to pay people to drive volume thru their stores; giving these people their own endorsing business. I refer you to the book Prosumer Power. These businesses are not pyramid schemes, or panzi schemes, they are completely legal, as long as they are based on the compensation plan of one company in particular that the FTC deemed legal because it simply worked. Some of these companys have some of the highest quality products you can buy, and profit by billions of dollars a year, and pay their endorsers millions of that profit back. Now explain to everyone why a company that does billions and shares back millions, and provides you with a compensation plan in which you can make as much as you work to get, is such a bad company (of course, I'm not saying that all network or social marketing companies are great and truthful, because I know of some that have been shut down for making "outlandish claims").

  18. facts are facts

  19. Hmmm.

    I am nervous about the US spending that money.
    I am nervous it won't be effective enough.

    But, put this into perspective:

    fcnl.org/issues/item.php?item_id=3361&issue_id =18,Close to a trillion dollars for a war?

    Forget the debate whether those wars were right, wrong or whatever.

    Doesnt it make more sense to invest in our own country if you're going to spend money?

    Just saying.
    Not that I approve either admin spending money they dont have. It just seems to me hypocritical for republicans to blast dems for spending money in light of the turn of the last 8 yrs from surplus to deficit.

    Frankly, I think both sides should have played nicer on this. The 3 republicans who got their feet wet with this did some real good, got rid of some bs and added some infrastructure. Thats how it should work, both sides keeping each other in check and coming together for the best ideas.Not Pelosi and Reid hogging the details and house repubs sitting on their hands.

    Im starting believe there are no centrists left and thats a shame, because neither one of these political camps has the answers at all!

  20. Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    I am nervous about the US spending that money.
    This was the only part I could realistically agree with.
  21. Never enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by slow-mun View Post
    This was the only part I could realistically agree with.
    well, I think this piece too

    Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    Im starting believe there are no centrists left and thats a shame, because neither one of these political camps has the answers at all!
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  22. So you guys believe 700 bil in iraq was a better investment than investing 700 billion dollars here?

    Don't get me wrong, im not all crazy "anti iraq", I just dont think it was wise to start the second war before figuring out how the first one was going to be paid for?
    Spending money you dont have is hardly ever a wise choice.

    And dont get me wrong about this:
    most people think the stimulus will be great or it will fail miserably.
    I believe the least dramtic of things would happen.
    It will help, but only a little bit.
    The economy wont fix itself, but this wont work miracles.

    I have a bigger problem with the banking bailout than this, despite all the pork the stim has.

    I must say, that is awesome to see so many American companies one one board.
    This is one industry that I cant see getting overun by foreign competitors (I hope!)

    Perhaps there should be an "Economic Stimulants Package". Maybe we can all worker longer days like the Japenese to get ourselves outta this lol!
  23. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    So you guys believe 700 bil in iraq was a better investment than investing 700 billion dollars here?
    yep. the estimates of the more or less DIRECT costs of the 9/11 attack was around $640 billion. I'm glad we spent the next installment of that making sure we weren't attacked on our soil again.

    An additional growth of government as the democrats want and are using the stimulus bill partially for is not in our best interests. The government already eats more than 20% of the GDP to provide less than 18% of the workforce. Remember that the 20% it eats isn't used for anything resembling growth unlike a private or publicly held company. The larger the federal spending grows as a % of GDP, the slower our economy can grow.
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  24. Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    So you guys believe 700 bil in iraq was a better investment than investing 700 billion dollars here?

    Don't get me wrong, im not all crazy "anti iraq", I just dont think it was wise to start the second war before figuring out how the first one was going to be paid for?
    Spending money you dont have is hardly ever a wise choice.

    And dont get me wrong about this:
    most people think the stimulus will be great or it will fail miserably.
    I believe the least dramtic of things would happen.
    It will help, but only a little bit.
    The economy wont fix itself, but this wont work miracles.

    I have a bigger problem with the banking bailout than this, despite all the pork the stim has.

    I must say, that is awesome to see so many American companies one one board.
    This is one industry that I cant see getting overun by foreign competitors (I hope!)

    Perhaps there should be an "Economic Stimulants Package". Maybe we can all worker longer days like the Japenese to get ourselves outta this lol!
    1st bold - did you really mean won't? The economy will fix itself, one way or another it will.
    2nd bold - Maybe you worded it wron, but it is a stimulus package, oh wait, I think I see what you mean.
    3rd bold - The japanese are in a worse slump than we are, so is europe. Everyone talks about this starting in the housing industry/banking industry and with it's lending habits etc, but really (a big portion it very well may be) is still only one portion of the problem. The worlds economy is so intertwined these days that even other continents economic problems have the ability to effect another. Especially if the countries and so forth are closely connected.

    As far as the Iraq war, well, man that's a touchy and complicated subject. However, having been over there and having many, many Iraqi's come to me and my teammates and tell us how glad they are for us to help them, even with the whole insurgency I still believe we did a good thing. I won't talk about how well things were always handled, because I will concede that things def could have been done different or better, but in 2003 when Iraqi's came to me and pulled a cross out from under their shirt and thanked me because they had always lived in fear I feel it's a positive. Even in recent deployments when I'm thanked because they now have their own business running because they can unlike before because they were not the right sect i.e. sunni/shia etc. I feel we did right. When I flew in on a mission to retrieve an iraqi from an insurgent torture house with all 4 extremities broken because he voted and was in support of democracy, I feel we've done right.

    Ok, I'll just stop there, because that was prolly too much for this thread.
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  25. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    yep. the estimates of the more or less DIRECT costs of the 9/11 attack was around $640 billion. I'm glad we spent the next installment of that making sure we weren't attacked on our soil again.
    Going after the Taliban and and Bin Laden...great investment.
    Putting troops in Iraq maybe does make us a little more secure from the standpoint that american targets are more accessable now, in the mideast. They dont have to attack us here.
    But Al Qaeda has grown in numbers since our precensce there...perhaps making them a bigger eventual threat.

    But Saddam was an Evil MF. And Im glad hes gone. I just think it was the right war at the wrong time and for the wrong advertised reasons. And before the job was done in Afghanistan. Saddam had no part in 911. Its like blowing up Iran because you're pissed Kim Jong Il tested a missile. Im still suprised people believe Iraq had something to do with 911.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    An additional growth of government as the democrats want and are using the stimulus bill partially for is not in our best interests. The government already eats more than 20% of the GDP to provide less than 18% of the workforce. Remember that the 20% it eats isn't used for anything resembling growth unlike a private or publicly held company. The larger the federal spending grows as a % of GDP, the slower our economy can grow.

    This I can agree w to an extent. But I dont think the problems will fix themselves and the only alternative idea you get from house reps are "more tax cuts" or of course do nothing. I dont think either one of those is a better idea.
  26. Never enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    Going after the Taliban and and Bin Laden...great investment.
    Putting troops in Iraq maybe does make us a little more secure from the standpoint that american targets are more accessable now, in the mideast. They dont have to attack us here.
    But Al Qaeda has grown in numbers since our precensce there...perhaps making them a bigger eventual threat.

    But Saddam was an Evil MF. And Im glad hes gone. I just think it was the right war at the wrong time and for the wrong advertised reasons. And before the job was done in Afghanistan. Saddam had no part in 911. Its like blowing up Iran because you're pissed Kim Jong Il tested a missile. Im still suprised people believe Iraq had something to do with 911.
    Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time even the UN security council BELIEVED that Sadam was building weapons of mass destruction. The fact that the UN took no action for over 10 years of Saddam ignoring their restrictions (well, other than sending him letters), and many countries refused to join us doesn't change that fact. At the time, we operated with the same intelligence as anyone else. Saddam was an unstable influence in that region and given our dependence on foreign oil, I feel it was quite reasonable at the time.



    Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    This I can agree w to an extent. But I dont think the problems will fix themselves and the only alternative idea you get from house reps are "more tax cuts" or of course do nothing. I dont think either one of those is a better idea.
    Tax cuts to businesses would create far more jobs far faster than this package will. Here's some of what my childrens future income is being pissed away on instead

    $50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts
    $380 million in the Senate bill for the Women, Infants and Children program
    $300 million for grants to combat violence against women
    $2 billion for federal child-care block grants
    $6 billion for university building projects
    $15 billion for boosting Pell Grant college scholarships
    $4 billion for job-training programs, including $1.2 billion for “youths” up to the age of 24
    $1 billion for community-development block grants
    $4.2 billion for “neighborhood stabilization activities”
    $650 million for digital-TV coupons; $90 million to educate “vulnerable populations”
    $30 million for Pelosi's endangered mouse

    Do those look like they are crafted to create jobs? economic stimulus? not at all
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  27. Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    1st bold - did you really mean won't? The economy will fix itself, one way or another it will.
    2nd bold - Maybe you worded it wron, but it is a stimulus package, oh wait, I think I see what you mean.
    3rd bold - The japanese are in a worse slump than we are, so is europe. Everyone talks about this starting in the housing industry/banking industry and with it's lending habits etc, but really (a big portion it very well may be) is still only one portion of the problem. The worlds economy is so intertwined these days that even other continents economic problems have the ability to effect another. Especially if the countries and so forth are closely connected.

    As far as the Iraq war, well, man that's a touchy and complicated subject. However, having been over there and having many, many Iraqi's come to me and my teammates and tell us how glad they are for us to help them, even with the whole insurgency I still believe we did a good thing. I won't talk about how well things were always handled, because I will concede that things def could have been done different or better, but in 2003 when Iraqi's came to me and pulled a cross out from under their shirt and thanked me because they had always lived in fear I feel it's a positive. Even in recent deployments when I'm thanked because they now have their own business running because they can unlike before because they were not the right sect i.e. sunni/shia etc. I feel we did right. When I flew in on a mission to retrieve an iraqi from an insurgent torture house with all 4 extremities broken because he voted and was in support of democracy, I feel we've done right.

    Ok, I'll just stop there, because that was prolly too much for this thread.
    Yeah, Im not confident it can rebound on its own...or at least when it does there wont be much american owned business left.

    And yeah, the stimulants thing was a joke! As well as the japanese workday. I think that japan being in a slump could mean a good thing for us if we do bounce back becaseu they've held such an edge on us for so long...im so sick of japanese made ****!

    I salute you for serving over there! Got a buddy and my wife's brother in law over there too. I think for the Iraqi people, it was a great thing the US did. And the troops did an amazing job.
    And I think from that standpoint Bush is right about history eventually vindicating him. What I disagree with, is that it should have been sold on more hard evidence and less as a response to 911. And I think Afghanistan should have been sorted first. I think if it was sold the right way, we could have gotten more global support. But whats done is done.
  28. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    wait, heres some more

    $150 million for the Smithsonian
    $34 million to renovate the Department of Commerce headquarters
    $500 million for improvement projects for National Institutes of Health facilities
    $44 million for repairs to Department of Agriculture headquarters
    $350 million for Agriculture Department computers
    $88 million to help move the Public Health Service into a new building
    $448 million for constructing a new Homeland Security Department headquarters
    $600 million to convert the federal auto fleet to hybrids
    $450 million for NASA (carve-out for “climate-research missions”)
    $600 million for NOAA (carve-out for “climate modeling”)
    $1 billion for the Census Bureau
    $89 billion for Medicaid
    $30 billion for COBRA insurance extension
    $36 billion for expanded unemployment benefits
    $20 billion for food stamps
    $4.5 billion for U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
    $850 million for Amtrak
    $87 million for a polar icebreaking ship
    $1.7 billion for the National Park System
    $55 million for Historic Preservation Fund
    $7.6 billion for “rural community advancement programs”
    $150 million for agricultural-commodity purchases
    $150 million for “producers of livestock, honeybees, and farm-raised fish”
    $2 billion for renewable-energy research ($400 million for global-warming research)
    $2 billion for a “clean coal” power plant in Illinois
    $6.2 billion for the Weatherization Assistance Program
    $3.5 billion for energy-efficiency and conservation block grants
    $3.4 billion for the State Energy Program
    $200 million for state and local electric-transport projects
    $300 million for energy-efficient-appliance rebate programs
    $400 million for hybrid cars for state and local governments
    $1 billion for the manufacturing of advanced batteries
    $1.5 billion for green-technology loan guarantees
    $8 billion for innovative-technology loan-guarantee program
    $2.4 billion for carbon-capture demonstration projects
    $4.5 billion for electricity grid

    $79 billion for State Fiscal Stabilization Fund

    So as per the usual with democrats, reward the irresponsible. The states that treated rising home values as if they won the lottery themselves and just continued to expand their budgets further and further rather than building any reserves get more than 10% of the stimulus. hooray
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  29. Never enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    Yeah, Im not confident it can rebound on its own...or at least when it does there wont be much american owned business left.
    but it will. I've seen it worse than this in the last 30 years, I don't know why everyone is so "chicken little" about it. these things are cyclical in nature.

    There would be plenty of american owned businesses if people didn't expect to have a manufacturing job that paid better than a real estate lawyer like the UAW does.
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